BajaNomad - The palm tree is going two feet under water

Cliffy likes to blather on pretending he is knowledgeable. I'm sure he's never seen anyone selllng 10 mangoes for a penny.

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy

Again all the climate N&zis do is pontificate without offering real solutions to real problems from the stance they take.
Address the problems noted rather than bloviate We're listening.

What problems, Cliffy? You keep telling us there is no climate change problem because "the climate has always changed". And helpfully tell us the sun doesn't shine at night, just in case someone wasn't aware of that. (Actually it does in the Arctic part of the year)

All you ever do is deny the problem, and give reasons why any and all proposed solutions won't work. Your "solutions" are to maintain the status quo.

Have you ever been to Dakar and seen the poverty there like I have?
Have you ever been to Guadalcanal and seen 6 year old kids selling anything they can just to survive (10 mangos for a penny) like I have?
Have you ever been to Zimbabwe and seen the mud huts that tribes live in like I have?
Have you ever been to South Africa and seen the "Black Areas" out in the middle of nowhere over thousands of acres, 1 family to 10 acres with a government hut (10X10) and NO electricity and no sewer system like I have?

NOTHING in Mexico is as bad as many areas around the world. NO ONE in the USA no matter how bad their housing is has any idea of what real poverty and slums really are on the world scale.

And they are supposed to build THEIR electricity grid on renewables?
Some pampered people need to wake up and smell the roses around the world

Stop oil? Stop fossil fuels? The world can not survive without dino juice period!
Even Germany sees the folly in going with wind now.

Do I presume that you never watched the last video I posted on bad data to support the climate change argument? Or is it just so easy to deny that possibility? That which questions the current thinking.
Just how would (does) someone get funding for an academic study to investigate the accuracy of the current climate mantra?
Just how much money is involved in the current climate mantra?
Follow the money.

Have a difference of opinion and all they can do is ostracize.
Yet questioning the outcome of any paper or position is (was) the foundation of the Scientific Method- but no more.

Given the recent retractions to medical scientific papers and the realization of fraud on the part of several worshiped academics published papers maybe questioning the status quo on climate might be a good thing rather than submit blindly to the cornucopia of noise from the climate crowd.

Also stop and think who is pushing the mantra of climate change and WHY ?
Do we really think they are being altruistic to save the world or is it coming from a cabal of independent, non-elected, self-important people who have a narcissistic regard for themselves and want to govern the world.
One only has to look at the WHO and the WEF to see the trajectory of what they want to do on a world scale - unelected bureaucrats one and all.

AKgringo - 5-8-2024 at 10:08 AM

Robbing Peter to pay Paul will always have the support of Paul!

RFClark - 5-8-2024 at 12:25 PM

Lenin may be gone but his “Полезные дураки” are still here posting on the internet!

None of them are even curious why you can’t get permits to thin forests, clear roadside brush or clear transmission right of ways! They also don’t understand the wildfire based ecology west of the Mississippi and south into Mexico.

surabi - 5-9-2024 at 12:08 PM

Lenin? Who has exactly what to do with climate change or anyone here?

And what makes you think you know what other people are curious about or understand?

All you can come up with are insults to others' intelligence and somehow befuddling those who are concerned about climate change with communism?

JZ - 5-9-2024 at 12:14 PM

The climate crisis is the biggest grift of the last 50 years. It's obvious to any reasonable person.

It's all about $, power, and votes. I understand younger, naive people being confused. But if you've been around the block a few times there are no excuses.

RFClark - 5-9-2024 at 12:24 PM

So why didn’t you post a comment about this!

https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/04/11/1091087/the-inad...

MIT a “Rightwing Institution”?

[Edited on 5-9-2024 by RFClark]

JZ - 5-9-2024 at 12:30 PM

These people have lost their minds. Gigantic windbags. I can't take any of them seriously.

RFClark - 5-9-2024 at 12:46 PM

Useful Fools!

surabi - 5-9-2024 at 12:47 PM

You don't take anything seriously that doesn't conform to and bolster your preconceived opinions.

RFClark - 5-9-2024 at 12:55 PM

Not sure where you’re going with this.

The Science is in regarding Clean Air contributing 38% to the increase in the increase in temperatures. If you have a problem with MIT’s paper feel free to take it up with them!

Clearer air, fewer clouds, more heating seems pretty simple. The ‘90s clean air movement could or should have know the danger at the time! I don’t remember hearing a single word. Perhaps you can post some!

And then there is Sudbury! The former world’s Largest SO2 polluter! Still going strong though no longer the world’s largest but still polluting!

[Edited on 5-9-2024 by RFClark]

SFandH - 5-9-2024 at 04:16 PM

The Science is in regarding Clean Air contributing 38% to the increase in the increase in temperatures.

Are you suggesting we should keep polluting the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels because clean air lets energy in?

If 38% of the temperature rise is due to taking out the dirt, isn't 62% due to greenhouse gases?

Of course, it's a good idea to replace fossil fuels with renewables, even though there is a side effect of clean air.

[Edited on 5-9-2024 by SFandH]

RFClark - 5-9-2024 at 05:33 PM

SF&H,

No, I suggest that you read the MIT report. There is a proposal in it that accomplishes both goals. That said the report states that the percentage is higher than 38% as new stricter emission standards are now in place.

https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/radiative-forcing

The temperature rate of increase per decade prior to 1982 was .11F after 1982 it jumped to .36F. If you subtract the help clean air adds the rate would be .21F per decade.

There is the issue of what did the group pushing the Clean Air Bills know and when did they know it!

Nothing else proposed makes as much of a difference!

https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/04/11/1091087/the-inad...

[Edited on 5-10-2024 by RFClark]

JZ - 5-14-2024 at 08:46 PM

:lol:

Washington Post: Take Cold Showers to Save the Planet
Why you should embrace using cold water, almost all the time (shower, laundry, dishes)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2024/05/11/...

[Edited on 5-15-2024 by JZ]

RFClark - 5-14-2024 at 11:38 PM

JZ,

Want to bet that the hot water in the executive bath rooms at WaPo work just fine?

mtgoat666 - 5-15-2024 at 06:59 AM

Daily Cold shower or plunge is good for you.
https://www.healthline.com/health/cold-shower-benefits

[Edited on 5-15-2024 by mtgoat666]

AKgringo - 5-15-2024 at 07:51 AM

If the Post really wants to make a difference, they could keep the hot water and give up some air-conditioning.

surabi - 5-15-2024 at 09:35 AM

How about people taking 8 minute hot showers instead of 20 minutes? How about turning the AC off when no one is home instead of leaving it blasting all day? How about not flushing the toilet to get rid of a little tinkle?

Proposing either/or solutions is unnecessary and makes people resistant- if humans were just less entitled and self-indulgent with resources, that would go a long way towards less pollution and waste of resources.

[Edited on 5-15-2024 by surabi]

JZ - 5-15-2024 at 11:24 AM

How about people taking 8 minute hot showers instead of 20 minutes? How about turning the AC off when no one is home instead of leaving it blasting all day? How about not flushing the toilet to get rid of a little tinkle?

Proposing either/or solutions is unnecessary and makes people resistant- if humans were just less entitled and self-indulgent with resources, that would go a long way towards less pollution and waste of resources.

[Edited on 5-15-2024 by surabi]

Zuckerberg has been one of the biggest Climate Crisis alarmists. Well, well, well, look at his brand new toy. Take it up with him and ppl of his ilk before you come after the common person with your self-indulgent finger pointing.

[Edited on 5-15-2024 by JZ]

surabi - 5-15-2024 at 02:01 PM

Your post indicates that you entirely missed my point about "either/or". It isn't a matter of "rich people should curb their consumption before the average person does"- everyone needs to, including the rich.

Using the excuse "well, look at Zuckerberg", just seems like a lame way to justify not doing one's part.

Lee - 5-15-2024 at 02:41 PM

Lame.

Clark likes to point out China and India as bigger polluters so let's not point fingers.

Lay blame, quote NY Post, troll. Repeat.

Tioloco - 5-15-2024 at 04:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lee

Lame.

Clark likes to point out China and India as bigger polluters so let's not point fingers.

Lay blame, quote NY Post, troll. Repeat.

Ok Lee, lets make believe that China and India and everyone else is just one big happy family of ours. And continue to think that the hypocrisy of the "climate change promoters" doesnt exist.

Meanwhile, anyone with a brain can tell you that the sea level rise and fall is not a threat to civilization. Take a deep breath and have a cold Pacifico under the palm tree.

JZ - 5-15-2024 at 04:06 PM

10% (US and a few other Western Countries) of the world shouldn't be charged with trying to save the planet.

Especially, when the wealthiest of those 10% create 40%+ of the pollution and do nothing to lower their carbon footprints except lecture the rest of us.

[Edited on 5-15-2024 by JZ]

RFClark - 5-15-2024 at 04:10 PM

How about letting your gray water go back into the same ground that it was pumped out of by solar after it waters the yard? How about running your AC off of solar not CFI so it doesn’t mater? How about running your car off of solar so all anyone can b-tch about is tire wear?

How about living up to the fact that 40% of the current temperature rise is the direct result of ill conceived geo engineering by the clean air no matter what crowd?

Tioloco - 5-15-2024 at 04:22 PM

How about letting your gray water go back into the same ground that it was pumped out of by solar after it waters the yard? How about running your AC off of solar not CFI so it doesn’t mater? How about running your car off of solar so all anyone can b-tch about is tire wear?

How about living up to the fact that 40% of the current temperature rise is the direct result of ill conceived geo engineering by the clean air no matter what crowd?

Also important to note that solar panels generate heat as do the A/C compressors and components. Drive thru southern Arizona and take note of the solar farms. Note how much warmer the area around them is than the surrounding desert.

Desert cities have more and more asphalt and concrete which directly cause a higher heat absorption than the dirt they replaced. Building codes have been adopted to eliminate dust particles from dirt roads and alley ways thru mandated paving by developers.

The left hand and the right hand of our government do not communicate when it comes to any of this.

As for water, it is all in a closed system. We arent gaining or losing any water from the planet no matter how long people stand in the shower singing their favorite solo.

RFClark - 5-15-2024 at 04:24 PM

Exactly!

Cliffy - 5-16-2024 at 08:26 AM

Save the world?
Please tell me how it makes sense for the US and Europe to go green (and pay the bill to boot) when it won't make a dent in the total world's pollution because the rest of the world will not comply!

When in fact given the rest of the world's growth in dino juice power any "gain" from the US and EU will be overtaken by the rest of the world's growth in emissions a couple years.

Now if you can get those polluters to sign on then you'll make progress. But each step forward has a concomitant detraction (i.e., cleaner air means higher temps due to more insolation received).

Go electric cars? Means more mining with heavy machinery and pollution thereof. Is there enough minerals to build all those batteries? What do you do with them when they die? Going to mine with electric dozers and shovels? Think again.

Go wind? What do you do with old windmill blades? Solve that one
I'll go all in if someone can find reliable information of the efficiency of any wind farm. It can't be done. Those stats aren't allowed outside the Board Room. I've looked for 10 years. Find me the day to day stats of generation capacity of individual windmills covering a years time period and I'll start to change my mind if it shows an efficient operation.

Trains? Are you suggesting we use battery powered long haul train engines to move the worlds commerce? Think again. The physics just aren't there.

World sea shipping? Are we going to move 1.000 foot long container ships by battery power? Think again.

The world can not operate without dino juice so get used to it.
Stop din juice and you WILL kill the world.

surabi - 5-16-2024 at 07:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco

As for water, it is all in a closed system. We arent gaining or losing any water from the planet no matter how long people stand in the shower singing their favorite solo.

My point about not taking 20 minute showers wasn't about how much water there is on the planet. It's about being conscious that there are others who rely on the same resources you do.
The municipal wells in my town are almost dry, and this is the case in many places in Mexico and elsewhere on the planet. Just because there is water somewhere on the planet doesn't mean it's accessible.

Every person who wastes water or indulges themselves in using more than necessary when water is scarce means someone else in the area who draws from the same source doesn't have water.

[Edited on 5-17-2024 by surabi]

surabi - 5-21-2024 at 09:46 PM

Howler monkeys falling dead and dying ffrom heat stroke and dehydration in Tabasco.
47°C in Ciudad Victoria.

But keep denying there's a climate crisis, folks.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Internationa...

[Edited on 5-22-2024 by surabi]

JZ - 5-21-2024 at 10:05 PM

Howler monkeys falling dead and dying ffrom heat stroke and dehydration in Tabasco.
47°C in Ciudad Victoria.

But keep denying there's a climate crisis, folks.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Internationa...

[Edited on 5-22-2024 by surabi]

How could you be 2000 posts into this thread and not see that from the begging people say the climate is changing. That is not where the discussion is. :light:

Cliffy - 5-22-2024 at 05:43 AM

With the same extrapolation the dinosaurs died out because of a worldwide "climate crisis" caused by a meteor.

All a natural phenomenon in the evolution of the earth from which the earth recovered on its own!

Man is a natural phenomenon in the evolution of the earth.

BTW, as to the recovery potential of the world ecosystem- one only has to look at the Bikini Atoll (for those who remember or even refer to history) and how it has fully recovered from the atomic bomb testing done there 50 years ago. It was a nuclear waste land that has now recovered.

The earth's ability to heal itself is phenomenal.
I am in no way advocating the wasting of natural resources but the fear that we are "Killing the Earth" to our demise if just folly.

The fear mongering is only supporting a financial industry and being driven by the same financial industry.

mtgoat666 - 5-22-2024 at 11:52 AM

I like Li batteries, but they really need some eggheads to come up with a better fire suppression method for combustible metals…

Battery fire in Otay Mesa smoldering for a sixth day

OTAY MESA — A battery fire at an energy storage facility in Otay Mesa continued to smolder Tuesday, leaving firefighters contending with the blaze for a sixth straight day.
“This is a dynamic situation, dealing with lithium-ion batteries, so we are treating it very carefully,” said Cal Fire Capt. Mike Cornette. “We’re being very cautious.”

Evacuation orders and warnings are in effect within several hundred feet of the 250-megawatt Gateway Energy Storage Facility, located in an industrial park on the 600 block of Camino de la Fuente. But Cornette said the fire has not reached the level of posing a threat to lives in the area.

###

This goat suspects that the street name and former land ownership has cursed the land… land associated with Rocky de la Fuente is potentially cursed with bad juju…

surabi - 5-22-2024 at 12:17 PM

But keep denying there's a climate crisis, folks.

[/rquote]

How could you be 2000 posts into this thread and not see that from the begging people say the climate is changing. That is not where the discussion is. :light:

I didn't say that people are denying that the climate is changing, did I? I said they are denying that it's a crisis.

All you have to do is read Cliffy's post right below yours to see a prime example of that.

LI batteries under water

AKgringo - 5-22-2024 at 12:17 PM

Here is a clip about several EVs that were dunked in salt water; https://www.autoblog.com/2023/11/16/watch-as-submerged-tesla...

Cliffy - 5-25-2024 at 03:16 PM

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for what?

https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/mailboxes/@.id==VjN-tu7GB-...

AKgringo - 5-25-2024 at 03:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for what?

https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/mailboxes/@.id==VjN-tu7GB-...

That link doesn't work for me!

mtgoat666 - 5-25-2024 at 03:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo

Here is a clip about several EVs that were dunked in salt water

Dunking any car in salt water is death sentence. Doesnt matter whether electric motors or IC motors.

Cliffy - 5-25-2024 at 04:08 PM

OK I'll try again

Cliffy - 5-25-2024 at 04:51 PM

Go to 2:30 Long way around the short clip I had

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxF_rrJUlSU&t=33s

surfhat - 5-26-2024 at 10:34 AM

Nice try,sort of.

I was able to put up with the first couple of minutes of Kennedy showing what a burro he is by playing the good ole boy crap that he always does.

Same old, same old, every time with this fool who graduated as a summa cum laude and shows all that his earned degree was wasted on someone who plays the good old country boy every time.

His speel was old and out of date years ago. Why would anyone who shows he once had the intelligence to earn the top of his class now choose to lower himself to a simple county boy image?

Hypocrisy comes to mind. He has the smarts, no doubt, but chooses to portray a simpleton country boy image. ????

Most of the time I resist posting on Nomad these days due to the politicization, but there are times when I become a glutton for the abuse I know is surely coming.

One thing we all can be together on without a doubt, even in the current climate, is the fallen in defense of our nation deserve to be honored by us all.

My certainty in this deserved respect for those who gave their all has never wavered, right, center?, or left.

surabi - 5-26-2024 at 11:51 AM

There are a lot of those folks these days who try to portray an image that is completely at odds with who they really are. All those millennial dot com billionnaires like Zuckerberg, Brian Chesky (CEO of Airbnb), Jeff Bezos, etc. They try to act like they are aw shucks regular guys, in their jeans and skateboarding shoes, who care about people and the planet, but they are just a bunch of greedy billionaires whose business decisions only serve to enrich themselves.

Cliffy - 5-26-2024 at 02:08 PM

I find it interesting that the theme of my post was how the Under Secretary couldn't or wouldn't answer the question-

"If we spend this 50 TRILLION $$$$ how much would that lower the earths climate temperature"

and yet the only response here is to attack the guy asking the question and NOT the guy on the hot seat being unwilling to provide the answer.
I WONDER HOW COME ON BOTH POINTS?

The answer is obvious that he didn't want to admit that unless the entire world jumps in with both feet to go carbon neutral (and spend many times 50 trillion $$$) what WE accomplish buy spending 50 TRILLION DOLLARs WILL ACCOMPLISH NOTHING ON THE WORLD STAGE! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN THE LONG RUN!

The attempt at redirecting the conversation is all one side can do when faced with facts backed by Physics.

surfhat - 5-27-2024 at 01:09 PM

If we all could consider the future we are leaving for the generations to come maybe ..........

That is a big if. Too big an if for some.

Someone has to led the way. Who better than the USA? Just because China and India are lacking and dealing with billions of their own citizens, is no reason for us not to pursue every avenue to preserve what Mother Nature has bestowed upon us.

Kennedy is a real piece of work. You could have found a better representative to bring into your post than that piece of wasted space.

Who do you think will get the blame down the road? Those who did everything they can for our Mother while they are here, or those who fall back to the premise that China and India are not helping and give up?

I guess I still consider America exceptional, for the time being while our democracy still exists. Barely. The threat is all too real and scary as all get out.

surabi - 5-27-2024 at 03:39 PM

Exactly, surfhat. All change happens because someone started it. If we never changed the way we do things because others may not, we would still be living in the stone age.

Leading by example is crucial. On an individual level, that manifests as peer pressure, which leads to people not wanting to appear like jerks when the rest of their community, work place, etc, supports something which would be of benefit to all.

I remember a post on this forum years ago from a woman who had a neighbor across the street whose yard was filled with garbage, that would blow across into her own yard daily. She tried talking to the homeowner's grown daughter, who worked at the local corner store, telling her to ask her mom if she could come over and volunteer to clean up that yard, or pay someone of her mom's choosing to do so. The answer from the mom was no.

The poster finally got so fed up with picking up the blown-over garbage every day she took a photo of the neighbor's yard, with a caption in Spanish and English saying "Do we really want our neighborhood to look like this?" and posted it on the telephone poles.
She came out the next morning to find the yard across the street totally cleaned up.

As more and more countries get on board with climate change initiatives, those that don't will start to get onboard, because it will look shameful not to. Not to mention the entire planet is affected by climate change, so a country's own citizens will be pushing for it.

Cliffy's attitude is like everyone on one's block having their front yards look like trash heaps, full of junked cars, discarded furniture, dog chit and garbage just because Joe down the block won't clean up his mess.

mtgoat666 - 5-27-2024 at 04:13 PM

Americans are addicted to oil, oil companies are pushers of a drug.
Politicians are owned by big oil.
Big oil corporate management only looks at near term, how to maximize their profit in next quarter, next year and in some cases the next decade. Big oil does not care about your offspring’s future 100 years from now.
Big oil and the politicians owned by big oil have brainwashed cliffy and his ilk.
Cliffy is just repeating big oil talking points, and big oil is not anyone’s friend.
Cliffy is a brainwashed pawn.

[Edited on 5-27-2024 by mtgoat666]

Cliffy - 5-27-2024 at 08:10 PM

Its always interesting when the other side only has personal attacks to spew when they run out of tangible counter arguments

When you have nothing else to debate you attack the messenger.
Great way to make friends and influence people (Dale Carnegie) and
show the depth of your counter argument.

If we go back we see that I mostly have referred to the hysterical "the sky is falling " mantra and NOT that conservation is in itself a folly.

I have also said I am for not wasting the earths resources but with the caveat of ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING rather than patting ones self on the back and saying - "GEE look at me I supported this or that but it really didn't do anything of value.

Find something that actually can show a net benefit to the world on the climate front and I'm all for it but to want to spend $50 TRILLION on something that will have absolutely no net affect on the earth and I draw the line.

Come up with some answers to just WHO is going to pay for that folly? Seems we are already printing money as fast as we can with the current spending in place and the inflation rate shows it.
Should we just print the $50 TRILLION and give it to whom ever says they have the answer?

You worry about the future for your offspring what about their financial future with all the deficit spending? No matter how well try to clean up our foot print if it all goes into financial collapse in 30 years what have we left our offspring with?

And yes I worked for Mobil Oil for a short time many decades ago and I know just how greedy they are but that doesn't negate the fact that the world will need dino juice for many decades just to survive in many countries around the world. Its a fact of life just as its a fact of life that the world is not coming to an end any time soon.

Work diligently where we can to lower our footprint but do it in a fiscally responsible way WITH THE CONCURRENCE OF THE GOVERNED and not by mandate. It all comes down to making it an economically viable alternative to what is available today. The market place will flock to a better idea but mandated ideas always come up short to their proposed mantra.

mtgoat666 - 5-28-2024 at 10:13 AM

Would you rather listen to Bill Walton or big oil?

“I love my bike, I love San Diego and I love solar power." Bill Walton often said.

Walton passed away last week.

He often rode in Baja bike rides like Rosarito-Ensenada and Tecate-Ensenada.

Bill Walton Loves EVs - NBA Superstar Interview - National Drive Electric Week, San Diego (2019) https://youtu.be/Oj2w6YhZayA

What's not to love about EVs, bicycling, solar power and san diego?

[Edited on 5-28-2024 by mtgoat666]

surabi - 5-28-2024 at 11:10 AM

"You worry about the future for your offspring what about their financial future with all the deficit spending? No matter how well try to clean up our foot print if it all goes into financial collapse in 30 years what have we left our offspring with?"

Oh, so "the sky is falling" rhetoric is fine when it comes to money, but not the climate.

I can assure you that if we don't manage to find solutions quickly, finances will not be a major consideration for my kids and grandkids in 30 years. They will just be trying to survive extreme heat and lack of water, if they can survive at all.

Humans and animals are dying already from the heat.

[Edited on 5-28-2024 by surabi]

surabi - 5-28-2024 at 11:34 AM

"A majority of U.S. voters support civil lawsuits against fossil fuel companies for their role in creating the climate crisis, while roughly half support criminal charges, a new poll from Data for Progress found.

The poll results, released Tuesday, indicate support for the dozens of civil cases against Big Oil currently in U.S. courts, many of which were brought by municipalities or states. In a sample of over 1,000 respondents, 62% of likely voters said that they supported legal accountability for oil and gas companies for "their contributions to climate change," including 84% of Democrats and 40% of Republicans."

oxxo - 5-28-2024 at 06:12 PM

Well, I've been away for a while, that's for sure.

BRIEFLY, although I've been a member of BN since 2006, my last post here was over 8 years ago, and most of my friends, like @BajaJudy, no longer post (I hope she's okay). I've had some significant health issues to contend with over those 8 years, but I'm patched up and doing fine now, and then there was Covid, and family issues, and in the meantime I am getting older. Back in the day, I could be confrontational and contentious here on BN, and I am not proud of that, but I have mellowed in my older age. I have owned a condominium on the Mar de Cortez beach for 20 years, in Los Cabos.....and it has been wonderful, a truly enriching experience. But I have just put my condo for sale and I will be staying closer to my doctors in Southern California. My time in Baja is coming to an end.

@Cliffy asks the question,
"If we spend this 50 TRILLION $$$$ how much would that lower the earths climate temperature"

In the past, I would have answered that question with some confrontational snark. Today, my answer to @Cliffy is, I don't have answers anymore, I just have questions. I can't answer your question because I don't know. My question is directed at myself. What can I do personally to incrementally lower the earth's climate temperature. We here in California, as a Nation/State, we have for the last 69 consecutive days, existed on renewable energy sources (solar, wind, hydraulic, geothermal, etc.) We have not used one drop of non-renewable energy during that time period (petro-chemical, nuclear, natural gas, etc.) Our goal is to achieve 365 consecutive days on renewable energy. It has been expensive to all the citizens in California, but we are putting our money where our mouth is. Personally, I have driven a 100% electric car for the last 6 years, I put solar panels on the roofs of my last two homes, I recycle on a daily basis (general garbage, plastics/aluminum, and green waste), I use drought tolerant landscaping with drip irrigation, I have a relatively inexpensive "time of use" electric plan, and I am mostly vegetarian now. This was the question and challenge to myself. And, as a result, I love breathing all that clean air on my 5 mile walks each day. For me, climate change is not a matter of cost savings to me personally, it is a matter of life and breath!

How much is the future well being of your children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren worth to you? So @Cliffy, you will have to ask your question to yourself and come up with your own answer. I have asked that question to myself and the answer was self-evident. You may come up with a different answer. Just remember you are always welcome to be my neighbor in California where EVERYTHING is more expensive but worth every centavo to do my very small part in lowering the earth's climate temperature!

Take care, amigo

OXXO, you should check in more often!

AKgringo - 5-28-2024 at 06:27 PM

Common sense should be more common around here.

RFClark - 5-28-2024 at 07:11 PM

Have fun killing Big Oil! BTW other than $7/pack smokes what else did you get when they killed big tobacco?

The government kept the money then they will keep the money now and you get to keep paying. Oil won’t go away. In fact cleaner air will just make it hotter sooner, as it has for the last 30+ years! More than 40% of the increase in the temperature is thanks to the clean air lobby!

I don’t now and never have smoked!

Also not buying much gas either! Mostly all electric!

mtgoat666 - 5-28-2024 at 07:49 PM

Have fun killing Big Oil! BTW other than $7/pack smokes what else did you get when they killed big tobacco?

The government kept the money then they will keep the money now and you get to keep paying. Oil won’t go away. In fact cleaner air will just make it hotter sooner, as it has for the last 30+ years! More than 40% of the increase in the temperature is thanks to the clean air lobby!

I don’t now and never have smoked!

Also not buying much gas either! Mostly all electric!

Smoking is interesting story. In my lifetime i have watched smoking tobacco disappear (gone are indoor smoking, smoking sections on planes, smoking in offices).

I have watched vaping and pot become mainstream.

All good, i suppose (at least net positive).

The tobacco settlements did good for many, so what if you quibble over some details of spending? It is govt, all is compromise, govt is for all and not only for you.

Oil will go away someday even if we drill, baby, drill. It is a finite resource.

If society democratically chooses to reduce oil use, i am all for it. Democracy in action. Public policy doing social engineering. All makes life interesting.

Dont panic!

You people that get panicky over demise of oil remind me of smokers that got panicky when smoking was eliminated from public spaces. You anxious oil addicts should try pot edibles :light:

I really think cliffy, clarkles and dk would be more tolerable people if they smoked some weed now and then!

[Edited on 5-29-2024 by mtgoat666]

oxxo - 5-28-2024 at 10:01 PM

Quote:

Oil won’t go away.

In my opinion, yes and no. The oil industry is doomed here in California. We are transitioning to a fully electric automotive transportation in a very short period of time. Sure some will want to keep their antique ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicles but gasoline will become even more expensive and difficult to find, here in California at least. You will have to answer your own question whether an ICE vehicle is worth it to you and your family. On the other hand, the BIG Oil companies are starting to install automotive electric chargers on their properties. That gives some clue as to what BIG Oil is thinking the future holds for the oil industry in California. They will probably charge exorbitant electric rates to maintain their corporate profits. Me? I could care less what they charge for electricity because I charge my car at home at night when I sleep from my rooftop solar panel battery storage and electric rates are their lowest. This is the same strategy that the majority of California BEV drivers are using. So In my opinion, Big Oil is going to have an increasing problem trying to be viable in this State.

Quote:

In fact cleaner air will just make it hotter sooner, as it has for the last 30+ years! More than 40% of the increase in the temperature is thanks to the clean air lobby!

Interesting statement! I have a question for you, can you please point me to the source of your information?

muchas gracias

RFClark - 5-28-2024 at 10:33 PM

Link’s right here.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/04/11/1091087/the-inad...

oxxo - 5-29-2024 at 05:58 AM

Gracias, @RFClark. This is an interesting article. It appears to say that some limited release of high sulfur fuel emissions via commercial shipping MAY reduce the currently rapid effects of global warmer in the atmosphere (There’s ongoing debate over whether researchers can yet detect that acceleration and whether the world is now warming faster than researchers had expected.)" But elsewhere in the article it states that reduction of greenhouse gases over landmasses (like California) is essential to addressing climate change. The study of this new science is called "Geoengineering." This science is far from agreement on the wisdom of releasing high sulfur fuel emissions over offshore oceans will accomplish at this point. However, the article emphatically states the reduction of greenhouse gases over land masses (like the USA) is essential to reduce the damage being done to the environment.

@RFClark in my opinion you overstated your viewpoint and what the article says, and that led to confusion on my part. On the other hand, I appreciate that you brought this article to my attention because that viewpoint does merit my attention as the science of geoengineering continues to mature.

In conclusion, there is nothing in your referenced article that indicates I should discontinue my personal strategy to reduce my personal carbon footprint: "Before we go any further, let me stress: cutting air pollution is smart public policy that has unequivocally saved lives and prevented terrible suffering." However, I do look forward to having further discussions with you on this topic in a non-confrontational manner.

RFClark - 5-29-2024 at 11:44 AM

Well, I said nothing about what individuals should or should not do. Personally we have full off the grid solar and EVs.

Here’s a paper cited in the MIT article that states the problem more clearly.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-024-01324-8#Sec2

There is a different paper cited that offers a solution that keeps the clean air and the cooling effect.

https://acp.copernicus.org/articles/13/12059/2013/acp-13-120...

If the temperature continues to rise millions will die according to the experts. If we decrease the rate of increase by creating clouds over the ocean using higher sulphur fuel thousands will die from the pollution.

That seems a difficult choice until you consider that the transportation systems vital to supporting life as we know it also cause the deaths of 10s of thousands and injury to millions (?) more each year. Nothing in life is without risk!

For all the handwringing and carping it is a fact that technology is responsible for more benefit to a greater number of people. The same data that shows increased deaths from pollution also shows an increase in life expectancy from in the 40s in 1900 to in the high 70s today. Seen any Typhoid or Polio outbreaks lately? Medical, Water and sewerage treatment technology are responsible!

oxxo - 5-29-2024 at 12:45 PM

Quote:

[quote=1267284&tid=96458&author=RFClark]

Personally we have full off the grid solar and EVs.

Gracias for doing your part, every little bit helps!

Quote:

If the temperature continues to rise millions will die according to the experts. If we decrease the rate of increase by creating clouds over the ocean using higher sulphur fuel thousands will die from the pollution.

The way I read the subject articles, using high sulphur fuels for transoceanic shipping is a controversial subject, even among the expert scientists. Further study needs to be done before a definitive answer can be determined. I hope that the issues and impacts can be minimized so that a progressive solution can be found.

Quote:

it is a fact that technology is responsible for more benefit to a greater number of people. The same data that shows increased deaths from pollution also shows an increase in life expectancy from in the 40s in 1900 to in the high 70s today. Seen any Typhoid or Polio outbreaks lately? Medical, Water and sewerage treatment technology are responsible!

I totally agree with you on that point! As a result of a complete medical overhaul and rebuild of my cardio/pulmonary systems, my cardiologist says that with the current rapid increase in medical technology, I should live into my 100's. He says that a cure or effective treatment for the most aggressive forms of cancer is just around the corner!!! Hey! maybe we can arrange to have adjacent beds in the old folks home a few years from now. (wink, wink)

world bicycle day!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mtgoat666 - 5-29-2024 at 08:41 PM

:bounce:

June 3

JDCanuck - 5-29-2024 at 09:07 PM

Thanks to Tesla, and the now not so popular Musk, California is well populated with both EVs and the infrastructure of chargers to support them. Not so easy in Baja or even here in Canada where the demand for EVs far outstrips the available chargers to actually make them practical. Before our governments legislate the replacement of alternative vehicles and continues to drive their costs up with protective tariffs, perhaps they should copy Musk and ensure the infrastructure to support them exists. Consequently, people no longer want EVs and are falling back to hybrids which benefit the environment far less. How many chargers to this point has all that money transferred to the government produced? Last article i read stated 8 built so far across the whole of the US.
I've seen the same reaction every time a foreign country provides cheaper and far more efficient solar panels to the US as the present reaction to BYD EVs. Up go the tariffs to protect the higher priced less efficient panels built in the US, making them less affordable to the average person. Do they want to improve the environment, or do they want to continue to protect inefficient local manufacturers?

[Edited on 5-30-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 5-30-2024 at 04:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck

Thanks to Tesla, and the now not so popular Musk,

California is well populated with both EVs and the infrastructure of chargers to support them. Not so easy in Baja or even here in Canada where the demand for EVs far outstrips the available chargers to actually make them practical. Before our governments legislate the replacement of alternative vehicles and continues to drive their costs up with protective tariffs, perhaps they should copy Musk and ensure the infrastructure to support them exists. Consequently, people no longer want EVs and are falling back to hybrids which benefit the environment far less.

How many chargers to this point has all that money transferred to the government produced? Last article i read stated 8 built so far across the whole of the US.

I was an early enthusiastic adopter of Musk's EV concept, 10+ years ago. I even purchased stock in TSLA. However, much has changed in recent years as Musk continues to go off the rails. My daughter, who is a Doctor of Clinical Psychology, thinks that Musk may show evidence of adult Autism, having never met the man. I am no longer supportive of Musk, who has some serious psychological issues in my opinion. I have also divested from all my Tesla stock. Now, Musk is being considered for an advisory role in a future Presidential administration. However, as a result of a judicial determination today, I think it is unlikely that Musk will ever have an advisory role in any future Presidential administration.

In my opinion, it is a mistake to depend on a government or private investment public EV charging system. Here in California, we have our own Class 2 charger in our garage (like I do). We charge our cars at night while we sleep! Anyway, anyone who is considering the purchase of a BEV should also plan installing a Class 2 charger (50A, 240V) in their garage at a cost of $500 to $1000 (depending on your electric panel) in California as a necessary addition to your BEV purchase.

Hummm, I know that that there has been several hundred public BEV chargers installed within 30 miles of my location in California in the last 6 months.....certainly not 8 nationally. I know that several hundred installed recently in Canada and Mexico (but not in Baja California yet). BEV owners in foreign countries should put pressure on their respective national governments to expand their commitment to EV's. I know there are private charging systems in Baja. If you spend the night at Terrasal Hotel in GN, you can recharge your EV, gratis, while a paid guest there.

Quote:

I've seen the same reaction every time a foreign country provides cheaper and far more efficient solar panels to the US as the present reaction to BYD EVs. Up go the tariffs to protect the higher priced less efficient panels built in the US, making them less affordable to the average person. Do they want to improve the environment, or do they want to continue to protect inefficient local manufacturers?

[Edited on 5-30-2024 by JDCanuck]

I have to agree with you on that account! The US Labor Movement is a powerful political lobby and consequently legislating themselves out of existence! I give you as examples: USPS, the US railway system (when was the last time you saw a caboose at the end of a train, other than a museum?), public utility systems, retail goods store closing down right and left, and more. The US Labor Movement is in deep trouble. The US solar panel manufacturers need to use the technology that is available to them to compete or else they deserve to die!

RFClark - 5-30-2024 at 05:22 PM

Forcing Americans to accept 3 bowls of rice a day and a bicycle as a “good life” while our “betters” regale us about how “lucky” we are to even have that from the doors of their private jets is where all of this is headed!

oxxo - 5-30-2024 at 10:40 PM

Who is forcing Americans to accept "3 bowls of rice and a bicycle"? (Honest Question)

surabi - 5-30-2024 at 11:15 PM

Pretty interesting how some of the same people who berate those who understand how dire the climate change situation is and accuse them of exaggerating and overreacting then ridiculously exaggerate what they think the "climate czars" are going to make them do.

oxxo - 5-31-2024 at 02:53 PM

In my opinion, @Surabi, EVERYONE on BN needs to cool the rhetoric on controversial subjects, particularly ME! Although Science is in nearly unanimous agreement that greenhouse gasses in our atmosphere is causing severe climate change, there is a vocal minority that believes that what we are experiencing is the normal climate variation that has occurred over the measurable lifespan of the Earth, and that things will return to "normal" at some unknown time in the future. But will it be an Earth that we would recognize?

I invite everyone to join me on solutions to climate change (either real or imagined), personally, nationally, and globally. I will continue to implement my plan to reduce my personal "carbon footprint." I will be long gone before life, as we know it, will be unsustainable. So, I do this not to benefit me, but for those that follow me. I have enjoyed a wonderful life and I would like those that follow to have the same opportunity I have had. I want to leave Mother Earth the same as when I was born, if not an even better place!

I am still waiting for the answer to my question, "Who is forcing us to accept 3 bowls of rice a day and a bicycle."? Actually, that sounds like a pretty healthy lifestyle! Throw some home grown vegetables in that rice and ride an electric bike! (I already have an electric bike for 5 years now and I am 80% vegetarian - going to a vegan party tomorrow night!) And research has shown that an electric/peddle bike gives more exercise than a peddle only bike!!! who would've thought that?

Live Well @Surabi

mtgoat666 - 5-31-2024 at 03:05 PM