BajaNomad - Early man Baja

Early man Baja

Osprey - 4-28-2005 at 08:33 AM

All those Nomads interested in early migration will be ahead of the curve if they read this: http://www.duerinck.com/migrate.html

Bruce R Leech - 4-28-2005 at 08:43 AM

I'm going to check this out also.

Hay Osprey did I see something about you lost your lunch? :lol:

[Edited on 4-28-2005 by Bruce R Leech]

Pompano

jrbaja - 4-28-2005 at 08:50 AM

Since you are interested, I know where there are some markings that pre date any of the Baja paintings. Maybe we could do some investigating. I'll see if I can find the pictures.

Let's see

jrbaja - 4-28-2005 at 08:59 AM

if this works.

Damn!!

jrbaja - 4-28-2005 at 09:01 AM

Doug ? Everything looked like it worked and no message saying it was too big.

Bruce R Leech - 4-28-2005 at 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pompano
Bruce...I have pondered and pondered, but I still don't know what that means?

sorry Pompano It was a joke for Osprey refering to the other thread Ospreys lose their dinner.

not clear I guess. :?:

[Edited on 4-28-2005 by Bruce R Leech]

David K - 4-28-2005 at 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jrbaja
Doug ? Everything looked like it worked and no message saying it was too big.

If you want to email it to me JR, I will put it on. info*at*vivabaja.com or my msn email addy. :light:

Thanks David

jrbaja - 4-28-2005 at 09:15 AM

I just sent it. And, I actually managed to get your repellant donations down south before Dengue season. This year! :lol:

Muchas gracias from the locals who will be wearing it.

Osprey - 4-28-2005 at 09:20 AM

My boat theory is looking better every day. I read an article about the Cheddar man in Ireland. They scrapped a skeleton tooth for DNA and took DNA samples from the people in the nearby village. One was a perfect match. Since nobody could make a living in Ireland 9,000 years ago and stay on for all those terrible ages it means that all over the globe these things that looked like OCCUPATION are VISITS BY NOMADIC FISHERMEN. It's the fishermen/seal/whale/walrus/otter hunters who were roaming about in skin/reed boats whose evidence of farflung voyages over very short migration periods are now surfacing. No body, I mean no body could have painted the murals 8,000 years ago and stayed, survived this harsh place to become the modern Pericu.
I'm the only oldtimer exception. Think "vini, vidi, velcro" -- I came, I saw, I stuck around.

Neal Johns - 4-28-2005 at 09:25 AM

BS, Osprey! I was here when you arrived.

Thanks for the great website URL.

Shouldn't you be working on that book?

jrbaja - 4-28-2005 at 09:27 AM

:lol:

JR's photo resized...

David K - 4-28-2005 at 09:36 AM

Here it is at just over 45kbs.

Thanks David

jrbaja - 4-28-2005 at 09:57 AM

There are actually a number of caves that have similar markings as well as paintings and they are a mystery even to those that live there. (They usually have an explanation for everything!)
I would be willing to put a trip together for a select few if there is enough interest.

bajalera - 4-28-2005 at 10:01 AM

So, JR, you've been able to establish dates for rock art? Tell me about the method you used!

Lee

Dates ?

jrbaja - 4-28-2005 at 12:58 PM

Did I miss something here?
I was told they are old
and to me it's quite clear
they are older than paint
at least that's what I hear

From the locals who live there
not the tourists passing through
for the exact dates from "professionals"
I depend on you. :lol:

bajajudy - 4-28-2005 at 02:27 PM

Count me in. I would love to see those!
I assume that they are near San Bartola?

Nope

jrbaja - 4-28-2005 at 02:58 PM

not near San Bartolo and it is a little work getting to them but well worth it. They are in a number of places in them thar hills down south. We will keep in touch for sure.

JR

Baja Bernie - 4-28-2005 at 03:32 PM

Are these the caves we spoke of over a year ago?

Not those in particular

jrbaja - 4-28-2005 at 03:48 PM

I think the ones a year ago were paintings rather than etchings. But, they are all pretty interesting. There are some pretty incredible ones within an hour of Lera so I'm hoping to put together a trip one day.

bajalera - 4-28-2005 at 08:50 PM

Hey, JR, you said you knew of some rock art that predated paintings, and I wondered who had been able to date either one--and more importantly, how.

When it comes to dates, professionals are usually the very last people willing to come up with one. There's always the hope that someone will eventually be able to figure out a way to date paint, but even that won't be any help for the pecked stuff.

Lee

There I go again

jrbaja - 4-28-2005 at 09:18 PM

repeating hearsay I have been told by local people rather than foreign ideas and getting called on it by those in the know.
I have absolutely no idea of dates of anything nor do I particularly care. The one difference is, I have been to many of these sites and have the scars (and photos) to prove it, not that I care about that either!
If yall want to see and hear about them, phine. Otherwise, let's talk about Phuket! :lol:

And by the way Lera, did you know there is a site within about an hour of your house that would put your panties in a bunch if you saw it? :lol:

You are still invited!

And as far as "pecked stuff", that's why I haven't posted any locations or ever will on a public tourist bored..

And for those interested, I have lot's of photos and GPs coordinates of all sites in Baja at http://groups.msn.com/TheBajasBestGuidesPhotoAlbum

Well, photos and stories anyway. Hope you enjoy them and if you got a problem with them, tell someone who cares. :lol:

Early Migrations

academicanarchist - 4-29-2005 at 04:34 AM

There is research being done in different parts of North America showing patterns of migration, for example on the coast of British Columbia. Suggests that early man migrated by boats along coastal areas. There are also sites in different parts of the Americas that give different dates for early occupation, and this is perhaps the most controversial part of the story.

Osprey:

Santiago - 4-29-2005 at 06:04 AM

thanks for the link to the web-site!

bajalera - 4-29-2005 at 11:31 PM

JR, there's rock art all over the place--one nice example of it done a dozen years ago by a rancher Steve knows who got tired of Gringos stopping by and asking if he knew of any sites.

Rock art is fascinating and impressive and all that, but I've never seen much point in trying to guess whether it was related to religion or hunting or warfare or whatever.

Like everybody else, however, I've got a theory: Those ancient people--whoever they were--just liked drawing things and thought their art added a little class to the setting. We appreciate art just for the look of it, so why should we assume that primitive people were always dead serious in their motives?

As theories go, this one will never sell.

Lee

Rock Art

academicanarchist - 4-30-2005 at 03:21 AM

And rock art is found not only in Baja California, but throughout the southwestern United States and northern Mexico. During my trip to New Mexico I photographed rock art at El Moro National Monument which is located between Zuni and Grants. Also at a site near Albuquerque. One of the common images is that of the snake. Choral Peppeer took several nice shots of a snake image at one of the Baja California sites, and I took pics of a similar image at El Moro. The oldest that I have photographed are in the Big Bend area, and date back 4,000-6,000 years old. Stick figures of people, hands, and geometric figures. The most impressive are shamanic figures.

Pompano - 4-30-2005 at 07:04 AM

Bajalera...I have been to many, if not most, of the rock art locations throughout Baja, also many in SW USA, and northern Canada along Churchill River system bordering ancient game (caribou, mammoth, etc. migration routes.) We have camped next to the sites and imagined ourselves existing back in time at the moment those drawings were made.

One thing has always been tugging at my imagination about a certain feeling about all these drawings. I have noticed from Baja to the Far North that many drawings are overlapped..like a message on top of an earlier one...kind of an ancient Baja Nomad board! We did the same things ourselves at centuries-old campsites along the old river route acrosss Canada...these campsites had been used at portages continuously since man built his first bullboat or canoe. Our art placed next to old French voyaguers signatures and musings that were 250 years old... someting like: 'Jacques loves Bridget' or 'Take this canoe and shove it!'

I get the feeling the early Baja rock artists were every bit as strange as today's artists...some liked traditional art, some liked graffitti, some liked abstract, some were insane, some were giving hunt orders or how-to seminars, some were just doddling, some were forgers, and, of course, some were religious zealots.......

Of course we can't help but compare the similarity to our own modern day pre-hunt planning sessions or pep-talks. Imagine the head hunter, shaman or 'coach' explaining to the tribe (team) just what we are going after, how we kill it, and reverance to the spirit of this living thing. A kindred spirit we respect, but must kill for our existence.

[Edited on 4-30-2005 by Pompano]

Although rock art

jrbaja - 4-30-2005 at 09:12 AM

is fascinating, it isn't a high priority on my list of things to do. I have been invited to many sites by the locals, mostly because there wasn't much else to do in these areas.

The sites I have been taken to are not so much paintings but carvings and actual kitchens where the metates? are carved into the rocks. There is usually an area with LOTS of evidence of point and tool making with obsidian and the chips of these tool stones laying about.

These guys in the hills have become my friends because of the many trips I have taken into the hills delivering the badly needed donations you guys have supplied.

I was looking for places with water for bamboo and no gringos, not trying to write another book from a foreigners perspective or be able to say I was the first gringo there. (Although, I can say that about a lot of places in those hills!) :lol:

See www.confluence.org Mexico Baja

I also have a huge arrowhead collection because that's what they give me as gifts because that and cheese are about all they have.. The pedernales will be on display in the south somewhere. I ate the cheese!

So, I guess you could say that out of dumb luck looking for confluence points and other such nonsense, I have seen some very interesting things that probably wouldn't have been seen if you were looking for them on purpose......
Fairly typical from what I have seen in life!

Now, if anyones interested in seeing some of these places in person, I will put something together. Or you can see some of them at http://groups.msn.com/TheBajasBestGuidesPhotoAlbum
Otherwise, happy trails :lol:

bajalera - 4-30-2005 at 09:43 AM

Pompano, I'll buy your thoughtful interpretation--it allows for variations that make good sense [to me, anyway].

Dave - 4-30-2005 at 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jrbaja
Now, if anyones interested in seeing some of these places in person, I will put something together.

What ever happened to the nalgas tour? :biggrin:

They just pedaled by here Dave

jrbaja - 4-30-2005 at 11:39 AM

You should be seeing them about now!! :lol:

What do the petroglygphs mean? Who were these early rock artists??

Pompano - 4-30-2005 at 02:40 PM

Who painted this.....?? And why? Puzzles lost in time.

Dave - 4-30-2005 at 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jrbaja

They just pedaled by here Dave

You should be seeing them about now!! :lol:

Saw them butt:

I am interested in a much slower paced tour.

Dave

Baja Bernie - 4-30-2005 at 06:44 PM

I have been thinking about this for some time--so I will take advantage of messing up this nice thread with an observation/suggestion.
I really believe that you should change your handle to Senor Succinct. It really fits your terse responses.

Shamanic Figure

academicanarchist - 4-30-2005 at 08:07 PM

Could be a shamanic figure. The Jesuits reported stories of a race of giants painting the figures.

Mural Painters

Osprey - 5-1-2005 at 06:21 AM

The Jesuits were 7,000 years too late to know about the painters. When and if my book about the rock art and it's artists is published you'll have some interesting facts and speculations to ponder.

Rock Art from 5,000 years ago

academicanarchist - 5-1-2005 at 06:48 AM

This example of rock art from the Big Bend region of Texas is from an occupation site dated about 5,000 years ago.

Try again

academicanarchist - 5-1-2005 at 06:50 AM

One from near Albuquerque

academicanarchist - 5-1-2005 at 06:52 AM

[Edited on 5-1-2005 by academicanarchist]

bajalera - 5-1-2005 at 06:20 PM

Bernie, you're so right about Senor Succinct. Dave is the most succinct regular contributor to this board and also the cleverest. His witty comments often make me laugh out loud.

Lee

Lera

Baja Bernie - 5-1-2005 at 06:25 PM

I share you opinion and laughter AND am so glad that I have not stumbled into his sights,