and no supplies for school
I find it somewhat annoying
Some think saving missions is cool
When these places came
Spreading "salvation" and disease
The inhabitants were innocent
Doing just as they pleased
They didn't have marriage
Pagan gods to be sure
The fanatics came in
and death was the cure
An entire population
with this new found religion
seeking riches and gold
Sure saved these "heathens"
at least from becoming old
So by preserving these relics
we are preserving the past
Perhaps Mother Nature
Didn't want them to last!
Poor construction although maybe true
Poor history, death, punishment and pain
This is what really went through
Maybe it's a better idea
To let them wash away in the rainBarry A. - 5-4-2005 at 06:43 AM
Without the preservation of history and culture, survival is meaningless.Bruce R Leech - 5-4-2005 at 06:51 AM
we should keep these things to remind us of the mistakes or ancestors made so we can avoid making the same in the present.
maybe we can feed a starving child also. If I could find one. every one is fat here in Mulege.jrbaja - 5-4-2005 at 09:43 AM
Without the preservation of history, we may learn the truth (at least in the u.s.).
Without the preservation of culture, you are absolutely correct.Dave - 5-4-2005 at 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Without the preservation of history and culture, survival is meaningless.
Spoken like a true social anthropologist. I doubt that starving people give a ratsass about history or culture... Just their next meal.Bruce R Leech - 5-4-2005 at 10:34 AM
where are all of the starving people in Baja Sur?
I never said starving
jrbaja - 5-4-2005 at 10:39 AM
but I did say hungry. And they are mostly in the remote fishing villages when there isn't any fish.
The good thing about the people of Baja is that they will never starve because they know how to survive.Bruce R Leech - 5-4-2005 at 10:53 AM
in our aria the hungriest kids are mine my god they are always hungry
the biggest problem in the fish camps here is they sell all the fish and buy sebritas and sodas for the kids to live on. they are not Hungry but they
have malnutrition out of ignorance. but every one is happy and fat.Dave - 5-4-2005 at 10:58 AM
The point was:
Survival is what drives our species. If hungry, anyone would trade history and culture for a meal. Saying survival is meaningless if history and
culture is lost is elitist.Bruce R Leech - 5-4-2005 at 11:17 AM
yes you are right Dave but I don't think that is happening in Baja do you.
The real point was
jrbaja - 5-4-2005 at 11:19 AM
was that if bored americans need to do their "dogooding" in a foreign country, wouldn't it be better to help the living people with things rather than
fumble around with ruins and a not so pretty past?
This is not meant as an attack on Jack Swords or his projects as I know he does a lot of good for the people. But, in my opinion, there are way
better ways of helping Baja, and the people that really need it. Like school supplies, medical supplies, safety gear, clothing, fish hooks, etc.
And Bruce, I also said "remote". No sabritas, no sodas, no Conasupa, no nada.Bruce R Leech - 5-4-2005 at 11:30 AM
I think both are important Jr.
But I wish you would tell us where this camp is with all these hungry kids and many people here will want to help them out. maybe even some sabritas.
Fish Camps
jrbaja - 5-4-2005 at 11:48 AM
Bruce, there's a bunch of them on both sides of the peninsula. Many you need to get to by boat and the rest need a vary stout 4wd or a loco gringo in
a 2wd van.
There are also many places in the hills that don't benefit from the tourists as the resorts along the coast do. These places have been basically
ignored for all these years because tourists want beaches and getting to them as fast as they can.
Any of the communities between Punta Peque?a and Lopez Mateos or Puerto San Carlos and Todos Santos could use supplies. The whole stretch of
coastline between El Centenario and Agua Verde needs supplies.
All of the communities in the Sierra de la Giganta are lacking employment and supplies.
Most of the communities in the Sierra de la Laguna are lacking supplies and basically everywhere that doesn't benefit from tourism could use outside
assistance.
True, nobody is starving but, neither do they have paper, pencil or medicines and other important supplies.
Wow, I have never been called an "elitist" before----I will have to ponder that one.
As JR said, "I did not say starving", only hungry. It goes without saying that "starving" pre-empts everything else. Still, when you back-off to just
"hungry", then I stand by my statement. Culture and History are what make "living" worth while, at least for me with my full belly.
I believe that both (culture-history, and a full belly) are important, and are not mutually exclusive, in life. To champion one without the other is a
mistake, IMHO.
I would have to ask
jrbaja - 5-4-2005 at 11:59 AM
the Indigenous People what they think about preserving this sort of history. Oh wait, I can't!Bruce R Leech - 5-4-2005 at 12:17 PM
Jr I have been to most of those places many times and as a mater of fact most of my best Friends live there and I haven't seen hungry children in any
of the ones I have been too as a mater of fact some of the best meals I have ever had were with these people. if there are any specific ones that you
know of that have hungry kids please let me know and they wont be hungry any more.
And the school supplies
jrbaja - 5-4-2005 at 12:49 PM
medicines and protective gear? Perhaps you saw something I missed in these places Bruce since most of your best friends live in them.
And it's true about the food, I have mentioned the cuisine in many of these places before and even made special trips to get it.
But, there are places in Baja where undernourishment is a fact of life. Which is why I started the trading program a few years back. Fruit to the
fishermen. Fish to the mountains. Cheeses and venado to the fruit growers.
Perhaps I should specify, hungry for what they are lacking.
And if you have actually spent time in these areas, you would already be aware of what they are lacking if you spent any time there.
Specifics for Bruce
jrbaja - 5-4-2005 at 01:18 PM
La Florida, San Luis Gonzaga, San Pedro de la Presa, La Purificacion, Las Animas, Los Innocentes, El Oro, and many many more.
It's not that they don't have food, it's that they don't have balanced diets.
And they even have schools, they just don't have the supplies for them.
And they cut wood for work. Too bad so many are missing an eye from it.
And when you get done finding them on a map, maybe we could make a trip to say hi to your friends in these places.
JR
Skeet/Loreto - 5-4-2005 at 01:45 PM
Please do not take the following defensive;
JR As you know I have been to most of the named places manytimes. I differ in you Idea of the Hungry in that they do not have a Balanced Diet, but JR
have you ever seen so many Happy People and children??
That is one of the Major reasons I contunied going to Baja, that people who had so Little were so Happy.
I see the same thing in the States now with Skinny Blonds who sure could use some Fattening up.
My idea has always been to let them live their Life as they see it, not as an American sees It.
Remember the Story about Chico from San Nicholas? I brought him Veggie Seeds to Plant. He responded why should I Plant a Garden?, When I am Hungry I
will go Fishing.
I applaud what you are trying to do, just differ in the manner and reasoning for doing what you think
you have to do.
Keep up the good work!
Skeet/Loreto
In God I Trust'
History is History----
Barry A. - 5-4-2005 at 02:15 PM
JR
History is what it is-----and it should be preserved so that we have a frame of reference, don't you think?------What the indigenous people think
about that is really beside the point, isn't it?------we don't need any revisionists distorting what really happened in the past, or letting it fade
into obscurity, less we make the same mistakes over and over again.
Now as for your helping the folks; that is wonderful and I applaud you, and always have. Your the best!!!! I just think that the other stuff is also
important, and somebody wanting to preserve it is also to be applauded, IMHO.
I enjoy your posts, and respect what you are trying to do, (and apparently succeeding very well).
Everybody should contribute what they can, in their own special way, as able.
Having said all this, I have to tell you that I completely agree with Bruce and Skeet. I also have been to most of the places you mention multible
times, and they sure seem happy to uneducated me. However, maybe I am just blind, or an elitist insensitive guy, but the indigenous peoples that I
encountered in Baja 50 years ago sure seem to be more happy than their "lot" now. Ignorance was bliss?? But today they still seem relatively happy
and healthy, outside the Metro areas. Maybe I am kidding myself, tho.
learning to give...
eetdrt88 - 5-4-2005 at 02:38 PM
when my wife and I started going down to baja alot,she kept saying how we needed to bring our exrta clothes and other stuff to give to the folks in
some of the more remote areas we ventured into....well at first i kept saying the truck was to packed with our junk to fit more stuff but eventually
we did start bringing down things like clothes and last time we brought a whole box of skin care products that was given to me by someone i work
for....any way we gave them to the family(a couple with a baby)that was running the little store where we camped...they were happy,that made me feel
good.......the way i see it here in the states we have so much its ridiculous not to be bringing down things for people who cant get them as easily
as us
Barry and All
Skeet/Loreto - 5-4-2005 at 02:40 PM
Barry I thnk you have aPoint.
After the road opened. TV.Telephones etc came to Loreto all the Kids wanted to be like the Americanos, just as so many Millions would like to come to
america and be an american.
What they do not know is that there are negatives in any culture, they are to me just trying to better their Lives where it be Money or just Learning.
Before 1980 or so you did not see "Short Shorts" Uncovered Women going to Mass, and all the products associated with "Thrills and chills'.
I found that if you helped a fisherman buy a Panga you were really Helping him Help Himself.
For the fisherman who was lazy, buy his Panga sell it Half price to the guy who wanted to work.
Some [people you can Change, some you cannot, just like the Skinny blonde who will ruin her Health to keep Skinny!!!
Skeet/Loreto
Then was then
jrbaja - 5-4-2005 at 02:58 PM
and now is now. I take things to these guys because I have been asked and have seen the need.
Very true that these people are some of the happiest (and healthiest) I have ever encountered in any country. There are a few who could probably be
healthier with a better diet although, they will live, and sing without it.
What is happening here in Baja nowadays is that some of their kids are getting away from these rural places and going to college. And they are
bringing back news from the outside world. And many of them have families in the cities who are working and buying things unavailable to the rural
folks. And some have TV's and they see what they have been missing. (Or not!)
But the fact is, they want to send their kids to school. There are many in the rural areas and all kids go but it costs money and they are very
limited with supplies. This is why I am trying to help. And they asked if I could. I said I would try.
Thanks to everyone who has helped with this!!!!
I started the thread with "Hungry Kids" but it's really about a lot more than that. It's about trying to help some very nice people keep up with
what's going on in Baja.
I am personally trying to do this by teaching them to work with bamboo so they can be self sufficient and not need to sell their property. We shall
see if it works.
I am still taking school supplies and other things that are badly needed to these communities but you will notice that I haven't asked for food in a
long time. That's because of the trading going on.
And I'll tell you what, you have never seen bigger smiles when some of these pescadores get a bag of fresh fruit, vegetables and empanadas! Right in
there with a case of Pacificos!!
I'll bend a little on the preservation of history but I don't see it as a priority compared to the education of these kids.
I would imagine Jack also helps the locals out on his trips because I know he has a love for them.
So, while on these preservation missions to the missions, howz about taking along a box of school supplies, safety goggles in the mountains, or some
kids clothes from the closets for the more rural areas por favor.
Everybody!!
Skeet/Loreto - 5-4-2005 at 03:33 PM
I would also suggest small sacks of Potatoes, Rice, Beans. and the Spice 'Ginger Root" Canned Milk is also very good as well as the older Sewing
Machines. Any thing that can be used.
Skeet/Loreto
Poverty is relative
Skipjack Joe - 5-4-2005 at 03:43 PM
To a large degree, I believe, poverty and the unhappiness that comes from it is relative to what your neighbors have. If they are on an equal footing
with you then there is little envy and all are pretty happy. I'm not talking about the sort of poverty that doesn't provide a roof over your head or
the kind that shortens your lifespan by 20 years.
My parents lived in the old country in conditions that most Americans can't dream of and they were the happiest years of their lives. The only sense
of poverty came by way of movies on the big screen, but that was so remote that there was little to compare to.
That's the sad thing about the development projects you read about in Loreto. As people start moving into these 200K homes the residents of Loreto
will, for the first time start to feel real poor (even though their income may indeed rise). Crime is sure to follow as the have nots try to get the
things that they were perfectly happy to be without earlier.
Loreto is Mulege is Bahia de los Angeles is
jrbaja - 5-4-2005 at 04:07 PM
the same as all the rest of the tourist "meccas".
I'm talking about the rest of the people who haven't become american/ canadianised.
These people can still benefit from our help through providing real work and education and choose for themselves how much of this "modern" world
they want to have a part in.
I took a poll a long time ago in the mountains and 50% of the people didn't want to see change come and 50% did. It had nothing to do with age,
location or poverty level either.
Fact is, more people are coming and I would prefer these folks having an income/education so they don't have to become maids in Loreto Bay to send
their kids to school.Bruce R Leech - 5-4-2005 at 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by jrbaja
It's not that they don't have food, it's that they don't have balanced diets.
And they even have schools, they just don't have the supplies for them.
this is exactly what I wrote . there are not hungry children in those places they just need a better diet. and this is the case in many cites here in
Baja also no one teaches nutrition.
as for the school surplus the gov. gives all schools the same surplus no mater where it is . if those kids are not getting the same things my kids are
then all the director needs to do is request these things from La Paz and they will be there .
Well then,
jrbaja - 5-4-2005 at 05:52 PM
as long as you are happy with what your kids have in school, I guess there is nothing lacking! Except for one thing.
The money to buy the things really reguired in school by the MEXICAN families that don't have money exchange businesses in Mulege.
Are you saying that you don't need to buy things for your kids because the school supplies everything? Like uniforms? Pencils, Paper, Pencil
Sharpeners, notebooks, etc. in sufficient amounts to supply all the kids for all the years?
Perhaps this is true in Mulege but not here in Rosarito or San Bartolo or any of the other places I have mentioned. In fact, I bet if you talk to
any Mexican outside of a gringo enclave, they will tell you about how expensive school really is.
It's true that the school system has greatly improved but as far as money goes, same as the u.s.. Just not enough for education.
And then, if they want to continue their education, you know, spelling, math, agriculture, it gets really expensive!
So, in the mean time until I see well equipped children running around, I will continue to help them out.Bruce R Leech - 5-4-2005 at 05:57 PM
Jr you stated.... I am personally trying to do this by teaching them to work with bamboo so they can be self sufficient and not need to sell their
property. We shall see if it works.
this is one of the best things I have herd of someone doing in a long time. this is truly a project that will benefit that community from now on. what
the people really need here is industry such as this to create jobs. this is so much better than a car factory or tourist industry because with the
Bamboo they can grow proses and sell the product all them selfs. no Japanese no Americans or any other foreigners needed. the are countless other
reasons why I like this Idea but you already know all that.
for this I thank you very much.Packoderm - 5-4-2005 at 06:35 PM
"Without the preservation of history and culture, survival is meaningless."
I feel that is a true statement as far as human beings are concerned. It becomes elitist when a society doesn't recognize a different culture's
history and culture as relevent and thus pushes their own values to replace the ones they didn't recognize as relevent.Bruce R Leech - 5-4-2005 at 06:47 PM
well at least we solved Baja hunger. we can tackle the education system next.
