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Bad gas

Arthur - 6-28-2005 at 02:18 PM

I was just reading the post, "Gas Fraud Mexico," in the Baja News thread. It concludes with good old Anonymous saying that he almost ruined his engine with a tank of bad gas. Gas can be adulterated with used motor oil or solvents, among other things, they say, and the bad guys do it by the tanker-truck load.

I can see how enough oil could clog your carburetor or your fuel injectors, but I wonder how often you could get some bad gas that could really total an engine I guess if you got a lot of solvent exploding when it shouldn't, or enough water to make you break a rod (when the pistons couldn't compress the gas), that would do it, but it would have to be pretty darn adulterated stuff.

For you long-term residents who have bought countless tankfulls: Do you run into bad gas much? Have you heard many credible stories of lunched engines?

Me No - 6-28-2005 at 02:26 PM

Yes, the second station going south in Maneadero is to be avoided. I never actually lost an engine, but I had plenty of problems associated with it. In cars trucks motorcycles, boats. I managed to put the stuff in everything I owned, as I had bought 2 five gallon cans of it. Usually though, once you get all the bad stuff out, you are OK. I think the worst to come of it was a blown EGR sensor?

[Edited on 6-29-2005 by Me No]

Tucker - 6-28-2005 at 02:30 PM

Arthur, I'm personally not concerned with bad gas. I drove my 78 Jimmy for 7 years using pemex products, finally installed a new carberator as a normal course of action. None of my other vehicles have suffered from contaminated fuel. My only rule is to wait to buy gas from a new station for at least a month after it opens. I use original equipment filters

I got a...

The Gull - 6-28-2005 at 02:32 PM

tankful of bad gas once when I ate some mole in TJ.

nada problemo

jerry - 6-28-2005 at 02:44 PM

it would be all but imposable to damage an engine by bad fuel if your filters are in place
the filters will simply plug up engine will loose power then quit
on baja at least i have been using the gas and diesel for over 15 yrs and no problem not even filter problems
i think that most problems are caused by dirty cans
have a good one jerry

yankeeirishman - 6-28-2005 at 02:46 PM

Try to buy your gas from a gas station that is consistently busy and therefore has its underground tanks filled on a regular basis. Gas stations that are slow will have gas that has been sitting in underground tanks for longer periods of time, leading to gas contamination.
This contamination can mean that the gas you are purchasing is less powerful than fresh gas and will decrease your fuel economy. Perhaps too, a tow truck will be needed!

Me No - 6-28-2005 at 03:21 PM

Funny, when I mentioned all the problems to my Mexican mechanics and neighbors, they all laughed and said that station is famous for bad gas. If you notice when you drive by it is always empty. Sure does make it easy to get in and out though.

*****, you ********** remind me of the guy's I meet all over baja. **********************. You are the old guy who has been around for a while, you never really talked to anyone but a very few of your gringo neighbors. The ones you have met you didn't like. You look at the Mexican people as being needy and beneith you, and tell everyone you meet how bad all of those people are. Have fun you old farts, you will always know you are right, and you can take that to your grave. :lol:

[Edited on 6-29-2005 by BajaNomad]

PacO - 6-28-2005 at 03:41 PM

Quote:

I gotta ask, Me No, how did you deduce all that about those guys from this post? Just curious.

[Edited on 6-28-2005 by PacO]

[Edited on 6-29-2005 by BajaNomad]

Me No - 6-28-2005 at 03:50 PM

Your right Pac O. Many Many posts led to that rant. :barf:

At least I got it out of my system. You ever meet one of the guys I am talking about?

The first time for me was at Martin Verdugos. This was in the late 80's and I was in my early 20's. We were tent camping and had a 14ft car topper. When my buddy and I went down to launch we were informed that launching on the south side of the pier was for "members only", and we had to launch on the north side of the pier. Have you ever been there? The north side is all rocks and the south side is sandy beach. Stupid dumb kid me, launches on the north side. When we were retrieving our boat in the afternoon, another old fart comes up to me and tells me what an idiot I am for not using the sandy side. WTF. I have a thousand more. How much time you got? I am willing to bet that ********************** was one of those guys.

[Edited on 6-29-2005 by BajaNomad]

life of gasoline

yankeeirishman - 6-28-2005 at 04:00 PM

Anyone here knows the shelf life of gasoline stored in a Jerry can?

Eli - 6-28-2005 at 04:01 PM

My dear ol Pop use to always advise me to keep the gas tank topped off at half full +. His theory was that the trash sunk to the bottom of the tank and stayed there until you sucked it out thru the carburator when you got down to the bottom of your gas tank. He was pretty smart about such stuff, so I always believed him and followed his advise, about that anyway.

Oh yeah, and same deal when you bought gasoline, if you could ever figure it out, ya shouldn't fill when they were down to their dreges because than you just bought all the garbage in the bottom of their tank. Ah ya know, sometimes I really, really miss that sweet ol fart, sigh, he was the best ya know........... ah well.

Me No - 6-28-2005 at 04:02 PM

Hose A. Very good points.

Yankee. I wouldn't let it go more than 3 months unless you use a fuel stablizer.

A-ok has it. thanks A. I had to fix that goof anyways. :lol:

[Edited on 6-28-2005 by Me No]

yankeeirishman - 6-28-2005 at 04:13 PM

Oh thanks _me no_. got a brand name you can advise?

A-OK - 6-28-2005 at 04:37 PM

yankee

Sta-Bil......... stuff is great.

Tucker - 6-28-2005 at 04:57 PM

Tom, I would expect that sort of irrational attack from other people on here, but you don't know me and I've never badmouthed you, so what's your problem? Never been to verdugo's.

David K - 6-28-2005 at 05:28 PM

How did I escape being trashed this time? :lol:

Arthur, in my countless trips to Baja where I was driving (1973 to today)... I cannot recall getting any contaminated gas.

Pre-Mex.1 (before 1973), my dad would place a chamois in the funnel as gas was transferred from 55 gal. drums into our Jeep Wagoneer to filter out bits of rust and water and ?? In the pre pavement days, south of El Rosario, there were no pumps... just ranchers that sold gas as a side business.

All of us who traveled Baja in the 70's and 80's will remember Pemex' regular leaded gasoline, named 'NOVA' (and called 'Gasomex' before) that was rated at 81 octane but was really about 79 octane... THAT was BAD! We either added Morosso or other octane buster... or retarded the engine timing, to prevent dieseling and pinging to our motors designed to use 87 octane or better.

No va means 'doesn't go'... a good name for the stuff!

Back on Subject

MrBillM - 6-28-2005 at 05:40 PM

The following was posted in Baja News 06-11-05 and I had posted a reference to the L.A. Times article on the same subject.
Adulteration of gas in Baja was widespread back in the 60s and 70s, no doubt usually with diesel fuel since it was so much cheaper. I know that when I got a bad batch, that's exactly what it smelled like.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oil and Robbers Make for a Volatile Mix in Mexico
# The state loses more than $1 billion a year to criminals. An editor recently lost his life.

By Chris Kraul, Times Staff Writer

POZA RICA, Mexico ? The thieves are nothing if not brazen, backing their tanker trucks right up to refinery terminals and hauling away thousands of gallons of gasoline at a time.

They mix the good gas with junk additives, including solvents and used motor oil, then sell the adulterated brew as diesel or gasoline to service station owners across Mexico, who pass it on to unsuspecting motorists.

ADVERTISEMENT
Mexico's state-owned oil monopoly, Petroleos Mexicanos, loses more than $1 billion in fuel sales annually to the thieves, government officials acknowledge. And officials at the oil giant, known as Pemex, are believed to be involved, receiving cuts of the profits for arranging the thefts or looking the other way.

"It's a grave problem that affects not just motorists but many workers and the financial health of the nation," said Sen. Lydia Madero Garcia, a member of a special legislative committee investigating Pemex who says company officials are probably implicated. "It is a culture of robbery that depends on many elements, including those who have worked or do work in the government."

The stakes in Mexico's contraband gas and diesel business are huge, which may be why the owner and editor of this town's muckraking La Opinion newspaper was killed gangland-style as he drove to his home in nearby Papantla on April 8.

Raul Gibb Guerrero, described by associates as a civic do-gooder who saw his newspaper as an instrument for improving the public weal, had uncovered what the paper alleged was a seamy, locally based contraband fuel racket that had spread over eight states. Gibb waged a four-year campaign to prod Pemex and local and federal authorities to take action.

Nationwide, the thefts may be sapping the government of as much as 11% of its gasoline, diesel and other refined fuels every year, Pemex officials have said.

It's also hitting the pocketbooks of Mexicans whose cars are ruined by the contaminated gas. Last year, Pemex paid out at least $700,000 to 3,200 motorists to settle claims.

Moreover, motorists are frequently defrauded at the pump, receiving 5% less gasoline, on average, than what the meter shows, according to Profeco, Mexico's consumer protection agency. In Acapulco, a city rife with rigged pumps, motorists routinely receive less than two-thirds of the gas they pay for.

The government of President Vicente Fox acknowledged the problems and last year sent army and police units to guard Pemex installations. The vigilance resulted in an 11% increase in the company's refining production for the rest of 2004, Pemex executive Juan Bueno Torio told reporters.

The troops and the cops are gone, but intense undercover investigations continue, government sources say.

Fox also formed a commission composed of four Cabinet-level secretaries to investigate the thefts and corruption. And he is pushing for a federal law to make it a felony to steal fuel, legislation that has been fought tooth and nail by the association of gas station owners and gas transport firms, who Maduro Garcia says profit handsomely from the contraband schemes.

The rackets take advantage of what prosecutors call "judicial loopholes," as well as lax internal controls and persistent corruption within Pemex, law enforcement and industry officials say.

"This is a serious problem that you see in no other area of production. In its gravity and dimension, it could not exist without the complicity" of high-level Pemex officials, said Rodrigo Roque Diaz, undersecretary at Profeco.

Pemex officials, including former director Raul Munoz Leos, have acknowledged that the scale of the theft and adulteration was possible only with the complicity of Pemex employees.

Many owners of Mexico's 7,000 gas stations ? all trademarked Pemex but virtually all of them independent franchises ? rebelled against Fox's efforts to randomly monitor the quality and quantity of sales at the pump. About 40 owners, who together control 1,500 stations, got a court injunction to keep the monitors off their property.

While acknowledging that some station owners are selling adulterated gas or less gas than the meter shows, Eduardo Knapp Aguilar, a director of Onexpo, the national association of station owners, told Proceso magazine this year that his group opposed random checks and new metering because Pemex would not certify the quantity and quality of wholesale gas it delivers to the members.

"The big problem is with Pemex," Knapp Aguilar said.

One former Pemex executive said that beyond outright thievery, the contraband fuel rackets also take advantage of Pemex "subsidies" ? discounts on fuel that are given to agriculture, fisheries and shipping firms on the assumption that those industries create jobs and exports.

"The problem is that these people don't use fuel for what they say and sell it back to market for a premium," the former executive said.

Jose Antonio Herrera, technical control manager of Pemex's refining division, said the company considered the theft a serious and complex problem, involving corruption at several points along the supply chain, including pipelines, storage tanks and tanker trucks. "Complicity exists among Pemex personnel," he said.

But Herrera also said the company had made significant recoveries of stolen supplies in the last two years with a combination of police work, covert supervision and better technology for detecting pipeline leaks and pressure failures.

"We are improving controls," he said.

At La Opinion, Gibb's newspaper, much of the coverage focused on an "alternative fuels" business run by Martin Rojas near Poza Rica, which is one of Pemex's biggest refining centers and the site of much of the thievery.

Rojas ran what locals call Pemexito, or Little Pemex, a business in the neighboring town of Tihuatlan that included three huge storage tanks where adulterated fuels were mixed and stored, the La Opinion articles alleged. The Tihuatlan installation has been shut down for environmental violations.

Rojas has never been charged with fuel theft, and mixing or possessing gasoline with questionable additives is not a crime, although selling it is. But in March 2004, Rojas was charged and arrested by federal police on tax fraud charges. He disappeared after posting bond and is considered a fugitive.

Fuel-mixing installations owned by Rojas in eight states have been closed for alleged environmental and tax violations, La Opinion reported, in articles that won two Mexican journalism prizes.

Sources close to the investigation of Gibb's slaying said that before Rojas disappeared, he approached Gibb to make a plata o plomo offer, which roughly translates as a share of the profits from the gas sales ? if the editor stopped publishing ? or a bullet if he did not.

Among the theories being investigated by the federal attorney general's office is that Gibb was killed in retaliation for the articles or to silence the paper's critical voice, according to published reports. Drug traffickers, family members and local businessmen are also being looked at in connection with his slaying, the reports said.

Spokeswoman Eunice Enciso of the federal attorney general's office in Veracruz declined to comment on the case, saying only that the government had formed a task force to investigate the slaying.

Gibb was one of three Mexican investigative journalists who disappeared or were killed in early April.

Though she has no firsthand knowledge of the probe, Sen. Madero Garcia said she believed Gibb might have been killed for his editorial crusade.

"This is a mafia like any of the drug traffickers," she said. "Look who is benefiting. If you close the key to their enrichment, as a news reporter or a government official, they will make you suffer."

Profeco's Roque Diaz said the gas theft problem wouldn't be solved overnight.

"It has to do with a culture of impunity, a lack of oversight and financial discipline that has long been the rule in the energy industry," he said. "But we are making the effort and will arrive at a solution."

Me No - 6-28-2005 at 05:43 PM

Boyz, Me thinks thou doth protestith too much! :lol:

capn.sharky - 6-28-2005 at 06:07 PM

The only problem I have had in Baja is with a little water in the gas. This is probably caused by condensation in the station tanks. It is humid down there and the tanks will sweat. I dump my filters from time to time and this seems to correct the problem. Since the water will go to the bottom of your tank, why not dump the very last gallon into a 5 gal. bucket. Let it sit for 15 mins. and take the good gas off the top and put it back into your tank. I doubt the Pemex stations put water in the gas on purpose. Hope this helps.

Tucker - 6-28-2005 at 06:10 PM

Wood alcohol works good for binding to the water and passing it through the system.

TMW - 6-28-2005 at 06:12 PM

On my 91 chevy I had to change the fuel filter every 25,000 miles, Like clock work. Lots of Baja gas ran thru it. Engine would start sputtering at about 2000 rpm or so and top out at about 2500 rpm. My 93 Toyota ran about as many miles in Baja but never had a problem with fuel. Finally changed it's filter at 100,000 just for the heck of it.

LarryK - 6-28-2005 at 06:15 PM

I never buy gas from a station that I know just received a load of gas. Pumping that new gas into the tanks stirs up the water in the tanks.

Arthur - 6-28-2005 at 07:19 PM

I used to install those little inline horizontal Pyrex filters that you could open up and clean the element in. And those old inverted-glass-dome ones I used to see on a lot of Chevys would definitely accumulate water at the bottom -- you could loosen the little thumbscrew and dump the stuff out.

Is wood alcohol the only alcohol that would bind the water? I suspect that any booze would do.

Tucker - 6-28-2005 at 07:22 PM

I've only used rubbing alcohol, maybe a half pint once in a while.

roundtuit - 6-28-2005 at 08:29 PM

Gas treatment products contain about 15% percent of Isoproplyl
which is rubbing alcohol so why buy a diultated product (Big bucks) . I always use rubbing alcohol as a alternative. Works for me :light:

Fatboy - 6-29-2005 at 10:10 PM

Well, I am no expert like some of you but personally I have never had a problem with bad gas in the USA or Mexico. As to something to remove water from your tank there is a product sold at almost all the autopart stores in the USA called Heet that is made for just that purpose, probably a LITTLE safer then using rubbing alcohol even though that is what it is. Cost about $1.50 a bottle.
Now I have been selling car parts for the last 10 years and we have about 300 people a day in the store and you know what most people blame when a problem comes up sudden like most of the time? You got it, Bad Gas. So while I am sure it happens it has to be pretty rare.
As far as this stuff about not being in Mexico long enough to have it crop up -it is either bad gas or not, if you only fill up once in Mexico and only put in a 1/2 tank and the gas is 'bad' then you have a problem. For those of you who rarely or never have a full tank then condensation is a much more realistic scenario then bad gas, think about every time you have to use your defroster. You think that only happens to windshields?
And FINALLY why is it always one person who gets the bad gas? Heck if it is pumping water, in any quanity, you would have broken down cars radiating from that station like heat from the sun...Oh Well just my 2cents worth which ain't worth much because I have only spents weeks at a time in Mexico and you most live there for a years before they give ya the bad stuff :lol:

When you get away from the Carretera

jrbaja - 6-30-2005 at 09:49 AM

and tourist areas, the gas comes out of drums. It is a wise idea to use a rag or filter when they pump the gas out of the drums. This is because of rust and chunks, etc. that is in the drums.
These things are what I refer to as bad gas although it isn't necessarily the gas but what's in it.

[Edited on 7-1-2005 by Q87]

Sniffing Fumes

MrBillM - 6-30-2005 at 09:55 AM

It seems really strange that a thread regarding personal experiences with Bad Gas could generate responses of an adversarial nature. "I'm right, you're wrong ! NO ! you're wrong and I'm right".

Since this whole thing is simply a matter of empirical evidence, ALL of our experiences could be correct. If you've never gotten any, fine, you're lucky. No need to defend Pemex.

I can relate to occasions that I know were a result of contaminated gas. The times when you could SMELL the diesel effect or the time when I bought gas in San Felipe and by the time I arrived at the Border crossing, my GMC truck was barely running. After stopping at the Chevron station in Calexico, it ran fine again so fuel was the only variable.

While I really appreciate the knowledge imparted by the Expert Auto Mechanic, I too, spent a lot of years in the Auto Repair trade.

elizabeth - 6-30-2005 at 11:54 AM

I most definitely do not want to get into the middle of this...but, my curiosity is getting the better of me.

Please understand, this is purely a language question...

When you use the term chicken coup, do you mean coup as in a sudden strategic move, as in a political coup to take over a government; a car (minus the e on the end) as in coupe de ville; or coop, as in a small crate or pen that usually houses chickens, also defined as any small place, spelled coop and not coup.

Coop

jrbaja - 6-30-2005 at 11:58 AM

:lol:

Sorrie

rpleger - 6-30-2005 at 01:19 PM

NO, But it`s right down the road in Maria Isabell RV Park.

Thanks for the comment.

A few years ago at the Highway Station in Mulege...

vgabndo - 6-30-2005 at 01:32 PM

I got two tanks of bad gas in my Ford van. It turned out to just be filthy. Trashed all my fuel filters. The only problem was that when the old rig sputtered to a stop, it couldn't have been at a worse place on the Parachute Grade north of Santa Rosalia. I tried to back onto a tiny little wide spot (dead engine, no power steering or brakes) and jack knifed my utility trailer. It was a very long sixty seconds running up the hill around the blind corner to get my reflective triangles out!!! THEN two big trucks arrived. Whew.

MAJOR Baja BooHoo averted.

[Edited on 6-30-2005 by vgabndo]

Arthur - 6-30-2005 at 02:10 PM

Let me let you in on a little secret, MeNo: The kind of pointless hassling that you engage in doesn't generate much fun. It just it drags everything down. Until you get rid of some of your anger (which you end up apologizing for every so often) the only way to deal with your kind of fun is to just ignore your posts, which is what I'll do from now on.

"....I love this forum"!

yankeeirishman - 6-30-2005 at 02:43 PM

This place is better than a good newspaper! Vikings are many here......!

"...and the villagers came to my belltower with flaming gasoline torches

jrbaja - 6-30-2005 at 02:50 PM

They obviously didn't buy it here! :lol:

Me no!

yankeeirishman - 6-30-2005 at 04:55 PM

That certainly wasnt aimed at you....all of us!

Hell...I'm the Capt of that ship. Head Viking , yes? :lol:

Theres only one person here I dont like...and I think she is a he!

Are we still happy campers with each other?

"I suppose you just let those sort of things slide".....do I really have to answer that question? You know me better by now. I still bite sometimes. :lol:

[Edited on 6-30-2005 by yankeeirishman]

Bruce R Leech - 6-30-2005 at 05:28 PM

I had Bad Gas last night and I tried the alcohol. and then I passed out :barf:

movinguy - 6-30-2005 at 05:35 PM

Boy, has this thread degenerated.

Oh BTW - is this a coop grouper? Make mine veracruz - no olives! :cool:

[Edited on 7-1-2005 by movinguy]