BajaNomad

Billfish Release Policy

jerry - 4-23-2006 at 03:49 PM

Bravo To the pam and francisco they practice what they preach

Don Alley - 4-23-2006 at 06:21 PM

That's a great move by Baja Big Fish.

I hope others here follow suit, and with more species...maybe jacks and roosterfish too.

The mortality question is a good one. Sometimes fish are hooked deep, or in the gut, or a fish "throws his stomach," like this one:



So should such "questionable" fish be released?

I should ask the Billfish Society for info on that.

Years ago I was taught that the salt environment and stomach acids took care of the hook. We used to release billfish by simply cutting the leader, so not only were the fish not handled, they could be released a bit greener. Today many grab the bill and extract the hook.

Mike Supino - 4-23-2006 at 06:38 PM

From the studies that I have read approximately 2/3's don't survive.
Why target and catch them?
You tell me...........thrill?

An excellent decision

Sharksbaja - 4-23-2006 at 06:58 PM

or as one Nomad wrote



"I knew the guy, Chad Atkins. He was sitting, standing, lurching near the bar at Rancho Leonero as he let us know how he felt about the hooks to be used in the fishing tournament which would begin just 39 hours from now. ?Screw MC. Screw MC users and all the sponsors who are pushing this crap.?
He was jawjackin? about the Multi-Coated Hooks which had been declared mandatory by the tournament board. At first I thought he was just exercised about which company got the OK to provide the hooks, or the cost, about $12 per hook.
He went on. ?I?m not takin? my whole crimping kit out there, have my sleeves dancin? all over the deck, fumblin? around makin? leaders and rigs on board, while we?re supposed to be fishin?.?
I?d heard it all before. Another hard-head who didn?t get the message. Tournament fishing has come a long way from keep all the fish to tag and brag, water measure and all release, circle hooks and now the MC hooks. The new hooks were catching on. Here and at other fishing resorts the managers tell the bartenders to cook a hook or two in a c-cktail glass every shift. That way, everybody gets to watch, touch, feel, be a part of something. In sea water you can almost see the things dissolving in the glass.
Gamakatsu beat Owner by just 20 days when the hooks in the little bags full of gel hit the market. They won the big prize, got a jump on Mustad, Owner, the other big hook sellers. As tournament directors around the world learned about the strength tests, the 48 hour dissolving time, the cost, they began to get in line. The hookmakers were still taking flack about the fact that the gel packets looked like condoms, that all bets were off about hook life after the packets were opened. Members of Billfish Groups, now dedicated to the use of the hooks, could finally feel they were doing all they could do for the fishery wherever their tournaments were held, whatever game fish was the object of their contest.
I suppose every salt water fishermen, especially those who fish for billfish, wondered just how long it took his hooks, in the mouth, gill or gut of a fish he released, to rust out. Bar room chatter would always include some conjecture about days or weeks for ordinary hooks but in their hearts and minds they knew better. All of them had found, at one time or another, a rusty hook in their tackle cupboard that was still sharp and strong; a rusty relic that had never been used, was shiny and bright 10 or 15 years ago when it was purchased. Not enough to say ?well this thing?s been here in the drawer all this time, not in salt water?. Serious sportsmen are willing to buy, rig and use disposable hooks; same-day hooks make for short-time rigging but the fishermen can now check the rig, the leader, just before use, be assured everything looks good.
When ole Chad sobers up tomorrow he?ll buy some MC hooks, take his kit aboard, crimp and grumble. Later he?ll brag about using the hooks to whoever will listen to him back home."


---------------

guess who:lol:

Mike's question is a good one!!

Tomas Tierra - 4-23-2006 at 07:15 PM

I recommend using high test rope

Dave - 4-23-2006 at 07:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Supino
From the studies that I have read approximately 2/3's don't survive.
Why target and catch them?
You tell me...........thrill?


You 'sport' fishermen are missing out on viewing most of the 'noble' struggle.

Here's a thought:

Why not just lasso a wild horse, tie him to the bumper of your car and drag him down the road for a mile or two. But take care in releasing him so that other 'sportsmen' can experience the same thrill. :moon:

What studies are these?

flyfishinPam - 4-24-2006 at 03:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Supino
From the studies that I have read approximately 2/3's don't survive.
Why target and catch them?
You tell me...........thrill?


I'd like fact please. Actually I would prefer folks not target billfish but we're in business. This decision took a long time. Right now I'm working on instructions to properly release billfish so as to ensure their survival after being caught. doing the best we can down here.

Frank - 4-24-2006 at 03:37 PM

2 out of 3? I guess it depends on what fish hugger you get your numbers from. How about the odds of 3 out of 3 dont survive the filet knife? Catch , photograph and release {CPR} is the way to go. The fish that comes up in bad shape, should be eaten, not hung for a photo only. Those days are gone, thankfully. Most of the ones we catch are still lit up, and do swim away without a problem. If they are really tired, they are revived boatside with the boat in idle going forward, and are only left when they kick away on there own.

They are beautiful fish, and yes its a thrill to catch them or any gamefish for that matter. Proper size tackle to shorten the fight time and proper boat/fish handling all go hand in hand for a successful release. Your on the right track Pam!

Hook - 4-25-2006 at 10:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Supino
From the studies that I have read approximately 2/3's don't survive.
Why target and catch them?
You tell me...........thrill?


Well, you dont have to target them to inadvertently catch one. I believe I have caught three marlin on blind strikes while fishing for dorado with the smaller tuna feathers, not the larger marlin lures.

Personally, I dont target them but I will allow people who fish on my boat to target them IF THEY HAVE NEVER CAUGHT ONE. But no baiting them! Just trolling, and I will try and shorten the fight by using the "curving line in the water" trick to wear the fish out and I will chase the fish with the boat to shorten the fight time.

Catching marlin is no fun unless you happen to be the one who hooks up........and even then I'd rather catch a YT. Everybody else is reduced to watching for an extended period. No fun.

I'd also like to see those "facts" on mortality rates. I'll bet they don't exist or the methodology is flawed. The only way to determine it would be to tag a large number with some kind of beacon and monitor the fish for an extended period. Muy expensivo.

I WILL tell you that of the 15 or so marlin that I've seen caught, all but one swam away from the boat. This excludes one catch where the fisherman was insistent on keeping it, despite others expressing our displeasure. Oh well, that person wont fish on my boat again.

It's best to set a policy on release BEFORE YOU LEAVE THE DOCK! That way you can leave anyone disagreeing ON THE DOCK.

The same goes if you are chartering. MAKE SURE THE CAPITAN AND DECKHAND KNOWS THAT ANY INCIDENTAL MARLIN ARE TO BE RELEASED AND YOU DONT WANT TO BAIT ANY, if that is your preference. Be firm and repeat, as necessary.

I also commend Pam and Co. for taking this important step in conservation.

Contrary to what many environmentalists think, sportfishermen can be conservation minded.

Good on ya Hook!

Sharksbaja - 4-25-2006 at 01:15 PM

Quote:

It's best to set a policy on release BEFORE YOU LEAVE THE DOCK! That way you can leave anyone disagreeing ON THE DOCK. The same goes if you are chartering. MAKE SURE THE CAPITAN AND DECKHAND KNOWS THAT ANY INCIDENTAL MARLIN ARE TO BE RELEASED AND YOU DONT WANT TO BAIT ANY, if that is your preference. Be firm and repeat, as necessary.



This is exactly the type of responsible sea stewardship that all should take notice and part of.
Hook makes a good strong point that includes ALL aboard a fishing vessel. The shame is that it isn't mandatory and abuse of the thrill does occur.

Like I said, good on ya!

flyfishinPam - 4-25-2006 at 02:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Supino
From the studies that I have read approximately 2/3's don't survive.
Why target and catch them?
You tell me...........thrill?


According to satellite tag studies of atlantic blue marlin there is an 89% survival rate on these satellite tagged released fish. This study below is the only one that I can find and it covers 9 blue marlin with one that disappeared possibly due to a non functioning sat tag, or subsequent death after release.

After almost three hours of searching I cannot find the 2 our of 3 fatality rate you claim.

Here's the link to the satallite tag study.

http://fishbull.noaa.gov/1001/gra.pdf

Don is this your picture?

flyfishinPam - 4-25-2006 at 02:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Alley
The mortality question is a good one. Sometimes fish are hooked deep, or in the gut, or a fish "throws his stomach," like this one:



So should such "questionable" fish be released?

I should ask the Billfish Society for info on that.

Years ago I was taught that the salt environment and stomach acids took care of the hook. We used to release billfish by simply cutting the leader, so not only were the fish not handled, they could be released a bit greener. Today many grab the bill and extract the hook.


I am working on a release procedure to add to our website. Can I use this photo if this is yours? I'd like to use it as an example in the endorsement of fishing billfish with circle hooks, barbless hooks and feathers, which can prevent this kind of hookset from occuring, as opposed to J hooks and bait which seem to increase the liklihood of stomach and gut hooking.

Hook - 4-25-2006 at 02:29 PM

Thanks, Sharks.

I am also part of the ever-growing group that would JUST AS SOON NOT BRING A DEAD ONE BACK, EITHER. If one inadvertently dies, then return it to the sea. It will become food in the chain of life.

I guess if I was sure that a marlin would make it's way onto the tables of people truly in need of food, I'd reconsider. But I dont think that's what happens in Mexico; it's sold for whatever someone can get for it. I just dont want to support that but that's a personal choice. Others may make a different decision.

Hook - 4-25-2006 at 02:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Supino
From the studies that I have read approximately 2/3's don't survive.
Why target and catch them?
You tell me...........thrill?


You 'sport' fishermen are missing out on viewing most of the 'noble' struggle.

Here's a thought:

Why not just lasso a wild horse, tie him to the bumper of your car and drag him down the road for a mile or two. But take care in releasing him so that other 'sportsmen' can experience the same thrill. :moon:


Come on, Dave, your example is way more extreme than what many sportfishermen do.

All hyperbole aside, it is very likely that a fought fish can be released to live again. It's not nearly as one sided as the lasso comparison. Lots of them come off quickly, especially if you're trolling lures. I'd say that my rate of the hook sticking is well below 50% while trolling. That may be related to the fact that I am trolling a lure intended for a much smaller fish.

I'm just against targeting them because there is SOME chance that the fish may die and I dont want to kill even one. But you really cant fish for tuna or dorado without taking some chance at catching them.

We're not such a bad lot.........

Skipjack Joe - 4-25-2006 at 03:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Alley
:



Actually the colors on that sailfish indicate a fish that's been fighting for quite a while (beautiful picture though). Optimally that fish should be blue and silver during the release indicating a fish that is not exhausted. But holding it in the water with the bill in hand should be sufficient to revive it sufficiently.

I don't know what the stats are about releasing fish with everted stomachs. I hear they are able to manage to somehow swallow it back in. I have a hard picturing that. We're talking about 16" of intestine dragging behind the released fish.

Sometimes the 'authorities' on a subject don't always get it right. At one time we fishermen were told to just puncture a swim bladder on rockfish and they would swim to the bottom unharmed. I remember fishing party boats where the deck hands went around puncturing swim bladders for their clients as a form of catch and release. I notice that DFG is no longer recommending this sort of thing and there are now seasonal bans on deep water rockfishing where the pressure changes pretty much kills a caught fish.

Don Alley - 4-25-2006 at 03:55 PM

Pam

Yes that's my picture, and my fish. And you can use it. It's scanned from a disposable film camera so sorry I don't have a better (higher resolution) copy.

It was caught on the Whiskey III, Captain Arturo, out of Zihua. A really good skipper, but he hates circle hooks.

The hook in this fish was not in the stomach. I have heard that sometimes billfish regurgitate their stomachs when caught. I think this is the only one I've caught that did. I do not know for sure that it is fatal, but one would think so.

So, another lucky day for me. I got skunked again (Bob got three YT to 35 lbs, I snagged a hogfish). Now someone wants a picture of one of my fish for a "how not to fish" tutorial. :lol:

Pompano: Want to trade your golf clubs for some home-made fishin' poles? :lol:

Dave - 4-25-2006 at 04:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
All hyperbole aside, it is very likely that a fought fish can be released to live again.


And that's exactly why I detest sportfishing.

Instead of catch and release, I support catch and eat.

flyfishinPam - 4-25-2006 at 04:26 PM

Thanks Don Alley,

The photo's resolution looks fine enough so we'll use it. I have very few pictures of dead billfish in my collection and none with stomachs thrown. We never really had folks take many billfish and when they did bring them back I snapped photos for them but rarely published the images. I also detest bloody fish images so try to refrain from using those as well.

Anyway I found an interesting link on the survival rates of white marlin who had thrown their stomachs. Here it is (heavy duty reading):

http://fishbull.noaa.gov/1031/horo.pdf

this article also discusses the use of circle hooks and J shaped hooks in relation to release survuval rates.

The captains here also don't like circle hooks, including my husband. I have found that the captains often show a dislike of things they don't understand. They've become convinced that flies work, and barbless hooks too, now gotta work on the circle hooks since they all seem to love fishing with live bait so much. Hmmmm...

Hook - 4-25-2006 at 05:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
All hyperbole aside, it is very likely that a fought fish can be released to live again.


And that's exactly why I detest sportfishing.

Instead of catch and release, I support catch and eat.


Well, we do both, so you can only DETEST us half the time. :biggrin:

Frank - 4-25-2006 at 05:43 PM

Pam , its the, "No swing" just wind it tight, that takes a long time to get use to. I know of a certain Cow hunter in PV that uses nothing but circle hooks in PV.

everted stomachs

Skipjack Joe - 4-25-2006 at 05:56 PM

From Pam's reference:

Stomach eversion appears
to be a natural behavioral mechanism by which undesired
food items and remnants may be expelled, and
stomachs quickly retracted (Holts and Bedford, 1990).
In addition, the generally weakened condition of some
marlin with everted stomachs indicates that this condition
may occur in response to stress (Holts and Bedford,
1990; Pepperell and Davis, 1999).

Interesting! Thanks for the link.

One study suggests that this phenomena is somehow similar to throwing up. Other studies suggest that a fish doing this is not healthy and is often set upon by predators.

Don Alley - 4-26-2006 at 09:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
Thanks, Sharks.

I am also part of the ever-growing group that would JUST AS SOON NOT BRING A DEAD ONE BACK, EITHER. If one inadvertently dies, then return it to the sea. It will become food in the chain of life.

I guess if I was sure that a marlin would make it's way onto the tables of people truly in need of food, I'd reconsider. But I dont think that's what happens in Mexico; it's sold for whatever someone can get for it. I just dont want to support that but that's a personal choice. Others may make a different decision.


I agree.

And if you fish on a hired boat, that's a point that also must be made before the trip, and it's a tough point to make with Mexican skippers. In Zihuatenejo, the kept fish were sold, I believe for about 200 pesos/ 20 dollars. The fish in my picture here went to the fish market.

The white marlin study (thanks Pam) indicated that of 10 bleeders, 5 survived. So keeping bleeders effectively doubles the mortality rate for bleeding fish. I'd rather release them.

I want to read the striped marlin study...there's a $25 dollar charge...hmmm...

thefishaholic - 5-1-2006 at 06:37 PM

I just gotta weigh in here. Hope I don't P*%s anyone off .

If the odd's are 2-3 live or 1-5 or 4-7 that's that many more billfish that my grandson has a chance with.

There are more fisherman every year and we are getting better at our ability to travel to and pursue billfish.

We are getting better at our equipment and our techniques which enable us to hook more fish. Also and this is personal, I much prefer the taste of Dorado,Wahoo, Tuna etc. which reproduce at a much faster rate.

If I wore a hat it would be off to the folk's at Baja Big Fish.

I will be going to Cabo in September to try to finally get my 600#er and will release her unless she dies. (the first 2 realeased themselves.)
:mad:

Tomas Tierra - 5-1-2006 at 08:05 PM

Fishaholic,

If your that passionate about it...why even try for one??

September should be WFO on the other species listed above..

TT

Fish release

Cypress - 5-2-2006 at 10:46 AM

Eat 'em, sell 'em, chum 'em, toss 'em in that order. All boils down to the $$$ sign one way or the other.