BajaNomad

Going flying!

fishbuck - 5-11-2007 at 06:46 PM

Okay, I head down to San Diego to fly a Cessna 182 tomorrow. Looks like that will be my Baja plane. I don't have any time in one but I have tons of C-172 time so should be about the same.
The one little flaw in my plan is the owner does not want auto fuel used in it. I guess I'll need to carry some gas cans or something. I can probably carry 10 gal. of av gas which is about 1 hours extra. Maybe that will work.
Any 172/182 pilots out there have a solution for this?
I can make my beach camp in SQN no problem but how about BOLA and San Fransquito?
What about Loreto?

Ken Bondy - 5-11-2007 at 07:02 PM

fishbuck

I have logged several hundred C-182 hours in Baja, been often to all the places you mentioned, and I never carried any extra fuel (as in gas cans) or had to use auto gas. Always had reliable fuel at Mexicali, Tijuana, Loreto, La Paz, Los Cabos, and that was all I needed to get to and from the non-fuel spots in the 182. But that was some time ago. Maybe some of the current Nomad pilots can log in on this if anything has changed. ++Ken++

[Edited on 5-12-2007 by Ken Bondy]

fishbuck - 5-11-2007 at 07:16 PM

Thanks Ken. Wow, that's alot of Baja hours. I guess the C-182 is my plane. I used to fly a Pa-32r Piper Lance. It had about 6 hours range at 150mph or so. It was great. 4 hours range was about my personal limt. 2 hours with a plan full of passengers.

Ken Bondy - 5-11-2007 at 07:32 PM

fishbuck

The 182 is a GREAT Baja airplane. Tough, well powered, good range, good payload, comfortable. Actually most of my Baja time was in an A55 Baron, but I really enjoyed my 182 trips. ++Ken++

capt. mike - 5-12-2007 at 05:17 AM

fish buck - you will get better and more definitive answers by joining and reading the baja bush pilots web site - and no disrespect to Ken here, he is a very experienced baja flyer - my point is if you are just now getting in to it you need to absorb a ton of CURRENT info.
for this:
do not carry extra fuel out side your std. tanks.
a 172 handles VERY differently than a 182, assume you're going to go get a thorough check out, who's rental? Tom Sarvis at Brown?? the 182 is much heavier and nose heavy.............but a great baja plane.
watch your fuel burn, the 182 is more like 12-13 an hour in cruise.

on the Lance, did you mean 150 KNOTS? 150 mph is more like cherokee 235 speeds. any lance i know of does 160 knots, some more, closer to 180-185 mph!

have fun, nothing beats baja flying. you'll get hooked quickly and once that happens you'll never want to have to drive there. speed = time to burn, get it?:biggrin:

Skeet/Loreto - 5-12-2007 at 05:47 AM

Fishbuck:
The 182 is the best selection you can make, BUT, get some time on Landings, especially after coming from a 172!!!!!!!!
I was an Aviation Accident Investigator for 15 years. Repairing the Firewall on the 182 after many many Hard landings caused by the Pilots coming out of the 172 and not releazing the differance in the Weight.

I started flying to Baja in a 170 B, then a 172, then a 182. The only thing better would be the 180 cause I am a Tail-Dragger Pilot. with over 6,000 Hours total time with about 1,000 hours in Baja going to nearly every strip I could find in Baja Sur.

Do Not. Do Not, ever take Fuel with you, Check with BBP Pilots for locations of Fuel. Do at least 20 Short Field Take offs and Landing with a 182 Pilot .
Learn to use the 182 ;like a Tail-Dragger and you will really appreciate its Qualities. KEEP THE NOSE UP!!!

Good Flying always remember "Watch thy Airspeed, lest the Ground rise up and Smite Thee"'.

Skeet/Loreto

fishbuck - 5-12-2007 at 05:42 PM

Capt Mike and Skeets. Thanks for the tips! Any good pilot tries to learn all he can from the more experienced guys.
Well I just got back and put in 1 hour on the 182. What a great plane. To be honest I thought if flew just like a 172. Just heavier and climbs better. Pretty easy to fly. I need to fly 10 hours of dual to satisfy the insurance. Or have 10 hours logged. The instructor said I did good and I even made a decent landing. I just kept the speed up a little and never even felt the nose gear touch the ground.
I learned from flying the PA-32s that it's best to fly the heavy metal onto the runway.
The only thing I didn't like was the vernier throttle because you have to push that knob to make big power changes. I like the Piper style power quadrant better. But I'll get the hang of it.
Is it against the regs to carry fuel in the cabin? I don't think the 182 is a problem but the 172 might be. I don't need anymore hours other than a check-out to take the 172 to Baja. Guys have already used it for San Quintin so that's ok. But I want to make a trip to San Franquito. I don't think it has the legs for that with out some auxilary fuel. Maybe from San Felepe and back.
My other idea is to bring avgas in my truck in cans and leave it at Pedregal. I still need to drive down there sometimes anyway so why not stash some fuel there?
Anyway it was alot of fun except for the drive from Orange County to San Diego. The traffic sucked.
But now I can cut the time from the border to San Quintin from 5 hours to 2 and no f-ing border crossing at San Ysidro on the way home.

capt. mike - 5-13-2007 at 06:51 AM

this is fun :lol:

a lot of guys i know do truck in fuel to their permanent spots whenever they HAVE to drive there...the key operative word being ....drive...

and yes, hauling avgas in any thing but the FAA certified vessle is unlawful, that means if you don't have a STC'd PMA'd auxillary ferry tank, you can't do it.
and its very dangerous.

enjoy your new found love - flying baja.
border wait times??!!
you'll be laughing about those 2 hour wastes of time!!
have a good one and come to mulege! its the best - and when you're in pedregal lemme know i'll come visit you in my piper, i have a friend living there at El Socorrito, a close strip with homes, 8 south of ceilito lindo.
so email me Fish Buck.

Bob and Susan - 5-13-2007 at 07:11 AM

soooo mike

what ARE the actual cost of flying in???

Landing fees?
visas?
plane parking fees?
fees to get back into states?
actual gas and oil fees for one trip for you?

gas cans inside the cabin....

pacificobob - 5-13-2007 at 12:22 PM

are a pain in the butt....that being said, i do it with some regualrity here in alaska....be sure to use top quality containers and get the lids on tight. i keep the where i can reach them in flight to retighten the caps if needed. i really dont think the distances are so great that you will need to carry them . i have made several trip to belize in a c-182 and c-180s...always found the fuel i needed w/o cans. as for differences in 172/182....heavier, faster....but still a single engine cessna....a couple trips around the patch should have you comfortable.... as for auto fuel...i havent put avgas in my c-180 3 times in the last 20 years....runs like a top...900 smoh no jug problems..have fun!

Cypress - 5-13-2007 at 02:38 PM

If you're richer than most, having your own plane is a super way to go.:yes: No problem. Lot's of people have their own airplanes but most don't.:spingrin: Just don't make fun of people with less $.:no:

recreational flyin'

capt. mike - 5-13-2007 at 05:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
If you're richer than most, having your own plane is a super way to go.:yes: No problem. Lot's of people have their own airplanes but most don't.:spingrin: Just don't make fun of people with less $.:no:


yes, running your own, or renting one - a plane - aint cheap!
but neither is a good larger fishing boat, high end MOHO, high end truck and trailer rig/5th wheel et al........
and there are plenty here doing that! i doubt most here are rico mui..
and i sure as hell am not!

in order to be able to afford to fly privately , i/we :saint: sacrifice a lot. no other toys or hobbies at all. all my liquidity spare goes to the plane and its maintenance, and it costs A LOT!!!!!!!!!!!

but to me its worth it - nothing else you can do gives you the freedom and joy of private flight, nada period. once a flyer, you cannot quit. Read the pireps over on the BBP and get a feel for what we all feel, we are not all a bunch of richie riches.

we use it, our plane to vaca, that's all! except for some business use depending on timing and other variables.

i do not make fun of ground pounders, some of my best baja friends drive it all the time, some have flown baja with me and loved it.
i poke good natured fun at some of the inconveniences of driving, long border waits being one of my pet peeves from the several years i have under my belt crossing the TJ border by car and moto!

To give a partial answer to Bob:

Landing fees? varies, $8-10 for single at towered ports only, dirt strips free.

visas? $20 PP per 6 months use, but that may be changing and i have to get a FM3. The $20 visa for air arrival may soon be an each entry deal. That would add $40 to each trip's budget - even a weekend trip. i make 10 - 12 trips to baja a year by private plane!

plane parking fees? none at dirt strips, varies at towered, maybe $12 per over nite.

fees to get back into states? None !!! Viva USA!!! arriba!!

actual gas and oil fees for one trip for you? Well, that is hard to say. if you mean direct $$ RT phx-mulege-phx via guaymas its $XXXX direct costs.
same trip direct and indirect costs its $YYYY.

does that answer your Q??

lets just say i budget more than a few hundred dollars to do even a weekend trip.
most spend just as much gassing there cars, trucks, mohos etc to go from cal to lower baja.:lol::lol: it just takes them WAY longer to get there.:wow:

Cypress - 5-13-2007 at 06:13 PM

capt. Mike. Thanks for explaining your feelings about flying/ driving etc. Wishing you good flying weather and many more enjoyable baja trips.:yes:

fishbuck - 5-14-2007 at 03:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob and Susan
soooo mike

what ARE the actual cost of flying in???

Landing fees?
visas?
plane parking fees?
fees to get back into states?
actual gas and oil fees for one trip for you?


I know this question was for Capt Mike but I'll pass along a little info.

I'm planning a trip to San Fransquito.
Total flying time is about 6 hours from San Diego.
A little over 1 hr to San Felepe.
I'll buy fuel and pay the landing fee. I think there is a fee to buy fuel also like $15.
So about $30 in fees. The fuel will be reembursed. It's included in the rental fee of the plane.
2 hours to San Fransquito. No landing or parking fee.
2 hours back to San Felepe. This is the tricky part because it's right on the edge of the range of Cessna 172 but I think I can make it. We'll see.
If I kept going past San Fransquito I could make it non-stop to Loreto. But San Fransquito is the point of no return. It's either turn back for San Felepe or all the way to Loreto. There's no other avgas runways.
So it will be a little exciting and at $75/hour for the plane at 6 hours it's $450 + $30 for fees.
I figure I could take 2 other people and still carry full fuel and 1 bag each. So it could be split 3 ways.
I figure it's about 10 hours each way to drive to San Fransquito from the border. About $200 for fuel with my truck round trip.
So it's a little more than twice the cost but it's 20 hours driving vrs 6 hours flying. Plus flying is less tiring than driving. And funner!
I'm still looking for someone to go and help me catch yellowtail right off the beach.

capt. mike - 5-14-2007 at 05:15 AM

Fish buck - what dates is this trip? i can be at PSFO in about 2 hours direct from phx, done it a lot......don't ask me how i do that here, but you can PM me on the tricks.

now, heres a tip for your fuel - the camp operator often has car gas for moto teams and the boats, he sells it for $4 a gal. bring some octane booster, put the auto fuel in one side only - (about a half hour to an hours worth, whatever buffer you're looking for), the one with less fuel, add the OB and fly off that tank at low altitude until you got the extra range made, then switch to the avgas tank climb and go!
you need to stay low on the auto fuel due to the lower flashpoint - just keep it a 1000 agl or awl, parallel the coast, a great ride and you won't have and puckered arse holes sweating the fuel issues - and remember head winds are a given going north!

so, you renting 1st flight's plane?

elgatoloco - 5-14-2007 at 07:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
.......... and remember head winds are a given going north!.............


Not to mention it's uphill! :lol::moon:

Skeet/Loreto - 5-14-2007 at 02:33 PM

Mike: Excellent Advice on flying Low on the Car Fuel, Thought only the "Ole Timers' did that!!

How about The Strip at St. Innes. Oscar no longer selling Ava Gas from a Barrell>, Know there is plenty of Car Fuel in an emergency there.

Skeet

fishbuck - 5-14-2007 at 02:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
Fish buck - what dates is this trip? i can be at PSFO in about 2 hours direct from phx,

so, you renting 1st flight's plane?


1) Not sure yet on the dates. I'll post when I am. I'm still looking for at least one other person to go.

2) 2 hours? Isn't that like 500-600 miles from PHX?

3) Yes, FF and Tom. I'm trying to keep it quiet though. Schedule competition.

capt. mike - 5-14-2007 at 07:58 PM

no sweat Buck - we can move this to the PM section. Tom is a great guy!!
did my annuals 2 years straight when i did the weekly commute to SD from phx 2001-2004, he owns a pa 24-180 too.

About 330 NM crow flies distance is all.

use of auto fuel warning

Cap - 6-9-2007 at 09:40 AM

The first thing I would say is please don't add anything to the fuel you use. Most likely it is unnessessary, and it can be costly and dangerous. Next, what year / model of 182 are you flying. Most of the early models have an STC for auto fuel that only require some paperwork and labels. Later models had higher compression engines that ran at lower rpms to help with noise. The 0470's (engines) that have auto fuel capability are:0-470-A, -E, -J, -K, -L, -R, -S. 0-470-4, -11, -11B, -11-CI. -11B-CI, -13, -13A, -15. the airframe models that were approved were the:182, 182A, 182B, 182C, 182D, 182E, 182F, 182G, 182H, 182J, 182K, 182L, 182M, 182N, 182P.
For the sake of this conversation I will assume that you have a plane that can use auto fuel and that you will contact the STC holder and get the paperwork filed to be sure. The "flash point" referenced in this thread has little to do with the altitude you fly. Octane is the burnability of a fuel, the higher the number the less easily it will combust. Higher compression motors require higher octane fuels in order to operate without predetonation. The other aspect of avgas is it has lead in it. The purpose of leading fuels is mainly to lubricate the valves. That being said the amount of lead in 100ll is usually too high for lower compression aviation motors and a mixed diet of auto fuel is good for them. The last and probably most important thing to mention is vapour locking. A lot of auto fuels have O2 blended in them and as you climb to higher altitudes these air bubbles can cause your fuel system to vapour lock and you engine will stop suddenly. The airframes that could not pass the vapour lock test were washe out of the STC process immedeatly. Before you take advice on the use of auto fuel please ask if the person has actually run auto gas or has just heard some anacdotal stories. You can get all of the required info and file the paperwork here www.autofuelstc.com
good luck, have fun in baja.

shari - 6-9-2007 at 09:48 AM

Good for you Fishbuck...we look forward to seeing you here in Asuncion...great strip and we'll pick you up and lend you a vehicle if ya need it. Sure as heck beats the washboard road! happy flying amigo.