BajaNomad - East Cape beaches & ATV's...what's the deal?

East Cape beaches & ATV's...what's the deal?

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Cardon Man - 6-2-2007 at 04:16 PM

A question for East Cape ATV owners...What up with riding on the beach? Do you do it?...After the big PROFEPA scare a couple of years back I gave up my ATV since I mostly rode on the beach. Now I see motos everyday on the beach and am giving serious thought to buying one and hiting the sand again. It sure makes fishing and snorkeling a lot easier! Some folks tell me it's foolish to beach ride considering the PROFEPA threat. Yet it seems like business as usual out there particularly south of BuenaVista. What do you fellow east capers think?

bajadave1 - 6-2-2007 at 08:10 PM

C Man,

Does seem to be the norm again. I use mine for fishing beachside.

But............... I stay on the north side of town.

Cardon Man - 6-3-2007 at 02:22 PM

Thanks for the input bajadave.

Don't do it -- (I don't)...

Lee - 6-3-2007 at 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cardon Man
A question for East Cape ATV owners...What up with riding on the beach? Do you do it?...

Most ''tourist'' books state that it is against Federal law to ride motorized vehicles in Mexico. That said, it is common to see both gringoes and MX ATVers on the beach in the Todos Santos area. I don't know if people are aware of that law or not -- just ride where they want -- ignoring signs that warn them, etc.

I've ''let go'' of thinking that law will ever be enforced in my area. I don't have my ATV down there, but at some point, I'll haul it down. But I won't ride on the beach.

I know PROFEPA inspectors hang out between Pescadero and Todos so I know they're around. Selective enforcement might happen.

If you're white, and on an ATV on the beach, you'll probabaly get off just paying a fine. But then, you could lose your ATV.

Buy your ticket, take your chances. The more remote the area, the less chance of getting caught. Maybe. I don't think it's worth the risk. I'm conservative about the issue.

:cool:

No...

Dave - 6-3-2007 at 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee
Don't do it

Please do!

Extensive therapy has cured my obsession with ATV's on the beach and warning folks against doing it. I now live for the day when an ATV is confiscated or riders injured, preferably both.

Please continue to disobey the law and encourage others to do the same. After all, it's the Mexican way.

Ride the beach all you want. Help turn my dreams into reality.

Please :saint:

jim janet - 6-3-2007 at 08:29 PM

Well said Dave,there is an area north of Cabo where the dunes are torn up and the noise is overpowering.Welcome to HELL :?:

Death to law breakers!

Cardon Man - 6-4-2007 at 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Please do!

Extensive therapy has cured my obsession with ATV's on the beach and warning folks against doing it. I now live for the day when an ATV is confiscated or riders injured, preferably both.

Please continue to disobey the law and encourage others to do the same. After all, it's the Mexican way.

Ride the beach all you want. Help turn my dreams into reality.

Please :saint:

It should be known that in my area of the East Cape most of the law breaking anarchists that ride on the beach are expat retiree's who put along with their dogs running behind. Not very threatening and certainly not worthy of wishing injury on them.

Lots of laws get "overlooked" in Mexico. That is both the downside and upside of living here. Preoccupation with every letter of the law being followed is very gringo and is one of the main reasons I don't live in the USA.

longlegsinlapaz - 6-4-2007 at 11:33 AM

Oh!! So since it is the law that motorized vehicles aren't supposed to be on the beaches (occasionally losing oil & gasoline, breaking shells & creating obnoxious noise pollution) but that law is broken by locals & retired old gringos on a daily basis, then it's okay for everyone to do it? Is that the logic here? Join the lawbreakers rather than obey the law because it's NOT the USA? The law is the law, be it Taiwan, Cairo, USA or Baja! Why does being in Baja make it any less viable a law? Brings to mind the old question....if everyone else was jumping off a cliff.......

Most of us are guests in this country, and for those of us here under resident status, that can change in a heartbeat....or say, a ride on the beach! Respect the laws no matter where you are! :bounce:

backninedan - 6-4-2007 at 11:53 AM

Im with Dave, please ride and ride often, it increases the chances for confiscation.

Cypress - 6-4-2007 at 12:11 PM

Oh yea! Nothing goes better with a relaxed day on the beach than the loud noise and all the assorted BS of some dingbat with a wing-ding running up and down and all around you. :barf:

Offroad - 6-4-2007 at 12:30 PM

I have been visiting the East Cape for 4 years. Fewer people are violating the "no motor vehicles allowed on the beach" during my recent visits.
This area is incredible, and I hope everyone can take a step back and see the beauty. Changes are taking place, and each of us can make a difference.

amir - 6-4-2007 at 01:12 PM

It's illegal.
Just because others do it, doesn't make it right.
What's the point of having a law then? Just to discourage SOME people?
And that law applies to all beaches, not just on the East Cape.

Breakin the law...

Cardon Man - 6-4-2007 at 08:51 PM

As a super avid beach fisherman I can say without a doubt I have walked more beach miles since the first PROFEPA scare than any sane person would care for. And will continue to do so wether or not I own a moto. I like walking. It's great exercise and it's great for my dogs too. However, I look back on the ATV days with great fondness as it allowed for a fantastic multi activity day...fly fishing, bait fishing, snorkeling, hawaiian slinging all with ease...ahh those were the days.

It's interesting to note that in my experience it is purely gringo phenomenon to be so upset with vehicles on the beach that one would wish confiscation and personal injury on those that ride ATV's. I have many Mexican friends. I know not one that spends a second worrying about vehicles on the beach. In fact many drive their trucks and motos on the beach to places where they picnic, fish, gather oysters, and spend time with their families on the weekends. In researching the idea of buying an ATV I have spoken with the local police in my area and have recieved the same reply from all...riding the beach is no big deal to them as long as you don't drive fast and dangerous. Now, we all know that it is a big deal if the PROFEPA guys came along. But in the last few years I've walked untold miles on the beach, I see motos and trucks everyday, and have yet to see a PROFEPA agent.

True there are some jerks thats race up and down the beach making noise and taking chances. That is not my intention and nor is it the intention of most of the people I see on the beach here.

If the local people, police, and retired old gringos do it everday does that mean everyone should do it? Well...maybe it does. Evidently most of the community simply doesn't find this to be a issue worthy of legal prosecution.

longlegsinlapaz - 6-4-2007 at 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cardon Man
It's interesting to note that in my experience it is purely gringo phenomenon to be so upset with vehicles on the beach....

If the local people, police, and retired old gringos do it everday does that mean everyone should do it? Well...maybe it does. Evidently most of the community simply doesn't find this to be a issue worthy of legal prosecution.

I believe that has a LOT to do with the fact that gringos are more concerned with environmental impact & pristine beaches where you can actually hear the birds & the waves!! I think it's sad there hasn't been more effort to teach respect for the beauty of their own country!

amir - 6-4-2007 at 09:45 PM

This is just for reference because here we are not on the Cortez side. In Todos Santos and Pescadero areas (on the Pacific side) there are two turtle conservation groups that are very active and they give presentations in the local schools to teach children and the community at large that driving on the beach compacts the sand, and makes ruts and tracks that interfere with the nesting and hatching of turtles and their short trip back into ocean after they are born. Now, I am not a member of these groups so I don't have all the zoological data, and I don't own an ATV. There is a season for turtle nests and then for sure it would make sense not to drive. But how long do ruts and tracks stay after driving? I don't know what the answer to that is. I've seen signs in certain places (bocas) that prohbit vehicular traffic and the wording is very intimidating. Besides the rules, the fines and who to contact in cases of observed violations, they clearly state that no motorized vehicles are to proceed beyond that point.

--Amir

bajaguy - 6-4-2007 at 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cardon Man

If the local people, police, and retired old gringos do it everday does that mean everyone should do it? Well...maybe it does. Evidently most of the community simply doesn't find this to be a issue worthy of legal prosecution.

I find the above a very interesting thought.....how about this...
It's 2:30 am, you are on your way home from a late nite at the office, there is no traffic on the streets. You come to a 4-way stop sign. You can see that there are no other cars. Do you come to a full stop, or do you just drive through the stop sign.

It's against the law, but nobody is around....does that make it OK to break the law???....even if you don't get caught???

No disrespect to you Cardon, don't take it personal....it's just that the last paragraph caught my eye

Peloncito - 6-5-2007 at 12:05 AM

I do it all the time. But only to launch my mini panga or collect some driftwood for my fire pit. I have been observed by the local policia doing this and they actually just wave at me and drive on. I see "GUIDED" flyfishing groups around Punta Arena all of the time without incident.

Just not cool to buzz someone's house or camp site @ 45mph.....

Mike

Made to be broken...

Cardon Man - 6-5-2007 at 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy

I find the above a very interesting thought.....how about this...
It's 2:30 am, you are on your way home from a late nite at the office, there is no traffic on the streets. You come to a 4-way stop sign. You can see that there are no other cars. Do you come to a full stop, or do you just drive through the stop sign.

It's against the law, but nobody is around....does that make it OK to break the law???....even if you don't get caught???

No disrespect to you Cardon, don't take it personal....it's just that the last paragraph caught my eye

Well, i'm not sure i agree that is an accurate analogy. As it stands riding the beach here is very different than your 4-way stop at 2:30am. In this case the "violation" takes place in broad daylight. There are lots of people around. Mexican and gringo alike. Most of them are also breaking said law at the same time. In many cases with the local police on hand not recognizing the activity as a crime hence no one is getting "caught".

amir - 6-5-2007 at 06:48 PM

The question that begs to be asked, then, is: Why is there a law about it at all?

[Edited on 6-6-2007 by amir]

jack - 6-5-2007 at 07:37 PM

I have a motorcycle and never ride it on the beach. IMO no vehicles should be allowed on a beach. A beach should only have footprints on it, and the fewer of those the better. The Los Barrilies area is getting a little better thank goodness, but it used to be terrible. An ATV would go by you on the beach every 10 minutes. The entire beach would be covered with ATV tracks from top to bottom. One of my main reasons for going to the Baja is for the beach, I hate to see it ruined with ATV's.

David K - 6-5-2007 at 07:51 PM

There are many beaches you or most other people will never visit in Baja...

A walk on a beach is fun for some, a ride on the beach is fun for others.

ATVs & 4X4s should avoid beaches with people, such as Los Barriles, Rosarito, and other populated areas. Here is where authorities need to protect people.

Where there are no people to disturb or turtle eggs to crush, and no roads next to them, beach driving is sometimes the only way to reach a destination in remote Baja. Fisherman south of San Felipe drive the beach to check their nets, launch their pangas, and others enjoy the smooth ride whose tracks will be erased by the next high tide!

amir - 6-6-2007 at 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Where there are no people to disturb or turtle eggs to crush, and no roads next to them, beach driving is sometimes the only way to reach a destination in remote Baja. Fisherman south of San Felipe drive the beach to check their nets, launch their pangas ...

It makes sense that in these special cases where there is no other access for workers or others who must have access, that driving would be permitted. How are these esceptions regulated? If signs were posted in those places that driving is definitely not permitted, then the public would know where or where not to drive, as regulated by the law. But proper signage is not a quality abundant anywhere in Baja. I have gotten lost many times, and been confused, by the absence of signs. However, the absence of a posted sign is still not an excuse for breaking the law.

bajarich - 6-6-2007 at 02:34 PM

In previous years there was a big sign located on the beach Bahia Las Frailes that said "No Vehicles" in Spanish with a drawing of a Sea Turtle. The ATVers would just drive by it (just like they do here in Utah). This past winter the sign was gone (probably due to the hurricane) and there were ATV's running all over the beach. If you say anything, they rationalize their being there by saying they really don't do any damage, after all they only have 9 psi in their tires. It doesn't matter what the law says, after all they are in Mexico to get away from the laws in the US and Canada. I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't back in the States calling for the Mexicans to obey the US laws.

ArvadaGeorge - 6-6-2007 at 02:46 PM

I wonder how many tickets will be handed out the night of the South Campos Parade of lights? There are a lot of vehicles on the beach that night

DanO - 6-6-2007 at 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cardon Man
It's interesting to note that in my experience it is purely gringo phenomenon to be so upset with vehicles on the beach that one would wish confiscation and personal injury on those that ride ATV's. I have many Mexican friends. I know not one that spends a second worrying about vehicles on the beach. In fact many drive their trucks and motos on the beach to places where they picnic, fish, gather oysters, and spend time with their families on the weekends. In researching the idea of buying an ATV I have spoken with the local police in my area and have recieved the same reply from all...riding the beach is no big deal to them as long as you don't drive fast and dangerous. . . . True there are some jerks thats race up and down the beach making noise and taking chances. That is not my intention and nor is it the intention of most of the people I see on the beach here.

In BCN at our beach on the Pacific side, it is the rare ATV rider who is NOT driving "fast and dangerous." Going to the beach on most summer weekends and virtually all holidays means having to contend with these people -- Mexicans and Americans alike -- who turn the beach into a racetrack. Dave's POV may be a little harsh, but it does resonate. Personally, I keep my dirt bike off the beach. Like the man says, walking on the beach is good for you.

amir - 6-6-2007 at 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ArvadaGeorge
I wonder how many tickets will be handed out the night of the South Campos Parade of lights? There are a lot of vehicles on the beach that night

They might have a PERMIT to do that. You can get a permit for exceptions of the law. Here they love to issue permits even if there already is a law. They love to stamp papers and make it "official."

amir - 6-6-2007 at 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajarich

... with a drawing of a Sea Turtle. The ATVers would just drive by it (just like they do here in Utah). This past winter the sign was gone (probably due to the hurricane) and there were ATV's running all over the beach. ...

There are beaches and sea turles in Utah? And you get hurricanes there, too? Wow, I'm learning all kinds of things on this thread today... :bounce:

viabaja - 6-6-2007 at 04:27 PM

Memorial weekend looked like the Daytona 500 from SF to Percebu. Even Shell ISland was busy. Had enough and came home early.
PROFEPA could have made a fortune in fines if they were enforcing. But as Dave said, everyone from the local fishermen (netting & launching), local ATV's & tourist ATV's & dune buggy's drive on the beaches here. There are still remote beaches that would require miles of walking. It would be impossible or very dificult to carry packed coolers, tackle boxes, fishing poles, chairs, etc. to various areas of some of these beaches without 4x4 or ATV.
But who knows about the future.

mtgoat666 - 6-6-2007 at 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

A walk on a beach is fun for some, a ride on the beach is fun for others.

a walk on the beach or in the backcountry with loud, fast ATVs zipping about is miserable.

Cypress - 6-6-2007 at 05:18 PM

North of the border more and more roads back into the boonies are being gated-off :yes:

Signs read. "No motorized vehicles beyond this gate." The reason? To protect the environment and provide sanctuary for wildlife. :yes:

Very few people will walk past the gate. :biggrin:

David K - 6-6-2007 at 07:50 PM

I have this funny belief that 'Public Land' is for the public! :light:

Animals adapt very well, and afterall... we are part of this planet, too!

666, ATVs do not have to be ridden loud or fast... Many retired or handicapped folks have no other way to get about off the road or on beaches without them.

Capt. George - 6-8-2007 at 07:20 PM

fought the fight 15 years on Cape Cod re: beach vehicle access...

you know the miles and miles of beaches inaccessable to healthy persons, never mind the handicapped....... in the states and Mexico???????

punish the vilolaters and let the "users" use the beaches that are theirs, to share with the wildlife, has been going on since the end of WW II......Never mind concern for a humans "pursuit of happiness", bring your U.S. environmentall bullchit to Baja, it's priceless!

Cypress - 6-8-2007 at 07:55 PM

One of the main reasons for the closure of roads is to prevent damage to the roadbed.

One jerk with big wheels can destroy a road. :no:

Rebuilding a road isn't cheap.

Save Baja from the Mexicans

Lee - 6-8-2007 at 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George

punish the vilolaters and let the "users" use the beaches that are theirs, to share with the wildlife, has been going on since the end of WW II......Never mind concern for a humans "pursuit of happiness", bring your U.S. environmentall bullsh-t to Baja, it's priceless!

I didn't make the federal laws in Mexico. The Mexicans did. Whether they enforce it or not is their business. God help everyone if there was no law that ''no motorized vehicles on any beach in Mexico."

Baja could only benefit from US environmental guidelines.

If I ever get a chance to bust an ATVer, I'll take it.

:cool:

David K - 6-8-2007 at 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
One of the main reasons for the closure of roads is to prevent damage to the roadbed.

One jerk with big wheels can destroy a road. :no:

Rebuilding a road isn't cheap.

What is the road for then??? Freedom includes the ability to travel across our country, OUR country. :light:

Cypress - 6-9-2007 at 05:16 AM

In some areas they provide access for forest crews, fire crews and timber cutting operations. :yes:

A great deal of the property is actually owned by private individuals or corporations. :yes:

Public usage is allowed, only restriction is "no motorized vehicles".

Bob and Susan - 6-9-2007 at 05:27 AM

david

the rule in mexico is NO MOTORIZED vehicles on the beach...

"Freedom includes the ability to travel across our country, OUR country" :lol:

you are ONLY free as long as you "conform" and "produce" and "spend"

go "out of the box" and see what happens

"our country" is "owned" by businessmen NOT YOU :lol:

edit: remember its a "privilege" to drive on any road in california or other states remember the DMV rule :light:

[Edited on 6-9-2007 by Bob and Susan]

gnukid - 6-9-2007 at 06:00 AM

Even if you've done it before and enjoyed doing it, times have changed. Now we don't drive on the beach anymore because now we are aware how significant the shoreline is, now we are working to protect it and it is agreed upon, the tide line at the water's edge and up above is a place where many many animals live, where eggs are layed such as where turtles lay eggs and where so much life feeds. Even the empty shells are significant for temporary housing and protection. Don't remove them.

When vehicles and quads drive over the sand they crush and compact the sand, kill the small babies and do tremendous irreparable damage to the ecosystem.

Nowadays, when you drive to the beach you leave your cars/quads up off the beach and walk the last 20-30 meters. We find its quite easy to do, to make this small change in your behavior and even more fun. Your quads will last longer without salt damage too.

If you do drive along the waters edge, try to be aware many people who understand the damage you are doing become enraged at you, often young people are aware and older people are not since they continue their old habits. Its incredibly inconsiderate to the environment, you gain nothing and various groups have the right to impound your vehicle and will periodically do so because they have to protect the shoreline in order to protect baja's most valuable resource, shoreline sea life!

We are a community that respects sea life and we depend on sea life for food so please protect it. Its 2007 and we don't drive on the beach anymore!

Cardon Man - 6-9-2007 at 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Even if you've done it before and enjoyed doing it, times have changed. Now we don't drive on the beach anymore because now we are aware how significant the shoreline is, now we are working to protect it and it is agreed upon, the tide line at the water's edge and up above is a place where many many animals live, where eggs are layed such as where turtles lay eggs and where so much life feeds. Even the empty shells are significant for temporary housing and protection. Don't remove them.

When vehicles and quads drive over the sand they crush and compact the sand, kill the small babies and do tremendous irreparable damage to the ecosystem.

We are a community that respects sea life and we depend on sea life for food so please protect it. Its 2007 and we don't drive on the beach anymore!

I think it's wrong to assume that ATVer's don't respect sea life. For many, the ATV is a means by which to experience the shoreline through swimming, snorkeling, and shore fishing.

I have yet to see any empirical evidence proving that the ATV's weight indeed compacts the sand to such a degree that turtle eggs are damaged and the hatchlings cannot dig their way out. Has this indeed been proven? One might also ask how much weight does it take to compact the sand in such a way? What about the weight of a human being? Clearly the weight of a large man could be significant. Perhaps walking on the beach should be illegal too and we could all wish for imprisonment and injury for those who tred on the sand.

Clearly, there is such a thing as irresponsible ATV riding. Perhaps if there was a well defined track way above the high tide line that vehicles were confined to damage to the shoreline would be minimized. Of course this would also have to enforced and around we go!

for all of those who are concerned about the enviroment and the sea...Please visit the thread I started under Baja fishing and Hunting. Send an email and voice your outrage at the new long lining policy that is sure to destroy the Sea of Cortez. ATV's are the least of our worries.

David K - 6-9-2007 at 09:06 AM

Oh well, sorry! :lol:

(I have a photo of the same beach with a bus driving on it!)

Here it is...

[Edited on 6-9-2007 by David K]

905 003.jpg - 36kB

Steering the debate

Dave - 6-9-2007 at 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cardon ManFor many, the ATV is a means by which to experience the shoreline through swimming, snorkeling, and shore fishing...Clearly, there is such a thing as irresponsible ATV riding. Perhaps if there was a well defined track way above the high tide line

Really makes no difference. The law is the law.

Believe it or not, there are people who base their decision to invest in beachfront homes on not seeing/hearing ATV's... not to save the friggin turtles, or whatever. You may consider it elitist...I could really care. What I care about is enforcing the law and if it is law then my rights trump yours...period...end of debate.

Capt. George - 6-9-2007 at 11:15 AM

cardon man

hit the nail on the head....

screw all the low lifes not able to afford beach front homes, as long as we have what we want (and can afford)..........we're doing it all the time to the Mexicans in their own land. what a crock!

all these "elitists" will get bit in the ass, just a matter of time.

Frank - 6-9-2007 at 05:55 PM

Well, I guess I'll be hoofing it with my fly rod in hand chasing Rooster from shore. Please pour water on me if I pass out from the heat :lol:

Cardon Man - 6-9-2007 at 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George

screw all the low lifes not able to afford beach front homes, as long as we have what we want (and can afford)..........we're doing it all the time to the Mexicans in their own land. what a crock!

That's pretty much it amigo. Law or no law it's the beachfront gringo scene that complains the loudest and longest... Keep the riff-raff off "my beach"! And it's got nothing to do with concern for fragile beachfront ecosystems. Tearing up the dunes for your beach front home is a-ok. But those damn ATV's have gotta go! As do those pesky Mexicans having fun on the weekend.

Cypress - 6-9-2007 at 07:49 PM

Jeez, And I only thought it was about noise etc. and somebody ripping back and forth in my face on their loud wing-ding.

Now it's a class thing, rich versus poor.

As I understand it the "poor" should be allowed to rip back and forth on their $5 or $6 K rigs in my face and I'm supposed to like it? Am I missing out on something here?

gnukid - 6-9-2007 at 11:04 PM

What is the deal? you can drive all over mexico and right to the beach with all your poles and gear just not along the shoreline. Take it up a bit where its flatter 20 meters from the tideline... how many people have I picked up with a broken collar bone because they had to ride the hip of the sand til they wiped out on some quad causing thousands of dollars of damage to themselves and the bike. It's obvious, ride a little higher and don't burnout your quad in the tideline. Is that such a big deal? high side it and arroyos are fine too. Can you break some bad habit to show a little respect or is that sacrilege? "I always drive my quad at the waters edge." doh!@#$&!

Guess what, do it and you are out.

Capt. George - 6-10-2007 at 04:30 AM

the poor should be able to continue using "their" beaches as they have in the past. Gringos stealing beaches is a damn site worse then fishinermen driving on them. Have you been to Bahia de "Muertos", now Suenos, lately?

Always a scam to get your own private beach, "well I lease the Federal Zone so it's ok for me to steal a townies beach".. If it isn't vehicles and beach erosion, it's the "pity the poor piping plover" or other such bullchit. Chased from place to place in the states by this trumped up great environmental concern crap, when all the time, it's simply about greed and me, me me.

Stay in the states if you want your own gated in, walled in, purified, homogonized, paturized community........Leave Baja alone.

Cape Cod back in the eighties, just an example of the bullchit excuses used to close areas. The Dept of the Interior (Goon Squad) took half tracks and drove them up and down the beach where we used to go clamming. They used that as the study to prove how vehicles were the major cause of mortality to that environment. The area had been driven on and clammed since the forties and the clamming was great right up to the half track experiment.

As far as vehicles damaging the beach...caca de baca. Regulated and driven above the tide line actually was proven (by Columbia University) in the mid eighties, to actually prevent and slow down erosion. The beaches that no no vehicle access were eraoiding at a rate 40% greater?? The great environmental scammers just never quit.

I will continue to drive on the beaches either until the day I die or they lock me away in nut house. adios, over and out, tu-da-lu, etc., etc I'm going to go look for a beach to destroy....wadda bunch a crap!

Cypress - 6-10-2007 at 06:47 AM

And there used to be "free range", no stock laws, no hunting seasons or limits, no limits on fish. Wonder why "free range" no longer exists. Why the hunting seasons and limits? Why the fish limits? :tumble:

Al G - 6-10-2007 at 07:57 AM

Before I weigh in here, I need some info on this law.
Is it a Mexican law set by their culture or is it a law (compromise law) for the whiners of Marin county and the city SF, CA. There is not a single day passes they don't come up with a new limit law to take a little more of your freedom.
So if someone can point me to the history of the law it could help me with the respect I will show.
My feeling:
1) I agree and support the Turtle "season" protection.(With a prescribed Date)
2) Any fool who puts anyone in danger with their vehicle needs to be dealt with, with the lost of vehicle and more. (a good gang bang?)
3) I would help to form a organization to limit and reverse these whiner's California laws.
4) Protecting the little bugs, is true California numb skull thinking.

Capt. George - 6-10-2007 at 09:18 AM

Cypress tooooo many people in USA, tooo many whiners, tooo many gated community types.

if you like that crap, stay in the states. leave Baja and it's people alone. it will turn into the states soon enough.........

first house built in Baja...architects? engineers? permits? My answer from the town government, Vikingo, necesito a hammer!!!

now here come the do-gooders...."oh my God, I must have an architect, I want it to be just like in the states!!" It's so beautiful here but we really need to make some changes.........SICKOS!!!!

Stealing?

Dave - 6-10-2007 at 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George
the poor should be able to continue using "their" beaches as they have in the past. Gringos stealing beaches is a damn site worse then fishinermen driving on them.

Please tell me how you steal a beach. Much cheaper than paying for it. :rolleyes:

And where do the poor get off thinking it's "their" beach. The beaches belong to the government. They can sell them to anyone they want.

Mexico...where the rich make the rules and rules are just suggestions.

Especially the law about driving on the beach,..... right Captain?

Cypress - 6-10-2007 at 12:56 PM

If they were really poor they would be walking instead of ripping back and forth on a high-dollar quad. :lol:

viabaja - 6-10-2007 at 01:19 PM

Hear Hear for Capt. George!! All you tree (cardon cactus) hugging gated community green dudes stay in the states and leave Baja. I will continue to ride the beaches in my jeep and quads with a cerveza in my left hand!! I suspect I'll be able to do this for many years to come!

We could fix that

Dave - 6-10-2007 at 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
If they were really poor they would be walking instead of ripping back and forth on a high-dollar quad. :lol:

Enforce the law

Confiscate the quads

Back to walking.

Poof...Instant poor.

SAY NO TO ATV'S!

Beaches were made for long walks, Brie and Chardonnay.

Al G - 6-10-2007 at 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
If they were really poor they would be walking instead of ripping back and forth on a high-dollar quad. :lol:

You are attempting to sling crap without thought or consideration. Very few of the Mexican poor have a Quad and even fewer, like almost none have high dollar quads (mostly Chinese junk)
I spent 4 months on the beach this year and only saw a few Mexican and all were fishermen making a living despite willy nilly gringo made, and gringo enforced laws.
Not saying I am involve here....Be careful turning in quad riders that are not doing anything stupid, most are part of groups that track down squealers in small pueblos. Not hard to do for people who have lived there 10-20 years...only Reporting the news :biggrin:

gnukid - 6-10-2007 at 03:45 PM

What makes you think gringo whiners have set in motion action to protect beaches. Why would you assume anything except that Mexico is protecting itself, no but mexicans can make laws, run for office or vote.? That is so ethno centric to think that Marin gringo mentality had anything to with Mexico's laws about protecting the last 20-30 meters of beach front tideline?

Why can't you respect their wishes? Why would you arrogantly break the law? In the name of what? You seem to have trouble with the concept of respecting the law of the state and the community? Is that the source of your obstinance, rebel attitude? Cool.

bullchit

Capt. George - 6-10-2007 at 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George
the poor should be able to continue using "their" beaches as they have in the past. Gringos stealing beaches is a damn site worse then fishinermen driving on them.

Please tell me how you steal a beach. Much cheaper than paying for it. :rolleyes:

you know as well as I. lease the federal zone, all it takes is money....something the local Baja people are lacking. people leasing the zone are just thieves helping thieves getting their own whining way.

And where do the poor get off thinking it's "their" beach. The beaches belong to the government. They can sell them to anyone they want.

really? you think the Mexican Gov't gave two chits about Baja before the arrival of the sniveling gringos? the beach belonged to the Mexican people that settled this desert and it still should!.

Mexico...where the rich make the rules and rules are just suggestions.

What a shock, it's different in the states? enlighten me. If it isn't the wealthy few flocking things up, then it's the enviro-freaks that have (unfortuneately) weaseled their way into Baja

Especially the law about driving on the beach,..... right Captain?

has been unenforced for years, till the whiners from the states arrived.

stay in the states...go bird watching and screw your own people instead of native Baja people. :barf:

Cypress - 6-10-2007 at 04:23 PM

Let's see now? :?:

I don't like loud, obnoxious machines.

This makes me a whiner? :?:

Guilty! And I'd rather watch birds than quads any day of the week. :tumble:

Cardon Man - 6-10-2007 at 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Enforce the law

Confiscate the quads

Back to walking.

Poof...Instant poor.

SAY NO TO ATV'S!

Beaches were made for long walks, Brie and Chardonnay.

Apparently, the Mexican community for the most part does not care to enforce the law. I spent the day fishing along the coast here at East Cape by boat. I saw many ATV's and lots of trucks, jeeps etc. on the beach. Almost all of them Mexican owned. This is their country. And they work damn hard to have those ATV's and trucks so that they can have fun with their families on the weekend and holidays. Do they deserve to have their vehicles confiscated? I think not. The local police feel the same way. As did PROFEPA until the beach front gringos started raising a stink about the issue.

Before anyone starts throwing stones at me...Let it be known I walk the beach and I'm giving thought to buying an ATV to facilitate my beach fun be it snorkeling or fishing. Beaches are indeed for long walks etc...but they are also for ATV rides and good times.

And what about the local Mexican fishermen who launch their boats with trucks on the beach? They are breaking the law too. Do they deserve to have their vehicles conficated because a gringo doesn't want to see them on the beach?

Frankly, the beach front homes of the "bourgeoisie" are far more of a disturbance to my Baja experience than any ATV or truck. We should confiscate them and once and for all leave one stretch of beach empty for every human to enjoy, Mexican and gringo alike. On foot or by vehicle.

SOME RULES JUST HAVE TO BE RESPECTED

amir - 6-10-2007 at 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cardon Man

And what about the local Mexican fishermen who launch their boats with trucks on the beach? They are breaking the law too. Do they deserve to have their vehicles conficated because a gringo doesn't want to see them on the beach?

The local Mexican fishermen of the old-fishing-pueblo of Todos Santos belong to one of two co-ops that have permits to operate their trucks on the beach to launch and beach their boats. Nobody else is allowed to launch their boat from that beach. The general public drives out to Punto Lobos when the panga fleets return to buy fresh catch right off the boats. The Punto Lobos beach is also a popular swimming and picnicking spot for locals and foreigners alike.

Besides the towing trucks that work the pangas and the trucks that ferry fishermen and supplies, everybody else parks on the lot before the dune. Everybody waks over the dune to the surf line. -- Amir

Capt. George - 6-11-2007 at 03:39 AM

not everyone is physically capable of walking to their particular piece of paradise...........how about those far out beaches that are not locked up by beach front homes? Should they just stay unvisited/unused?

The Federal Zone: would it be a problem for you to have people camp, fish and party (without quads) in front of your beach home? Answer that question, truthfully, and you and I will realize where you're coming from.

Stop the caca de baca....this whole debate has to do with satisfying your own selfish wants.

Cardon Man - 6-11-2007 at 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George
not everyone is physically capable of walking to their particular piece of paradise...........how about those far out beaches that are not locked up by beach front homes? Should they just stay unvisited/unused?

The Federal Zone: would it be a problem for you to have people camp, fish and party (without quads) in front of your beach home? Answer that question, truthfully, and you and I will realize where you're coming from.

Stop the caca de baca....this whole debate has to do with satisfying your own selfish wants.

Now there's the rub Capt.! The question you pose, if answered honestly, really defines the 2 sides of this issue. I dare say anyone who dumps 6 or 7 figures on a beach front home would rather not see anyone other than friends and family camped out in front of their property.

oxxo - 6-11-2007 at 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. GeorgeI will continue to drive on the beaches either until the day I die or they lock me away in nut house.

Quote:

Originally posted by viabaja
I will continue to ride the beaches in my jeep and quads with a cerveza in my left hand!!

Beam me up Scotty, there is no intelligent life on this planet....only Neandertahls.

Capt. Kirk, out

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by amir

Quote:

Nothing like stating outright lies....The ONLY Mexicans or gringos that park above are the ones with cars that cannot go through the soft sand.

Cardon Man - 6-11-2007 at 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
Nothing like stating outright lies....The ONLY Mexicans or gringos that park above are the ones with cars that cannot go through the soft sand.

Good point amigo!! ain't that the truth. :lol:

David K - 6-11-2007 at 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oxxo

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. GeorgeI will continue to drive on the beaches either until the day I die or they lock me away in nut house.

Quote:

Originally posted by viabaja
I will continue to ride the beaches in my jeep and quads with a cerveza in my left hand!!

Beam me up Scotty, there is no intelligent life on this planet....only Neandertahls.

Capt. Kirk, out

oxxo and others, there are beaches in Baja that you have not or likely never will see that are not like the ones you know... They are just sand, no people, no turtle eggs, and no critters are killed if a 4WD or ATV is on the beach.

Irresponsible behavior like the kind you experienced or imagine is not condoned by myself or most of the others that have commented here, I would bet.

As I said before, beach driving should not be allowed on populated beaches where there is a chance of people getting hurt...

Racing, noise, etc. is not what we do on the beach either... I drive on the beach to get to my camp site as there is no other way and I have camped there since 1977... and it is on a coastline that has been driven on for more years than I have.

Others who have posted here drive or ride ATVs on the beach to get to a fishing spot or to see sea shells or to just enjoy the beauty. Not loud or fast (if there even were other people to hear)...

Intellegence is using your brains and making a decision for yourself that harms nobody else. Do you guys smoke pot? Because that's illegal too! Sould there be a thread with us non pot smokers lecturing users?

Have you ever driven faster than the posted 80 kph speed limit, or any speed lilmit? Again, that's illegal... but if you harmed no one else were you not just enjoying some freedom?

Each year more laws are created and each year we lose a little more freedom... Baja is a place that we go to enjoy the freedom, the outdoors, and life in general... Don't make Baja the same as the U.S. or Canada with laws controlling every move we make!

Alan - 6-11-2007 at 08:09 AM

I love it! ATV’s crush turtle shells but walking is okay! Have you ever wondered why they are called flotation tires? Have you ever noticed that footprints left in the sand are always deeper than ATV tracks?

The basis of this whole argument is money! Unfortunately those who have it make the rules. Always have, always will. It doesn’t matter if it is in Baja or the US. It is simple supply and demand. The more rare or exclusive something is, the greater its value by those who covet such things and the greater profit that can be realized by those who have such things. I live in a National Forest and we have our own “Save Our Forest Association”. They cite every environmental reason in the world to block any new development. If honesty still had any value today they would simply rename their organization as the “I Got Mine Association”. Not one of them that belong to this group has offered to demolish their own house so the property can be returned to its natural state.

I love these people that claim to move to Baja because it is so different from home and then set about to make it exactly like home. Please just be honest. You are nothing more than an opportunist that is looking to maximize the return on your investment. I am not even suggesting that this is a bad thing, just don’t try to BS the rest of us about your concern for the environment.

Right On

Capt. George - 6-11-2007 at 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alan
I love it! ATV’s crush turtle shells but walking is okay! Have you ever wondered why they are called flotation tires? Have you ever noticed that footprints left in the sand are always deeper than ATV tracks?

The basis of this whole argument is money! Unfortunately those who have it make the rules. Always have, always will. It doesn’t matter if it is in Baja or the US. It is simple supply and demand. The more rare or exclusive something is, the greater its value by those who covet such things and the greater profit that can be realized by those who have such

things. I live in a National Forest and we have our own “Save Our Forest Association”. They cite every environmental reason in the world to block any new development. If honesty still had any value today they would simply rename their organization as the “I Got Mine Association”. Not one of them that belong to this group has offered to demolish their own house so the property can be returned to its natural state.

I love these people that claim to move to Baja because it is so different from home and then set about to make it exactly like home. Please just be honest. You are nothing more than an opportunist that is looking to maximize the return on your investment. I am not even suggesting that this is a bad thing, just don’t try to BS the rest of us about your concern for the environment.

The Got-Miners...ain't they something special! Montauk Point NY, Narragansett RI, Newport RI, Block Island, Nantuckett, The Vineyard, Cape Cod and it's National Seashore (Recreation Area) not National Park, Florida Keys National Marine Sactuary, Save the Key Deer.........got enough money, build anywhere you want.....mangrove, don't trim unlless you have the money for an impact fee, then just rip them all out and build your "Trophy Home"

The Got-Miners" how about the "Bull-chitters"?

Capt. George - 6-11-2007 at 08:28 AM

oxxo, stay in your gated community lifestyle, please stay out of Baja. I lost more brain cells in New York City fires then you possess.........

Neanderthal indeed.

shari - 6-11-2007 at 09:20 AM

Whoa this IS a can of gusanos for sure....IMHO it's all about consideration...not the law. One of the things I love about it here is that "laws" are flexible and only enforced if it becomes a problem. Then you get to explain the situation, talk about it...maybe grovel a bit if necessary, apologize or whatever then work it out. For example....drinking...I mean steady pounding cervezas with loud music and a few guys staggering around laughing, shouting and peeing....is not legal on a city street. But it is done all the time here...usually in front of places that arent' occupied such as was the case with our new beach house...but now with guests there, it is just not acceptable anymore so t;he police go and ask them to move their party down the beach a bit where there aren't any houses...they don't get busted...just readjusted...seems fair to me. Now, I love our beaches because they are quiet, very few people, no quads either. I remember one day in San Rouqe I was so annoyed when a large group of campers arrived and unoaded their ATV's and began zooming up and down and doing doughnuts on the beach...that sucked big time. I don't mind the fishermen that drive on the beach to get home to avoid the washboard road...they come and go slowly and don't race up and down all day...there are several paths and roads for ATV.s and would be better if they stick to those or at least be mindful of the folks enjoying the beach. It's all about respect, and not being a pain in the trasero of course. I would love to have a quad to get to San Roque and back with less gas so I can't say I hate those noisy things but if you have em....por favor please be smart and considerate. Oh by the way, we have a PROFEPA guy here in our village who does drive around alot and enforce the law...real nice guy though and very reasonable.

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 09:33 AM

Well, I for one have, just went along with what has been happening and took my chances....Now as I see them grab more and more(30 meters back...100 yards...give me a break) now it is time to kick some butt the other way...Thank you Gru-kid, now I am actively searching for ways and means to defeat you...Don't hummmm to loud I am right behind you. Stay as unreasonable as you are and it will be easy to recruit defenders of RIGHTS.
Anyone that claims gringos did not participate in this law banning vehicles on beaches are liers.
Being good stewards of the earth is one thing...Most of you are just JOKES.

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
Whoa this IS a can of gusanos for sure....IMHO it's all about consideration...not the law. One of the things I love about it here is that "laws" are flexible and only enforced if it becomes a problem. Then you get to explain the situation, talk about it...maybe grovel a bit if necessary, apologize or whatever then work it out. For example....drinking...I mean steady pounding cervezas with loud music and a few guys staggering around laughing, shouting and peeing....is not legal on a city street. But it is done all the time here...usually in front of places that arent' occupied such as was the case with our new beach house...but now with guests there, it is just not acceptable anymore so t;he police go and ask them to move their party down the beach a bit where there aren't any houses...they don't get busted...just readjusted...seems fair to me. Now, I love our beaches because they are quiet, very few people, no quads either. I remember one day in San Rouqe I was so annoyed when a large group of campers arrived and unoaded their ATV's and began zooming up and down and doing doughnuts on the beach...that sucked big time. I don't mind the fishermen that drive on the beach to get home to avoid the washboard road...they come and go slowly and don't race up and down all day...there are several paths and roads for ATV.s and would be better if they stick to those or at least be mindful of the folks enjoying the beach. It's all about respect, and not being a pain in the trasero of course. I would love to have a quad to get to San Roque and back with less gas so I can't say I hate those noisy things but if you have em....por favor please be smart and considerate. Oh by the way, we have a PROFEPA guy here in our village who does drive around alot and enforce the law...real nice guy though and very reasonable.

Shari...I am totally with you..

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 10:13 AM

Now that this has gotten this far, I would like to suggest we find out how many people would sign a request to PROFEPA (or who can permit this)for a annual permit to use ATV's to fish the coast as the east coast (US) does.
No racing
No disturbing people on the beach
No riding during turtle season
Just get to your fishing spot and back...

Cardon Man - 6-11-2007 at 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
Now that this has gotten this far, I would like to suggest we find out how many people would sign a request to PROFEPA (or who can permit this)for a annual permit to use ATV's to fish the coast as the east coast (US) does.
No racing
No disturbing people on the beach
No riding during turtle season
Just get to your fishing spot and back...

I'm all for that idea. :light:

Cypress - 6-11-2007 at 10:38 AM

Shari, You pretty much expressed my feelings about this issue. :yes:

Thanks.

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Shari, You pretty much expressed my feelings about this issue. :yes:

Thanks.

Since her views seem to me to be moderate and compromising, as do mine, your "pretty much" leaves a lot of room to be wrong.
Care to elaborate :biggrin:

Capt. George - 6-11-2007 at 03:00 PM

and what "fisherman" does not feel this way?

bureaucratic bullchit pushed by the Got-Miners/Enviro-Wackos......

Permits and corresponding fines when the beach is abused.

Cypress - 6-11-2007 at 03:27 PM

elaborate? "Pretty much" is a term of expression. It means, as far as I know, not totally, but more or less. Now more or less could mean a lot of things. :?:

More, to my knowledge, means "additionally". Less, if my understanding is correct, means to a smaller extent.

Some folks would be happy to see a fully paved road the full length of the Baja peninsula, within 100yrds of the tide line. Of course, they'd have to have some sort of paths, driveways, ramps, or rails that would allow easy access through the last 100yrds. :bounce:

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
In some areas they provide access for forest crews, fire crews and timber cutting operations. :yes:

A great deal of the property is actually owned by private individuals or corporations. :yes:

Public usage is allowed, only restriction is "no motorized vehicles".

I could go on and on....Let us take this one. What are you saying
1) my state can charge me to use my ATV off road....
2) I should not use it off road
Is that what you mean by "more or less"....or "pretty much"
Your response, meant to evade, is child like at best. No one has even suggested anything near what you stated.
elaborate? "Pretty much" is a term of expression. It means, as far as I know, not totally, but more or less. Now more or less could mean a lot of things. More, to my knowledge, means "additionally". Less, if my understanding is correct, means to a smaller extent. Some folks would be happy to see a fully paved road the full length of the Baja peninsula, within 100yrds of the tide line. Of course, they'd have to have some sort of paths, driveways, ramps, or rails that would allow easy access through the last 100yrds.

Try not to be silly this time. Do you agree fishermen should be giving permits with the enforcement of common decency and sense???

JZ - 6-11-2007 at 04:05 PM

Shari had some very good comments on this topic. I tend to agree with those.

Dave, your first comments on this were way out of line (wishing injury on ATV riders). I really hope you don't think like that for real. If you do I think a whole lot less of you.

BTW, this topic (ATV's on the beach) set the record for most posts on the San Carlos, Sonora board (http://sancarlosmx.mywowbb.com/forum1/2699-1.html).

Cypress - 6-11-2007 at 04:07 PM

Yes! I agree with the permits etc. :yes:

Childlike and silly? Suppose so. I've just got to live with.

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 04:17 PM

When nailed down you are gracious. Thank you...

Alan - 6-11-2007 at 06:00 PM

Permits? Sorry I can't support that. Its would just be more government bureacracy. So now the guy with the permit interprets this to mean he now has the right to be just as obnoxious as he so desires and he has a permit to prove it. :lol:

Instead of making new laws to govern ATV's or trying to nail everyone with an unreasonable existing law of "thou shall not ride on the beach regardless of how, where or when", why not do as Shari suggested and the Mexican police seems to have already implemented unofficially and that is to simply use a different, more realistic law such as disturbing the peace or reckless endangerment to control abusers?

ATV's allow ALL of us who so choose to experience areas of the peninsula we could never see any other way.

One of my personal peeves are the "Lake Lice" (PWC) when I'm enjoying an afternoon of fishing. Of course they are a pure kick in the burro when I am the one riding one of them. :lol:

We have all invested in Baja with our time or money for a reason and a big reason for many of us was to escape some of the insanity and complete departure from logic created by the Vocal Minority in our home countries.

Al G - 6-11-2007 at 06:34 PM

Well said Allen and I agree except for the permit issue. I see it as protection from the individuals that will stop at nothing to maintain their "I got here first" status under the guise of Protecting the environment.
I am truly a protector... a Steward of the earth...hell you can even call me a turtle hugger, but we all must be reasonable..we need the permit to protect us from the "I got mine" protectors :biggrin:

Shari area has a good thing going, and if all areas were the same, I would have no case....it just is not so where the money has landed.
Maybe not there much longer...

gnukid - 6-11-2007 at 10:18 PM

I sense concensus here about off roading and about the situation with the law. I like to 4 wheel drives in baja in fact I like it tremendously. I like to work to fix some older classic rigs which I enjoy off road ranchin' and to the beach. Though honestly, I don't see many americans anywhere I go. I do see lots of Mexicans who are quite vocal and I read the signs and try to get along with everyone. After many years I got the message, I can do whatever I want just dont go the last 20 meters unless you need to launch or take out. It doesn't bug me, and really the times I have gone near the water I feel a little silly since I know if I get stuck playing silly down there that would be dumb.
http://vps.ooto.com/042007/pages/P4200011.html

[Edited on 6-12-2007 by gnukid]

oxxo - 6-12-2007 at 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
oxxo and others, there are beaches in Baja that you have not or likely never will see that are not like the ones you know... They are just sand, no people, no turtle eggs, and no critters are killed if a 4WD or ATV is on the beach.

Well, if we don't know about these places, then there wouldn't be any need for this discussion.

This last weekend, my spouse and I were sitting in plain sight on the sand at the surf line, toasting the setting sun and enjoying the solitude. A gringo pendejo adult came driving along the beach on his ATV with cerveza in his left hand and 4 kids sitting on the fenders of the quad. He buzzed us going about 20mph with 10 feet to spare on a beach that is about 100 yards wide. They all laughed at scaring us as they drove off. I guess they were headed to the nut house.

Neanderthals! Get all the ATV's off the beach.

David K - 6-12-2007 at 10:52 AM

oxxo, I would be just as angry as you if that happened to me... ATV riders are not all idiots, but perhaps all idiots are ATV riders!

Capt. George - 6-12-2007 at 11:08 AM

why didn't you chase him down and beat the chit out of him for scaring your wife???

Perhaps my friend, the neanderthal in you has been beaten out of you by this whining, cry baby society we've (unfortuneately) created.

I, neanderthal or not, would never do that to someone sitting and enjoying the beach.....It's rude, gross, ignorant and unjust, however, don't judge the tre for one bad apple.

cap'n g

oxxo - 6-12-2007 at 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George
why didn't you chase him down and beat the sh-t out of him for scaring your wife???

I, neanderthal or not, would never do that to someone sitting and enjoying the beach.....It's rude, gross, ignorant and unjust, however, don't judge the tre for one bad apple.

cap'n g

You mean my husband? How can I chase him down when he is going 20 mph. The best I could do was the finger.

I appreciate the fact that you would not do that. I think everyone who has posted here has to appreciate the perspective from which they post. I do not want to spoil anyone's fun. But I expect to be treated with equal respect. What I have related is really what happened and it is not an isolated incident. That's what makes some of us so adament. There are MANY bad apples. It does not breed understanding when you write that you are going to ride down that beach with a cerveza in my left hand and off into the nut house, come hell or high water. That is a bit dogmatic. On the other hand it is a bit dogmatic for me to say death to all ATV's because of a bunch of bad apples. Can't we all just get along?

Let's all work together on this to reach a compromise, I know there is something we can agree on. Mutual respect promotes mutual understanding.

We can add a condition...

Al G - 6-12-2007 at 10:17 PM

With a permit...$40 say...You must also have a Mexican fishing Licence...$44...not needed for shore, but all real fishermen have them... would put you in the position of being a true fisherman.
1)Tackle with you at all times.
2)Track off the beach to pass people on the beach. (min. 20 meters)
3) Maximum 25 KPH if people are present.
4) Park/ride 10 meter above high tide
5) Violation of any above...$10,000 Paso fine and suspension of permit for one year.
6) second violation....Lost of quad...tackle and 100,000 peso fine or deportation..
Think I am serious??....hell.., I think running a red light should be a $10,000.00 Dll. fine...Acting stupid with a vehicle should be a $100,000.00 Dll. Fine...would not be long before alot of CHP would have to retire :biggrin:

ask me why...easy no income to support them. OK OK I know they are funded by the state, but some municipalities would suffer greatly and that is why they do not want people to stop running lights etc..
WoW where did that rant come from :lol:

Capt. George - 6-13-2007 at 03:55 AM

"can't we all just get along?" didn't that burrowipe Rodney (something or other) make that statement.. Now there's a real role model for someone to quote?, the cops should have simply shot him rather then just giving him the beating he deserved................

sorry I'm off track but I worked all the major ghettos in NYC in the 70's....just the remembrance of an buttcrack like that sends me off. Dealt with too many of them to feel even an ounce of pity..try spending the night surrounded by hundreds of Rodneys rioting (& of course, looting)..If your son/daughter were a police officer, how would you like them to deal with garbage like that every working day? A cops life is worth much more.

You quote Rodney and complain about people driving on beaches, seems to me, something is really off-balance in your order of priorities.

"I" never mentioned driving down the beach with a cerveza in my hand, never have, never will, But, I assure you, I will continue to drive on the beaches until they lock me up.

Dedicate "swimming beaches", walking accessability only, for those that do not want to look at vehicles. Permits I really do not favor but would not put up a huge fight if they keep the outer beaches open to vehicles.

Fines, I have no problem with, as long as they address the marooons ruining it for everyone. Fishermen are few and far between that act with disrespect towards the environment....we are the users only, not the abusers. It hurts us the most when areas are shut down for reasons that are neither scientifically justified nor problem solving. nuff said.

Yankee go home!

Lee - 6-13-2007 at 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George
"I" never mentioned driving down the beach with a cerveza in my hand, never have, never will, But, I assure you, I will continue to drive on the beaches until they lock me up.

Hope I get a chance to bust your sorry butt. Catch you on my beach, go to jail! Your attitude is everything that is wrong with Baja. Bet your a gringo.

:cool:

oxxo - 6-13-2007 at 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George
"can't we all just get along?" didn't that burrowipe Rodney (something or other) make that statement

No I made the statement. I can tell from your vocabulary, you must be from Bakersfield.

Quote:

"I" never mentioned driving down the beach with a cerveza in my hand, never have, never will,

No, I never said you did. Your alter ego VIABAJA said it

Quote:

But, I assure you, I will continue to drive on the beaches until they lock me up.

I look forward to the day. With your attitude they should throw away the key.

David K - 6-13-2007 at 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee

Quote:

Hope I get a chance to bust your sorry butt. Catch you on my beach, go to jail! Your attitude is everything that is wrong with Baja. Bet your a gringo.

:cool:

Lee, that's bad attitude you're showing towards a fellow Baja amigo...

How about addressing all the grafitti painted in Baja, specially on the boulders near Cataviña (not by gringos). I mean they actually make it a family outing to go out and mark up some beautiful rocks that have sat there for 10 million years or more! This is supposed to be a 'Natural Area' called El Valle de los Cirios... Then there is the habit of just throwing all their trash out the window or leaving a campsite with all the beer bottles, garbage and dirty diapers behind... GROSS!

At least the tire tracks on a beach are erased by the next high tide!

viabaja - 6-13-2007 at 12:28 PM

OXXO, I don't know you and you don't know me. So please keep my name out of your posts.

Everyone has an opinon and that's great. But this has gotten somewhat personal and I don't why. I think the general consensus is that we who come to Baja, and I have coming since 1958, is because of what Baja is. I've seen alot of changes in the 49 years. Some good, some bad. So when I said "driving down the beach with a cerveza in my left hand", the metaphor should have been apparent to all. That is, no restrictions, the abilty to enjoy a hot sunny day slowly touring deserted beaches. This is not something that can be done in the states. There is no promotion of alcohol. I could just have said water.
So when these restrictions that many would like to see in place occur, I'll pack it all up and go elsewhere. As always everyone should be respectfull of other people on a beach. Give them wide bearths and don't cross in front. Don't camp near other people, etc.. Regretfully, many Americans and Mexicans don't follow that. It is what is! Like those M80's going off at 2 AM!

Cypress - 6-13-2007 at 12:35 PM

viabaja, I agree with your perspective on all this. :bounce:

OK, I admit it. I'm not perfect.

Lee - 6-13-2007 at 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee

Quote:

Hope I get a chance to bust your sorry butt. Catch you on my beach, go to jail! Your attitude is everything that is wrong with Baja. Bet your a gringo.

:cool:

Lee, that's bad attitude you're showing towards a fellow Baja amigo...

How about addressing all the grafitti painted in Baja, specially on the boulders near Cataviña (not by gringos).!

I agree David. I do have a bad attitude. And if GEORGE would just chill out, cut the profanity towards other Nomads, cut the CRAP about cops shooting Rodney King, and all the rest of the Feo Americano grandstanding, I'd have a better attitude, here.

I understand and share EVERYBODY's feelings about seeing Mexicans throwing garbage out of car windows, leaving their garbage on the beaches, and a major complaint I have, and don't talk about much and don't want to get worked up over, is MEXICAN ATVers on beaches, drunk, speeding, and reckless. And then there are the MEXICANS who speed, drunk, and recklessly in their pickups (Toyota and Ford among others). And less than the sound and disturbance, I have to end up focusing on them, watching to make sure I don't get run over. Holidays, weekends, sometimes, and you get the picture. Go to another beach? OK. I'll give up walking to my beach, and drive 5 miles down the road.

And you know what? Ultimately, all I'm really concerned about is my safety. It's their beach, their turtles, their country -- so I really have no attitude about it.

I DON'T see gringoes doing any of this. I've experienced this group as just put-putting down the beach, maybe a group of 4, but it's not a big deal. I can live with it. And they DON't get crazy.

My major problem is something I've witnessed over the years and I get an attitude about it: gringoes who come down thinking ANYTHING GOES! Mexico? No laws! The wild West. ACT OUT and do and say anything that comes to mind. Manners? Didn't learn it at home. Buffooons!

When PROFEPA removes any laws about motorized vehicles on beaches, I'll shrug and think... OK. I really don't care whether gringoes agree with the law or not. It's a law, as there are many laws in Mexico, and I respect it and hope that other's do too. I work at NOT judging the law breakers and mind my own business -- unless my safety is at jeopardy.

If I'm in Todos Santos at 2 a.m., and come up to a stop sign, I STOP! Just the way I am. People in this situation can do anything they want.

I get the impression that because certain laws aren't enforced consistently, they aren't on the books. Or, in the judgment of some gringoes, they are above the law.... or, and here's where I have a problem, there is contempt and disrespect for the law -- and maybe it's because it's a MEXICAN LAW. You tell me. I don't have answers for anyone but me.

And I KNOW there are two laws in Mexico. One for Mexicans and one for Gringoes. I didn't create this. Don't blame me.

:cool:

Muy Interesante!

Cardon Man - 6-13-2007 at 04:32 PM

wow. this thread has really gotten interesting. Seems like this whole ATV/beach issue brings to light a number of different perspectives we Nomads have regarding the Baja experience. Keep up the good posts fellow nomads. and keep up the honesty, i'm lovin it! Hope you are too.

oxxo - 6-13-2007 at 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by viabaja
OXXO, I don't know you and you don't know me. So please keep my name out of your posts.

Quote:

Originally posted by viabaja
Hear Hear for Capt. George!! All you tree (cardon cactus) hugging gated community green dudes stay in the states and leave Baja. I will continue to ride the beaches in my jeep and quads with a cerveza in my left hand!! I suspect I'll be able to do this for many years to come!

Dude, you said it you got to live with it!

BTW, David K is this any way to treat a fellow Nomad?
"All you tree (cardon cactus) hugging gated community green dudes stay in the states and leave Baja. "

Hipocrisy is alive and well on Baja Nomad!

Capt. George - 6-13-2007 at 05:29 PM

lee, I'm glad you're in Todos Santos, a good place for you. Please stay there and be happy.

chill out out and go for a nice ride on the beach........

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