BajaNomad

Las Flores & San Juan Mine Railroad (1895-1910) II

David K - 11-11-2009 at 09:49 AM

This was first posted in 2005... now condensed and with additions:

The railroad line runs 5.4 miles from the ruins of Las Flores (south of Bahia de los Angeles) to the bottom of El Terminal canyon where a cable bucket tram line brought the ore down from the San Juan mines high atop the sierra.

Here is the railroad bed at Las Flores heading south...




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Here is the railroad bed near the terminal (south end)...




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As the railroad approaches the terminal platform, the line is elevated via this ...




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Here is the terminal platform where Dr. Abraham Vasquez ('Doc' of Camp Gecko) shows me where giant wheels were once mounted at the bottom of the cable tram line. Here the ore was dumped into train cars for the trip north to Las Flores where the ore was processed...




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Doc and I pose by one of the tram tower timbers as we hike up the canyon...




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One of the ore buckets that litter the canyon bottom (the good stuff has already been removed and some is on display at the museum in Bahia de los Angeles...




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In 2003 my daughter and I went back for another look...



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GPS and Mileage Notes (map datum NAD27 Mex.)

0.0 Camp Gecko Driveway (4.1 mi. so. of pavement/ town): 28º53.96', 113º31.85'

5.7 The old Las Flores jail is 0.3 mi. to right.

8.1 Top of long grade, a poor road continues ahead (28º46.98', 113º32.00'). Main road to Punta San Francisquito bends left.

11.1 Park where railroad crosses, now going from south to north, uphill. Platform at 28?44.73', 113?32.54' a short walk north from the road.

The auto road continues a short distance ahead to the trail going up Terminal Canyon to the San Juan mines. Before the cable tramline, pack animals brought the ore down the mountain.

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The museum of Bahia de los Angeles... on the outside, to the right, is a display of the railroad and ore tram bucket system... In front of the town plaza is the locomotive that was left at Las Flores and an ore car that came from the smaller gauge train line up at San Juan...




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Years ago, at Las Flores...



Erle Stanley Gardner, 1966.



From Marv Patchen's 'Baja Adventures' (1970's photo)



Railroad map from this book...





Rail bed, looking south 2009.



Looking north, 2009.



The railroad bed, just west of the Las Flores jail...



2002 notes:



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Map for reference.... stars placed by Las Flores and San Juan mines, terminal platform noted with arrow. Mileages from Las Flores (east of jail house on graded road) to the junction with the road that continues uphill to the terminal (2.4)... and then 3.0 on to the terminal on the minor road (overgrown brush will scratch vehicle).

It should be noted that the original topo map is incorrect with the placement of the graded road south of Las Flores (I doctored the map to correct its location), and in naming Arroyo el Terminal: It is labled at the next arroyo south of where it really is! Too faint to see in this reproduction...

Google Earth allows you to see the railroad line route as it circles at the terminal, otherwise hidden by vegetation on the ground... next!







[Edited on 4-13-2011 by David K]

TacoFeliz - 11-11-2009 at 10:08 AM

Any idea what the small concrete building (remains) at El Terminal platform was for? Engine for tram maybe? And while we're on the subject, do you know if it is possible to make it to the San Juan mine site from the San Gregorio side?

David K - 11-11-2009 at 11:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TacoFeliz
Any idea what the small concrete building (remains) at El Terminal platform was for? Engine for tram maybe? And while we're on the subject, do you know if it is possible to make it to the San Juan mine site from the San Gregorio side?


On the platform was a giant wire wheel, horizontal just beyond where the ore buckets droped their load into the train cars... Only the block/ rock base platform remains. Doc told me about the wire wheel that was once there.

Talked to Jose last July about driving to San Juan in my Tacoma... he said no problem. Maybe talk to John M and Neal... I know you guys (Perko) had a flat that stopped the attempt back a few years ago! Photos at http://vivabaja.com/neal I would love to go!!!

See the Discover Baja article about San Juan in the issue before last. Photos look great.

From Space!

David K - 11-11-2009 at 11:28 AM

Terminal Platform at south end of railroad.

Here ore buckets came down the mountainside using a cable tram (see L.A. Bay museum for display).





Here's a look at the mountain the ore came down from... Originally using mules, then the cable tram bucket system.



Here is the San Juan Mine, on the top of the 4,200' mountain where gold and silver was extracted... there were other mines, as well... A tiny railroad line went from here to the top of Terminal Canyon where the ore buckets were loaded.



Tiny railroad line in the San Juan Valley... elev. 3,836'



Here's the top of the cable tram line route...



From the bottom of the tramline, the Las Flores Railroad took the ore to Las Flores for processing into ingots...

Here is where the San Francisquito road makes a bend, 2.4 miles from Las Flores and the road and railroad to the terminal:



Here is near Las Flores at the north end of the railroad line:

David K - 11-13-2009 at 08:15 AM

Anyone going to Las Flores or the terminal for a fresh look at this? Please post photos!

Wahoo - 11-13-2009 at 10:06 AM

Thanks David, again!!!

Rene D.

David K - 11-13-2009 at 05:15 PM

You like this stuff? Great!

Barry A. - 11-13-2009 at 05:25 PM

David------------it's the BEST!!!!

Thanks again.

Barry

Paulina - 11-13-2009 at 06:56 PM

"The museum of Bahia de los Angeles... on the outside, to the right, is a display of the railroad and ore tram bucket system... In front of the town plaza is the locomotive that was left at Las Flores and an ore car that came from the smaller gauge train line up at San Juan..."

I'd like to mention Herman Hill, gold miner extraordinare, and give him credit for the display outside of the Museo. He knows the mines and their workings like the back of his hand. A wealth of information, IF you can get him to give it up. Most people will only know what they can read about them and his adventures by reading his book, "Baja's Hidden Gold". I belive he still has copies available for sale at his home in Bahia.



This past summer we were talking about his mining work when he showed me how he would eat the beans from the Ironwood tree while he was working. Keeping the beans in his mouth helped keep his thirst in check.



Regarding the locomotive display in the town square; it saddens me that some of the young people of Bahia de Los Angeles show, in my opinion, a lack of pride in their town's herritage, and respect for those who paved the way for them and their families so long ago by working the mines, enduring the harsh living environment, putting the town on the map.

Don't get me started on my graffiti rant.



P<*)))>{

David K - 11-14-2009 at 10:38 AM

Thanks for posting the photo of the train in town... It was so sad to see grafitti sprayed on the train last time we were in Bahia (New Years '09). I hope your photo is newer in that the painting on the train was removed.

The cart behind the train in your photo is from the San Juan railroad, on top of the mountain... it is a narrower gauge than the engine from Las Flores.

[Edited on 11-14-2009 by David K]

Paulina - 11-14-2009 at 11:26 AM

The train photo was taken Aug. '09.

[Edited on 14-11-2009 by Paulina]

David K - 11-14-2009 at 12:10 PM

Good... thanks.

TacoFeliz - 11-14-2009 at 03:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K

On the platform was a giant wire wheel, horizontal just beyond where the ore buckets droped their load into the train cars... Only the block/ rock base platform remains. Doc told me about the wire wheel that was once there.

Talked to Jose last July about driving to San Juan in my Tacoma... he said no problem. Maybe talk to John M and Neal... I know you guys (Perko) had a flat that stopped the attempt back a few years ago! Photos at http://vivabaja.com/neal I would love to go!!!

See the Discover Baja article about San Juan in the issue before last. Photos look great.



Thanks, DK. We'll let you know when we're headed that direction.

David K - 11-15-2009 at 10:18 PM

Sounds great... I hope I can join you!

David K - 11-25-2009 at 10:52 AM

Here is a fine example how the activities of man in the desert make interesting discoveries, 100 years later! Also, with so many people living in Las Flores back then, how utterly clean the area is of their time there. Only one building and some graves remain.

David K - 7-29-2010 at 05:21 PM

Interesting places so close to civilization... yet so far away... The desert preserves so much that we can still enjoy the activities performed 100 years or more ago!

airmech - 7-29-2010 at 08:59 PM

David, I wish we had seen this before we went up there in April. We found the tram cable in the canyon and plenty of timbers....now we have the answers to what we were finding. bg
OH yeah, we always remember the camera when we find cool stuff........never before:(

David K - 7-29-2010 at 09:28 PM

De nada... this is why I bump up the old stuff I posted on occaision. I know it is valuable to some Nomads who may have missed it before.

Take a stroll through the Nomad Historic Interests and Literature forum to see many years worth of cool stuff posted!

elgatoloco - 8-30-2010 at 09:25 PM

bump. RIP airmech. :(

BajaBlanca - 4-13-2011 at 12:38 PM

I so wish that Baja had a train all the way north and south ....

larryC - 4-13-2011 at 02:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TacoFeliz
And while we're on the subject, do you know if it is possible to make it to the San Juan mine site from the San Gregorio side?


My first trip up to the mine was through Borja, out towards Gregorio, and then we turned to the left where the rock corral and water well are just before Gregorio. We were on quads, we pecked along occasionally finding the old road to the mine. After about 5 miles or so we could go no farther. We started hiking up the mountain, again finding the original trail. We hiked for less than 3 hours and made it to the rock building near the mine site. We could see the tailings from the upper mine shaft just above us, but we were out of time, we lookrd around for 30 miutes or so and then had to head back to Borja, where we had parked the truck. As far as driving up there, I doubt that it is possible. I made a second trip up there with Carolia from the museum in LA bay, she arranged for guides and some pack animals. We did a 3 day trip and got to explore the mine pretty well. Truely facinating how they got all that heavy equipment up there. It must have been torturous. I'd love to go back. Either fly or with animals but never again from the BoLA side. There is a clearing up there that you can land on, in fact Capt Munoz did it with ES Gardener. On google earth there is a picture that I took outside the lower mine shaft, just click on the blue dot. I'll try to find some other photos and post them here.
Larry

David K - 4-13-2011 at 02:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by larryC
Quote:
Originally posted by TacoFeliz
And while we're on the subject, do you know if it is possible to make it to the San Juan mine site from the San Gregorio side?


My first trip up to the mine was through Borja, out towards Gregorio, and then we turned to the left where the rock corral and water well are just before Gregorio. We were on quads, we pecked along occasionally finding the old road to the mine. After about 5 miles or so we could go no farther. We started hiking up the mountain, again finding the original trail. We hiked for less than 3 hours and made it to the rock building near the mine site. We could see the tailings from the upper mine shaft just above us, but we were out of time, we lookrd around for 30 miutes or so and then had to head back to Borja, where we had parked the truck. As far as driving up there, I doubt that it is possible. I made a second trip up there with Carolia from the museum in LA bay, she arranged for guides and some pack animals. We did a 3 day trip and got to explore the mine pretty well. Truely facinating how they got all that heavy equipment up there. It must have been torturous. I'd love to go back. Either fly or with animals but never again from the BoLA side. There is a clearing up there that you can land on, in fact Capt Munoz did it with ES Gardener. On google earth there is a picture that I took outside the lower mine shaft, just click on the blue dot. I'll try to find some other photos and post them here.
Larry


I would appreciate seeing your San Juan photos, Larry...!!

You have seen the heavy machinery on display at Jose's home (at Mision San Borja)? He told me it was trucked down from San Juan... Perhaps the road has been worked on. With the price of gold getting so high, I think you may see many old mines re-opened with the better technology for extracting the gold and silver today.

The San Juan mine was an American venture that was shut down because of the Mexican revolution of 1911, they did not run out of the metal.

bbbait - 4-13-2011 at 02:30 PM

Good info! Thanks Larry

larryC - 4-14-2011 at 08:07 AM

Here is a shot from inside the mine. The shafts are extensive. The lower shaft goes in over 1000' with shafts to the right and left at one place. Then the shafts goes up hundreds of feet to the upper shaft, and down to who knows where.

larryC - 4-14-2011 at 08:17 AM

And another of an intact ore bucket just laying in the desert where the cable finally collapsed.

David K - 4-14-2011 at 08:58 AM

Awesome!

larryC - 4-15-2011 at 08:07 AM

A few more from the trail to mine from the Borja side.


This is as far as we could go on the quads. All up hill from here. About a 2 1/2 hour hike.

larryC - 4-15-2011 at 08:10 AM

Along the way, the tallest barrell cactus I have ever seen.


larryC - 4-15-2011 at 08:13 AM

The rock building at the top of the trail. Probably was a storage building or assay building. Carolina calls it the mine "foremans" building.

David K - 4-15-2011 at 08:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by larryC
A few more from the trail to mine from the Borja side.


This is as far as we could go on the quads. All up hill from here. About a 2 1/2 hour hike.


Wow... what year was that Larry?

Here is the piece of mine machinery on display at San Borja (Jose's museum)... Jose told me it was brought down from San Juan... I wonder when? I got the impression from Jose it was possible to drive my Tacoma up there... this was in 2009.

Thanks for showing the photo of the road!



[Edited on 4-15-2011 by David K]

larryC - 4-15-2011 at 01:48 PM

We walked up there from the Borja side in '05 probably. I would be very surprised if someone had cut a road into there since then. I went up there in '07 from the Bahia side and there was no road up there then. Not sure what Jose might have been referring to but it would be a good idea to ask him again. I am not fluent in spanish. The road we forrlowed in '05 up from the rock corrals, was mostly washed out but in some places you could still see the road bed. It was at least 8' wide. From what I understand from some of the old timers, they used that road to supply the mine by horse or mule drawn carts and wagons. Looking at it from google earth earth, I can't see any road up there. But the image date I get is '04 so it wouldn't be there.
Larry

David K - 4-15-2011 at 05:58 PM

Neal Johns and his group started to drive up about 10 years ago... one of them with a BFG got a flat... and they had arranged for mules from Jose to ride up to Aguaje de San Juan... which is on the Golfo Camino Real, east of San Gregorio... So, they didn't drive any closer to San Juan after the flat was fixed... See http://vivabaja.com/neal for photos...

larryC - 4-17-2011 at 07:53 AM

I am just really curious why Jose would say that it would be no problem to drive your Tacoma up to the mine. Maybe he knows a way.
Larry

David K - 4-17-2011 at 10:41 AM

Maybe he was being polite? If there isn't any mine company exploring the site to re-open, I am sure the road is tough... You can see it easily on Google earth... but you can't make out wash-outs and boulder in the way on it!

larryC - 4-17-2011 at 02:10 PM

Can you post a shot of the google earth view of the road up there? On my google earth it just shows the foot path that we hiked.
Larry

Paulina - 4-17-2011 at 03:03 PM

Larry,

If you ever get a wild hair and feel like making the trek again, we'd be up for the adventure someday. More than a day run though, so there's plenty of time to explore.

P>*)))>{

David K - 4-17-2011 at 03:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by larryC
Can you post a shot of the google earth view of the road up there? On my google earth it just shows the foot path that we hiked.
Larry


I will do that Larry... in the meantime, are you the Larry mentioned in this excellent Discover Baja article with photos of San Juan, by Carolina?:

http://www.discoverbaja.com/pdf/apr09.pdf

ROAD TO SAN JUAN (passable by 4WD or not?)

David K - 4-17-2011 at 06:24 PM

First two, north at top:





Facing San Juan, above the road:












Here the trail or road climbs a hill and meets a better looking road (see Jcn.) that drops to the bootom of a gorge and ends (maybe a water source for the town?).



Top of the grade, Valle de San Juan:


See the foundation of a 2 room building, on the left.

North at top:


A higher view, see the end of the Las Flores Railroad line: yellow pin at the base of the mountain range.


Close up of the main mine entrance.


The small gauge railroad line that goes north from the mine along the east side of the valley. This went to the top of the cable tram bucket line that took the ore to the bottom of the mountain where the larger railroad took the ore to Las Flores.


Another higher view.

Looking East:


This high view looking east shows the entire distance of the road to San Juan.

Looking North:

High view, north at top.

[Edited on 4-18-2011 by David K]

larryC - 4-18-2011 at 08:36 AM

Yes I was on the trip with Carolina, we had a great time. The road you are seeing up to the mine is actually little more than a foot path. Back when the mine was operational the road was used by mule carts to haul supplies up to and down from the mine. The rock corrals and the well are where the mules were kept. When I went up that trail the last time there were still places where you could make out the old road bed, but most of it was hunt and peck with the quads to get through to where the road starts up the mountain. From there it was up hil hiking all the way. The old road is in the bottom of a wash most of the way so lots of the road is missing due to washouts.
I am now thinking about putting together a trip up to Aguaje in the next week or two. Best to do it now before it gets too hot.
Paulina, you and Dern are welcome to come if you want.
Larry
PS David, Your google earth seems to have much better picture quality than my version, do you subscribe to a pay service or something?

David K - 4-18-2011 at 10:10 PM

Hi Larry,

Nope, just the free stuff... what are you drinking today in Bahia? ;):wow:

The area over San Gregorio is still not high resolution, so you cannot make out the old ranch house there on Google...

In 2001:



50 years earlier:



2001:



50 years earlier:



Very special to connect with Baja's past!

David K - 9-6-2012 at 09:18 AM

Bump in the road!