BajaNomad

FMTs being phased out, Mexico getting serious about FM-3s.

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Hook - 12-14-2009 at 09:24 AM

OK, I chose not to put this in the News section as it is second hand information and it is verbal. But the source is the head of the INM office in Guaymas.

Mexico is supposed to be very close (supply your own definition of close) to doing away with the FMT in favor of something that will be called an FMM. It will be a plastic card, with magnetic personal info, THAT YOU WILL TURN IN EACH TIME YOU LEAVE THE COUNTRY. What we are hearing from multiple sources is that YOU WILL NO LONGER BE ABLE TO STAY IN MEXICO MORE THAN 180 DAYS ON A TOURIST TYPE VISA. The plastic card info will be entered into the computer upon issue and departure and you will receive a credit if you didn't use up your 180 days. After you use up the 180 days, YOU ARE DONE IN MEXICO. There will be no immediate renewal.

The INM official also said that Mexico is going to begin treating individuals w/o proper papers much more harshly; immediate deportation.

Stop me if this sounds like any other countries you've heard of.

They are also looking much more closely at persons working w/o an FM2-3 Lucrativo AS WELL AS PERSONS WHO HIRE INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT LUCRATIVO STATUS. Immediate deportation in these cases as well, supposedly.

Naturally some conspiracy theorists are blaming this on 1-Obama, 2-the Council on Foreign Relations, or 3-the international bankers bent on ruthless domination over all. But the more logical reason is that there are many foreign residents of Mexico who violate the intent of the FMT and should actually have an FM3.

Your reporter must admit falling into this latter category.........:rolleyes:

The difference to Mexico's coffers is about 100.00US per person; even more for an FM3 Lucrativo.

That's the word via the cactus telegraph.

Now let the skepticism begin!!!!!!!!:smug:

[Edited on 12-14-2009 by Hook]

arrowhead - 12-14-2009 at 09:41 AM

Don't know if it's true, but sounds like it is aimed at getting rid of all the Gringo riffraff. The people who cannot even show the minimum monthly income to qualify for an FM-3. I don't think it would work in Baja, due to the 3-day rule for tourists between the border and Ensenada, but it could help much on the mainland and Baja California Sur.

Hook - 12-14-2009 at 09:47 AM

My gut feeling is that its all about........................MONEY.

Calderon is trying to pull in more dinero for the govt. as Mexico's dependency on oil revenues continues to hurt.

Taco de Baja - 12-14-2009 at 10:22 AM

Where exactly do they expect us to turn these things in as we leave Mexico? Will there be a drop box at the border to toss them in with all our personal; info on the mag strip? Do we have to double back after we cross in an endless loop? What a nightmare for the tourists who only take a couple of 5-10 day trips to Mexico per year.

Why the heck should there even be a “Tourist Card”?
In a “Free World” a Passport should suffice to temporarily go to any country where a passport is accepted.

Passport charge $100 good for TEN years and is renewable
Mexico Tourist Card $100 for 180 days, can’t be renewed.....:rolleyes:

David K - 12-14-2009 at 10:25 AM

Sounds like more reasons for potential Baja vacationers to not go to Baja... more bad news for the people of Baja!

I hope they understand if they want the card scanned or turned in upon leaving Mexico, they will need a drive up booth on the exit lanes at the border.

oldlady - 12-14-2009 at 10:27 AM

Probably wouldn't turn them in, Taco, the card would be kept and swiped upon entry and exit with days deducted that one is in Mexico until the 180 is used up. Like a subway fare card.

[Edited on 12-14-2009 by oldlady]

David K - 12-14-2009 at 10:31 AM

The point is for us who drive, how does the card get swiped upon leaving Mexico, if there is no booth along the road/ lanes before entering the U.S.

No way can everyone wiggle near the Mexico entry border, find parking, walk to the INM office, then go back and get into the exit line... I am picturing Tijuana, but Otay, Tecate or Mexicali would be similar nightmares in logistics.

[Edited on 12-14-2009 by David K]

Taco de Baja - 12-14-2009 at 10:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
Probably wouldn't turn them in, Taco, the card would be kept and swiped upon entry and exit with days deducted that one is in Mexico until the 180 is used up. Like a subway fare card.


If you think the border wait (coming and going) is long now...Just wait until they install the card readers at the entry and exit points.

Dave - 12-14-2009 at 10:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The point is for us who drive, how does the card get swiped upon leaving Mexico, if there is no booth along the road/ lanes before entering the U.S.


Simple. Mexico controls the lanes leading up to the border. Magnetic readers could be placed anywhere along this route. Additionally, the U.S. is also very interested in which of its citizens travel to and from Mexico ;) so I could envision a partnership whereby cards could be swiped at the inspection booths.

Don't laugh. Mexico and the U.S. are already partnering in sharing of financial and criminal data. It can, and probably will happen.

David K - 12-14-2009 at 10:48 AM

Exactly Dave... my point is there is no system in place now and they would need to build it. So, first they pick on innocent pilots (like 'steekers' reported here) to harass... Now, it will be us in cars... Isn't big government fun? :rolleyes:

Dave - 12-14-2009 at 10:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
Probably wouldn't turn them in, Taco, the card would be kept and swiped upon entry and exit with days deducted that one is in Mexico until the 180 is used up. Like a subway fare card.


If you think the border wait (coming and going) is long now...Just wait until they install the card readers at the entry and exit points.


It would probably be along the lines of a 'toll/pike' pass. Delay would be minimum, if any.

oldlady - 12-14-2009 at 10:59 AM

Wow...such pessimists. Swiping a card takes 2 seconds. The DC metro runs on them, thousands of people swiping and rarely slowing their walking/trotting pace. My guess would be they would phase it in..logically to start with airports. Yes, the auto traffic on the border zones is a different cat, I suppose if everyone quit trying to smuggle people and stuff it might speed things up there.

surebought - 12-14-2009 at 11:10 AM

I was 15 years dependant on Mexican Immigration. Every year the renewals. I don't think much has changed since then. This is a section of the Interior Ministry that has very little budget. They don't go out and look for people. They don't have the recourses. You have to nearly be a serial killer with a lot of local denuncias for them to get all worked up about you. Everything is a lot of paper work for them. They would rather just stand around. I was in the office once and a looked at a the file cabinet. One of the paper tags indicated "Expulsions." I asked if could look in those files while I was waiting. Sure go ahead, we are going to be a while with your stuff. These were some pretty rough looking hombres in those files. Not at like a American Retirees.

Santiago - 12-14-2009 at 11:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
Wow...such pessimists. Swiping a card takes 2 seconds. The DC metro runs on them, thousands of people swiping and rarely slowing their walking/trotting pace. My guess would be they would phase it in..logically to start with airports. Yes, the auto traffic on the border zones is a different cat, I suppose if everyone quit trying to smuggle people and stuff it might speed things up there.


Looks like E.T. is back....
Getting the card might take a bit longer than getting an FMT; everything would have to be entered via a keyboard and what would the guy do with his stamp? But maybe then you could pay a the same place with a credit card and not have to go to a bank. You know, I say this only half-joking, they should let a handful of Nomads design the system - we could make it work.
Hook: you forgot the tri-lateral commission.

CaboRon - 12-14-2009 at 11:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Santiago
Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
Wow...such pessimists. Swiping a card takes 2 seconds. The DC metro runs on them, thousands of people swiping and rarely slowing their walking/trotting pace. My guess would be they would phase it in..logically to start with airports. Yes, the auto traffic on the border zones is a different cat, I suppose if everyone quit trying to smuggle people and stuff it might speed things up there.


Looks like E.T. is back....
Getting the card might take a bit longer than getting an FMT; everything would have to be entered via a keyboard and what would the guy do with his stamp? But maybe then you could pay a the same place with a credit card and not have to go to a bank. You know, I say this only half-joking, they should let a handful of Nomads design the system - we could make it work.
Hook: you forgot the tri-lateral commission.


I have NEVER seen a touch typist at immigration, only hunt and peck :lol:

Haven't you wondered why it takes a week to renew :lol:

oldlady - 12-14-2009 at 11:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Santiago

Looks like E.T. is back....
Getting the card might take a bit longer than getting an FMT; everything would have to be entered via a keyboard and what would the guy do with his stamp? But maybe then you could pay a the same place with a credit card and not have to go to a bank. You know, I say this only half-joking, they should let a handful of Nomads design the system - we could make it work.
Hook: you forgot the tri-lateral commission.


Au contraire, mon ami. Trying to be optimistic. I absolutely agree with you. Lots of technology gurus here with more modern skills than mine that can figure out how to solve all the gitches in order to reach the goal. In a nanosec.
Getting the card would probably take a bit longer...the first time.

I was at Immigration last week for my annual renewal. They had a spiffy new brochure of many many pages on their regulations. I didn't read it all, spent a moment while waiting and read the TOC and a couple of sections. My sense was that it was focused on immigrants from Central America (Nic. And Gauat.) with nothing specificly directed at
immigrants from US and Can. It may be premature to get our feathers in a fluff.

ELINVESTIG8R - 12-14-2009 at 12:58 PM

That will go over like a fart in church. Not very well!

Bajahowodd - 12-14-2009 at 01:06 PM

On one hand, the process as described would bring Mexico into the present century as far as having some ability to track foreigners. And unless and until the US eases its immigration process, there's probably no going back. It disturbs me that more than a couple dozen countries of the EU allow free passage throughout without a visa. And they speak myriad different languages. On this side of the pond, Canada, US and Mexico jst seem to keep making the process more complicated.

Since specific details have not yet been shared, I do wonder about the FM-T alternate as to the 180 days, and just how long there might be of a wait in between being eligible for your next entry. It could, theoretically wreak havoc on frequent tourists, which, in turn would impact the economy in the negative.

rts551 - 12-14-2009 at 01:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Where exactly do they expect us to turn these things in as we leave Mexico? Will there be a drop box at the border to toss them in with all our personal; info on the mag strip? Do we have to double back after we cross in an endless loop? What a nightmare for the tourists who only take a couple of 5-10 day trips to Mexico per year.

Why the heck should there even be a “Tourist Card”?
In a “Free World” a Passport should suffice to temporarily go to any country where a passport is accepted.

Passport charge $100 good for TEN years and is renewable
Mexico Tourist Card $100 for 180 days, can’t be renewed.....:rolleyes:



Taco
SHould the same rules aply to al countries including the good old US of A??

rts551 - 12-14-2009 at 01:20 PM

OK, all you guys that feel picked on. What rules should be applied...

that would be applied to all countries equally?

Bajahowodd - 12-14-2009 at 01:25 PM

For me, open borders for folks with passports, with the focus being shifted to employers who hire illegal workers. Criminals, of any nationality should be a police issue.

Mexicorn - 12-14-2009 at 01:33 PM

HOT OFF THE PRESS-
Right now President "Harry O" of the Footprinters organization in Rosarito Beach is involved in negotiations with Mayor Hugo Torres, using Mr. Raposa as an intermiedary of course and the government of Mexico in a bold new endevor.
The card will be issued by the Footprinters and those that dont have one will not be allowed into his club house or Mexico for that matter. The card only costs $30.00 and allows you access into his private club house where you can drink his drinks and listen to the misic of "Julio Acosta."
All others will be ejected from Mexico and not allowed to clean the Rosarito PD bathrooms anymore.

Taco de Baja - 12-14-2009 at 01:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
OK, all you guys that feel picked on. What rules should be applied...

that would be applied to all countries equally?


1) If you are a tourist, get a passport

2) If you want to temporarily work/live in a foreign country, get a visa.

3) If you want to become a citizen in a new country, apply…And set it up like Australia: no job, no other income, no citizenship…If there are too may applicants, tough luck, there are probably 2.5 Billion+/- people worldwide who would like to have US citizenship; there's just no way to absorb, or even process that many people.

rts551 - 12-14-2009 at 02:31 PM

Andthe process for the tourist passport would be the same in all countries?

OK I agree

Too early to speculate

toneart - 12-14-2009 at 03:36 PM

as to how it will be implemented, but you can probably count on it defying logic.

My take on the reasons:
1. Revenue- They have learned how to be bureaucrats from us. They have learned all about taxes, zoning laws, building permits, etc. etc. They have mastered the Art of red tape! Again, the implementation is not necessarily the objective. For example, permits are seriously required; inspections and standards are a joke. But anytime they (or we) can officially shake down people, there is lots of money in it. In the case of Mexico there is often some clandestine, bonus revenue to compensate for low pay, which is unofficially condoned from the top to the bottom.

2. Payback- Why shouldn't they turn our immigration policies back around on us? Maybe they should build a fence. :rolleyes: There are attitudes, resentment and sensitivities involved that until now has been pretty one sided but has been building up.

3. Job Protection and control- There are lots of gringos living and working illegally in Mexico.

4. National Security- They also need to know just who is entering. They have enough criminals of their own without absorbing our fugitives.

Hook - 12-14-2009 at 03:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Passport charge $100 good for TEN years and is renewable
Mexico Tourist Card $100 for 180 days, can’t be renewed.....:rolleyes:


The current Mexico Tourist Card is about 23.00US.

An FM-3, which will cost about 120.00 is good for one year. It is renewable.

What is the US charging for foreigners to stay 6 months in the US? I honestly dont know.

[Edited on 12-14-2009 by Hook]

Bajahowodd - 12-14-2009 at 04:54 PM

We, the good guys, charge a non-refundable application fee of $131. Now, does give or take twenty bucks sound more reasonable?

And if rts551's last post was in response to mine, passports are issued by the country of origin. Just saying that if that country is ok with who you are, then we should be also. Sorry, but the last administration in DC took total advantage of the post 9-11 anxiety in this country and while so many things they did were targeted at making huge amounts of money for their friends, they also initiated what has become an ever increasing difficulty for Americans and Mexicans to connect.

Have any idea as to how onerous a $131 fee is when if they say no, too bad? If I show up at the San Ysidro/ Tijuana border and seek an FM-T, if for some reason the guy says no, I don't lose a dime.

k-rico - 12-14-2009 at 05:09 PM

Just turned my papers in for FM-3 renewal today and since it's my 5th and final year I asked for information and instructions for applying for a FM-2. The gal said come back next month because "everything is changing" and they'll then have the new rules.

Sorta fits with the rumors that are flying around.

BTW, the FM-3 renewal fee was 1,296 pesos - hundred bucks.

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by k-rico]

rts551 - 12-14-2009 at 05:14 PM

My post was directed at those people who want free and easy access to Mexico (and other countries) but do not reciprocate. $$ are not the only issue for Mexican nationals to get a "Tourist Permit" for the US. They, at a minimum must make an appointment at the immigration office after they have filled out the paper work and then go for an interview. Based on the interview and the appropriate paperwork (including proof of employment etc) they may then get a visitation visa. Then again they may not. Whole process takes multple trips the immigration folks and many times months.

Someone like FDT can fill in the blanks, but would you like to be on the other side of the fence so to speak.

rts551 - 12-14-2009 at 05:16 PM

We are in our last year of the FM2. wonder if that changes as well

DENNIS - 12-14-2009 at 05:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico

BTW, the FM-3 renewal fee was 1,296 pesos - hundred bucks.



FM2 is more. With an agent, I just renewed for $395. I have to stand while I type. It still hurts.

Wow!!!

Dave - 12-14-2009 at 05:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
I just renewed for $395. I have to stand while I type. It still hurts.


That's almost 2 1/2 times retail.

Would I know him? One of my tribe, perhaps? ;D

Bajahowodd - 12-14-2009 at 05:27 PM

Again, if the EU can get this right, why can't we and our North American neighbors? Just seems to me with ongoing globalization, the whole concept of making it more difficult and expensive to travel is mierda de caballo.

rts551 - 12-14-2009 at 05:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico

BTW, the FM-3 renewal fee was 1,296 pesos - hundred bucks.



FM2 is more. With an agent, I just renewed for $395. I have to stand while I type. It still hurts.


Yes but after five years you can sit again:o ...If they don't change the rules:biggrin:

DENNIS - 12-14-2009 at 05:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551

Yes but after five years you can sit again:o ...If they don't change the rules:biggrin:



Actually, three years. That 395 was for a renewell. I think it was 500 to get started. OUCH again.

CaboRon - 12-14-2009 at 06:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by toneart
as to how it will be implemented, but you can probably count on it defying logic.


Payback- Why shouldn't they turn our immigration policies back around on us? Maybe they should build a fence. :rolleyes: There are attitudes, resentment and sensitivities involved that until now has been pretty one sided but has been building up.



Sounds fine to me :lol:

akshadow - 12-14-2009 at 07:12 PM

Americans who come to Baja and work without a permit should get deported. Just like people who come to the US and do the same thing.
why should we expect to break or ignore their laws and not expect something to happen. If the the laws/regulations can just be ignored we should expect to pay mordida for the privilage.

I would rather have real laws and regulations and expect consistent enforcement.

rts551 - 12-14-2009 at 07:18 PM

and should it be just as difficult to get a tourist permit?

norte - 12-14-2009 at 07:34 PM

why should it be the same? We need to protect ourselves and keep terrorists from crossing the border. Mexico just wants more of our money by imposing ridiculous travel requirements on us . Don't they realize that without our dollars they probably wouldn't be what they are today.

David K - 12-14-2009 at 11:50 PM

In the real world, to get more business (more $$$) you make it as easy as possible for your customers to get to your door.

Mexico (Mexicans) really have a lot more to gain from U.S. tourism than the other way around... Because millions of Mexicans have entered the U.S. and never went home, we are naturally a bit more concerned. Americans go to Mexico, spend money and go home... a tiny fraction of 1% may stay behind after their 180 days expires... to continue to enjoy the place, but it is doubtful they are there to have an anchor baby or free medical care.

So, it doesn't matter what other countries charge for visas or the bureaucracy involved... If the government of Mexico wants its citizens to have as much tourism dollars as possible (given all the other issues going to Mexico involves), they need to make a trip to Mexico easier and more enjoyable... less red tape, less fees and taxes.

LESS MONEY TO GOVERNMENT, MEANS MORE MONEY TO THE PEOPLE...

Then the government gets more from the increase in business and services from taxes paid by people who prosper.... More business means more jobs, and the growth is unstoppable ... Well, until government gets greedy and raises taxes, fees, etc.

Too bad some in government didn't study Economics 101, instead of Karl Marx!

oldlady - 12-15-2009 at 07:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
LESS MONEY TO GOVERNMENT, MEANS MORE MONEY TO THE PEOPLE...


Too bad some in government didn't study Economics 101, instead of Karl Marx!


You must be as old as I am. The text has been updated to reflect "collective good", comrade.

Packoderm - 12-15-2009 at 07:56 AM

I think that $200.00 U.S. for entry fees for me and my son just might be enough to keep us from crossing of the border. It would be hard to justify the expense. It cost exactly $200.00 for a 10 year visa to India.

Diver - 12-15-2009 at 08:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
I think that $200.00 U.S. for entry fees for me and my son just might be enough to keep us from crossing of the border. It would be hard to justify the expense. It cost exactly $200.00 for a 10 year visa to India.


Sure, just drive across the border to India. :rolleyes:

wessongroup - 12-15-2009 at 08:37 AM

The "concept" is basically sound, much like the SENTRI pass. And I think most folks whom have obtained one finds the cost and time involved well worth the "hassle"

In most cases where a Government is going introduce a new "law" they will float a "ballon" to see how fast it gets shot down.. if it looks like it will "fly and/or float" they will move a bit further in the introduction of a "change"

A new law passes then one must adoption of "regulations" for implementation with consideration for "regional" variation in interpretation.. a time frame of then 3-5 years at least.

I for one think it would move more folks quickly and safely across the border, helping rather than hindering "folks" no matter what Nationality.. once all the "bugs" were worked out..

And I really do agree with the Santa Ana point.. but, that kind of stuff will always go on... just like "stealing" and other actions which are part of our society. But, this would be a step in "control" over the 20 lanes of North and South bound traffic each morning/day

And for those who do not have the SENTRI, you have my sympathy ....

Lastly have you ever heard of a Government Agency who did not have a "budget short fall"... they are rewarded for over spending... that way when you submit your new budget for the next year.. you are ALWAYS requesting an increase and it's clearly justified as you ran out of money running your Department/Agency !!!!

And that is the rest of the story

:):)

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by wessongroup]

David K - 12-15-2009 at 09:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
LESS MONEY TO GOVERNMENT, MEANS MORE MONEY TO THE PEOPLE...


Too bad some in government didn't study Economics 101, instead of Karl Marx!


You must be as old as I am. The text has been updated to reflect "collective good", comrade.


Yah, it sure is sad that instead of learning from real world experiences... they learn from Ivy League universities and commie professors. Since they don't teach real history to kids, those in control can repeat those mistakes made before. Heck, even the Red Chinese have learned how capitalism is supposed to work!

noproblemo2 - 12-15-2009 at 09:04 AM

"And for those who do not have the SENTRI, you have my sympathy ...."
Thank You for the sympathy, however, those who cross in an RV are not permitted to use a SENTRI pass........

Hola

wessongroup - 12-15-2009 at 09:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by noproblemo2
"And for those who do not have the SENTRI, you have my sympathy ...."
Thank You for the sympathy, however, those who cross in an RV are not permitted to use a SENTRI pass........


Yes, but you get to meet so many interesting people that way... and we all get to see that sparkling personality of yours out in public.

Perhaps with the proposed changes, it would allow more time for RV's.. is this the same for trailers?

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by wessongroup]

noproblemo2 - 12-15-2009 at 09:24 AM

Or better yet have a disignated RV crossing lane to expedite crossings to avoid the bumper games while in line.... Waiting in line just gives us time to open all interior cabinet doors to move the inspection times faster, but even with a handicap sticker they still want you to get out, the U.S. border agents seem to have no respect for seniors with disabilities...

Commie Professors??? Give Me A Break

Bajahowodd - 12-15-2009 at 09:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
LESS MONEY TO GOVERNMENT, MEANS MORE MONEY TO THE PEOPLE...


Too bad some in government didn't study Economics 101, instead of Karl Marx!


You must be as old as I am. The text has been updated to reflect "collective good", comrade.


Yah, it sure is sad that instead of learning from real world experiences... they learn from Ivy League universities and commie professors. Since they don't teach real history to kids, those in control can repeat those mistakes made before. Heck, even the Red Chinese have learned how capitalism is supposed to work!



And if anyone out there thinks we are somehow going to capture terrorists at the border, I've got a bridge for sale. Most of this crap both ways is sabre rattling.

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by Bajahowodd]

DianaT - 12-15-2009 at 09:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K

Yah, it sure is sad that instead of learning from real world experiences... they learn from Ivy League universities and commie professors. Since they don't teach real history to kids, those in control can repeat those mistakes made before. Heck, even the Red Chinese have learned how capitalism is supposed to work!


The history that is taught today in our schools is far more inclusive and real than what was taught in the past. In the past, it was only all about white males, and jingoistic ---not unlike many countries. While it needs to go further, it has improved.

I do agree with you about those in control repeating the mistakes of the past----Reagan repeated the mistakes of Hoover, and Bush II had a lot in common with Harding. We are paying dearly for the mess they left behind----it will take a long time to dig out of the moral and economic hole they left behind.

Maybe to end all of this about tourism, just maybe the border should be closed. Yes, it would hurt Baja, but I believe the average Mexican crossing the border going north, spends a lot more shopping than does someone going camping for a few days in Baja. Do you not bring most of what you need from the US?

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by DianaT]

Lanes

wessongroup - 12-15-2009 at 09:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by noproblemo2
Or better yet have a disignated RV crossing lane to expedite crossings to avoid the bumper games while in line.... Waiting in line just gives us time to open all interior cabinet doors to move the inspection times faster, but even with a handicap sticker they still want you to get out, the U.S. border agents seem to have no respect for seniors with disabilities...


Have never crossed in an RV, thought you guys had a couple of lanes to the far left "just for RV's"

Please let us know how it works for folks that are going North in an RV.. at SY:):)

k-rico - 12-15-2009 at 09:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Mexico (Mexicans) really have a lot more to gain from U.S. tourism


I was wondering exactly how much so I did some googling

2008 revenues from tourism in Mexico was $13.2 billion. Mostly from Americans I would guess.

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=327941&Categor...

2008 Mexican GDP was $1.567 trillion or 1567 billion.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...

So.....

13.2/1567*100 = 0.84 percent

American tourism dollars amount to chump change in Mexico if I used the right numbers and did the arithmetic correctly.

Of course on a local basis, like in Baja, it's more significant, but thankfully, becoming less and less important.


[Edited on 12-15-2009 by k-rico]

noproblemo2 - 12-15-2009 at 09:54 AM

There are lanes that say for RV's, but to the far left at San Ysidro, but cars also pass in those lanes and getting to those far left lanes is next to impossible in an RV because they can't jump in and out of lanes the way the cars do, and no one wants an RV in front of them in line.

got it

wessongroup - 12-15-2009 at 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by noproblemo2
There are lanes that say for RV's, but to the far left at San Ysidro, but cars also pass in those lanes and getting to those far left lanes is next to impossible in an RV because they can't jump in and out of lanes the way the cars do, and no one wants an RV in front of them in line.


Now that sounds like a whole lot of fun.. maybe a roof mounted 50 cal. would work better than a SENTRI... you still have my sympathy as there is not much one can do at this time, it appears.. perhaps your border pass will have to be XANAX ... just remember to share...

:):)

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by wessongroup]

noproblemo2 - 12-15-2009 at 10:10 AM

"perhaps your border pass will have to be XANAX ... just remember to share..."
Now there's a GOOD idea!!!!

David K - 12-15-2009 at 10:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Mexico (Mexicans) really have a lot more to gain from U.S. tourism


I was wondering exactly how much so I did some googling

2008 revenues from tourism in Mexico was $13.2 billion. Mostly from Americans I would guess.

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=327941&Categor...

2008 Mexican GDP was $1.567 trillion or 1567 billion.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...

So.....

13.2/1567*100 = 0.84 percent

American tourism dollars amount to chump change in Mexico if I used the right numbers and did the arithmetic correctly.

Of course on a local basis, like in Baja, it's more significant.

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by k-rico]


I was comparing the two, specifiaclly as it applies to Baja California. In other words, the impact of U.S. / Canadian tourism on the Baja economy is much greater than the impact of Mexican tourism on the U.S. economy.
Good research, however!

k-rico - 12-15-2009 at 10:31 AM

Yes but I think folks put too much weight on the impact of American tourism in Mexico. If the Mexicans want to tighten up their borders, good for them. It appears to be more important to them than tourism dollars.

Living in TJ I've seen the junk stores and bars on Avenida Revolucion go out of business and sure those business folks are hurting, but I say good riddance, in the long run Tijuana will be better off without all that crap.

Hook - 12-15-2009 at 10:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
I think that $200.00 U.S. for entry fees for me and my son just might be enough to keep us from crossing of the border. It would be hard to justify the expense. It cost exactly $200.00 for a 10 year visa to India.


Why, will the both of you be spending more than 180 days down there?

If not, it appears it will still be about 23.00 per person.

not sure

wessongroup - 12-15-2009 at 10:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Mexico (Mexicans) really have a lot more to gain from U.S. tourism


I was wondering exactly how much so I did some googling

2008 revenues from tourism in Mexico was $13.2 billion. Mostly from Americans I would guess.

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=327941&Categor...

2008 Mexican GDP was $1.567 trillion or 1567 billion.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...

So.....

13.2/1567*100 = 0.84 percent

American tourism dollars amount to chump change in Mexico if I used the right numbers and did the arithmetic correctly.

Of course on a local basis, like in Baja, it's more significant.

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by k-rico]


I was comparing the two, specifiaclly as it applies to Baja California. In other words, the impact of U.S. / Canadian tourism on the Baja economy is much greater than the impact of Mexican tourism on the U.S. economy.
Good research, however!


Not sure about that, if all Mexican's were removed from the American economy, most food production would stop, and most resturants, automotive repair, and many, many other small business would be knocked out... over night

Not sure the same can be said for the American's impact on the Mexican economy.

At this time, the United States of America has a trade deficit of roughly 74 billion dollars.. that means we owe Mexico!!:):)

rts551 - 12-15-2009 at 10:48 AM

How ignorant can you be? The fact is we need both those who work with their hands and those that work with their minds. Can you imagine what this country would be like if there were no Universities and just a bunch of uneducated DK's running around !
Maybe if you had spent a little time with your formal education to compliment your informal learning ....


Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
LESS MONEY TO GOVERNMENT, MEANS MORE MONEY TO THE PEOPLE...


Too bad some in government didn't study Economics 101, instead of Karl Marx!


You must be as old as I am. The text has been updated to reflect "collective good", comrade.


Yah, it sure is sad that instead of learning from real world experiences... they learn from Ivy League universities and commie professors. Since they don't teach real history to kids, those in control can repeat those mistakes made before. Heck, even the Red Chinese have learned how capitalism is supposed to work!

k-rico - 12-15-2009 at 10:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
How ignorant can you be? The fact is we need both those who work with their hands and those that work with their minds. Can you imagine what this country would be like if there were no Universities and just a bunch of uneducated DK's running around !
Maybe if you had spent a little time with your formal education to compliment your informal learning ....


Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
LESS MONEY TO GOVERNMENT, MEANS MORE MONEY TO THE PEOPLE...


Too bad some in government didn't study Economics 101, instead of Karl Marx!


You must be as old as I am. The text has been updated to reflect "collective good", comrade.


Yah, it sure is sad that instead of learning from real world experiences... they learn from Ivy League universities and commie professors. Since they don't teach real history to kids, those in control can repeat those mistakes made before. Heck, even the Red Chinese have learned how capitalism is supposed to work!


rts551, you're beating your head against the wall. It ain't gonna work.

rts551 - 12-15-2009 at 10:59 AM

is that why it hurts, thanks. Time for reality check anyway.

k-rico - 12-15-2009 at 11:05 AM

I'm going out on a limb here and propose that the decrease in tourism in all of Baja will be, in the long run, a good thing.

The old Cabo was ruined in the opinion of many.

Rosarito was turning into a huge TJ Avenida Revolucion. Party, party, party.

Ensenada was getting too dependent on cruise ships that have just decided to go elsewhere.

Huge developments were recently proposed in BCS and thankfully did not come about. Tourists were prime targets.

Evidently tourism is low on the sustainable business scale.

Raising the difficulty and cost of getting tourist visas might just be a good thing.


[Edited on 12-15-2009 by k-rico]

Taco de Baja - 12-15-2009 at 11:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Mexico (Mexicans) really have a lot more to gain from U.S. tourism


I was wondering exactly how much so I did some googling

2008 revenues from tourism in Mexico was $13.2 billion. Mostly from Americans I would guess.

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=327941&Categor...

2008 Mexican GDP was $1.567 trillion or 1567 billion.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...

So.....

13.2/1567*100 = 0.84 percent

American tourism dollars amount to chump change in Mexico if I used the right numbers and did the arithmetic correctly.

Of course on a local basis, like in Baja, it's more significant, but thankfully, becoming less and less important.


[Edited on 12-15-2009 by k-rico]


Your math is correct, but I don't know if you can really compare it to the GDP. For example, we always hear that remittances (money sent home from workers in the US) are a close second only to oil revenue for the money they add to the economy...Yet in 2007 remittances amounted to "only" $23.7 billion - or a little over 1% of the GDP...If this paltry ~1% "chump change" stopped, what do you think would happen to the Mexican economy?

Link to 2007 remittances


Also interesting that in a subset of the link you provided https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mx.html#Econ the unemployment of Mexico in 2008 is listed as as 4%…Really? :lol:

k-rico - 12-15-2009 at 11:12 AM

Yes, I was unsure about using GDP in the denominator. That's why I put the "if" in there. What would be a better way to judge the significance of tourism? And as far as the numbers being accurate, you can only work with what ya got.

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by k-rico]

gnukid - 12-15-2009 at 11:50 AM

Its interesting to me that the gov of Mexico, USA and Canada signed the SPP security prosperity pact, the UN has declared the goal of a common North American Continent, there are continous changes in policy to align our policies and governments. Our Military is training together and co-opting funding with Plan Mexico. Many large corporations are now co-owned by cross border entities. This week the copenhagen treaty is being negotiated to require a new central power to exact a new 2% tax on our countries to be delivered to a private fund for global enforcement of new smart grid laws, the 2% tax has already been passed in Mexico and is now being passed for all countries through the copenhagen treaty. USA has declared repeatedly they will legalize all migrants and provide a universal id card, passport card or rfid card. Mexico declares they will forgive illegals and provide for simplified visas.

Yet while our government publicly states their plans, signs treaties, all outside of the democratic process, few (of you) can accept see these actions for what they clearly are, a fast moving alignment of our North American continent toward a single common government which is highly militarized and controlled by a new private bank and corporate state with heavy taxes and massive smart control grid.

Does any one think this might not be in your best interests to give up so much so quickly?

They have clearly stated their plan is to use the scheme of global climate change as a mantra to demand global alignment and a social change to control populations and control society with a massive oppressive smart grid connecting all energy use, all actions to a central monitoring and taxation scheme supporting a new financial system based on carbon credits (debt) which you will accrue as debt through your daily actions. The carbon market known as a cap and trade will be the financial system, the new gold, and you will be indentured servants constantly accruing debt and penalties. Furthermore a super complex trading scheme will support derivatives, default swaps, futures and all kinds of zany financial structures to allow large corporate entities to profit and avoid the burdens or actual reduction of pollution and where they do they earn carbon credits to auction off simply by reducing energy production.

Does anyone read at all anymore?

Or is it just more fun to blame the left-right paradigm and simple idiotic arguments instead of discussing the truth of the massive theft underway by a global banking cabal and total breakdown of our democratic structures and present society all for profits of a few?

Oh but being arrogant-ignorant is so much more fun and such an easy out than being inquisitive, thoughtful and action-minded to stop this cabal?

Bajahowodd - 12-15-2009 at 01:49 PM

There's no question that the financial institutions have developed to the arrogant level of declaring that politics is unimportant. This whole idea that Wall Street dictates what happens in the world is supported to a certain extent by the "too big to fail" label. That said, in my opinion, anyone trying to posit a direct link between such things as Copenhagen, domestic amnesty, unitary North American government, etc. ought to consider moving into a trailer next to Art Bell in Pahrump.

wessongroup - 12-15-2009 at 02:34 PM

Can see we got some real thinkers out there... been trying to get off the grid myself for all my life.. thought we had a chance down here in Mexico.. but, sounds like they are going to "plant" a chip in my butt to keep taps on me and/or others no matter where you go.... well, I be waiting for someone to post a solution... EECM's or what ever is used today.. but, please not Pahrump!!:):)

monoloco - 12-15-2009 at 02:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Its interesting to me that the gov of Mexico, USA and Canada signed the SPP security prosperity pact, the UN has declared the goal of a common North American Continent, there are continous changes in policy to align our policies and governments. Our Military is training together and co-opting funding with Plan Mexico. Many large corporations are now co-owned by cross border entities. This week the copenhagen treaty is being negotiated to require a new central power to exact a new 2% tax on our countries to be delivered to a private fund for global enforcement of new smart grid laws, the 2% tax has already been passed in Mexico and is now being passed for all countries through the copenhagen treaty. USA has declared repeatedly they will legalize all migrants and provide a universal id card, passport card or rfid card. Mexico declares they will forgive illegals and provide for simplified visas.

Yet while our government publicly states their plans, signs treaties, all outside of the democratic process, few (of you) can accept see these actions for what they clearly are, a fast moving alignment of our North American continent toward a single common government which is highly militarized and controlled by a new private bank and corporate state with heavy taxes and massive smart control grid.

Does any one think this might not be in your best interests to give up so much so quickly?

They have clearly stated their plan is to use the scheme of global climate change as a mantra to demand global alignment and a social change to control populations and control society with a massive oppressive smart grid connecting all energy use, all actions to a central monitoring and taxation scheme supporting a new financial system based on carbon credits (debt) which you will accrue as debt through your daily actions. The carbon market known as a cap and trade will be the financial system, the new gold, and you will be indentured servants constantly accruing debt and penalties. Furthermore a super complex trading scheme will support derivatives, default swaps, futures and all kinds of zany financial structures to allow large corporate entities to profit and avoid the burdens or actual reduction of pollution and where they do they earn carbon credits to auction off simply by reducing energy production.

Does anyone read at all anymore?

Or is it just more fun to blame the left-right paradigm and simple idiotic arguments instead of discussing the truth of the massive theft underway by a global banking cabal and total breakdown of our democratic structures and present society all for profits of a few?

Oh but being arrogant-ignorant is so much more fun and such an easy out than being inquisitive, thoughtful and action-minded to stop this cabal?
Bingo! Well said Gnu.

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by monoloco]

k-rico - 12-15-2009 at 02:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
Can see we got some real thinkers out there... been trying to get off the grid myself for all my life.. thought we had a chance down here in Mexico.. but, sounds like they are going to "plant" a chip in my butt to keep taps on me and/or others no matter where you go.... well, I be waiting for someone to post a solution... EECM's or what ever is used today.. but, please not Pahrump!!:):)


The SENTRI pass and the new passports are the closest things to butt chips so far. Nothing like having RFID chips in your pocket and on your windshield. I wonder when the local police will be able to read them. Use sparingly, perhaps not at all, if anonymity is desired.

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by k-rico]

gnukid - 12-15-2009 at 03:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
There's no question that the financial institutions have developed to the arrogant level of declaring that politics is unimportant. This whole idea that Wall Street dictates what happens in the world is supported to a certain extent by the "too big to fail" label. That said, in my opinion, anyone trying to posit a direct link between such things as Copenhagen, domestic amnesty, unitary North American government, etc. ought to consider moving into a trailer next to Art Bell in Pahrump.


This is quite funny, the Copenhagen UN speakers themselves have declared loudly that the SPP, NAU, Climate Change, Goldman Sachs banking cabal, Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are in fact the incremental means to the end for their social engineering plans which are based in eugenics. The very same plans for social engineering they have had for more than 100 years and have executed consistently in the policies that precipitated every so called war and actions leading up to to mass murder and exploitation world-wide. But howard you would sit happily in front of your big screen denying the policies and funding which fueled the civil war, WWI, WWII, Cambodia, Vietnam, Serbia, the Cold war, the current invasions etc ad infinitum ad naseum, what fun to be so pleasantly disconnected and unable to place blame or criticism. What a joy to be so arrogant yet uninformed.

Interesting though that even though the thieves have been caught, many are in serious trouble, many resignations in the recent weeks, many already under investigation, and many charges for theft, treason and tyranny, the examples are printed in main stream crappy media daily, yet still the North American arrogance insists that it can not be so, We are # 1, since to consider the seriousness of the message requires the North American to challenge his own arrogance.

I wonder Howard and other deniers, at what point would you see a connection between US policy and actions in the gloabl banking cabal, foreign policy in the bananistans, anthropormorphic global climate mantra, health care profitabllity for medical industry, NAFTA, SPP, NAU, EU and now the coup d'etat the Copenhagen treaty?

By design, we have 20%+ actual unemployment, many or most have lost any value in their home investment, manufacturing and industry has been destroyed and moved away, farming has been decimated by policies and promotion of biofuels and GMO.

Yet Howard is certain there could no inter-connection, its all a big accident and all of this literal nonsense is just a blip to be ignored.

The US was the greatest nation on earth with the most productive inventive people ever, and in literally a few years we are the biggest debtor nation, we have lost virtually all manufacturing, we have increased our military budget using untrained private contractors that admittedly kill people for no purpose, we torture innocents and hold people in horrific prisons without charges for more than 8 years. Yet Howard is certain that nothing is connected and to even consider these issues, or read, is the pass-time of ninnies.

Yes its all simply by accident. It's cute, we're funny, ha ha. War is Peace, Carbon that plants use and we breathe is bad, Torture is Freedom, Globalism and indentured servitude is our destiny so accept it.

fishbuck - 12-15-2009 at 03:12 PM

Gnukid... did you forget to wear your tin foil hat again?

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by fishbuck]

wessongroup - 12-15-2009 at 03:18 PM

Gnukid... your a tonic for an old man.. thanks for the sprit and all the rest.. feeling better :):)

wessongroup - 12-15-2009 at 03:26 PM

way off topic, but a while back was watching "Cops" yeah, I know ... but, they were using technology that allowed them to "photograph the license plate, send the signal to the main frame and verify the ownership of the vehicle and determine if it was stolen". Now hear is the big deal.. they were moving.. they were checking: both sides of the streets on parked cars, and they were also able to "read and check on coming traffic and cars which were behind them.. all at a speed of 35 miles per hour. When they hit a stolen vehicle.. they got a sound... it was very impressive, yet very scary at the same time. The guys were all ex-military, and using very high tech military hardware and software.. and that was at the City level, and they were tied into the State database, which is tied into.... ahhhhhhh gee let me think..

Who was that guy that posted, please don't pave that road... well, he's got it right...

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by wessongroup]

gnukid - 12-15-2009 at 03:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
Gnukid... did you forget to wear your tin foil hat again?

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by fishbuck]


So fun to act silly! Well that's Fishbuck, I try to explain this in words you can understand, I am leaving to climb the nearby mesa and hit the natural hot springs with my posse of mexicanas and fushbuk you are not invited. We are open to thoughtful discussion and your insult without respect is unwelcome, although opposing views are.

By the way, even the most distant Ranchers I meet in Baja know about the world around them, they know about all this, they can explain clearly the interconnected policies of the Vatican and how they affect the world and its populations, they understand about farming, seeds, manufacturing and the truth about climate change and war and taxes, but interestingly the so called educated American loves his arrogance and would rather hold that old crown high than admit that he is is lost and confused under attack on everything from language to thought and freedom from an enemy so devious and evil and so close at hand.

toneart - 12-15-2009 at 04:30 PM

Gnukid! Go easy on Howard. He's one of the good guys! Although he is partially in the school of denial (through no fault of his own), he is a thinking, observant person whose access to accurate information has been manipulated by the corporate media. Couple that with all the official disinformation and denial by politicians who are influenced...make that "bought" by the corporate lobbies. There is no more glaring example than that of The Independent Party of Joe.

It is difficult to discern all of the working parts of the way the system works and not label them "conspiracies". Some are probably not, but if one is observant and reads from many different sources, he will connect current trends, trace them back into history, and cobble them together.

Anyway, you are prying folks out of their comfort zone. People don't like that. It is....well...damned uncomfortable! As I have suggested through the years that sometimes your style is a bit off-putish. Perhaps it is a bit too intense and verbose for most (including me, at times) to enable us to assimilate the message.

Having said that, keep it coming. You are a vital contributor here.

I want a tin foil hat too!

toneart - 12-15-2009 at 04:37 PM

Maybe it could say "Got Baja?" on it. :tumble:;):cool:

fishbuck - 12-15-2009 at 04:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
Gnukid... did you forget to wear your tin foil hat again?

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by fishbuck]


So fun to act silly! Well that's Fishbuck, I try to explain this in words you can understand, I am leaving to climb the nearby mesa and hit the natural hot springs with my posse of mexicanas and fushbuk you are not invited. We are open to thoughtful discussion and your insult without respect is unwelcome, although opposing views are.

By the way, even the most distant Ranchers I meet in Baja know about the world around them, they know about all this, they can explain clearly the interconnected policies of the Vatican and how they affect the world and its populations, they understand about farming, seeds, manufacturing and the truth about climate change and war and taxes, but interestingly the so called educated American loves his arrogance and would rather hold that old crown high than admit that he is is lost and confused under attack on everything from language to thought and freedom from an enemy so devious and evil and so close at hand.


Oops! I thought I was being funny not insulting. But I honestly don't know where you come up with all that cr@p.
Some might be true even. But who cares. I mean how does it affect your life on a daily basis.
Lighten up a little.
Let's see, I'm at work building the most powerful airlift aircraft ever built. Today my company flew the most efficient plane ever built. The 787.
I anticipate my stock to skyrocket tomorrow.
I can go on the internet and make a date with any number of beautiful latinas.
And I'm not making dates with them to talk either.;D
Funny I don't feel under attack at all.
:cool:

[Edited on 12-16-2009 by fishbuck]

DENNIS - 12-15-2009 at 04:55 PM

All you guys should quit talking and start listening. I bet you'll have more fun.

norte - 12-15-2009 at 05:03 PM

#2 poster ever, ((in a very short period of time, mover over David) please give us a little room. We like to post as well.

Good advice!

toneart - 12-15-2009 at 05:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
All you guys should quit talking and start listening. I bet you'll have more fun.


You and I are in good company though, Dennis! :saint::lol:

BJSoccer16 - 12-15-2009 at 06:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Again, if the EU can get this right, why can't we and our North American neighbors? Just seems to me with ongoing globalization, the whole concept of making it more difficult and expensive to travel is mierda de caballo.


I imagine that thousands of Mexicans would enter and never leave; as they do now, but in lesser amounts because they have to sneak in or get a visitor's visa first.

fishbuck - 12-15-2009 at 06:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BJSoccer16
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Again, if the EU can get this right, why can't we and our North American neighbors? Just seems to me with ongoing globalization, the whole concept of making it more difficult and expensive to travel is mierda de caballo.


I imagine that thousands of Mexicans would enter and never leave; as they do now, but in lesser amounts because they have to sneak in or get a visitor's visa first.


Yes, it's fairly obvious to most people.

monoloco - 12-16-2009 at 05:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
Gnukid... did you forget to wear your tin foil hat again?

[Edited on 12-15-2009 by fishbuck]


So fun to act silly! Well that's Fishbuck, I try to explain this in words you can understand, I am leaving to climb the nearby mesa and hit the natural hot springs with my posse of mexicanas and fushbuk you are not invited. We are open to thoughtful discussion and your insult without respect is unwelcome, although opposing views are.

By the way, even the most distant Ranchers I meet in Baja know about the world around them, they know about all this, they can explain clearly the interconnected policies of the Vatican and how they affect the world and its populations, they understand about farming, seeds, manufacturing and the truth about climate change and war and taxes, but interestingly the so called educated American loves his arrogance and would rather hold that old crown high than admit that he is is lost and confused under attack on everything from language to thought and freedom from an enemy so devious and evil and so close at hand.


Oops! I thought I was being funny not insulting. But I honestly don't know where you come up with all that cr@p.
Some might be true even. But who cares. I mean how does it affect your life on a daily basis.
Lighten up a little.
Let's see, I'm at work building the most powerful airlift aircraft ever built. Today my company flew the most efficient plane ever built. The 787.
I anticipate my stock to skyrocket tomorrow.
I can go on the internet and make a date with any number of beautiful latinas.
And I'm not making dates with them to talk either.;D
Funny I don't feel under attack at all.
:cool:

[Edited on 12-16-2009 by fishbuck]
Fishbuck, The point is that this stuff does affect all our lives on a daily basis. What do you think pays for all the wars and global engineering ? It's a hidden tax called inflation, that cruelly affects those least able to afford it and it's perpetuated by a global banking cabal through a fiat money system that will eventually enslave us all. Why do you think that families are so debt ridden and have to rely on two incomes to survive? It will only get worse, much worse.

oldlady - 12-16-2009 at 06:26 AM

So many posters pound on gnukid when he brings this stuff up...Y'all are bright people....prove him wrong.

BigWooo - 12-16-2009 at 07:02 AM

I didn't have time to read through ALL the posts, so maybe this is a repeat link, but could this news story have anything to do with the new ID rumor?

Mexico Hires Consultant to Make New ID's

DENNIS - 12-16-2009 at 07:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigWooo
I didn't have time to read through ALL the posts, so maybe this is a repeat link, but could this news story have anything to do with the new ID rumor?



I think this is the ID card all [I think all] Mexicans have. It's a voting card or something like that.

k-rico - 12-16-2009 at 07:33 AM

gnukid,

I'm reading your stuff. Thanks for your posts, they certainly are unique, both in what you say and how you say it.

My biggest issue with what you suggest is that for it to be true there must be a kernal of leading conspirators that spans generations, and many co-conspirators following the party line. That seems very unlikely.

Please name the leaders of this grand conspiracy, past and present, if you can.


[Edited on 12-16-2009 by k-rico]

gnukid - 12-16-2009 at 08:32 AM

The world government and eugenics policies are not my theories nor I am interpreting these ideas. And, in no way does anyone need to answer to you K-Rico regarding who are the demonic oligarchs. More so, your lack of apparent awareness illustrated by your question and somewhat indignant request to me demonstrates your (false) naivete or perhaps a pleasant commitment to a view of the world as nirvana seen with pink sunglasses, which no one is obligated nor likely interested in changing.

This is what really divides Baja campgrounds and nomads, a sheer blind commitment to ignorance made by so many nomads to their previous programmed ideology without introspection or critical discussion and analysis. Most of these ideologies, are like religions, like the eco-religion, narrow, splintering society, pitting one neighbor against the other for the sole purpose of weakening communities, largely through programmed misunderstanding.

The oligarchs are a small group that fund and manipulate others by paying them to pursue their monopolistic goals and malthusian eugenics derived from the pseudo-science of Galton-Darwin theory of intra-species evolution. The perps are the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Morgan, Queen Beatrice, Windsors etc... their minions are Don Rumsfeld, Henry Kissinger, Zbigniew Brzezinski and their puppets are people such as Obama, Berlusconi, Calderon etc... They play the same game over successfully, pitting small nations against larger ones, using loans to create debt and power, using tools such as the IMF, UN, WHO etc...

They don't need money, they are drunk on power, they drink it up. They largely control populations and society by controlling language and words, media and information, and they push their agendas using Ed Bernays propaganda technique otherwise known as mind control. Hence, we use terms like Just War, Peace Keeper Nukes, Good War, Necessary Collateral Damage, Axis of Evil, etc... Their power is nearly entirely based on populations following hand-crafted Cults of Personality such as Obama, Mussolini, Hitler, Mao, Stalin using mind warping driven political agenda to divide and conquer, profit from and kill masses.

If you would like to you could open any encyclopedia and read and see the facts are well known and should be common knowledge to everyone, everyone it seems but Americans who while seeing it first-hand deny it on the other hand in an arrogant chest-puffing fashion exhibited so well by, well, e.g. Nomads at large.

I am hardly a critic nor proponent of any ideology personally, so I am neither an expert historian nor critic. My position is to support good people and help neighbors and famiiies when I can.

There was a time when we didn't look to experts to tell us what to think, there was a time when each of us held a personal responsibility to be skeptical of government, when citizens held all power and only assigned duties to public servants. But now what have we become?

If any of you would like to you could do a search on any of these issues, terms and ideas and choose sources other than yahoo news or reuters and see what you find out, resist the impulse to puff up your chest, take your time and turn on to supporting your community by reducing the central power, deny the UN, IMF the 2% of more tax they want to create the new smart control grid, you are the power, your family and neighbors are your valuable assets, and your immediate concerns far above funding global hegemony and this demonic deadly private banker's cabal.

Lets consider the value of immediately ending our aggressions world-wide, why fund a 24 trillion bail-out of banks that have no benefit to any of us yet leave us indentured, let us leave many of 800 military bases as we we can, reduce our military and government to a level which is well trained to serve our Nation on our soil and let's reinvest our taxes in high quality manufacturing and technology to create 30 million new jobs on US soil for our future.



[Edited on 12-16-2009 by gnukid]

shari - 12-16-2009 at 08:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid


My position is to support good people and help neighbors and famiiies when I can.

I can certainly relate to this....You tell em Gnu!

k-rico - 12-16-2009 at 08:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
And, in no way does anyone need to answer to you K-Rico regarding who are the demonic oligarchs. More so, your lack of apparent awareness illustrated by your question and somewhat indignant request to me demonstrates your (false) naivete or perhaps a pleasant commitment to a view of the world as nirvana seen with pink sunglasses, which no one is obligated nor likely interested in changing.


WOW!! Chill out dude, I asked what I thought was a logical question. Who are the people involved?

And I suggested a coherent conspiracy spanning generations is unlikely.

gnukid - 12-16-2009 at 08:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
And, in no way does anyone need to answer to you K-Rico regarding who are the demonic oligarchs. More so, your lack of apparent awareness illustrated by your question and somewhat indignant request to me demonstrates your (false) naivete or perhaps a pleasant commitment to a view of the world as nirvana seen with pink sunglasses, which no one is obligated nor likely interested in changing.


WOW!! Chill out dude, I asked what I thought was a logical question. Who are the people involved?

And I suggested a coherent conspiracy spanning generations is unlikely.


We, the Nomad community, have no reason to trust you again, knowing your pattern of question-attack-promote using the conspiracy theory angle. It's predictable, boring and defeatist. You and a few others have a specific agenda which is to confuse others and divide people based first on hand picked facts then false skepticism which you illustrate again here, attacking nothing for the sheer purpose of spoiling this discussion by souring it. Take a hike.

k-rico - 12-16-2009 at 08:49 AM

Jeez, sorry I asked a reasonable question.

I used to think you were serious about all this stuff. But now I suspect you're just joking.

gnukid - 12-16-2009 at 08:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
Jeez, sorry I asked a reasonable question.

I used to think you were serious about all this stuff. But now I suspect you're just joking.


You are transparent. Funny that when you shine light on evil, it cowers.

[Edited on 12-16-2009 by gnukid]

k-rico - 12-16-2009 at 09:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
You and a few others have a specific agenda which is to confuse others and divide people based first on hand picked facts then false skepticism........


Hey, one good conspiracy deserves another.

[Edited on 12-16-2009 by k-rico]

Santiago - 12-16-2009 at 09:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
So many posters pound on gnukid when he brings this stuff up...Y'all are bright people....prove him wrong.


As you are clearly the president of the Nomad arm of Mensa:
I ask you to prove him right.

Not so easy, is it?

oldlady - 12-16-2009 at 10:17 AM

Not a member of Mensa. My father became a member, he was in his 70's when he did that. He felt it vindicated the fact that he didn't graduate from high school. I made it through high school.

I can't prove that he is right. Many have tried and written some compelling stuff. Based on some of their documentation, you are correct, it wasn't easy. The theory and it's complexity have astounding ramifications. Honest data is extremely difficult to retrieve. Blowing him off might be the ignorant, passive acceptance of a consequence we have not contemplated.
The intellectual exercise of accepting his premise and testing it might be helpful in understanding the risk.

Does a secret handshake come with one of these hats?

ELINVESTIG8R - 12-16-2009 at 11:41 AM


gnukid - 12-16-2009 at 11:56 AM

The ideology and implementation behind world government, eco-science, climate change legislation and these aggressive invasions are documented by their respective creators, Ed Bernays in the area of political manipulation and Francis Galton in eco-science to support population control and social manipulation.

I knew about Sigmund Freud's work but I only recently became familiar with his nephew Edward Benays work which takes Freud's ideas further to shape our modern media P.R. and political propaganda.

Who is Ed Bernays
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Edward_Bernays

A short clip of Ed Bernays speaking for himself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0OrT-8gXMs

A long documentary on Bernays
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8953172273825999151

I knew about Charles Galton Darwin's work on the evolution of the species but I only recently became familiar with his cousin Francis Galton's work to shape population and society.

Who is Francis Galton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Galton

PBS: In the name of Darwin
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/darwin/nameof/

Legacy of Galton-Darwin
http://creation.com/eugenics-death-of-the-defenceless

arrowhead - 12-16-2009 at 08:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
The oligarchs are a small group that fund and manipulate others by paying them to pursue their monopolistic goals and malthusian eugenics derived from the pseudo-science of Galton-Darwin theory of intra-species evolution. The perps are the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Morgan, Queen Beatrice, Windsors etc... their minions are Don Rumsfeld, Henry Kissinger, Zbigniew Brzezinski and their puppets are people such as Obama, Berlusconi, Calderon etc... They play the same game over successfully, pitting small nations against larger ones, using loans to create debt and power, using tools such as the IMF, UN, WHO etc...


gnukid suffers from a form of paranoid schizophrenia. This mental disease produces abnormalities in the perception or expression of reality. I have quoted a small section of his post to demonstrate a typical pattern. Here you see he has connected unrelated events and people into a complex conspiracy which would require the willing involvement of thousands of people, all tightly coordinated. In his mind, this all makes perfect sense.

I wish you people would stop engaging him. He needs medical treatment, probably psychotropic drugs. Most schizophrenics present with elevated levels of dopamine in their brains, and the drugs act to lower the levels of dopamine. There is no cure for this and he will undoubted progressively get worse as he ages.

[Edited on 12-17-2009 by arrowhead]

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