BajaNomad - "Doing The Pole Line Dance" by Neal Johns

"Doing The Pole Line Dance" by Neal Johns

Ken Cooke - 7-31-2011 at 12:56 PM

wessongroup - 7-31-2011 at 12:59 PM

Pretty cool Ken... thanks for the info...

David K - 7-31-2011 at 05:13 PM

The cobblestone road was built by the U.S. in WWII

{Q-E}Pole Line Road 2004 020.jpg - 47kB

David K - 7-31-2011 at 05:15 PM

Very few poles remain along the Pole Line Road!

{Q-E}Pole Line Road 2004 027.jpg - 43kB

David K - 7-31-2011 at 05:17 PM

Serious off road type vehicles required... 'Basketball Hill' and other sections of the run are not on the cobblestone paved roadbed!

{Q-E}Pole Line Road 2004 023.jpg - 48kB

David K - 7-31-2011 at 05:19 PM

Neal and Marian Johns (pictured below), Roy 'The squarecircle', and Ken Cooke are all Pole Line Road masters!

{Q-E}Pole Line Road 2004 024.jpg - 47kB

Skipjack Joe - 8-1-2011 at 03:50 PM

"Neal Johns is a retired Federal (missiles and rockets) Electronics Engineer whose has been fascinated with the desert for almost 60 years".

I'm confused. I thought Neal was an aridologist. :lol:

David K - 8-1-2011 at 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
"Neal Johns is a retired Federal (missiles and rockets) Electronics Engineer whose has been fascinated with the desert for almost 60 years".

I'm confused. I thought Neal was an aridologist. :lol:

Being fascinated with the desert IS what makes him an aridologist! :light:

Historical reading

bajaguy - 8-1-2011 at 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
The cobblestone road was built by the U.S. in WWII

Anything in writing about the Pole Line Road and US involvement in Mexico during WWII..........

And why would they cobblestone a short section of the road????

David K - 8-2-2011 at 08:06 AM

Neal read about the road in the Lower California Guidebook, and went to check it out... Ken and others followed. I have not (yet) been on it... Other than the Lower California Guidebook, I don't know of any other published information... Something to research!

Ken Cooke - 8-2-2011 at 11:31 PM

I have looked and researched, but have found nothing published on this route other than that of Gerhard and Gulick. Neal Johns showed me this route once - in 2004.

Along the Pole Line Road

Neal Johns - 8-3-2011 at 07:09 AM

bajaguy,
They only "paved" a few hills.

David K - 8-3-2011 at 07:32 AM

Neal, I am a bit curious as to the route of the pole line on to San Felipe from the section you guys have driven on (between the summit and Arroyo Grande/ La Ventana). Ensenada to the summit, as well (but that would seem obvious, except why didn't they just continue along the 'road' to Valle de Trinidad and out through the San Matias Pass...?).

Why go over the summit and across such harsh and remote terrain instead of the more direct and shorter route???

TMW - 8-3-2011 at 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy

And why would they cobblestone a short section of the road????

Probably to keep the rains from damaging them, at least in that area.

Ken Cooke - 8-3-2011 at 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Why go over the summit and across such harsh and remote terrain instead of the more direct and shorter route???

Personally, I believe the area over the Summit, up and over Basketball Hill, and across Arroyo Grande less likely erode when compared with the San Matias Pass region.

TMW - 8-3-2011 at 03:32 PM

The run up the San Matias wash is a lot easier that the summit. Soft sand instead of rocks.

David K - 8-3-2011 at 03:36 PM

It would be really cool to find original records of the project... Can you imagine a time when U.S. troops were traveling around Baja to have an early warning on a Japanese/ German sneak attack? The El Rosario mesa airstrip and San Felipe radar station (and telephone line to it) are just two examples.

wessongroup - 8-3-2011 at 04:18 PM

It is really something to think about... a different time for sure... hard to believe

Great thread...

David K - 8-3-2011 at 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
It is really something to think about... a different time for sure... hard to believe

Great thread...

I am doing some research and I just read (and I recall from another time) that the U.S. troops could not be in uniform while in Mexico.

The Internet is awesome...

David K - 8-3-2011 at 04:44 PM

Mexico and the Defense of California

American concern for the security of Mexico was intimately related to the extent and proximity of any threat to United States territory. After the attack on Pearl Harbor, the security of Baja California became a matter of acute interest to the United States. Just as lend-lease was a manifestation of American interest in the security of Mexico, so the measures taken by General DeWitt and General Card##as, singly and jointly for the defense of the United States' southwest and Mexico's northwest were concrete expressions of Mexican cooperation in the defense of the United States.

There were three fields of activity in which the defense of California involved joint action with Mexico: first, the placing of aircraft detector stations in Baja California; second, the building of airfields and highways there; and third, the formulation of joint plans by General DeWitt and General Card##as.

The proposal to establish radar stations in Baja California grew out of a study made by the GHQ Air Force early in 1941, disclosing that vital areas in the southwest, near the Mexican boundary, could not be adequately covered either by a ground observation system or by radar detectors in American territory. "An enemy desiring to attack Southern California," a later Air Forces report stated, "may be expected to be aware of the limitations of our Aircraft Warning Service, and will make his approach over or from Mexican territory. " 74 The Air Forces therefore recommended taking steps to obtain Mexico's permission to establish at least two detector stations in Baja California. These views were brought to the attention of the War Plans Division sometime in April. Without denying the merits of the proposal, the War Plans Division informed the Army Air Forces that the moment was not propitious for discussing the subject with the Mexican staff representatives, then in Wash-

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ington. The Air Forces continued to agitate the matter during the next three months, only to receive the same reply: "The War Department considers it inadvisable to submit to the Mexican representatives a request to station detachments of U.S. Army armed and uniformed forces in Mexican territory, as it is convinced that the Mexican Government would reject such a request at this time." 75 In framing the War Plans Division reply, Colonel Ridgway, then serving as one of the American staff representatives, noted, "there is no probability of securing Mexican consent . . . at least until an Axis attack is delivered or imminent." 76

No action was taken until 3 December 1941, four days before the attack on Pearl Harbor, when the American staff representatives presented their Mexican colleagues with a proposal for an immediate reconnaissance of Sonora and Baja California for the purpose of locating sites for radar stations. Although it was agreed that the necessity of using the installations might never arise, the American representatives nevertheless proposed that the preliminary steps be taken at once and that small mixed groups of United States officers and Mexicans, in civilian clothes, should survey the area within two hundred miles of the border for access roads and radar sites.77 An appeal on 8 December brought a reply from President Avila Camacho the same day giving full permission to make the reconnaissance and install the radar stations. To the original purpose the Air Staff had, however, added that of investigating rumors of Japanese airfields and fuel caches. A separate party under Maj. A. P. Ebright conducted the Air Staff survey, entering Mexico on 16 December. An attempt by the War Department to identify the Ebright mission with the radar station reconnaissance no doubt contributed to the initial confusion and suspicion that attended it.78 Although no signs of enemy activity were uncovered, the Ebright party remained in Mexico until the end of January to investigate suitable sites for landing fields, to report on the availability of water and other supplies along the route of communications from the border south, and in general to add to the Army's store of information about the area.79 As the immediate post-Pearl Harbor frenzy subsided and as the scope and positions of the Ebright mission became clarified,

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General DeWitt's Western Defense Command headquarters gave it firmer support against the continued skepticism at the headquarters of the Southern California Sector.80 Meanwhile, other groups had crossed the border, and had tentatively chosen sites for radar detector stations at Punta Salispuedes, 20 miles northwest of Ensenada; Punta San Jacinto, 125 miles south of Ensenada; and Punta Diggs on the northeast coast of the peninsula.

With all this activity going on, the issue that had threatened the negotiations over staging fields the previous summer-whether Mexico would permit the entry and stationing of armed and uniformed American soldiers promised to become a hardy perennial. On the earlier occasion, it had been solved by accepting the Mexican position, and when the proposal for the reconnaissance of Baja California was presented to the staff representatives on 3 December the wearing of civilian clothes by the soldiers making the survey was accepted by the American representatives as inescapable. The first draft of the instructions for `the reconnaissance, drawn up on 9 December for the Chief of the Army Air Forces, stated, "United States personnel will be limited to officers and they will wear civilian clothing," but at the suggestion of G-2, and with the concurrence of Colonel Ridgway, this particular restriction was deleted.81 Because of the United States' belligerent status, it was no longer appropriate. General DeWitt was especially insistent that no soldiers cross into Mexico unless in uniform and armed, but the point was not raised with Mexican representatives in Washington. Consequently, the Ebright group was turned back at the border and not permitted to cross until the men changed into civilian clothing and left their weapons behind. Sometimes, depending on the attitude of the local Mexican commanders, American parties were permitted to enter the country in uniform, but never under arms, and not even the excellent personal relations that existed between General DeWitt and General Card##as could bring about a definite acceptance of the American view. The War Department as well as the Department of State took the position that, unsatisfactory though it might be to send American soldiers into Mexico in civilian clothes and without arms, to arrive at an impasse with Mexico and risk having permission to install the radar sets refused would be even more undesirable. Accordingly, on 20 December General DeWitt was authorized to accede to Mexican wishes in the matter. His efforts to obtain a less dangerous and more face-saving solution

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continued but met with slight success.82 After the summer of 1942 this particular issue ceased to be a matter of record. The establishment of the radar stations, a diminution of American activity in Baja California, and the withdrawal of American personnel were probably responsible.

Two of the radar stations were set up and began operations during the first week in June 1942 and the third a month later. At each, one officer and twenty-five enlisted men were stationed to operate the set and train Mexican military personnel in its use. The equipment itself was turned over to the Mexican Army under lend-lease. By the end of August the Mexican troops had taken over the operation of the sets, and the Americans had withdrawn except for a small detachment of five men and one officer at each station.83 The coverage provided by the three sets was far from complete, but even as early as October 1942 the War Department was breathing more easily and saw no need to install additional equipment. 84 By the summer of 1943 retrenchment had become the order of the day in Baja California. All Americans were withdrawn from the radar stations except for one officer and three enlisted men, who were left in Ensenada primarily for liaison purposes. All requests for additional equipment had to be refused. By mid-May 1944 the Commanding General, Fourth Air Force, reported that he no longer considered the three radar stations necessary for the defense of California and, much to the dismay of both Navies, who wished to have the sets in operation for air-sea rescue work, operations ceased about the first of June. When, at a meeting of the defense commission, Admiral Johnson protested against a Mexican Army proposal to move the equipment to Mexico City, General Henry was obliged to state that the War Department's policy of retrenchment remained unchanged but that there would be no objection to the Navy's supplying and maintaining the operation of the sets. For the remainder of the war, the Army had no further responsibility in the matter. One station resumed operation with gasoline and oil supplied by the Navy. The

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other two were moved away.85 During the two years they had been in operation, the stations performed a useful function. They had closed all but a small gap in the network around the San Diego-Los Angeles area. Anticipated language difficulties failed to materialize to any great extent, and valuable training in the use of highly technical equipment was given our Mexican ally.

As part of the general scheme of filling in the gaps in the defenses of California after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Fourth Air Force had strongly urged the building of three landing fields for pursuit planes in Baja California and two staging fields, one near Rosario and the other near La Paz. Time, and authority to use the fields for operations, were the important considerations. Both the War Department and the joint defense commission, when formally constituted, were agreed upon the desirability of the proposal, which the commission adopted as its Fourth Recommendation on 10 April 1942.86 After some backing and filling a joint survey got well under way and recommended three sites as primary airdromes-El Cipres, six miles south of Ensenada; Camalu, just south of San Jacinto; and Trinidad, about eighteen miles south of La Ventura. 87 Later, four other fields were surveyed. For three weeks at the end of June and in early July the War Department, on the advice of the joint defense commission, called a halt to all activity in connection with the airfields in order to give Mexican opinion time to crystallize and to give General Card##as an opportunity to make a decision. After authority was given to proceed with the plans and estimates for the original five airfields, General Card##as and especially General Juan Felipe Rico, the local Mexican commander, took hold of the project with enthusiasm and pushed not only the airfields but also a connecting highway down the peninsula. General DeWitt promised any help in materials and equipment that General Rico might need. The United States, General DeWitt thought, was committed to assist both projects, the roads as well as the airfields.88

By the beginning of 1943, the War Department had begun to cool, although the Fourth Air Force still urged that the three northern fields, at El

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Cipres, Camalu, and Trinidad, be constructed and tied to San Diego by connecting roads. In March the War Department rejected General Rico's request for materials and equipment for the construction of the airfields. The Mexican section of the joint commission thus found itself in the position, in August, of arguing in favor of the United States Army undertaking a defense construction project on Mexican soil, while the American section was opposed. With the War Department unwilling to provide the construction materials because of the urgent needs of more active theaters of operations, the discussion became academic.89

In the field of joint planning, the Mexican experience took a contrary course to that of Canadian-United States planning. In the case of the latter a basic plan was drawn up by the Permanent Joint Board, and local joint plans, more detailed and specific, were subsequently completed in accordance with its general principles. With Mexico, on the other hand, the only joint plan completed during the war was the DeWitt-Card##as plan of February-March 1942 for the defense of the Pacific coastal region. When later the joint defense commission undertook to draw up a plan, two of the members-Admiral Johnson and General Castillo Najera-understood that the commission was supposed to base its plan on the DeWitt-Card##as agreements. A casual observer would perhaps have seen little in the local situation to indicate much success for the Western Defense Command planners. The local Mexican commanders either were uncertain of their authority to commit the federal government or were reluctant to accept instructions from Mexico City; the difficulties and delays in obtaining full permission for a reconnaissance in Baja California were inauspicious. But such an observer would have been wrong. Actually, the Mexican commanders made clear their willingness and desire to cooperate, and if they were reluctant to place their names to a document committing them to joint action, they made it plain by word of mouth that in an emergency they would call on General DeWitt to send American troops into Mexico.

In its final shape the plan represented a compromise between an earlier draft drawn up by General DeWitt's headquarters and one presented by General Card##as.90 It provided for the patrol and defense of the two coastal areas-Mexican and American-by the forces of the respective countries, for an exchange of information between the two forces, and for the passage of troops of either country through the territory of the other; and it permitted

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the forces of either country to operate in the other, in uniform and under arms. There were several provisions that failed to meet with the approval of General Card##as. The Mexican commander could not agree to the control and operation of airfields and radar stations in Mexico by American personnel, and insisted that the forces of one country operating in the territory of the other be under the commander in whose area they were operating.91 Both generals agreed that the plan was sound from a "military standpoint" and that "the question from a nationalistic standpoint is one for the decision of the two governments." 92 The points on which the two commanders could not agree were accordingly turned over to the joint defense commission.

The American section thought it best to defer consideration of a general, basic plan until such specific matters as the radar stations and airfields were agreed upon, and when the draft of a basic plan was presented by Col. Lemuel Mathewson at the meeting of 21 April 1942, it was patterned after the Canada-United States Basic Defense Plan of 1940.93 Little progress had been made when Admiral Johnson, becoming chairman of the American section, suggested a fresh start and a new approach. This was in December 1942. The new scheme-to draw up a plan of collaboration, in ratification of the agreements reached by the commission, instead of a defense plan-was no more easily agreed upon than the old. General Henry, recently appointed senior Army member, took over the job of drafting a new plan in collaboration with General Alamillo of the Mexican section. Discussion during the meetings the following summer and fall reveal what seem to be a measure of impatience and perhaps satiation. The question of command proved to be the stumbling block, and by April 1944 General Henry was ready to abandon the attempt to write an acceptable plan. Finally, after more than two years of effort, the commission decided upon a "statement of general principles . . . which might serve as a basis for other plans of collaboration between any two nations." 94

In a broader sense, the wartime collaboration between the United States and Mexico cannot be measured adequately by the activity in Baja California, by the joint planning of General DeWitt and General Card##as, by the deliberations of the defense commission, or by the airfields provided from Tampico to Tapachula. All of these might well have created dissension. But

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from the early wartime experience came a closer bond between the two countries. The commendable combat record of the Mexican 201st Fighter Squadron on Luzon, the Mexican airmen who gave their lives in the same cause for which American fliers died, these were the true measure of the cooperation that began in 1941. There were indications that ties so strongly forged would not be lightly dropped. Although the joint defense commission had not been formally designated as a permanent body, plans were made at a staff conference in March 1945, at which the American members of the commission represented the United States, to continue the defense commission in the postwar years. The mutual confidence and respect between the two countries that developed out of their wartime association are proof that the New World can still serve as a beacon for the Old.

Neal Johns - 8-3-2011 at 04:53 PM

The Pole Line Road did not go up/down summit, it went up/down Canyon Jamau. "In a few miles we passed the bottom of the "precipitous" Canyon Jamau and as last we were on the Pole Line Road"

Coming down out of Canyon Jaquegel, it followed the present race course road, either to Hwy. 5 or Hwy. 3.

The washout southeast mentioned toward San Felipe has been bypassed a few hundred yards downstream (by Ken?) and is passable now. A friend and I touched it up a couple of years ago.

I don't know why it did not go through Valle de Trinidad (Hwy. 3 route from the west coast), maybe no road across the peninsula then?

From Gene Kira's MexFish.com

David K - 8-3-2011 at 04:53 PM

MILK RUN” (LITERALLY)

“The first trip I made to San Felipe in Mexico was to deliver dairy products to the Army radar station in the spring of 1942.

“Sometime, in about April I think, my dad pulled me out of the second grade, and we got into a 1938 Dodge truck and headed for San Felipe.

“The truck was filled with milk, butter, eggs, cheese and ice cream and we were headed for the army ‘base’ at San Felipe.

“Because of the war, there was a 35 m.p.h. speed limit, and we spent the night at Calexico, at the Anza Hotel, I think.

“We got up early the next morning. I don't remember having to stop going in either direction at the border. We crossed at Calexico and it was marked as the border, but I don't think there was any official border activity.

“We were not far out of town, across the border, when we were stopped at the first of maybe four check points before we reached San Felipe. These stops were manned by American soldiers, not Mexicans.

“My dad explained that we were going to a military installation in San Felipe that had just been built, and what it did was listen for airplanes using something called ‘radar.’ In the last six months, the Army had built a paved road to San Felipe called the ‘radar road’ which made the drive south a lot easier than it had been, unlike the month-long ordeal of mud and flood up until 1942.

“What we drive on today is the ‘radar road,’ although it has been paved a couple of times since then.

“I may be the only person to remember driving on that stretch of road during World War II who is still alive today. I can remember, the water was right up to the road's edge in places, and my dad said that if it were not for the road, we'd have to wait for the tides to change and for the mud to dry out.

“The ‘base’ was near where the old icehouse was until recently, and we were stopped from driving into the main area. About 20 young soldiers came out to the barbed-wire fence and had the truck unloaded in a very short time, and we turned right around and headed home.”

http://www.northamericanforts.com/Latin/mexico.html#radar

David K - 8-3-2011 at 05:04 PM

American WWII Air Defense Radar Stations
(1942 - 1943), State of Baja California (Norte)
During the early years of WWII the U.S. Army built and manned at least three SCR-270 early warning anti-aircraft radar stations along the coast of Baja California Norte, operated by the 654th AWS Company, to protect the southern approaches to San Diego, California. Known sites include Station B-92 at Punta Salispuedes, located 22 miles northwest of Ensenada (later moved to Alasitos, 36 miles south of Tijuana); Station B-94 at Punta San Jacinto, 60 miles south of Ensenada; and Station B-97 at Punta Estrella (Diggs), south of San Felipe on the Gulf of California (aka Sea of Cortez).

==============================================
(DK personal note):
When I was younger, I also had heard that the radar station was out at Punta Estrella/ Punta Diggs. The MexFish post says it was near the ice house in San Felipe...?

[Edited on 8-4-2011 by David K]

The type of radar installed in Baja... an SCR-268:

SCR-270:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCR-270_radar#/media/File:SCR-2...

Edit... the 270 vs the 268 radar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCR-270_radar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCR-268_radar

[Edited on 4-3-2015 by David K]

David K - 8-3-2011 at 05:14 PM

Arrangements were made between the U.S. Government and the Government of Mexico to allow joint teams of U.S. Army officers and Mexicans Army officers and soldiers to patrol the Mexican peninsula of Baja California. The teams were platoon-size units and patrolled all the way to the southern tip of the peninsula. There were persistent rumors early in the war that the Japanese might have secret air bases in Baja California, but no evidence of this was ever found. The American officers were required to wear civilian clothing and all U.S. markings had to be removed from U.S. Army vehicles and other equipment to accommodate Mexico's neutrality laws.

@David K

Ken Cooke - 8-3-2011 at 10:56 PM

Exactly where did you locate all of this great information? :?:

David K - 8-4-2011 at 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Exactly where did you locate all of this great information? :?:

The INTERNET (it's on computers now)! :light:

(seriously, at the bottom of Nomad pages is the Google Search... that is where... then I went through many pages using various search words)

David K - 8-4-2011 at 08:47 AM

More...

MEXICO 197
AWS Detachment 1 B-92 654th SAW Company
Signal Aircraft Warning (US) Punta Salispuedes, 22 miles northwest of Ensenada (moved to Alasitos, 36 miles south of Tijuana) Mexico
AWS Detachment 2 B-94 654th SAW Company
Punta San Jacinto, 60 miles South of Ensenada
AWS Detachment 3 B-97 654th SAW Company
Punta Estrella, near San Felipe on the Gulf
(Also called Punta Diggs198 199 )

Neal Johns - 8-4-2011 at 10:07 AM

Great work, DK. I had tried to Google for Pole Line info a few years ago and failed.
You now have a new title: GoogleMeister? GooglerDoodler? Let the name contest begin! :-) :-) :-)

By the way, two of my friends from work and I found the Pole Line Road in the late 1970's by noticing the road/valley going south from Guadalupe Hot Springs and wondering where it went. Due to breakdowns/running out of gas/poor maps (only an WWII Aeronautical map)/no knowledge of race routes and our hilarious attempts at dead reckoning navigation, it took five trips! Books and good maps came later and I sucked them up.

Ah, to be young and innocent again. :-) :-) :-)

Thanks for starting this post, Ken

TMW - 8-4-2011 at 12:32 PM

Neal back then did you go both ways? I mean up the mtn toward Ensenada as well as to the east. If so what was the road like then, better, worse or about the same depending on the rains etc.

Skipjack Joe - 8-4-2011 at 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neal Johns

You now have a new title: GoogleMeister? GooglerDoodler? Let the name contest begin! :-) :-) :-)

Yankee Google?

<groan>

BajaGringo - 8-4-2011 at 01:47 PM

An old guy I met in Vicente Guerrero a few years back who told me he remembered a U.S. military base of some kind at Punta Jacinto when he was a kid. I listened and just rolled my eyes, sure at the time the old guy was in the early stages of dementia.

Turns out he knew what he was talking about...

Skipjack Joe - 8-4-2011 at 03:47 PM

"When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But, when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years."

MTwain.jpg - 13kB

Neal Johns - 8-4-2011 at 06:05 PM

TW,
I have only gone south, ever.

The main changes are due to weather, of course, and are usually:
1. The last hill down leaving the Canyon Jaquegel area (camper pic in an above DK post - Marian driving).

2. The long uphill, left side downslope, a mile or so before 1. gets narrower every year.

3. The arroyo crossing after passing the road up Canyon Jamau - unless it is before.

4. The hill I named Basketball Hill because it was full of basketball sized boulders the first time (which we moved). No locker in my FJ-40, so it was full bore all the way. A little rain and they fall back into the arroyo/road.

TMW - 8-4-2011 at 07:27 PM

The last time I was on the PLR (Dec, 07) a huge rock rolled into the Rd path just after the turn from the wash to go up basketball hill. I'd have to look to see if I have a picture but Ken had his jeep's winch tied to it and was trying to push it. It was funny as the rock was pulling Ken to it. We finally went up and around it.

BAJACAT - 8-5-2011 at 02:00 PM

can you see the PLR on google earth..? can find it..

wessongroup - 8-5-2011 at 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
"When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But, when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years."

A classic...

TW on the Pole Line Road

Ken Cooke - 8-5-2011 at 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
The last time I was on the PLR (Dec, 07) a huge rock rolled into the Rd path just after the turn from the wash to go up basketball hill. I'd have to look to see if I have a picture but Ken had his jeep's winch tied to it and was trying to push it. It was funny as the rock was pulling Ken to it. We finally went up and around it.

David K - 8-5-2011 at 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BAJACAT
can you see the PLR on google earth..? can find it..

Yes!

Shall I show it here?

Here is the 2009 post with all of Neal Johns' waypoints: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=37224

[Edited on 8-5-2011 by David K]

BAJACAT - 8-5-2011 at 04:17 PM

Thanks DK..if this trip happens, I will consider, riding with somebody..I will help with expences.Ken says it's not a good Idea to take my Big RAM, on this trip..

TMW - 8-5-2011 at 06:57 PM

There are places where a long wheel base could be a problem. When the weather gets cool Ken should do another PLR run and Jose I would be happy to have you ride in the luxury of a Toyota Tacoma. Mind you I don't crawl over big boulders like Ken and his Jeep friends, I either crash thru them or go around.

Map and Satellite Images

David K - 8-5-2011 at 10:19 PM

Here first is The Lower California Guidebook map (by Howard Gulick) close-up of the Poleline Road from the summit to Arroyo Grande...

Next is the area of the road around the cobblestone grade in the photos (from Neal Johns GPS waypoint):

The grade is between the two middle flags.

Some other points using GPS from Neal. TW and Ken...

Ken Cooke - 8-5-2011 at 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BAJACAT
Thanks DK..if this trip happens, I will consider, riding with somebody..I will help with expences.Ken says it's not a good Idea to take my Big RAM, on this trip..

The problem comes from the leverage your trucks weight places on your steering system when driving through all of the rocks. It will cause your steering system to loosen up, and you will continually have to tighten and retighten it. For a 3 day trip, I don't think it would be worth it.

David K - 8-6-2011 at 10:27 AM

Here is Choral Pepper's 1981 Desert Magazine story on the Diaz Grave, on Page 52 of the August issue: http://www.dezertmagazine.com/mine/1981DM08/index.html

SEE ANY of ALL the Desert Magazines: http://www.dezertmagazine.com/old-desert-magazine

Neal Johns - 8-7-2011 at 10:52 AM

Ken,
It looks very tilt-e if you went around the rock on the left side. Yes? No? Can we move it? My camper does not like Tilt.
Wimp Wimp Wimp

Barry A. - 8-7-2011 at 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neal Johns
Ken,
It looks very tilt-e if you went around the rock on the left side. Yes? No? Can we move it? My camper does not like Tilt.
Wimp Wimp Wimp

Dynamite??????? Boom------pesky rude-rock is gone!!! and no "new" road-building necessary. (-:

(just a suggestion)

Barry

David K - 8-7-2011 at 01:40 PM

Barry, bring down your X-Terra and help us look for the Melchior Diaz Grave after you blow up the Poleline Road! :lol:

TMW - 8-7-2011 at 02:26 PM

Actually Neal Ken and the other Jeep guys wanted to get up above and roll, push and knock more rocks down and then drive over them. In the end and for time sack we all decide to drive around.

"Camber"

Ken Cooke - 8-7-2011 at 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neal Johns
Ken,
It looks very tilt-e if you went around the rock on the left side. Yes? No? Can we move it? My camper does not like Tilt.
Wimp Wimp Wimp

With enough men, we could shovel our way past this obstacle in about 1-2 hours.

Barry A. - 8-7-2011 at 09:53 PM

Ken---------With a 10K wintch using triple snatch-blocks and a pull-pal (or another big rock) for an anchor perhaps it could be wintched out of the way if there is someplace to pull it to, you think? For big rocks like that one we use to wrap a heavy duty truck snow-chain around it, and attach the wintch cable to that.

Barry

Ken Cooke - 8-7-2011 at 10:39 PM

The rock would not budge, but I assume that we could pull it downhill. But, by widening the trail and creating more of a level plane, we could also drive upon it. This would require moving rocks and shoveling dirt, but I believe it could also be done. The problem is however, not many guys can work that hard in the field. I carry a snatch block, and so do my friends. So, perhaps we could give the rock a good winching, as well.

Neal Johns - 8-7-2011 at 11:50 PM

If you went around the rock going on the right side of the picture, I had better stay home this trip, too much work just for one guy's benefit.

David K - 8-17-2011 at 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Cooke

Quote:

Originally posted by Neal Johns
Ken,
It looks very tilt-e if you went around the rock on the left side. Yes? No? Can we move it? My camper does not like Tilt.
Wimp Wimp Wimp

With enough men, we could shovel our way past this obstacle in about 1-2 hours.

This doesn't look like a road that the boulder went into, it looks like you are in a ravine/ arroyo. Could it be the Pole Line Road climbed out before this point and the road is now wethered in and invisible?

Ken Cooke - 8-17-2011 at 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neal Johns
If you went around the rock going on the right side of the picture, I had better stay home this trip, too much work just for one guy's benefit.

We are planning ahead by 1 year, Neal. No need to cancel, yet. Many things can happen in 1 year.

@David - That is indeed a road - not an arroyo. The arroyo below leads to buried treasure! :!:

No, I won't say on-line - you will have to attend with me to be able to examine the treasure I discovered in that region. :bounce:

Neal Johns - 8-17-2011 at 08:02 PM

Yeah, DK, that's a good section of the road, which is a small side arroyo of the big arroyo/canyon. You gonna go and see the treasure or Wimp, Wimp, Wimp? :lol:

Got A-Trak?

Ken Cooke - 8-17-2011 at 08:13 PM

Traveling up Basketball Hill won't be the problem. Visiting the hidden treasure will be! :?:

TMW - 8-18-2011 at 10:29 AM

The winter rains carry the gold and sand down the arroyo and settle at the bottom of the water falls. Some of the locals dig it out and sell it. Only a few know the exact location below the falls. Jose lives near the road to the summit is one.

Ken Cooke - 10-14-2011 at 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by BAJACAT
can you see the PLR on google earth..? can find it..

Yes!

Shall I show it here?

Here is the 2009 post with all of Neal Johns' waypoints: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=37224

[Edited on 8-5-2011 by David K]

Thanks again for highlighting the GPS waypoints. :light:

In the design studio

Ken Cooke - 10-30-2011 at 09:17 PM

I'm grabbing images at the moment, about to make a limited run of 70 year Pole Line Rd. t-shirts and stickers. YEA! :bounce:

edm1 - 10-31-2011 at 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neal Johns
If you went around the rock going on the right side of the picture, I had better stay home this trip, too much work just for one guy's benefit.

Yeah Neal, dont cancel yet. If my 4x4 van/motorhome (wb=146 inches) doesnt sell by then, ill bring it to the run, and if it does sell ill consider bringing my new 4x4 class a motorhome (wb=159 inches); this one can pull your camper out as well :-)

David K - 10-31-2011 at 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by edm1

Quote:

Originally posted by Neal Johns
If you went around the rock going on the right side of the picture, I had better stay home this trip, too much work just for one guy's benefit.

TMW - 10-31-2011 at 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by edm1

Quote:

Originally posted by Neal Johns
If you went around the rock going on the right side of the picture, I had better stay home this trip, too much work just for one guy's benefit.

If you are bringing a motorhome down for the Pole Line Rd I'll reconsider and join the group in my GMC Z71 and follow you. If that motorhome can get thru I can. I Still want to explore the waterfall area past the Basketball hill turn off.

wessongroup - 10-31-2011 at 11:53 AM

Looking forward to the pictures.. of the "event"... should prove a lot of fun..

Ken Cooke - 10-31-2011 at 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
If you are bringing a motorhome down for the Pole Line Rd I'll reconsider and join the group in my GMC Z71 and follow you. If that motorhome can get thru I can. I Still want to explore the waterfall area past the Basketball hill turn off.

This Z71 made the run on the Pole Line Road back in '06.

Ken Cooke - 10-31-2011 at 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neal Johns
Yeah, DK, that's a good section of the road, which is a small side arroyo of the big arroyo/canyon. You gonna go and see the treasure or Wimp, Wimp, Wimp? :lol:

Good Toyotas get used and sometimes abused! :yes:

[

[Edited on 11-1-2011 by Ken Cooke]

David K - 10-31-2011 at 05:10 PM

That is just stupid, I think... but his roll cage on the OUTSIDE of the 4Runner kind of says what he wants to use it for. LOL

Ken Cooke - 11-1-2011 at 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
That is just stupid, I think... but his roll cage on the OUTSIDE of the 4Runner kind of says what he wants to use it for. LOL

The vehicle was right-sided, and driven hard the rest of the day. Stupid? It was certainly a fun time, and Tom was all smiles.

BAJACAT - 11-2-2011 at 09:03 AM

Ken is this the truck that had some problems related to the IFS,

Ken Cooke - 11-2-2011 at 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BAJACAT
Ken is this the truck that had some problems related to the IFS,

Victor's Z71 had problems with the steering components coming loose. I was surprised how temperamental the steering system is on the Chevy full-size pickups.

David K - 11-2-2011 at 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Cooke

Quote:

Originally posted by BAJACAT
Ken is this the truck that had some problems related to the IFS,

Victor's Z71 had problems with the steering components coming loose. I was surprised how temperamental the steering system is on the Chevy full-size pickups.

Why are you surprised..? Getting a well built, trouble free Chevy is as rare as ... oh well, what's the use... :lol:

TMW - 11-3-2011 at 12:05 PM

Ive got 125,000 on my GMC and the only steering related problems I've had was when I left the antisway bar off and pre-ran the 1000 last year. 4 ball joins, left side inner CV joint and right side wheel bearing assembly were shot plus the front shocks. I only have a 2 inch leveling kit on it using new torsion keys. The chevy/GMC IFS trucks with 5-6 inches or so of lift with ball joints are really for show not off road. The upper Ball joints especially can't take the strain. If you lift a Tacoma more than 2.5 to 3 inches it's recommended the upper control arm be replaced with uniballs. Most off road race trucks are special built to get the travel they do. Dixon Brothers in Las Vegas has a kit they can install on my truck for under $4,000 that replaces the torsion bar with a coil spring and has 15 inches of travel. Had I known of it when I did the leveling kit I would have done it instead.

David K - 11-3-2011 at 12:13 PM

Is it true what some GMC owners say, that a GMC is a better truck than a Chevy? I always thought they were the exact same but with a different grille. I used to have arguements with someone who had a GMC Jimmy, claimed it came from a different factory than a Chevy Blazer.

TMW - 11-3-2011 at 12:40 PM

They are the same. They may be on a different assemby line and maybe a different building but they are the same vehicle. Same engines, same tranny, same differentials, same interiors, same bodies just different grills and logos. Pick up a Chilton or Haynes repair manual and they don't differ on the service etc. By the way my 91 chevy and my 04 GMC were built in Canada. My 04 Tacoma was built in CA, USA.

The "comforts" of IFS Suspension

Ken Cooke - 11-3-2011 at 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
Ive got 125,000 on my GMC and the only steering related problems I've had was when I left the antisway bar off and pre-ran the 1000 last year. 4 ball joins, left side inner CV joint and right side wheel bearing assembly were shot plus the front shocks. I only have a 2 inch leveling kit on it using new torsion keys. The chevy/GMC IFS trucks with 5-6 inches or so of lift with ball joints are really for show not off road. The upper Ball joints especially can't take the strain. If you lift a Tacoma more than 2.5 to 3 inches it's recommended the upper control arm be replaced with uniballs.

This is terrible! I am changing out my shocks next week due to them being worn after 100,000 miles/8 years of use and abuse. I can't believe how expensive it would have been if I had purchased a full-size pickup and tried to "Off-Road" with it. Prohibitively expensive, IMO. :yes:

My "Ken Cooke" Map

Ken Cooke - 11-3-2011 at 09:00 PM

I believe David K helped me on this, though...

David K - 11-4-2011 at 10:13 AM

The far right arroyo crossing is A. Grande... I believe.

Ken Cooke - 11-4-2011 at 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
The far right arroyo crossing is A. Grande... I believe.

Yes, you are correct. The region requires lots of ground clearance and good tires. Go visit, and you'll see why...

bajalou - 11-4-2011 at 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Cooke
I believe David K helped me on this, though...

Background looks like one of my satellite maps from way back when. I know I made some (but not that one) for you Ken.