BajaNomad - Will The Border Ever Be Secure Enough For Immigration Hawks?

Will The Border Ever Be Secure Enough For Immigration Hawks?

Ateo - 2-22-2013 at 10:00 AM

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/02/will-the...

Border security could be the issue that kills immigration reform. And yet, by most measures, the U.S.-Mexico border has never been safer.

The bipartisan group of U.S. senators seeking comprehensive immigration reform have proposed a "trigger" mechanism, whereby a path to citizenship would be contingent on increased border security. President Obama and liberals have not endorsed the idea, although the president is "committed to increasing our border security further," according to White House Press Secretary Jay Carney.

Disagreement over the trigger is the largest current discrepancy between the Senate and White House versions of immigration reform. It could cause the whole thing to fall apart. Yet the idea -- expressed by both sides -- that the border needs more security may be the biggest myth of the immigration debate, according to Rep. Beto O'Rourke.

A newly elected Democrat, O'Rourke represents El Paso, Texas, the border city that shares a street grid -- and 11 border inspection stations -- with the Mexican city of Juarez. El Paso also has the lowest crime rate of any large U.S. city. (The second-safest large city? It's on the border, too: San Diego.)

The common assumption, O'Rourke told me recently, "is that the border is not secure." In fact, by almost any measure -- crime, unauthorized border crossings, resources devoted to border patrol -- the U.S.-Mexico border has never been more secure than it is now.

The problem for the immigration debate is that those who claim we need more border security are rarely called upon to prove it. No one has proposed a set of concrete standards; rather, some are calling for a subjective evaluation to be made by border-state governors, some of whom have political incentives to exaggerate the threat -- and track records of doing so.

Meanwhile, there's a downside to the increasingly militarized border, O'Rourke claims. In human terms, it results in more deaths. In fiscal terms, it wastes federal-government dollars that could be put to better use. And in economic terms, long wait times at the border -- due in part to the zealous but not very effective pursuit of contraband -- stifle the flow of trade that is a major driver of the U.S. economy.

Does the Mexican border need more security? Here are a few facts to consider.

* American border regions are not crime-ridden. El Paso and San Diego were America's two safest cities with populations over 500,000 in 2012, according to CQ Press. In 2010, at the height of Mexico's drug war, Juarez recorded more than 3,000 murders; El Paso had just five. On average, violent crime rates in U.S. border regions are lower than those of the rest of the nation.

* Terrorists are not coming over the border. There's never been a reported case of a terrorist attack in the U.S. that involved someone coming across the Mexican border. A congressional subcommittee report on the threat of cross-border terrorism cited unsubstantiated claims and three specific cases, including a Tunisian cleric caught hiding in the trunk of a car in San Diego who was not accused of involvement in any terrorist activity. The other two also were not linked to specific terrorist plots.

* There are not "bombs exploding in El Paso" or "decapitated bodies in the desert." The former claim was made by Texas Gov. Rick Perry in 2010, the latter by Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer the same year. But Perry appeared to be talking about something that happened in Mexico, not the U.S., and Brewer's claim couldn't be substantiated -- she later said she misspoke. The Senate plan proposes giving border-state governors, among other officials, the final say over whether the border is secure enough to trigger a path to citizenship -- a subjective measure that highlights the lack of a quantitative standard for security.

* The border patrol is bigger than ever. The number of agents has quintupled in the past two decades, from 4,028 in 1993 to 21,394 in 2012. In 2010, the federal government spent more than $17 billion on customs and enforcement at the border. The billions of dollars already devoted to border security pale in comparison to what it would cost to build a fence, as many politicians advocate: In Texas alone, a border fence would cost an estimated $30 billion.

* Illegal border crossings are at a 40-year low. The number of migrants caught by the Border Patrol is down 61 percent since 2005 and is at its lowest level since 1972. The average agent catches just 20 migrants per year. More Mexicans are now thought to be leaving the U.S. than entering each year, largely due to the stalled American economy. (Nonetheless, the number of illegal crossers caught each year is greater than 300,000.) Meanwhile, more migrants are dying in the desert, as stepped-up security forces would-be crossers into more and more inhospitable areas.

Borderfactcheck.org
* Lots of drugs do still come across. Narcotics seizures on the border are at all-time high levels, according to the Justice Department. "While this indicates more effectiveness at stopping drugs, it also shows that traffickers are not being deterred" by present levels of security," notes the Washington Office on Latin America, an American non-profit.

* "Security" has consequences. At least 15 civilians, most of them Mexican, have been killed by Border Patrol agents since 2010, including three Mexican teenagers fatally shot in separate incidents after allegedly throwing rocks at agents, and a father who was picnicking with his family when he was shot and killed.

* It can take three or four hours to cross the border -- legally -- from Mexico. And that costs the U.S. economy money: Many Juarez residents make day trips to shop in El Paso, where the U.S.'s lower tariffs on Chinese goods and agricultural subsidies make numerous products cheaper to buy here than in Mexico. According to O'Rourke, there is a supermarket in south El Paso that sells more eggs per square foot than any other store in the U.S.

* Stepped-up security is hampering trade. And it's not just El Paso that's harmed by that. According to a report by the Wilson Center, six million U.S. jobs depend on trade with Mexico, which amounts to half a trillion dollars of goods and services per year. O'Rourke hopes to persuade more members of Congress to support immigration reform by pointing to the economic effects of cross-border trade on their home districts far from the border.

gnukid - 2-22-2013 at 10:14 AM

Considering the border is wide open to pedestrian crossing this article is pure fiction. The border has massive pedestrian traffice along the fence, under over and through holes. I have observed the pedestrian gates in TJ and they do not check most peoples papers they just hold up a plastic bag with a piece of paper and walk through and of course they do not ask anyone with light skin for proof, in fact you more likley to get a "step to the right and move along." Most cities in California at least are sanctuary cities menaing they can not hassle or arrest someone for not having id while driving or any misdemenor. And new laws say that a person may say I went to highschool here and that's it they are free to go-no checks nothing.

I am friends with Mexicans in the USA and they have bank accounts, cars and even houses but no valid id. crazy. Except now Washington State apparently gives drivers license without formal id so they go all the way there for a dl with fake name to start off "legally". Then they pay no income tax and/or file other peoples returns and get the refunds and the USA never follows up on any of this. Imagine what would happen if you pulled this in any other country, you would be in big trouble, but not the USA. And if someone in the family is legal they claim every other person as a dependent including those in Mexico and receive those deductions and benefit$.

USA #1 in tiered workforces with loopholes to avoid taxes for cheats

Bajaboy - 2-22-2013 at 01:24 PM

It's a nice little escape clause....

"No immigration reform until the border is secure...blah, blah, blah....." says the blowhole.

My question to the blowhole would be to define secure and then we can assess any progress.

Barry A. - 2-22-2013 at 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
It's a nice little escape clause....

"No immigration reform until the border is secure...blah, blah, blah....." says the blowhole.

My question to the blowhole would be to define secure and then we can assess any progress.

Surely we can define & measure "secure" fully knowing that it will never be fool proof. The Stats are down now for lots of reasons, not the least being the state of the USA economy. Having lived within 25 miles of the border with Mexico for 43 years of my life (SoCal), I can assure you that it is NOT secure by any stretch of the imagination at this time, but we are making progress.

Barry

SFandH - 2-22-2013 at 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
I have observed the pedestrian gates in TJ and they do not check most peoples papers they just hold up a plastic bag with a piece of paper and walk through and of course they do not ask anyone with light skin for proof, in fact you more likley to get a "step to the right and move along."

You have "observed the pedestrian gates in TJ". Huh? You must be thinking about the spot where you enter the building walking north. That's not where you are cleared to enter the US. Everybody's ID is thoroughly checked at counters inside the building. There are many armed agents inside and usually a couple of drug sniffing dogs being led on a short leash through the lines of people. It's tight security inside the building.

I use a passport card. The agent takes it, slides it through a card reader and then the agent's screen displays data which he reads. They always look at the photo and then at your face to make sure they match. Any bags being carried, including women's purses are put through a x-ray machine. Everybody needs the correct ID and everybody and every bag is checked.

The border is not "wide open to pedestrian crossing" as you claim, especially in San Diego / TJ area. Try sneaking across from TJ sometime, you won't get far.

[Edited on 2-22-2013 by SFandH]

Bajaboy - 2-22-2013 at 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

I'm not claiming the border is secure. I just haven't heard any politician define secure.

gnukid - 2-22-2013 at 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH

Quote:

You have "observed the pedestrian gates in TJ". Huh? Are you talking about walking north into the US? If so you must be thinking about the spot where you enter the building, that's not where you are cleared to enter the US. Everybody's ID is thoroughly checked at counters inside the building. There are many armed agents inside and usually a couple of drug sniffing dogs being led on a short leash through the lines of people. It's tight security inside the building.

I use a passport card. The agent takes it, slides it through a card reader and then the agent's screen displays data which he reads. They always look at the photo and then at your face to make sure they match. Any bags being carried, including women's purses are put through a x-ray machine. Everybody needs the correct ID and everybody and every bag is checked.

The border is not "wide open to pedestrian crossing" as you claim, especially in San Diego / TJ area. Try sneaking across from TJ sometime, you won't get far.

[Edited on 2-22-2013 by SFandH]

I have walked it many times because oftentimes we choose to get FMMs for people the day before we go, so I walk back and forth multiple times a day to assist first time crossing friends and I walk it alone too. Mexicans walk freely back and forth south to north, there is a place where they can check your documents but oftentimes they waive you through and do not check the masses of Mexicans, for example during morning walk commute 5-7am, that is the major opening for illegal crossing, either with no docs, fake docs or stolen docs not to mention the corruption of border patrol agents who look the other way for arranged passages during certain times. Sorry that this is a surprise to you. Where do you think the millions of Mexicans cross illegally, only in underground tunnels?

SFandH - 2-22-2013 at 02:50 PM

You're hallucinating.

Ateo - 2-22-2013 at 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH
You're hallucinating.

LOL

monoloco - 2-22-2013 at 03:55 PM

The best way to end illegal immigration is to require everyone to have a social security card that is instantly verifiable and make it a felony to hire an undocumented worker.

gnukid - 2-23-2013 at 10:12 AM

Do you ever notice when you cross south to north by car and the lines are backed up for hours, but they are moving. People are getting through. You watch ahead and the guy asks a question to a carload of Mexican looking people in front of you and they are off. When it's finally your turn, the gringo camper, he gets all serious and asks for your passport where have you been, what were doing there, what do you for work, do you have any items to declare, "no officer nothing, I am bringing nothing back," and he gives you a secondary sticker and when you arrive there it's only grgingo campers being searched? Why is that? Hmmm another of SF&H's Illusions?

Q. SF&H if we have a big problem with illegal immigration why isn't secondary full of Mexican cars being inspected?

A. To reinforce the illusion of security with Gringos but not to catch illegal immigrants who fuel a low cost workforce and put social pressure on communities, and further justify fear, police and prison budgets.

David K - 2-23-2013 at 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Do you ever notice when you cross south to north by car and the lines are backed up for hours, but they are moving. People are getting through. You watch ahead and the guy asks a question to a carload of Mexican looking people in front of you and they are off. When it's finally your turn, the gringo camper, he gets all serious and asks for your passport where have you been, what were doing there, what do you for work, do you have any items to declare, "no officer nothing, I am bringing nothing back," and he gives you a secondary sticker and when you arrive there it's only grgingo campers being searched? Why is that? Hmmm another of SF&H's Illusions?

Q. SF&H if we have a big problem with illegal immigration why isn't secondary full of Mexican cars being inspected?

A. To reinforce the illusion of security with Gringos but not to catch illegal immigrants who fuel a low cost workforce and put social pressure on communities, and further justify fear, police and prison budgets.

I don't believe I just read that....??? LOL I have been driving across the border a zillion times since I got my drivers license in 1973... and I have been smiled and waved across most times after one or a few simple questions... I also have been into secondary a few times, and many times more questions than usual. I am an Anglo-Saxon American, with a California accent. I have driven cars, trucks, Jeeps, campers, 4WD vans across the border... I have NEVER witnessed what gnukid sees.

DENNIS - 2-23-2013 at 10:30 AM

The problem with having a porous border isn't just people fleeing economic issues......it's the cartels and their criminal intent. Has everybody forgotten this?
Militarization is the only method available to the US [ short of dumping trillions into Mexico] that will stop this and even that wouldn't work since we couldn't control the distribution of their nuevo wealth.
Stop the cartels from running rampant through the border and another benefit will be putting a stop to the invasion of illegals without even making a seperate effort.

Ateo - 2-23-2013 at 10:36 AM

Such a complex issue.

I know one thing: We are spending a poop load of money "securing" the border. Still, anything or anyone who really wants to get across can. Drugs are my example of that statement.

Monoloco has a point above. But, something tells me our economy would crash hard if there were no illegal immigrants working in the labor force. So, ultimately I think this is nothing but a political issue that politicians use to get votes and create jobs building fences and guarding fences (Homeland Security bloat). It's another example of an enormous waste of money, IMHO.

Barry A. - 2-23-2013 at 11:09 AM

A huge part of "securing the border" is a mandatory National ID with electronic sensing on it, plus strict enforcement of laws against hiring illegals.

This can be done if the will is there.

Barry

gnukid - 2-23-2013 at 11:14 AM

The division between illegal immigrants vs legal immigrants is extremely harmful, false and racist manufactured with a complex aocio-economic agenda to fuel largess, waste, fraud, profits and to sustain the status quo for government, corporations, prison, police oppression of communities, in a hugely harmful, wasteful and truly corrupt policy which is institutionalized across North America for decades.

Dennis' point is well made, there is a vast corrupt cartel which is at the base of this that fuels the entire corrupt eco-system from military munitions sales, drug trade, police and prisons, money laundering, bribes, etc... the end result is a massive transfer of wealth out of communities into the pockets of cartels-who are not run by the under-ground-this is hidden in plain sight.

People would have to have no idea whats going on around them to miss the reality here, idiots tuned into TV and the hegelian dialetic arguing about Rush and Obama.

gnukid - 2-23-2013 at 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
A huge part of "securing the border" is a mandatory National ID with electronic sensing on it, plus strict enforcement of laws against hiring illegals.

This can be done if the will is there.

Barry

Nonsense, ids with chips means false ids with false chips. People are and have always been free to travel or use their labor for their benefit. If you want to participate in social security then yes get a valid social security number (verified by the employer). But national ids and biometrics are a rabbit hole made for corruption and go against our inherent inalienable rights as well as our constitution-those who promote national id have an agenda which has nothing to do with immigration poicy.

DENNIS - 2-23-2013 at 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo
But, something tells me our economy would crash hard if there were no illegal immigrants working in the labor force.

Unions would assure that. They are another "larger" problem.

Barry A. - 2-23-2013 at 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid

Quote:

I "promote National ID" and my only "Agenda" is helping to secure the border. I have heard the arguments on both sides ad nauseum, and the anti-ID folks just don't make the case with me. I say go for it!!! It won't totally cure the problem, but it will sure go a long way in reducing it, I believe. I see no down-side to it either since almost all "legals" in this Country already have a plethora of ID's used for many purposes.

Barry

secure border ?

akshadow - 2-23-2013 at 12:46 PM

this will cause a number of people to be outraged, but a secure border is physically possible. If it is not politically possible there should not be paths to citizenship etc.

A secure border is just that, a border that is not likely to allow unauthorized individuals, or products to cross. I believe it would be relatively easy to have such a border. It would mean that the US would need to take it serious, not just build a fence, but seriously deter illegal crossing by not apprehending, but using lethal force for anyone crossing who did not immediately stop if so directed.
How do you think armies stop enemy combatants from crossing their lines? do they ask them to stop when sited? NO

DENNIS - 2-23-2013 at 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by akshadow
It would mean that the US would need to take it serious, not just build a fence, but seriously deter illegal crossing by not apprehending, but using lethal force for anyone crossing who did not immediately stop if so directed.
How do you think armies stop enemy combatants from crossing their lines? do they ask them to stop when sited? NO

I like your determination, but in order to do what you suggest, we would literally have to declare war on Mexico. We've given up our claim to sovereignty for so long now that it's assumed we just don't care.
Besides...another war with Mexico would have different variables since they've already put their loyal forces in place NOB. :fire:

toneart - 2-23-2013 at 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

"Lethal force"? Mexico and it's citizens are not our enemy! :fire:

Just turn that around. How do you like it, Rambo?

mulegejim - 2-23-2013 at 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by akshadow
this will cause a number of people to be outraged, but a secure border is physically possible. If it is not politically possible there should not be paths to citizenship etc.

A secure border is just that, a border that is not likely to allow unauthorized individuals, or products to cross. I believe it would be relatively easy to have such a border. It would mean that the US would need to take it serious, not just build a fence, but seriously deter illegal crossing by not apprehending, but using lethal force for anyone crossing who did not immediately stop if so directed.
How do you think armies stop enemy combatants from crossing their lines? do they ask them to stop when sited? NO

Big decision - mow down the men, the women or the children first?

[Edited on 2-23-2013 by mulegejim]

DENNIS - 2-23-2013 at 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
"Lethal force"? Mexico and it's citizens are not our enemy! :fire:

Some of them are, Tony. That's a fact. I call anyone who supplies poison to our kids "the enemy."
And....to those already in the states that support a "reconquista" agenda....we are the enemy.....in our own land.
Know your enemy, Tony. It will enhance your longevity.

Ateo - 2-23-2013 at 01:41 PM

Quote:

Shoot humans for crossing? No way. We don't need to live in that world. We can do better.

Ateo - 2-23-2013 at 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Plus, Mexico's Air Force is the worlds greatest fighting force. Would you want to go up against it? :lol:

Ateo - 2-23-2013 at 01:46 PM

Dennis, with all due respect, I don't believe we will ever win this drug war. We so badly love to get high. Blow every cartel member up today and there will be a stream of 1000 more manana. Money money money!!!!!!!!!!!!

DENNIS - 2-23-2013 at 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo
Dennis, with all due respect, I don't believe we will ever win this drug war.

I couldn't agree more.
That said...one way to lose it for sure is to quit fighting it.

grizzlyfsh95 - 2-23-2013 at 02:33 PM

No.

Ateo - 2-23-2013 at 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo
Dennis, with all due respect, I don't believe we will ever win this drug war.

I couldn't agree more.
That said...one way to lose it for sure is to quit fighting it.

War was lost along time ago. All were doing now is spending BILLIONS to find a very small percentage of the drugs flowing across the border. Why not take that money and put it towards drug education and rehabilitation? Oh yeah, because law enforcement needs to keep those drug fighting funds.

Just rambling...........

DENNIS - 2-23-2013 at 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo

War was lost along time ago. All were doing now is spending BILLIONS to find a very small percentage of the drugs flowing across the border. Why not take that money and put it towards drug education and rehabilitation? Oh yeah, because law enforcement needs to keep those drug fighting funds.

Just rambling...........

If we only knew the depth of the complicity by governments on both sides. The Contra Affair comes to mind...... :?:

DENNIS - 2-23-2013 at 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by grizzlyfsh95
No.

Really? I don't know whether to agree with you or not... :?:

JoeJustJoe - 2-23-2013 at 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
The best way to end illegal immigration is to require everyone to have a social security card that is instantly verifiable and make it a felony to hire an undocumented worker.

You don't get it. Corporate America will never allow your pipe dream.

JoeJustJoe - 2-23-2013 at 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
The problem with having a porous border isn't just people fleeing economic issues......it's the cartels and their criminal intent. Has everybody forgotten this?
Militarization is the only method available to the US [ short of dumping trillions into Mexico] that will stop this and even that wouldn't work since we couldn't control the distribution of their nuevo wealth.
Stop the cartels from running rampant through the border and another benefit will be putting a stop to the invasion of illegals without even making a seperate effort.

Militarization of the border!

Wow Dennis you have been dreaming.

You think companies like "Tyson" will go along with your wet dream?

If I recall Romney and the GOP lost big time to Obama and the democrats in large part because of the over 70 percent of Latino vote that is getting larger every day.

It would be political suicide for the GOP to have the same dream of Militarization the border, not to mention this isn't something that corporate America would go along with.

The GOP better spend time figuring out how to attract the Hispanic vote instead of alienating it with talk like Dennis is engaged in.

SFandH - 2-23-2013 at 03:23 PM

From Pew Research:

"As much as 45% of the total unauthorized migrant population entered the country with visas that allowed them to visit or reside in the U.S. for a limited amount of time. "

Building walls or whatever solution that is implemented along the border will not stop that.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2006/05/22/modes-of-entry-for-the...

Also, from Pew Research:

"After four decades that brought 12 million current immigrants—most of whom came illegally—the net migration flow from Mexico to the United States has stopped and may have reversed."

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2012/04/23/net-migration-from-mex...

akshadow - 2-23-2013 at 03:26 PM

Quote:

The GOP better spend time figuring out how to attract the Hispanic vote instead of alienating it with talk like Dennis is engaged in.

Winning the presidency by agreeing to all the democrats and liberals want is not that important.
When some politicians say compromise, they really mean agree with me.

DENNIS - 2-23-2013 at 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
Militarization of the border!

Wow Dennis you have been dreaming.

You think companies like "Tyson" will go along with your wet dream?

Again, you miss my point, Joe. I'm not concerned with who sneaks into the states to dismember chickens. My concern is the cartels and their crime.
Doncha think an effort should be made to stop that....even at the expense of upsetting Janet Murgia and her La Raza mob?
The only way it's going to get done is through militarization of the border.....unless you know of something better.

monoloco - 2-23-2013 at 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid

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I agree with you Barry, I can see the civil liberty side of it, but to me it, having to possess a secure form of ID to prove that you are legal to work in the US doesn't seem much more onerous than what we go through to have a passport or driver's license. The threat of felony prosecution coupled with a streamlined process for legal guest workers would encourage employers to pursue legal alternatives. Of course that's entirely too logical to ever be seriously considered.

JoeJustJoe - 2-23-2013 at 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
Militarization of the border!

Wow Dennis you have been dreaming.

You think companies like "Tyson" will go along with your wet dream?

Oh I see Dennis. It's not the undocumented Mexicans who come here to work that you're really worried about, it's the Mexican drug cartels and the drugs the ship through the porous US/Mexican border.

Well Americans seem to have an insatiable appetite for those drugs, and the border is a few thousand miles long. It's no wonder why the Mexican drug cartels are falling all over themselves to serve the demand side of this drug problem.

The war on drugs is a dismal failure on both sides of the border, luckily on the USA side there isn't the amount of violence of the Mexican side. I just don't think your solution to militarize the border will work to keep Mexicans out in search of jobs, and I really don't think it will keep the drugs out especially when you have the criminal element with deep pockets on the Mexican said, and American junkies on the US side demanding these drugs.

I also don't think the Latinos would believe any GOP member who calls for Militarization of the border under the guise of fighting the war on drugs. Certainly no democrat would call for the militarization of the border.

Perhaps a solution to the drug problem on both sides of the border is "rehab," especially on the USA side.

JoeJustJoe - 2-23-2013 at 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid

Quote:

Monoloco your idea of criminalization hiring of working and making it a felony for employers to hire undocumented Mexican aliens would lead to racist hiring practices.

Problems like E-Verify is not perfect, and leads to a small percentage of “false negatives." In 2006 E-Verify had a 92 percent accuracy rate, and although it's better now.( I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I think it's something like 97 percent) That's still a lot of mistake the system is making, especially if you're going to make it a felony to employee a so-called "illegal immigrant."

Many Employers probably would say, they don't need the headache of a possible jail sentence, by hiring dark skin Latino looking people that could actually be born in Mexico. Perhaps these employers would only hire white people who they are pretty sure are born in the USA.

E-Verify would also cause problems to Latinos that are entitled to work in the USA, but because of computers problems, they are denied a job.

DENNIS - 2-23-2013 at 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
Perhaps a solution to the drug problem on both sides of the border is "rehab," especially on the USA side.

Yeah...right. And the answer to roads full of lousy drivers is more body shops.

Islandbuilder - 2-23-2013 at 05:55 PM

I agree that the drug war is lost, and at far too high a cost to all nations involved.
Legalize virtually all recreational drugs, establish monitored suppliers to insure purity, tax the crap out of it all, and sell it in state licensed stores.
Removing the limits on supply created by their illegality and the price will fall. The cartels will loose the potential for the profits created by the markups, and the manufacturing will go to farmers and legitimate drug manufacurers.
Take the money saved from interdiction programs, prosecutions, incarcerations and the crimes incidental to illigal drugs and use if for anti-drug education and anti-addiction clinics.
No more drug war. No more cartels, no more prison overcrowding, etc, etc.

Ateo - 2-23-2013 at 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Islandbuilder
I agree that the drug war is lost, and at far too high a cost to all nations involved.
Legalize virtually all recreational drugs, establish monitored suppliers to insure purity, tax the crap out of it all, and sell it in state licensed stores.
Removing the limits on supply created by their illegality and the price will fall. The cartels will loose the potential for the profits created by the markups, and the manufacturing will go to farmers and legitimate drug manufacurers.
Take the money saved from interdiction programs, prosecutions, incarcerations and the crimes incidental to illigal drugs and use if for anti-drug education and anti-addiction clinics.
No more drug war. No more cartels, no more prison overcrowding, etc, etc.

You make WAY too much sense. =)

woody with a view - 2-23-2013 at 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
Perhaps a solution to the drug problem on both sides of the border is "rehab," especially on the USA side.

Yeah...right. And the answer to roads full of lousy drivers is more body shops.

http://thebodyshopsandiego.com/ :lol:

Ateo - 2-23-2013 at 06:31 PM

My friend's dad owns that place woody.

desertcpl - 2-23-2013 at 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

"Lethal force"? Mexico and it's citizens are not our enemy! :fire:

Just turn that around. How do you like it, Rambo?

agree with you,, we dont need Rambo, why do people think we have to resort to this thinking, for one it will never happen

How do other (non-western) countries secure their borders?

durrelllrobert - 2-23-2013 at 07:18 PM

It's called the military and their equipment including mine fields. The US has hundreds of thousand scatterable mines that they have to get rid of. Instead of an expensive fence just have aircraft scatter these along the border and post warning signs in Spanish describing the loss of legs for anyone that atempts to cross through it.

DENNIS - 2-23-2013 at 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view
http://thebodyshopsandiego.com/ :lol:

I stand corrected. :biggrin:

Thanks, Woody.

mulegejim - 2-23-2013 at 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by durrelllrobert
It's called the military and their equipment including mine fields. The US has hundreds of thousand scatterable mines that they have to get rid of. Instead of an expensive fence just have aircraft scatter these along the border and post warning signs in Spanish describing the loss of legs for anyone that atempts to cross through it.

Not sure if border ranchers have yet provided Spanish lessons to their livestock.

DENNIS - 2-23-2013 at 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by durrelllrobert
post warning signs in Spanish describing the loss of legs for anyone that atempts to cross through it.

They'll have to be in sixty different languages just like driving tests, and then we can only hope they can read. These arn't Mexico's Rhodes Scholars out getting excercise. :light:

monoloco - 2-23-2013 at 08:36 PM

Quote:

Yeah, all the strawberry growers and chicken farmers will refuse to hire anyone who's not caucasian. We'll see how that works out for them.

JoeJustJoe - 2-24-2013 at 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
I agree with you Barry, I can see the civil liberty side of it, but to me it, having to possess a secure form of ID to prove that you are legal to work in the US doesn't seem much more onerous than what we go through to have a passport or driver's license. The threat of felony prosecution coupled with a streamlined process for legal guest workers would encourage employers to pursue legal alternatives. Of course that's entirely too logical to ever be seriously considered.

Yeah, all the strawberry growers and chicken farmers will refuse to hire anyone who's not caucasian. We'll see how that works out for them.

So Monoloco Mexican immigrants can only be strawberry growers and chicken farmers?

You do know how that sounds don't you?

BTW I'm not only talking about undocumented Mexican immigrants here. I'm also talking about dark-skinned Americans, and Mexican-Americans who might be discriminated under your employment law pipe dream that would make it a felony for any employer to hire a non US citizen, or immigrants without a green card or other proper authorization papers.

For example a perspective dark skin American with an accent could be passed over because the employer just doesn't want to take a chance that he could unknowingly hire an undocumented Mexican alien and be subject to federal felony prosecution.

This brings up another question. Aren't are jails in the USA already too full with people who commit non violent crimes like drug possession because they are really just drug addicted?

Will The Border Ever Be Secure Enough For Immigration Hawks?

toneart - 2-24-2013 at 12:50 PM

Ateo's rhetorical question in the title contains the cynicism that we all possess. That is, we all know the answer is no! :no:

monoloco - 2-24-2013 at 01:04 PM

Quote:

I'm too lazy to do a Google search, but I'm pretty sure that there isn't too big of a problem with undocumented doctors, engineers, accountants, etc. You have to provide pretty good documentation for a driver's license, bank account, and passport, so I would imagine it wouldn't be that difficult to verify one's immigration status. I believe most employers already have a pretty good idea when they are hiring someone who is not legal, if it inconveniences a few, so be it, we can always call it affirmative action for caucasians.

DENNIS - 2-24-2013 at 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
we can always call it affirmative action for caucasians.

And, it's been a long time coming.
Free at last....Free at last.........well, reasonable anyway. :biggrin:

What's YOUR Perspective ?

MrBillM - 2-24-2013 at 09:00 PM

Joe ?

"..........For example a perspective dark skin American............"

Well, OK, I would think that dark-skinned (or any shade) Americans would have a variety of perspectives depending on their education, outlook, social-status or whatever and I suppose that it might affect their employment possibilities................