BajaNomad

Residente Permanente and Driving a US registered/plated vehicle

MitchMan - 7-13-2013 at 10:48 AM

Picked up my Residente Permanente card in La Paz yesterday and talked to the people there about a Residente Permannte holder's permissibility to drive an owned US registered/plated vehicle in La Paz. None of INM people knew about any controversy and they responded emphatically that it was absolutely positively OK for a Residente Permanente to drive his US registered/plated vehicle in La Paz with impunity.

There happened to be two attorneys in the office that were there in their capacity to assist clients in obtaining visas. The older attorney was emphatic that it was OK for an RP to drive his US vehicle in LA Paz. The younger attorney was equally emphatic that it was OK. He further stated, emphatically, that because the Baja was all Free Zone territory, that any laws that prohibit an RP from driving his US owned and registered/plated vehicle in Mexico absolutely and positively did not apply to any part of the Baja because it is all Free Zone territory.

Then I showed the two attorneys a copy of a letter on SHCP-SAT-Aduana letterhead that was a response to an RP request of is options on renewing/obtaining a TIP on his US registered/plated Dodge so that he could drive it in Mexico. The letter, in no uncertain terms, told him that he could not get a TIP with the implication being that he is not allowed to drive such a vehicle in Mexico.

The logic of the letter emphasizes that TIPs are related to that "regime" of Mexican law that relates to temporary residents in Mexico and the corresponding temporary permissions given to such temporary residents. Temporary permissions are not provided for in that "regimen" of Mexican law that relates to "PERMANENT" residents.

The implication is that TIPs are limited to Temporary visitors and not to permanent residents and whether or not you, as an RP, are in a Free Zone/Prohibited territory is irrelevant. The only relevancy regarding the Free Zone is for temporary residents. If you are a temporary resident in the interior of the mainland Mexico, then you can get a TIP. If you are a temporary resident in the Baja Free Zone, you don't need a permit.

After reading the letter, the personnel at the INM in La Paz and the two attorneys kind of became mute and I could see the "pause" in their demeanor. I am corresponding with the younger attorney and he said that his going to look into the matter and contact the relevant authorities to get further input. The older attorney had attitude, was rather intolerant/impatient, short talking, didactic and feigned an air of authority...all characteristics of someone who tries to bully his position instead of researching and instead of remaining open to new information.

[Edited on 7-13-2013 by MitchMan]

monoloco - 7-13-2013 at 11:36 AM

I am not going to worry about it until I hear of people being harassed about it. If the lawyers and INM can't figure out the rules, how would anyone expect the average gringo to? It just seems like a solution looking for a problem at this point, other than at INM and airports, I have never had anyone ask us for immigration docs in over 30 years of Baja travel and living.

norte - 7-13-2013 at 11:57 AM

May I ask Mr Mitch why you are pressing this even after they said no problem?.....to the uninformed seems as though you want your letter recognized to be the law. Not something I would think most expaats would desire.

edited for spelling

[Edited on 7-13-2013 by norte]

MitchMan - 7-13-2013 at 01:44 PM

My issue is to definitively ascertain what is actually legal and what is not. The best info I have is what I posted. I have a stake in this. As I wrote, I just got my Residente Permanente yesterday. I have a Tacoma that has US Plates and I have two boat that have US plates on the trailers and one of the boats s longer than 4.5 meters and required a TIP to be used by me on the water here in Baja.

NOw with the RP status, I am trying to discern the law and whether or not I can legally drive my truck and pull my boats here in Baja. MY interpretation of things so far is that it is illegal for me to drive my truck and to pull and to use my boats here in Baja.

Obviously, I want to be able to drive my truck and pull my boats in Baja, but I absolutely need to know my actual legal ability to do so. If I can't, I have two general options: 1)change my status to Residente Temporal and continue to use my vehicle and my boats here without any more hassle and money, or 2) incur the time and energy and thousands of dollars to nationalize my truck and boats. But, in order to do anything, I need to know the actual law.

That's how I view it. If others take the position that there is no problem if they don't hear of any confiscations and are quite happy and contented to not know the actual law in this matter, fine. I do not argue with your choices. But for me, a starting point is to know the actual applicable law, and secondarily to know what is ultimately and reliably going to be the application of the law in Baja.

So, norte, I am not advocating a position other than to intelligently ascertain the on point legality of what is transpiring. If you think \that I am advocating something, that is your inference. I am hoping that I can keep my RP status and drive my US plated truck and pull and use my US registered boats while in Baja, but, so far, based on the best info that I have come across, it doesn't look like it. This is not being adversarial, this is being objective.

If anyone has hard evidence or current documented evidence to the contrary, please submit.

Mula - 7-13-2013 at 02:11 PM

At this point, I don't think even the Mexican Law Makers know what is what on this issue.

bajagrouper - 7-13-2013 at 02:41 PM

TIP= temporary import permit, it is for tourists entering Mexico on a FMM or visitors permit.

Here in the Puerto Vallarta area Federal Police are checking ex-pats and if they do not have a special letter/permit from customs allowing them 5 days to return the car to the border the federalies are confiscating cars...

DENNIS - 7-13-2013 at 04:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mula
At this point, I don't think even the Mexican Law Makers know what is what on this issue.




Or many others, for that matter. It remains a "decision for sale" system.

MitchMan - 7-14-2013 at 11:44 AM

bajagrouper,
It is my understanding that a TIP on a US plated/registered vehicle owned by holders of FMM, Inmigrante, No-Inmigrante, FM3, FM2, and Residente Temporal visas will enable such visa holders to drive their said vehicles in Prohibited, Free Zone Mexican territory WHICH INCLUDES PUERTO VALLARTA.

Based on the foregoing, it appears that the only confiscations that may be legal police procedure should be limited to those vehicles that are US registered/plated vehicles owned and driven in Puerto Vallarta by Residente Permanente holders or full on Mexican citizens driving such a US registered/plated vehicle. bajagrouper, is this the case? You mentioned that confiscations are occurring in Puerto Vallarta, but you did not define the specific visas that have been the victim of such confiscations. Specifics are crucial.

Thanks in advance, bajagrouper, for any additional light you can provide on the matter.

Santiago - 7-14-2013 at 11:56 AM

MM: keep drilling down, I'm very curious on what you find.
How about this:
Husband has an RP and wife a FMM.
Sedan title has both names but their truck is owned by a Calif Corp which in turn is owned jointly by them both.
Based on what you know, what would you advise them to drive?

MitchMan - 7-14-2013 at 12:29 PM

Santiago,
How is it that the title has both their names on it but that the corporation owns it? Are you saying that all three own the sedan in some kind of co-tenancy ownership?

I have a similar situation in that my wife and I are co-owners of our US registered/plated truck that is in La Paz. I have RP status and she holds an FMM. One nomad wrote that the FMM holder can definitely drive the vehicle in Baja and the RP holder can drive it while the FMM holder is in the Passenger seat and then went on to say that the RP holder can drive the vehicle while driving alone so long as the RP driver has a written permission to do so signed by the FMM holder/co-owner.

The only thing I am confident of is that my wife, the FMM holder, can drive our truck in Baja. I am not absolutely sure that I can drive it under any circumstances. So, currently, my wife is doing all the driving right now in La Paz.

There are other issues, namely the insurance coverage. I got an annual Qualitas policy through Lewis and Lewis in May 2013 while I was a holder of a No-Inmigrante visa. I called Lewis and Lewis last week to ask if I am covered under the policy with my new RP status and whether or not the policy would be in force if my wife was driving the vehicle. The Lewis and Lewis agent said that my policy was in force because I was not a citizen of Mexico. From her determination, she used the litmus test of whether or not I was a full on Mexican citizen or not. Since the RP status is not Mexican citizenship, then she said I was a tourist/visitor as far as Qualitas's policy coverage was concerned and since my Qualitas policy was for a tourist as opposed to a policy for a Mexican citizen, I was covered as an RP holder with the policy that I obtained in May.

I do not feel comfortable with the Lewis and Lewis litmus test. I do not have confidence that I am covered while I am driving the vehicle. In fact, if the vehicle is stolen, I feel that the insurance company will do everything it can to weasel out of covering the truck by relying on the fact that I am a "permanent" inmigrado and not a temporary tourist. I do not know that as a fact, but I do know that insurance companies will do what ever they can to get out of paying a claim if they can. That goes for all types of insurances. I once took a law class taught by a real estate oriented Judge in Orange County, CA. He said that title insurance policies were so long and hard to read because they were loaded with exceptions to coverage.

With regard to whether or not said policy is in force while my wife drives, the agent said yes and referred me to page 2 of the policy where it states the any driver that has my permission to drive my covered truck is covered by the policy. So, I do feel confident that the policy provides its coverage when my wife drives our truck.

Man, this is a freakin' nightmare.

I am leaving in a couple of weeks, but I will be back in La Paz in October. I plan on renting a car for that trip. I am stalling on my surrendering my RP status in order to get Residente Temporal status because I am waiting to get more reliable feed back on these issues. But, the more I deliberate, I keep coming back to getting Residente Temporal as the solution...but I will hold off a bit more.
I am not any attorney, but I don't have much confidence in what the Lewis and Lewis agent said.

[Edited on 7-14-2013 by MitchMan]

chuckie - 7-14-2013 at 02:13 PM

Gets more complicated all the time....

Pescador - 7-14-2013 at 02:28 PM

Mitchman, I am surprised that someone who is such a stickler for detail would end up in a country like Mexico which is not, nor has ever been known for being detailed about any facet of life. Look at the pages of what went on and all of the interpretations concerning Residente Permanente applications and rules. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to get one government agency, namely immigration, to concur and agree on a new law that was put in to place. Now you expect that the Aduana office is going to understand all of the nuances of Residente Permanente and adjust car issue. I am sure you can go all the way to Mexico City and not get any clearer than you are now.
In my research, I come pretty much to the same conclusion that Lewis and Lewis has shared, that if you get citizenship, the issue is clear, but not so much with the New Residente Permanente.

rts551 - 7-14-2013 at 03:12 PM

Sometimes people will not give up until they get the answer they are looking for.

chuckie - 7-14-2013 at 03:14 PM

Often true....

DENNIS - 7-14-2013 at 03:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
Sometimes people will not give up until they get the answer they are looking for.



Tell 'em what they want to hear, Ralph.....whatever it is. It's the merciful thing to do. :yes:

bajagrouper - 7-14-2013 at 06:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MitchMan
bajagrouper,
It is my understanding that a TIP on a US plated/registered vehicle owned by holders of FMM, Inmigrante, No-Inmigrante, FM3, FM2, and Residente Temporal visas will enable such visa holders to drive their said vehicles in Prohibited, Free Zone Mexican territory WHICH INCLUDES PUERTO VALLARTA.

Based on the foregoing, it appears that the only confiscations that may be legal police procedure should be limited to those vehicles that are US registered/plated vehicles owned and driven in Puerto Vallarta by Residente Permanente holders or full on Mexican citizens driving such a US registered/plated vehicle. bajagrouper, is this the case? You mentioned that confiscations are occurring in Puerto Vallarta, but you did not define the specific visas that have been the victim of such confiscations. Specifics are crucial.

Thanks in advance, bajagrouper, for any additional light you can provide on the matter.


Sorry, I miss read the article, the federales were confiscating cars with "EXPIRED TIP's"...

CortezBlue - 7-14-2013 at 08:48 PM

If you received the same letter I did and if you look carefully, it refers to Permanent and Non Permanent card holders. Mine says nothing about car plates or registration of my vehicle.

MitchMan - 7-15-2013 at 09:33 AM

I think that most of you guys have more experience in Baja than I do. Given what is known at this time, what do you guys recommend? In view of your comments, I am open to your take on this.

If you were/are in La Paz today and you have Residente Permanente status today and you only own a US registered/plated 15 year old 4x4 Tacoma blue book valued at $6,500 USD with a Qualitas annual policy first written when you had the Inmigrante status two months ago, and you have a boat and trailer both of which are registered in the USA with a California license plate on the trailer, what would you guys do? All things considered, would YOU drive the car in La Paz or anywhere in the Baja today? Would you pull the boat and trailer with it today?

While there are some unchartered waters, figuratively speaking, with regard to this issue, there is no substitute, in most things, for solid experience, experience that you guys may have.

Honestly, and sincerely, and specifically, what would you guys do, bottom line? I'm not asking you to tell me what to do, nor am I asking you for legal advice, just your honest and sincere opinion as to what you would do today in La Paz in the situation described above? Pescador? rts551? bajagrouper? Dennis? Cortezblue? I've always believed that there is strength in numbers.

rts551 - 7-15-2013 at 09:54 AM

Immigrado for 8 years and never have worried about my cars, boat, quads or trailer. Stopped once in La Paz by Federal Police for registration check on the quads and trailer. No problem. In general I don't think that immigration is an issue in Baja and Baja Sur although some day that may change

CortezBlue - 7-15-2013 at 10:06 AM

I am assuming that the car will be in Mexico permanently?

If that is the case, I would register your vehicle in South Dakota www.claycountysd.org

I would plead ignorance, if that doesn't work there is always modida!!

capitolkat - 7-15-2013 at 10:36 AM

Mitch--I think that the rules are in flux- the ones for Baja are never going to align with those from the mainland as they start from different points- you had to have a TIP on the mainland, not in Baja. Like the folks you talked to at IMS- the general feeling is no need to replate your car for a RP. Recently one of the popular locals who helps with visas was quoted on a la Paz site that there is no requirement for a change to Mexican plates with the RP. Another poster contacted his insurance agent _ Lewis and Lewis- and they confirmed no need to change plates just because of the RP.

I'll probably get my RP in the next few weeks ( application has been in for a couple of weeks) and I think that with all the information on the subject- I do not plan to worry until something definitive is issued. Baja has always been a free zone- and nothing has changed that. That is the primary regulation that is in play and no one I've seen in any position of authority in Baja has said different.

The IMS officials you talked to said the same, the local who handles many/ many visa applications said the same. Lewis and Lewis who insure countless vehicles said no need to replate. You know if you confront Mexican officials they can waffle- but I take their first answer as the one they believe. I've not seen a single RP holder who has had a problem in Baja.

That's my position and I'm sticking to it just like filing the foreign trust docs. You never needed to file them if all you had was a residence held by fidecomiso. The IRS recently confirmed that position. sometimes we beat ourselves to death trying to jump through hoops that aren't even there. Despite the clarification by the IRS some folks still file the foreign trust docs- go figure why??-- Looking for problems that aren't there-?maybe.

karenintx - 7-15-2013 at 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pescador

In my research, I come pretty much to the same conclusion that Lewis and Lewis has shared, that if you get citizenship, the issue is clear, but not so much with the New Residente Permanente.


Not trying to muddy the waters but when talking about this with the hubby his remark was..."so how do you explain all the Mexican citizens you see driving (in CSL, SJD,T/S area) a vehicle with California license plates? Do you think their cars are illegal and if they were, don't you think the Feds/Police would jump on that bandwagon?"

About three months ago we were at Cabo Mail Box, talking with the owner about USA/ Mexican plated vehicles. He is married to a Mexican citizen and she works in the office. She explained to us that she is stopped all the time when she is driving her USA plated vehicle and is required to prove the car is titled/registered in her name and that she has a USA DL. She explained "of course they are looking for a mordida" which she does not pay, but in the end she drives away with her vehicle, USA DL, title/registration and the only thing she has lost is her time.

OK, now I will muddy the waters. Here is our situation.
1. South Dakota Plates
2. Just received our R/P
3. Have Texas DL
4. Currently have an expired "TIP" sticker on our windshield.

So what are we to do? If we take the sticker off the windshield would the Feds/Police know about the sticker...is it in their computers? Chances of this vehicle going back to the USA are slim to none but if it did we would drive it up The Baja, not over to the mainland via the ferry.

Edited to add;
When we inquired @ CSL INM about a R/P having to get Mexican plates the agent said "INM has nothing to do with cars, INM only wants to know that you are in this country legally so you would need to ask the Police this question."

I guess when you think about the agents statement, that is true. I don't think the USA Immigration concerns itself with license plates but then I could be wrong.

[Edited on 7-15-2013 by karenintx]

redmesa - 7-15-2013 at 11:03 AM

My 2 cents... They check sometimes here in Bahia Asuncion for titles but only want to see that you have title and a drivers license. If it matches then everything seems okay. They even did this at the border coming down this last time. I think they are mainly looking for stolen vehicles etc. They never have asked for any other papers. I know that some Mexican friends really avoid the stops. They are driving iffy registered cars and probably no insurance or DL. I have even seen a preteen boy driving a huge semi with trailer around town. I just wait until someone tells me to do something and then if I am late I beg stupidity defense. Now, if you are on the water that is another story.

Alan - 7-15-2013 at 11:25 AM

Mike, I know that they CAN ask for your visa or immigration status at any time but in actual practice the only times I have ever been asked to show my visa (for me an FMM) was once at the Guererro Negro Ag Check Station and of course at the airport when boarding a return flight. You have current CA plated vehicles and a current CA Driver's license. I would think the odds are exremely miniscule that it will ever become an issue for you.

Santiago - 7-15-2013 at 04:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MitchMan
Santiago,
How is it that the title has both their names on it but that the corporation owns it? Are you saying that all three own the sedan in some kind of co-tenancy ownership?


Sorry: the sedan is owned by the individuals; the truck is owned by the corp.

I suggest a test on the insurance. Go put your truck in storage and then turn it in as stolen and see what happens.
OK, prolly not a good idea but it would get the ball rolling.:coolup:

MitchMan - 7-16-2013 at 08:32 AM

Thank you for all the responses. Nomads are great...and very savvy.

I must admit that your responses have made me breath a bit easier on this matter. It looks like the bottom line is as most of you have insinuated and that is "don't sweat it at this time". Like I said before, I do believe that there is strength in numbers and most all of you are in accord with each other.

Very helpful, I am very grateful for the input. I am in communication with a Mexican attorney who is officially looking into the situation in La Paz. I will keep you posted on anything new that learn.
MitchMan

Pescador - 7-16-2013 at 01:06 PM

I had a problem years ago getting into Sonora with a vehicle that was registered with two names. So instead of vacationing in Sonora, I came to Baja because it was a free zone with regard to vehicles. After driving the length of the peninsula, I figured I would try to get on the ferry at La Paz and sure enough, they accepted the paperwork and title that was rejected in Sonora. The mainland has always had an issue with what is allowed in terms of cars and they have checked the residency status of people and sometimes will not allow a vehicle plated in the US with a permanent resident or the old inmagrado.
I do not believe that is happening in the Baja either north or south and I suspect that no one, at this time, is into enforcing anything else.
So yes, I drive a SD plated car, Boat trailer, Truck, and cargo trailer, with a Colorado Drivers License and travel all over the peninsula with any or all of those vehicles. Until such time as I begin to hear otherwise, I will continue to do so. I have asked the question of official people in Immigration, Aduana, court, police, and Federal Police and never have I heard anything different.

DavidE - 7-16-2013 at 01:28 PM

Very different here than on the mainland as far as APPLICATION of the law.

I don't ask a fireman whether it's legal to carry a loaded firearm, nor do I ask a cop how to douse a kitchen grease fire.

Technically it is ILLEGAL for a residente permanente to drive anything other than a Mexican nacional or frontera motor vehicle. The law says your permission to drive is based upon your immigration status. Driver license and license plates have to agree with your immigration status. That is how it is keyed.

I spent three hours in the shade of a parota tree on the side of Mex 200 with a commandante de SSP reading his big black book with him. joaquin baez is his name and he is the jefe of the Petlatlán Guerrero office of the SSP. The law is crystal clearly written. His men at the puesto de control challenged my right to drive a motor vehicle with a valid FM-3, driver license, and expired 180-day Temporary Import Permit. Señor Baez came to my rescue.

Written as law is that any sanctioned police officer anywhere at any time can demand to see your picture ID, your immigration legality, your motor vehicle paperwork and permit if applicable.

HOW IT IS APPLIED is what causes the confusion.

I've said this dozens of times on this forum ASK THE PROFESSIONALS. In this case the PFP. Federal Police do not mind at all if you ask them a question. As a matter of fact they seem to beam with pleasure. But it would be best to go directly to the PFP office in your area and ask a supervisor.

Traffic cops cannot find their ASK with both hands, so if you want a 6th grade level of education answer ask a transito. To verify what I wrote above as being fact ask a FEDERAL PFP officer.

DENNIS - 7-16-2013 at 03:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DavidE
The law is crystal clearly written.



Is it only for LE eyes? Why can't we see it?
I wanna see it. :o

DavidE - 7-16-2013 at 04:14 PM

Written crystal clear

Applied, like glops of mud, straw and manure.

I've run into too many strait-laced PFP to make me comfortable with the idea but Baja California is a different universe from Mexico. Most of the PFP I see these days prowl between Guerrero Negro and Vizcaino altho I did see a patrulla in Asuncion a few months ago.

The OP asked a specific question and I attempted to give the best answer I could. Nothing urinates a cop off more than to be told in bad Spanish that a law that he is legally enforcing does not exist (cabrón). It is always nice to know the reality behind the situation as one deals with the here and now.

[Edited on 7-16-2013 by DavidE]

DENNIS - 7-16-2013 at 04:23 PM

What kind of society keeps the written law from the citizenry?

rts551 - 7-16-2013 at 05:08 PM

just ask David. he has all the answers.....oops some are made up

Pescador - 7-17-2013 at 10:07 AM

Well, the Federal Police (pandas) in Santa Rosalia have a completely different interpretation and because Baja California did not require a TIP they concur that your immigration status does not affect the legality of your automobile. I have heard from very creditible sources that there is a problem in the other states of Mexico but the Federales told me no problem in Baja California Sur as long as the registration is current and correct. So until I hear from some creditible source that we have a problem, I am not changing anything, especially based on some thing that happened somewhere to someones uncle who probably had a garage full of AMWAY products, a South Dakota license plate, and a California Drivers License.

DavidE - 7-17-2013 at 12:29 PM

RIGHT ON PESCADOR!

Asking the PFP their interpretation is IMHO the way to go. Why? Because it is they who can be the most strict about registration, and licenses.

RTS 551, I have answers because I ask questions of officials who know Mexican law and how it is applied. Another lesson I learned is that it is far easier (a snap in fact) to offer vague criticism than it is to help with facts. So I prefer facts.

New Import Regulations for RP Holders

LaRibereña - 10-14-2014 at 09:30 AM

http://www.bajainsider.com/baja-business/importingregisterin...

bajaguy - 10-14-2014 at 09:35 AM

Looks like a cleverly designed ad to drum up business for ACV..........
Quote:
Originally posted by LaRibereña
http://www.bajainsider.com/baja-business/importingregisterin...