BajaNomad

Salsipuedes Canyon by Fatbike

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David K - 12-28-2013 at 10:14 AM

Hi Larry, for sure he is in Salsipuedes... La Asamblea is much farther north, and Salsipuedes soon turns north and will join La Asamblea about 5 miles from the gulf coast.

Spot Signal #12:

Your Local Time:
12/27/2013 10:36:12 AM
Coordinates: (WGS84)
29.27042 , -113.99286
Message Detail:
SPOT Check OK.

[Edited on 12-28-2013 by David K]

Marks blog

DosMars - 12-28-2013 at 01:06 PM

Not sure if Mark linked to his blog, but you can get a feel for some of the off the beaten path trips he's done by mountain bike and inflateable kayak up in British Columbia here:

http://markbc.net/around-the-coast-mountains/

I invited Mark on his first Baja trip back in '97 and he's been up for flying down to join on trips even after moving back up north.

He came down for a ten day trip to the BoLA I put together in May. While poking around the site getting jazzed up for the trip I ran across Larry's write up of his Salsipuedes trip by quad. I forwarded the link to Mark and a few other folks I'd invited. Between that write up and some google-earth scouting he really got the bug to do this trip.

Wish the timing would have worked out better to have joined him... Next time for sure!

-Mark...

DosMars - 12-28-2013 at 01:17 PM

Hmmm... Looks like he did some backtracking this morning...?

It does look that way

John M - 12-28-2013 at 01:44 PM

Possibly a re-route? We'll see what the next spot tells, that should be definitive, for now. John M

Neal Johns - 12-28-2013 at 03:19 PM

I think he gave it up, less that a mile and a half back to the road. Progress was very slow. Hope he knows where the ranch is.

DosMars - 12-28-2013 at 05:25 PM

Almost back to the head of the canyon and the jump off point from the road in. That's as much distance in one day as headway down the canyon up until last night.
I'm guessing he scouted down the canyon and decided to reassess things...

Or, he got scared off by a leftover holdout of the Cochimí Indians up that canyon!


[Edited on 12-29-2013 by DosMars]

Spot Signals on 12-28-13

David K - 12-28-2013 at 05:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DosMars
Almost back to the head of the canyon and the jump off point from the road in. That's as much distance in one day as headway down the canyon up until last night.
I'm guessing he scouted down the canyon and decided to reassess things...

Or, he got scared off by a leftover holdout of the Cochimí Indians up that canyon!


[Edited on 12-29-2013 by DosMars]




Spot 13 is by old Spot 8 and Spot 14 is at old Spot 6, just off the ranch road... So yes, he returned back to the starting point of Dec. 25. I would guess that he came to a waterfall or boulders he couldn't get around where the wash he was going down merged with the main Salsipuedes (by Spot 12)?



I hope he tries using that far north road that meets the main Salsipuedes, if that works for his quest! It meets Salsipuedes near the last s in Salsipuedes on the map.

Link to Spot:
http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=...

Pacifico - 12-29-2013 at 07:39 AM

Waiting for an update.....interested in what stopped him. Hope all is well with him!

DosMars - 12-29-2013 at 08:02 AM

I'm guessing portaging over those boulders was eating up more time than he has to work with. When we were down in May we drove up to the dry lakebed closest to one of the feeder canyons that leads into Salsipuedes. My guess is he'll drive up and try hiking in from there. Then he'll be able to finish up by riding up the canyon that dumps out just six miles from where his ride will end. Shorter paddle and a car-ride back to BoLA instead of a long bike ride.

Just a guess, but he'll probably be online in a day or so with an update.

larryC - 12-29-2013 at 09:40 AM

I was a little concerned when I saw that he had ridden to the end of the road and headed down that way. There are really large boulders and drop offs that way. Along the road before you get to the ranchos, where the large granite ridge is sticking up is another entrance to Salsipuedes and may be a little easier to get into. Too bad there is no way to get that info to Mark. He'll probably figure it out, I don't think he is a beginner at this stuff.

woody with a view - 12-29-2013 at 09:47 AM

can't wait for the details.

David K - 12-29-2013 at 12:08 PM

Nothing new yet this morning from his Spot page. The Spot numbers did alter by one... What was #14 is now #13 (and the old #6 is now #5)... but at the same locations as before.

Update 12-29-13 2:25pm: Desengaño Mine

David K - 12-29-2013 at 03:55 PM

Your Local Time:
12/29/2013 2:25:23 PM
Coordinates: (WGS84)
29.11637 , -114.03148
Message Detail:
SPOT Check OK.

Mark is along the old dirt road to L.A. Bay at the El Desengaño mine ruins...



That road going north is the road to Tinaja de Yubay and Rock Palm Hill... That big X clearing is the Desengaño airport, from when the mine was active, a long time ago.




[Edited on 12-29-2013 by David K]

Barry A. - 12-29-2013 at 06:28 PM

Well, this is disappointing, but not that surprising actually, I guess. I am sure curious as to what he ran into, and what his route was to get down to Desengano?

Barry

Neal Johns - 12-29-2013 at 06:54 PM

It is going to be an interesting trip report.

David K - 12-29-2013 at 09:21 PM

It would seem to me... just a guess mind you... he came on back down the ranch road to Hwy. 1, which is also where the original dirt L.A. Bay road meets Hwy. 1 (the old main Baja road is just a bit west of the new highway)... Mark then went on the old L.A. Bay road to Desengaño. Tomorrow's Spot signal will tell us perhaps if he goes onto the dry lake bed or heads on to town?

larryC - 12-30-2013 at 10:47 AM

Darn, I figured he had a pretty good chance to make it down into there. I saw pictures of his bike in the thread but I didn't notice a pic of his trailer. Maybe it was too big to get over some of those boulders. I guess Mark is solo, which makes it even harder. Hope he tries again.

woody with a view - 12-30-2013 at 11:55 AM

so you're saying spot track #14 is an actual road? why doesn't it show up better on the GE pic?

Barry A. - 12-30-2013 at 01:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
so you're saying spot track #14 is an actual road? why doesn't it show up better on the GE pic?


Woody-----I believe that straight-line between the "spots" is NOT a road, but don't know for sure. I too, like David K., am guessing that he got to Desengano via the historic old dirt track road into BOLA------a beautiful way to get into BOLA even to this day, IMO.

Barry

Neal Johns - 12-30-2013 at 04:52 PM

He is on the BOLA road now, about 10 miles to BOLA.

David K - 12-30-2013 at 05:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
so you're saying spot track #14 is an actual road? why doesn't it show up better on the GE pic?


Woody-----I believe that straight-line between the "spots" is NOT a road, but don't know for sure. I too, like David K., am guessing that he got to Desengano via the historic old dirt track road into BOLA------a beautiful way to get into BOLA even to this day, IMO.

Barry


THIS.

The Spot just connects each new signal location with a straight line. Spot location #14 is where he sent the signal from... a few hundred feet north of the road in the mine area. You can clearly see the roads, the old airport, and mine area.

12-30-13 2:52 pm PST

David K - 12-30-2013 at 05:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal Johns
He is on the BOLA road now, about 10 miles to BOLA.



Your Local Time:
12/30/2013 2:52:45 PM
Coordinates: (WGS84)
28.97412 , -113.71455
Message Detail:
SPOT Check OK.



The numbers change every day... today (Monday) he is at #13, and Desengaño is showing today as #12. #2 is on the ranch road midway between Hwy. 1 and the Salsipuedes wash access Mark used.

[Edited on 12-31-2013 by David K]

DosMars - 12-30-2013 at 06:55 PM

Not sure if he was able to get a firm start date from his work regarding their next job, but he was guessing around the 13th. That gives him a couple of more weeks to try getting in through the dry lakes.
Should be getting a check-in with an update some time tomorrow...

David K - 12-30-2013 at 11:59 PM

Mark, I would like to know if he tried getting in at the farther north road and just didn't send a Spot signal from it, north from where he entered the arroyo off the ranch road? That northernmost road goes right to an arroyo that is part of La Asamblea (over that hill north from Salsipuedes where he was).

The first image is higher up... 'Trail' is next to the arroyo where Mark hiked in with his Spot. 'Road' is the end of the road in one of the La Asamblea tributaries.




DosMars - 12-31-2013 at 02:21 AM

I imagine he followed the road to that spot on google-earth as he was prepping for the trip, but he was pretty excited about checking out those pools and palms in the canyon he started out in.

I wish I knew how to lay down a path on the iPad version of google-earth. I'm curious about the distances he's been riding and how much water he's been going through.

David K - 12-31-2013 at 09:37 AM

The actual part in the wash (arroyo) was less than 3 miles (orig. point 6 to point 12, at Salsipuedes jcn.).

Now, if he is riding his bike to Bahía de los Angeles from there, that's close to 60 miles from the trail, and over 30 miles of that is paved on the route he is using.

Typo fixed, thank you Woody! There is an accent on that i too!:lol::light:

[Edited on 12-31-2013 by David K]

woody with a view - 12-31-2013 at 09:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Now, if he is riding his bike to Bahiia de los Angeles from there, that's close to 60 miles from the trail, and over 30 miles of that is paved on the route he is using.


anyone seen the spelling cop?:lol:

Mark_BC - 12-31-2013 at 11:30 AM

Hey guys I made it back. It's really beautiful up there, that canyon is unlike anywhere I've seen. It was pretty rough with a few cliffs and rocks to lower my gear down. I hiked the last 3 km on that wash to the beginnings of the pools and there was no way I'd be able to get through. The terrain is the big granite rocks like at Catavina, but vertical. I could have possibly explored a little further if I wanted to hike over hills of giant boulders but decided it was too dangerous to do by myself. I also wasnt sure if my spot was getting through. With multiple people and some proper climbing gear you could probably go further down. Then I backtracked out and headed back via desangano and then the highway. Last night I didn't get much sleep with a pack of coyotes tipping all around me.

So this place is as rough to get in as get out. It seems the only other entry point besides la botica is that other long wash that goes south and heads to the west of laguna seca, over the hills. We checked that out from afar last June, it looks passable. But I'd like to check that out by foot first if anyone is in the area and wants to go explore. Then if the recon checks out ok we could start planning the next attempt... How far up did you get with the quads, Larry?

Mark_BC - 12-31-2013 at 11:37 AM

Hey mark you got your id sorted out! I can receive emails here but not send, hotmail wants to verify its me by sending me a code on my phone but I have no coverage here... So just send me a p2p message on this site and I can access those. Are you still planning to come down that weekend? I'll have to check through my emails, not sure if I'm needed at work.

The bike's ok, just a few minor dings.

woody with a view - 12-31-2013 at 12:33 PM

sweet!

mtgoat666 - 12-31-2013 at 12:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_BC
Hey guys I made it back. It's really beautiful up there, that canyon is unlike anywhere I've seen. It was pretty rough with a few cliffs and rocks to lower my gear down. I hiked the last 3 km on that wash to the beginnings of the pools and there was no way I'd be able to get through. The terrain is the big granite rocks like at Catavina, but vertical. I could have possibly explored a little further if I wanted to hike over hills of giant boulders but decided it was too dangerous to do by myself. I also wasnt sure if my spot was getting through. With multiple people and some proper climbing gear you could probably go further down. Then I backtracked out and headed back via desangano and then the highway. Last night I didn't get much sleep with a pack of coyotes tipping all around me.

So this place is as rough to get in as get out. It seems the only other entry point besides la botica is that other long wash that goes south and heads to the west of laguna seca, over the hills. We checked that out from afar last June, it looks passable. But I'd like to check that out by foot first if anyone is in the area and wants to go explore. Then if the recon checks out ok we could start planning the next attempt... How far up did you get with the quads, Larry?


Rocks rule! So to speak.

Did the ponds look like they hold permanent water? Was it drinkable? (i.e. not too salty)

motoged - 12-31-2013 at 01:11 PM

Mother Earth wins again....

Salsipuedes - get out while you can.

Mark_BC - 12-31-2013 at 01:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666

Rocks rule! So to speak.

Did the ponds look like they hold permanent water? Was it drinkable? (i.e. not too salty)


I would guess not. They were beginning to dry out with mud caking, and it had rained only weeks before. It would be good to know this for sure though since if you went in from the Laguna Seca side that would be a good place to recharge your water supplies. It's hard to say, they go on for a couple km and I only encountered the first one.

It was green and bubbling so probably not drinkable without further filtering. The uppermost part of the wash is a cattle grazing area and there is dung and cattle everywhere in an open stream. That is what is feeding it.

The good part is that it's "easy" to hike into that area. The upper 10 km of that road in is rough but typical terrain for a jeep. Then it's only a few km hike in from there, you could easily do it in a day from where you park your jeep. Just a few rocky areas you'd have to negotiate but with only a backpack and multiple people it should be fairly straightforward. What the terrain gets like after that first pool would be interesting to know, but based on Google Earth it looks like it gets pretty crazy until it turns north into the main wash.

larryC - 12-31-2013 at 02:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_BC
Hey guys I made it back. It's really beautiful up there, that canyon is unlike anywhere I've seen. It was pretty rough with a few cliffs and rocks to lower my gear down. I hiked the last 3 km on that wash to the beginnings of the pools and there was no way I'd be able to get through. The terrain is the big granite rocks like at Catavina, but vertical. I could have possibly explored a little further if I wanted to hike over hills of giant boulders but decided it was too dangerous to do by myself. I also wasnt sure if my spot was getting through. With multiple people and some proper climbing gear you could probably go further down. Then I backtracked out and headed back via desangano and then the highway. Last night I didn't get much sleep with a pack of coyotes tipping all around me.

So this place is as rough to get in as get out. It seems the only other entry point besides la botica is that other long wash that goes south and heads to the west of laguna seca, over the hills. We checked that out from afar last June, it looks passable. But I'd like to check that out by foot first if anyone is in the area and wants to go explore. Then if the recon checks out ok we could start planning the next attempt... How far up did you get with the quads, Larry?


Mark
On the trip I was on in '04 we got about 12 miles up the canyon. On the 2010 trip the guys got all the way up to the dry lake, Botica dry lake for want of a better name. I think the canyon you headed down (at the end of the road) goes on down into what ESGardener called La Asamblea. who knows what the real name is. Up at the top of the canyon, along the road before you get to the ranchos there is a big granite ridge and right near there if you hunt you will find another canyon entrance that might be an easier way in. Or it might not. the easiest way I found was by boat. Now that you have seen that country doesn't it give you a lot of respect for what ES Gardeners crew was able to do 50 years ago?
Larry

David K - 12-31-2013 at 05:48 PM

It can be confusing when so many routes are discussed... According to Mark's Spot signals he was in a branch of Salsipuedes, and his final Spot before turning back is where the wash he was going down met the main Salsipuedes (per the map name). The pin called 'Trail' is next to Mark's arroyo.

The road continues north, past where Mark entered the arroyo system and goes to the back side of that dark hill and meets a branch of La Asamblea system (marked 'Road' on the following image).

Once in the La Asamblea system, you can go to the gulf or at least to where Salsipuedes joins La Asamblea a few miles from the gulf.




Edit: note scale bar on image... that is just over 1 mile long.

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by David K]

Mark's Spots in Arroyo system

David K - 12-31-2013 at 06:14 PM



#1 & 9 on the above image is near the ranch road. #7 is where that arroyo meets the main Salsipuedes arroyo... originally was Spot 12, as drawn on map...



The ranch road continues north and meets with an arroyo that joins La Asamblea (note north flowing arroyo on map going into Arroyo la Asamblea).

Too bad Google Earth is still not at a high enough resolution to see boulders that can block progress.

Thanks for sharing your attempt with us Mark! BillB (the Rokon rider) is following this and has been rooting for your success too!

motoged - 12-31-2013 at 07:33 PM

David,
Thank you for some great mapwork !:saint:

As a visual person, you have helped create a context for understanding this adventure.

And Mark,...congratulations on the adventure :cool:

Mark_BC - 12-31-2013 at 08:02 PM

Actually I'm not sure that's drawn right on the Baja Almanac map. I started in the main Salsipuedes drainage, but the road follows it further, all the way up to near its headwaters on that map. You will see a ranch at 29,16'33'' 114,2'53''. That is in the drainage. I turned off the road way before that, at 29,15'37'' 114,1'17''. From there the wash leaves the route of the road and heads east-northeast. I rode that to the beginnings of the actual canyon, at 29,15'43'' 114,1'6'' where I camped the first night in the canyon. From there I followed the main Salsipuedes drainage down, but it's in the canyon from then on.

It was that evening that Jimmy the local rancher followed my tracks into the canyon and said hi. I was a bit startled and we spoke for a few minutes. He said there are paintings on the other side (north west side?) of the big granite monument directly to the northwest of that spot. I didn't think it was safe to go up alone. He said he was from a few kilometers up the road, and I asked if it was Asamblea and he said yes. He was friendly. In hindsight I wish I had asked him if there was water there year round but I wasn't really prepared to just see him like that. I don't think he knows much about the canyon downstream of his cattle because he said it should take two days to ride to the ocean! So I guess he's never been down to the pools as far as I went. Interestingly down in that last section of wash before the pools, at the side of the channel, there is a bunch of black ABS pipe that they use for moving water around. So someone has been there and tried to set up some kind of a water system.

Before the road goes to his ranch there is a Y which goes right off into Asamblea, down the wash a ways. I don't have the bandwidth right now to look into the details of that but I remember looking before I came down and it looked pretty rocky most of the way. My concern would be, and was, if you go a long ways down the canyon, like more than halfway in terms of time, and you've committed yourself to get to the ocean to find water, but you come across some impassable obstacle, then what do you do. That is what Asamblea kind of looks like to me, it looks rough almost all the way down to the junction with Salsipuedes. On the other hand Salsipuedes looks pretty easy once you get through the upper canyon. From the confluence at 29,16'46'' 113,58'21'' it looks clear sailing all the way to the ocean except for that jumble of rocks 400 m to the north which looks passable. That's why I would like to look into entering using that confluence at the coordinates in the previous sentence, and instead try from the wash that enters from the south-east. That terrain is not the blocky granite boulders, it is your typical desert terrain. It doesn't look too bad. I'd enter from Laguna Seca through the pass at 29,14'52'' 113,56'27'' which is actually lower in elevation than where I entered Salsipuedes canyon! But it should be scouted out on foot first, a nice little overnight trip, if you can get a vehicle and drive up there.

Those granite boulder areas are really deceptive in Google Earth. Some sections that were totally indecipherable from GE were a breeze and others that didn't look too bad were difficult or impassable. Because the rocks are vertical!

Yeah it's amazing what they did, considering all the technology and Google Earth we have now.

I got all the pics and video onto my computer. The pics are OK but there's some really great video.

DEVEAU - 12-31-2013 at 08:12 PM

Mark, very impressive adventure. Love the story of meeting Jimmy.

I assume this is all North of Window Rock.

mtgoat666 - 12-31-2013 at 08:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_BC
Actually I'm not sure that's drawn right on the Baja Almanac map. I started in the main Salsipuedes drainage, but the road follows it further, all the way up to near its headwaters on that map. You will see a ranch at 29,16'33'' 114,2'53''. That is in the drainage. I turned off the road way before that, at 29,15'37'' 114,1'17''. From there the wash leaves the route of the road and heads east-northeast. I rode that to the beginnings of the actual canyon, at 29,15'43'' 114,1'6'' where I camped the first night in the canyon. From there I followed the main Salsipuedes drainage down, but it's in the canyon from then on.

It was that evening that Jimmy the local rancher followed my tracks into the canyon and said hi. I was a bit startled and we spoke for a few minutes. He said there are paintings on the other side (north west side?) of the big granite monument directly to the northwest of that spot. I didn't think it was safe to go up alone. He said he was from a few kilometers up the road, and I asked if it was Asamblea and he said yes. He was friendly. In hindsight I wish I had asked him if there was water there year round but I wasn't really prepared to just see him like that. I don't think he knows much about the canyon downstream of his cattle because he said it should take two days to ride to the ocean! So I guess he's never been down to the pools as far as I went. Interestingly down in that last section of wash before the pools, at the side of the channel, there is a bunch of black ABS pipe that they use for moving water around. So someone has been there and tried to set up some kind of a water system.

Before the road goes to his ranch there is a Y which goes right off into Asamblea, down the wash a ways. I don't have the bandwidth right now to look into the details of that but I remember looking before I came down and it looked pretty rocky most of the way. My concern would be, and was, if you go a long ways down the canyon, like more than halfway in terms of time, and you've committed yourself to get to the ocean to find water, but you come across some impassable obstacle, then what do you do. That is what Asamblea kind of looks like to me, it looks rough almost all the way down to the junction with Salsipuedes. On the other hand Salsipuedes looks pretty easy once you get through the upper canyon. From the confluence at 29,16'46'' 113,58'21'' it looks clear sailing all the way to the ocean except for that jumble of rocks 400 m to the north which looks passable. That's why I would like to look into entering using that confluence at the coordinates in the previous sentence, and instead try from the wash that enters from the south-east. That terrain is not the blocky granite boulders, it is your typical desert terrain. It doesn't look too bad. I'd enter from Laguna Seca through the pass at 29,14'52'' 113,56'27'' which is actually lower in elevation than where I entered Salsipuedes canyon! But it should be scouted out on foot first, a nice little overnight trip, if you can get a vehicle and drive up there.

Those granite boulder areas are really deceptive in Google Earth. Some sections that were totally indecipherable from GE were a breeze and others that didn't look too bad were difficult or impassable. Because the rocks are vertical!

Yeah it's amazing what they did, considering all the technology and Google Earth we have now.

I got all the pics and video onto my computer. The pics are OK but there's some really great video.


The local ranchers probably know the way(s). Ditch the google earth and interview the local ranchers. There are caballeros been all over that country, but would take time to track them down.

David K - 1-1-2014 at 02:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_BC
Actually I'm not sure that's drawn right on the Baja Almanac map. I started in the main Salsipuedes drainage, but the road follows it further, all the way up to near its headwaters on that map. You will see a ranch at 29,16'33'' 114,2'53''. That is in the drainage. I turned off the road way before that, at 29,15'37'' 114,1'17''. From there the wash leaves the route of the road and heads east-northeast. I rode that to the beginnings of the actual canyon, at 29,15'43'' 114,1'6'' where I camped the first night in the canyon. From there I followed the main Salsipuedes drainage down, but it's in the canyon from then on.

It was that evening that Jimmy the local rancher followed my tracks into the canyon and said hi. I was a bit startled and we spoke for a few minutes. He said there are paintings on the other side (north west side?) of the big granite monument directly to the northwest of that spot. I didn't think it was safe to go up alone. He said he was from a few kilometers up the road, and I asked if it was Asamblea and he said yes. He was friendly. In hindsight I wish I had asked him if there was water there year round but I wasn't really prepared to just see him like that. I don't think he knows much about the canyon downstream of his cattle because he said it should take two days to ride to the ocean! So I guess he's never been down to the pools as far as I went. Interestingly down in that last section of wash before the pools, at the side of the channel, there is a bunch of black ABS pipe that they use for moving water around. So someone has been there and tried to set up some kind of a water system.

Before the road goes to his ranch there is a Y which goes right off into Asamblea, down the wash a ways. I don't have the bandwidth right now to look into the details of that but I remember looking before I came down and it looked pretty rocky most of the way. My concern would be, and was, if you go a long ways down the canyon, like more than halfway in terms of time, and you've committed yourself to get to the ocean to find water, but you come across some impassable obstacle, then what do you do. That is what Asamblea kind of looks like to me, it looks rough almost all the way down to the junction with Salsipuedes. On the other hand Salsipuedes looks pretty easy once you get through the upper canyon. From the confluence at 29,16'46'' 113,58'21'' it looks clear sailing all the way to the ocean except for that jumble of rocks 400 m to the north which looks passable. That's why I would like to look into entering using that confluence at the coordinates in the previous sentence, and instead try from the wash that enters from the south-east. That terrain is not the blocky granite boulders, it is your typical desert terrain. It doesn't look too bad. I'd enter from Laguna Seca through the pass at 29,14'52'' 113,56'27'' which is actually lower in elevation than where I entered Salsipuedes canyon! But it should be scouted out on foot first, a nice little overnight trip, if you can get a vehicle and drive up there.

Those granite boulder areas are really deceptive in Google Earth. Some sections that were totally indecipherable from GE were a breeze and others that didn't look too bad were difficult or impassable. Because the rocks are vertical!

Yeah it's amazing what they did, considering all the technology and Google Earth we have now.

I got all the pics and video onto my computer. The pics are OK but there's some really great video.


I think the Almanac shows Salsipuedes a bit off and the main route to the north, so I drew Mark's track in relationship to the Almanac's placement of the Salsipuedes wash. In fact, Mark's Salsipuedes looks like the main one... Here are some satellite images with Mark's posted GPS waypoints and a couple of his Spot points (M pin):








Santiago - 1-1-2014 at 09:37 AM

Rookie question: Why is Salsipuedes 'better' than La Asamblea?

Barry A. - 1-1-2014 at 10:54 AM

Excellent GE photos and depiction of sites, David. The mystery goes on, and you and other's make some excellent observations and learned-suppositions which only tends to increase my curiosity about that area.

We need that Hillar helecoptor that ESG had at his disposal way back when, and a few ROKONS.

Barry

larryC - 1-1-2014 at 11:12 AM

A rokon would be an excellent bike to go up there on. You need something that you can throw into an aluminum boat and launch at Candeleros and motor up to the La Asamblea rock beach and off load the bike there and head up the canyon. Or hire a panga in Bahia and have them drop you off and arrange for a pick up a few days later. My quads are just too big and heavy for that scenario but a rokon or fat tire bike of any type would be great for that. One of these days I'm going to go back up there and do some more exploring.
Larry

Mark_BC - 1-1-2014 at 11:13 AM

OK so the plan now is to go check out the other entry point I was talking about from the east, from Laguna Seca. I'm going to take the rental car up there tomorrow for a night or two and hike in. It's only about 5-8 km of hiking (one way) after 5 km of bike riding across the wash. What I want to check out is if the terrain allows certain sections of difficult wash to be bypassed, i.e. is it like most of the washes you see down here with reasonably sloped sidehills. It looks like it from GE. The difficulty with the upper canyon where I just went is that there is no bypass around impasses when the canyon walls are vertical boulders!

It will involve a 200 m elevation gain and then back down the other side but that's pretty easy if the terrain isn't too rough. I'll do the Spot checks like before. I'm a little worried about leaving the car exposed for a few days, what about looters? I'll try to hide it behind a hill somewhere, and I'll stash 10 litres of water somewhere no one will find in case the car gets trashed and I have to ride out.

Then if I give it an "OK" I'll start thinking about the next attempt with bikes! Next time with other people.

larryC - 1-1-2014 at 11:14 AM

Jim
Not sure salsipuedes is better. Once you are in there you can't tell one canyon from the next. They all branch off and it is easy to get turned around.



Quote:
Originally posted by Santiago
Rookie question: Why is Salsipuedes 'better' than La Asamblea?

larryC - 1-1-2014 at 11:19 AM

Mark
I'll try to post a ge shot of where ESGardener set up his camp and went over the hill and out onto the botica dry lake. There is also another place to try that I will mark on the map also. I might need DKs help.
Larry

DEVEAU - 1-1-2014 at 11:33 AM

Having had the pleasure to ride many of the Bill Nicols/Jimmy Sones trails it is interesting how they are always working on getting up on the ridges. Elevation is your friend. Can always burn some to get through a tough section.

Mark_BC - 1-1-2014 at 05:17 PM

Do you think it's safe to leave the rental car up those salt lakes for a few days? I have a feeling I won't be able to drive to the second one due to sand and I'll just have to leave the car there and ride the remaining distance.

DosMars - 1-1-2014 at 08:37 PM

Hey Mark, Zoe told me to say 'hi' to tocayo!

I'd leave the car unlocked with a note in Spanish that you're over the ridge, everything's alright and you'll be back in a bit. More than likely it'll be fine while you're gone (it sure seemed remote when we were up there in the spring...!).

Have fun and be careful! See you in a week...

-Mark...

woody with a view - 1-1-2014 at 08:41 PM

^^^yep, just go for it!^^^

Neal Johns - 1-1-2014 at 09:10 PM

Don't for to air your tires down to 15-20 lbs.

Hook - 1-1-2014 at 09:48 PM

I'm highly surprised there isn't some retired gringo down there right now that might be willing to drive you out there and camp a few days while you explore, or drop you off and come back in two days. Should be a lot of people down there right now.

David K - 1-1-2014 at 11:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by larryC
Mark
I'll try to post a ge shot of where ESGardener set up his camp and went over the hill and out onto the botica dry lake. There is also another place to try that I will mark on the map also. I might need DKs help.
Larry


I am always happy to help when I can! If you have the GPS waypoints for anything you want a map showing, let me know Larry.

Mark_BC - 1-2-2014 at 07:34 AM

That's exactly what I was thinking Mark. And say that if they wreck the car I'll die out here... even though I could ride my bike back. I might try to find a way to disable it but I'm no mechanic so I don't want to do something I'll regret.

Hi Zoe! I want to spend a couple days in LA fixing up the bike and getting it ready for you (for some reason the rear shifters don't work, I may have to buy a new set), and give it a wash since there's still some salt from last trip.

larryC - 1-2-2014 at 10:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_BC
Do you think it's safe to leave the rental car up those salt lakes for a few days? I have a feeling I won't be able to drive to the second one due to sand and I'll just have to leave the car there and ride the remaining distance.


Hard to say mark if it is safe or not, not many people out there but there are a few ranchers out there. I would help but I am in San Diego right now and won't be back until the 10th of Jan. There are some pretty rough spots out there that could cause a low slung rental car some problems. Are you staying at Villa Bahia? If so maybe Roger will lend you his truck.
The lat lon for Gardeners camp site is: N 29 18' 18.25 and W 113 52' 02.95 as near as I can tell on GE
You have probably already headed out on todays adventure but good luck.
Larry

David K - 1-2-2014 at 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by larryC
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_BC
Do you think it's safe to leave the rental car up those salt lakes for a few days? I have a feeling I won't be able to drive to the second one due to sand and I'll just have to leave the car there and ride the remaining distance.


Hard to say mark if it is safe or not, not many people out there but there are a few ranchers out there. I would help but I am in San Diego right now and won't be back until the 10th of Jan. There are some pretty rough spots out there that could cause a low slung rental car some problems. Are you staying at Villa Bahia? If so maybe Roger will lend you his truck.
The lat lon for Gardeners camp site is: N 29 18' 18.25 and W 113 52' 02.95 as near as I can tell on GE
You have probably already headed out on todays adventure but good luck.
Larry








Erle Stanley Gardner's Camp (per Larry) is about 1 mile NW from the road to Punta Candelero on the coast (uses Arroyo los Candeleros)... right where the road wraps around the NW corner of the mesa.

David K - 1-2-2014 at 04:09 PM

Larry, would you confirm that the GPS you posted (and the location on the GE images above) are correct for Uncle Erle's 1960's base camp? Thank you!

Edit: Just checked, and no new Spot from Mark since he returned to Villa Bahia two days ago...

http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=...

[Edited on 1-2-2014 by David K]

Neal Johns - 1-3-2014 at 07:09 AM

Well he is on his way again. He camped yesterday (Jan. 2) about 0.1 miles south of the left fork in the Y in the road that takes him toward Botica Dry Lake.

ScreenShot.jpg151 [640x480].jpg - 40kB

DosMars - 1-3-2014 at 09:26 AM

Looks like the rental handled the soft spots well enough.

Mark and I were able to make arrangements to pick him up at the TJ airport rental return area on Thursday. That gives him a week to play with down there. Probably not enough time to do the main canyon, especially with the prospect of winds hanging him up at the canyon mouth.

I'm guessing he'll spend a couple of days scouting out a rout into one of the tributaries, then ride down that sandy canyon he's parked at so he can test out the rig in the sand wash as well as his desalination methods and kayak. He's been getting some great go pro footage and I'm sure he'll want to record some shots of him traversing the sandy washs on the bike with trailer. That way he'll be confident all of all of his methods to explore the main canyon system for next time.

Not a bad way to fill out a few weeks in Baja...!

-Mark...

larryC - 1-3-2014 at 09:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Larry, would you confirm that the GPS you posted (and the location on the GE images above) are correct for Uncle Erle's 1960's base camp? Thank you!

Edit: Just checked, and no new Spot from Mark since he returned to Villa Bahia two days ago...

http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=...

[Edited on 1-2-2014 by David K]


David
Yes, that is the place, mas o' menos. Herman and I went out there about 10 years ago. He was kind enough to help me in trying to find a way into the canyon overland. He showed me about where they camped and then showed me what he called a trail up and over the hill towards Botica dry lake. You have to take a lot of what Herman said with a grain of salt, but on that day he seemed pretty straight forward. We had a good time. He had lots of stories. Some true and others suspect. I never found what I consider an easy way in there. You can walk in or even take animals in there but you have to bring so much water for an expedition like that, that it gets to be too much real quick. it is a very unforgiving place until you get into the canyon itself. In the canyon itself there was lots of water and shade from palm trees so pretty pleasant.

David K - 1-3-2014 at 10:45 AM

Thank you Larry! Herman was quite the character... I wish he would have shared just a tad more in his book... or with people he took out into the desert! :light:

David K - 1-3-2014 at 10:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal Johns
Well he is on his way again. He camped yesterday (Jan. 2) about 0.1 miles south of the left fork in the Y in the road that takes him toward Botica Dry Lake.


Here is the image off the Spot page... and you can see where he was yesterday and perhaps this morning (#8) and where he was in Salsipuedes a few days ago, to the west. La Botica dry lake is at the top center, and just west of it is Salsipuedes Canyon. Mark is next to Laguna Seca dry lake, on the road that goes to Los Candeleros Canyon and out to the coast by Punta Candelero.


motoged - 1-3-2014 at 10:59 AM

Mark,
Car rental insurance most likely does not cover the car for "outback" situations....read the fine print....the closest rental agency is likely either Ensenada or Loreto.

I respect your perseverance... buena suerte paisano.

DosMars - 1-3-2014 at 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by motoged
Mark,
Car rental insurance most likely does not cover the car for "outback" situations....read the fine print....the closest rental agency is likely either Ensenada or Loreto.

I respect your perseverance... buena suerte paisano.


Sounds like a good car wash is in order before the drop off...

Heading West! Friday 10:13 AM

David K - 1-3-2014 at 12:46 PM



Former Spot #8 is now #6, and his newest location is #7, at a small hill.

Your Local Time:
1/3/2014 10:13:00 AM
Coordinates: (WGS84)
29.26672 , -113.87129
Message Detail:
SPOT Check OK.

DosMars - 1-3-2014 at 01:49 PM

Just sent another spot signal. He's continuing on to the hills on the other side of the playa...

Neal Johns - 1-3-2014 at 03:12 PM

Yeah, He is hiking now (1:16). His location does not make sense to me.

Latitude: 29.25542, Longitude: -113.92949

Mark is Spotting his route!

David K - 1-3-2014 at 03:16 PM

3 today so far!

http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=...

#8 on the image below:
Your Local Time:
1/3/2014 12:03:51 PM
Coordinates: (WGS84)
29.26499 , -113.90912
Message Detail:
SPOT Check OK.

#9:
Your Local Time:
1/3/2014 1:16:27 PM
Coordinates: (WGS84)
29.25542 , -113.92949
Message Detail:
SPOT Check OK.

Here is the image showing the progress across the playa (dry lake valley 'Laguna Seca':



Here is the relationship of where he is today to where he was last week in Salsipuedes:



Here is a close up showing how he has run out of flat terrain and has an uphill challenge to get over to the Salsipuedes drainage:


1-3-14 on Map

David K - 1-3-2014 at 03:34 PM

To give an idea of the approx. location of Mark, on the Almanac map:





The distance from #6 to #9 is about 10km. (6 miles).

Spot numbers as shown in previous sat images used on map, keep in mind they will change on Spot's map as time progresses.



[Edited on 1-3-2014 by David K]

Barry A. - 1-3-2014 at 03:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal Johns
Yeah, He is hiking now (1:16). His location does not make sense to me.

Latitude: 29.25542, Longitude: -113.92949


Nor to me. If he wants to access La Botica Dry Lake he needs to be heading in a more northerly direction it seems to me. It's possible that he will locate a wash running NE that leads back into Botica Dry Lake, but it is a round-a-bout way to get there, I am thinking, and not near where ESG and company were camped as I understand it.

I don't know-------------?

barry

On edit-------perhaps he simply wants to access a side canyon that may join Salsipuedes further down canyon that he achieved several days ago?!?!?!? and really is not ready, or even wanting to, access La Botica dry lake since he knows that is a dead end for his bike due to the dry waterfall in La Botica Canyon. (I understand he is hiking, not biking, this time).

[Edited on 1-3-2014 by Barry A.]

David K - 1-3-2014 at 03:43 PM

He is not going to La Botica per his Spot... he is heading right towards where he was before, but if he gets over the saddle between Cerro Salsipuedes and Cerro Colorado he will have another, closer arroyo to follow to get into the main Salsipuedes wash.

Barry A. - 1-3-2014 at 03:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
He is not going to La Botica per his Spot... he is heading right towards where he was before, but if he gets over the saddle between Cerro Salsipuedes and Cerro Colorado he will have another, closer arroyo to follow to get into the main Salsipuedes wash.


Yep------bingo!!!

Barry

David K - 1-3-2014 at 03:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
He is not going to La Botica per his Spot... he is heading right towards where he was before, but if he gets over the saddle between Cerro Salsipuedes and Cerro Colorado he will have another, closer arroyo to follow to get into the main Salsipuedes wash.


Yep------bingo!!!

Barry


He may be going in circles... but he is in the heart of Baja doing it! Erle Stanley Gardner and Choral Pepper would be very proud of him for having a desert adventure like this!


Neal Johns - 1-3-2014 at 04:06 PM

Yep, but he has about an 1,800 elevation hump to climb before he gets to the north heading arroyo. Not a good route in my opinion. On GE the north arroyo looks rough, hope he is just hiking for a look-see.

Neal Johns - 1-3-2014 at 04:10 PM

RE Circles, if he goes this way, he only bypasses about a mile and a half of the canyon where he was before. I think he should check the way Earle went.

Barry A. - 1-3-2014 at 04:16 PM

Well, it's fun to second-guess from the peanut gallery (which of course I am doing) but the truth is, at least for me, I am suffering from incredible ENVY------------I sure like the spirit of adventure this guy is displaying, and wish him every success as long as he is willing to share it with us. :yes: :lol:

Just being "out there" doing what he is doing is an inspiration to me, no matter his successes or failures-------------it's ALL GOOD!!!!!

Barry

Neal Johns - 1-3-2014 at 04:23 PM

Barry, I wish I was 70 years younger, I'm be with him. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Barry A. - 1-3-2014 at 04:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal Johns
Barry, I wish I was 70 years younger, I'm be with him. :lol::lol::lol::lol:


Yep-----I would settle for just 20 years younger--------I was just looking at ROKON ad's on the net and was drooling on my keyboard!!! But even a ROKON may not be able to get in to THIS country, from the top. :light:

I have always wondered why the ESG crowd, and others on quads, have not/did not go up Salsipuedes as far as they could just to see what's possible? Same with Asamblea. It's been eating at me ever since I read HOVERING OVER BAJA and was never clear to me how far they actually went. What incredibly wild and beautiful country!

(sigh)

Barry

Neal Johns - 1-3-2014 at 04:45 PM

I checked out Bill B's Rokon a few years ago and laid it down to see if I could get it up again (200 lb dry). Nope.:lol::lol::lol:

David K - 1-3-2014 at 06:14 PM

Well, no new Spot signals since 1:16pm (#9)... Yes, this is great armchair adventure for us old guys at home... but what I would give to be there with Mark or on any Baja adventure! Melchior Diaz is calling me! LOL

Barry A. - 1-3-2014 at 06:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal Johns
I checked out Bill B's Rokon a few years ago and laid it down to see if I could get it up again (200 lb dry). Nope.:lol::lol::lol:


The new one's weigh in at 218 lbs dry!!! a leg bone-crusher if one lost control. Ouch!!!

Barry

David K - 1-3-2014 at 06:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Neal Johns
I checked out Bill B's Rokon a few years ago and laid it down to see if I could get it up again (200 lb dry). Nope.:lol::lol::lol:


The new one's weigh in at 218 lbs dry!!! a leg bone-crusher if one lost control. Ouch!!!

Barry


Way cool... http://Rokon.com


DosMars - 1-4-2014 at 09:02 AM

Looks like Mark's getting an early start making his way over that saddle...

7:32 am Jan. 4, 2014

David K - 1-4-2014 at 10:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DosMars
Looks like Mark's getting an early start making his way over that saddle...


Great news... he does seem to be at the top of the divide and about to enter the Salsipuedes watershed.


#9 was yesterday, #10 this morning.

http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=...

Your Local Time:
1/4/2014 7:32:10 AM
Coordinates: (WGS84)
29.2491 , -113.94131
Message Detail:
SPOT Check OK.

larryC - 1-4-2014 at 11:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Neal Johns
Barry, I wish I was 70 years younger, I'm be with him. :lol::lol::lol::lol:


Yep-----I would settle for just 20 years younger--------I was just looking at ROKON ad's on the net and was drooling on my keyboard!!! But even a ROKON may not be able to get in to THIS country, from the top. :light:

I have always wondered why the ESG crowd, and others on quads, have not/did not go up Salsipuedes as far as they could just to see what's possible? Same with Asamblea. It's been eating at me ever since I read HOVERING OVER BAJA and was never clear to me how far they actually went. What incredibly wild and beautiful country!

(sigh)

Barry


I was hoping that he would try that saddle. Once he hits that Salsipuedes finger he will be able to go all the way. I just imagine that saddle is pretty rugged. The guys on the 2010 trip made it from the beach all the way up to Botica dry lake on quads. I don't think they tried that saddle.

Barry
We did go as far as we could go with what we had back in '04. The second trip in 2010 they made it much farther and were much better prepared. You are right about the beautiful country, the pink ash hills are spectacular. Nothing like I have ever seen in my life. There are some pink ash hills in the Candeleros canyon just down the wash towards the water from where mark is now. Much smaller scale but beautiful.

Barry A. - 1-4-2014 at 11:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by larryC
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Neal Johns
Barry, I wish I was 70 years younger, I'm be with him. :lol::lol::lol::lol:


Yep-----I would settle for just 20 years younger--------I was just looking at ROKON ad's on the net and was drooling on my keyboard!!! But even a ROKON may not be able to get in to THIS country, from the top. :light:

I have always wondered why the ESG crowd, and others on quads, have not/did not go up Salsipuedes as far as they could just to see what's possible? Same with Asamblea. It's been eating at me ever since I read HOVERING OVER BAJA and was never clear to me how far they actually went. What incredibly wild and beautiful country!

(sigh)

Barry


I was hoping that he would try that saddle. Once he hits that Salsipuedes finger he will be able to go all the way. I just imagine that saddle is pretty rugged. The guys on the 2010 trip made it from the beach all the way up to Botica dry lake on quads. I don't think they tried that saddle.

Barry
We did go as far as we could go with what we had back in '04. The second trip in 2010 they made it much farther and were much better prepared. You are right about the beautiful country, the pink ash hills are spectacular. Nothing like I have ever seen in my life. There are some pink ash hills in the Candeleros canyon just down the wash towards the water from where mark is now. Much smaller scale but beautiful.


Wow, they made it alll the way to Botica Dry lake???? but did NOT get there via Botica Canyon where the 40 foot dry water fall is??? I missed (or forgot?) that, and wonder just HOW they did it??? Perhaps by the same canyon that Mark appears to be entering now, but further down for the cross-over from the canyon to Botica dry lake!?!?!? Now we are getting somewhere. If one can get a wheeled vehicle into this canyon that Mark is entering, then that would appear to solve the access problems that EVERYBODY has been trying to solve forever!!!

This is GREAT!!!!

Barry

DosMars - 1-4-2014 at 04:52 PM

Looks like he's back at the car. Wonder if he's going back to BoLA or headed down to the beach...

Hook - 1-4-2014 at 04:54 PM

OK, then it's Rokons and one of these: Who's in?



Barry A. - 1-4-2014 at 05:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
OK, then it's Rokons and one of these: Who's in?




You provide the equipment & supplies, and I will drive them. :light:

Barry

Neal Johns - 1-4-2014 at 05:42 PM

I will be happy to ride on the back of a Rokon and hold down the wheel for traction while someone pushes.:lol::lol::lol:

Yep, he is back at the Y and who knows what is next.

Speaking of choppers and sightseeing the wild places, Barry, it has been done in recent years.... but I am sworn to secrecy for obvious reasons (no, I was not involved). Now that would be the way to see Baja. Forget mules, zoom the ECR at 100 feet....See the hills and dales from 5,000 feet....

Barry A. - 1-4-2014 at 06:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Neal Johns
I will be happy to ride on the back of a Rokon and hold down the wheel for traction while someone pushes.:lol::lol::lol:

Yep, he is back at the Y and who knows what is next.

Speaking of choppers and sightseeing the wild places, Barry, it has been done in recent years.... but I am sworn to secrecy for obvious reasons (no, I was not involved). Now that would be the way to see Baja. Forget mules, zoom the ECR at 100 feet....See the hills and dales from 5,000 feet....


E-gads, flying provides way TMI------WAY to much information!!!!!

Ignoring the spurious claim of "it has been done recently"----- as a pilot of old I found that zipping over terraign in a airborne vehicle is NO WAY to feel and experience the allure and adventure of exploring "new country". You simply cannot assimilate all that you see at those speeds, and with the scope and format being so huge, most become totally confused and frustrated thereby useless as sources of any comprehensive information. New places MUST be seen from the ground where one can dally over vistas and treasures and glades, and truly absorb the significance of what is seen.

Anyone that would venture into, or have intimate knowledge of, these sacred grounds and keep such adventures and knowledge to themselves is EVIL-----EVIL, I say. (shades of the surfers)

Wonder why Mark reversed course so soon??? Perhaps he accomplished what he wanted to, or encountered vibes that repelled him?? Hopefully we will soon know.

Barry

David K - 1-4-2014 at 06:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DosMars
Looks like he's back at the car. Wonder if he's going back to BoLA or headed down to the beach...


So he got to the saddle, sent a Spot about 7:32am today, then went the ~7 miles back to the road by 11:13 am today.

This is good in that he didn't get too far in without knowing if he could get back out. I am sure he is making plans for NEXT TIME! Hopefully the rental car is fine and he gets back to the highway okay.

Hook - 1-4-2014 at 07:15 PM

How far is the drive back out to BOLA from his car's location? Should have been plenty of daylight to get back, right? Shouldn't we have heard from him by now?

Neal Johns - 1-4-2014 at 07:31 PM

Hook, from his last Spot at the Y in the road, the road is pretty good to the highway, so I am not worried about him. I suspect he camped there and will check out a different route tomorrow.
Neal

Hook - 1-4-2014 at 07:36 PM

OK, looks like he has till Thursday to be back in TJ. I thought it was sooner. Plenty of time to try another route.

I guess if there was a problem with the car, he would have sent out a distress signal by now.

David K - 1-4-2014 at 07:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
How far is the drive back out to BOLA from his car's location? Should have been plenty of daylight to get back, right? Shouldn't we have heard from him by now?


From about where his car is (or his Spot location on the Punta Candelero road) back to the L.A. Bay highway is just under or close to 22 miles*. From that junction at the highway back to Bahia de los Angeles is 16.8 miles.

* I took a mileage note where the road turned sharply from north to east past the mesa along the Laguna Seca dry lake. That point was 22.7 miles from the highway. That position on to the coast was 10.4 miles. Mark's Spot is just south of that curve.




[Edited on 1-5-2014 by David K]

Neal Johns - 1-5-2014 at 08:05 AM

A Spot signal a half hour ago said "OK" from the same place as yesterday (the Y).

chuckie - 1-5-2014 at 08:27 AM

Quick word on ROKON's..We were, for a short time a ROKON dealer. They were rugged machines and would go most anywhere, BUT, with the front wheel driving often decided on their own where it was they wanted to go...I took one elk hunting, lotsa snow and mud, wore me out...I am really enjoying this thread.....

Santiago - 1-5-2014 at 08:51 AM

LarryC and others who have been from the beach: would a Honda Trail 90 work? Tires too skinny?
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