BajaNomad - here comes EL NINO!!!!

here comes EL NINO!!!!

woody with a view - 4-16-2014 at 12:06 PM

All the above data suggests this evolving 2014 event is of equal strength to the 1997 event, if not stronger (as of the end of March 2014). The fact that the 2014 event started a month earlier might bias the analysis towards making it look stronger, if only in that it had more time to evolve. But the fact that it started a month earlier in and of itself could also suggest there was more latent heat energy built up in the ocean compared to the 1997 event. Note that El Nino is just a means for the ocean to vent off excess heat, serving much the same purpose as a hurricane relative towards venting off excess lower atmospheric heat. Also consider the continuous string of typhoons in the West Pacific (Philippines) during the Northern Hemisphere Summer of 2013, culminating in Super Typhoon Haiyan in early November 2013, a month after the first Kelvin Wave of the 2014 ENSO event developed and was tracking east under the equator toward Ecuador. Of note: Haiyan is the 4th strongest typhoon on record anywhere in the world, with the 3 above it all occurring in the '58-61 time frame. Conversely there is building evidence that suggest that wind speeds measured during typhoons from the '40s to the '60s (all in the West Pacific) were biased on the high side, potentially pushing Hiayan further up the all time ranking. Regardless, there is ample evidence to suggest a large warm pool was present in the West Pacific Ocean and was affecting the atmosphere above it. That oceanic warm pool heated the atmosphere above enough to suppress trades, if not cause an outright reversal of trades, generating a string of 4 WWBs, which ultimately resulted in the Kelvin Waves we are now tracking. Also consider that the '97 El Nino was the strongest on record (surpassing the '82/83 event) all causing significant global weather impacts to food production, transportation and human well being. and there is some evidence to suggest the earlier an El Nino forms, the stronger it will eventually be, all correlated to the same rationale above. At this time the evidence suggests a significant ENSO event is possible.

But, there is not one shred of evidence to suggest abnormal warming of surface waters off Ecuador is occurring. That is the trademark of El Nino. It is the warming of surface waters on the equator between 120W and 170W (commonly referred to as Nino 3.4) +0.5 deg C above normal for 3 or more consecutive months (exact parameters vary) that delineate the start of El Nino. And it takes another 3 months after that warm surface water manifests to start transferring energy into the atmosphere, enough so that the jet stream starts to increase velocity and change configuration affecting the track and strength of gales and storms below it, primarily focused on the North Pacific. One would not expect to see evidence of that until no earlier than late July 2014. And until that occurs, that is, the atmosphere is positively affected, this remains a 'potential' event. That said, this is a 'possible' event worth monitoring.

For real time monitoring of this situation (updates posted approx 3 times per week), visit our Pacific Ocean Surf Forecast Page (see ENSO subsection half way down the page) or for more advanced users monitor with the ENSO Powertool.

read more here: http://www.stormsurf.com/page2/enso/2014/comparison.shtml

Mexitron - 4-16-2014 at 12:11 PM

Now that sounds like fun!

mtgoat666 - 4-16-2014 at 12:30 PM

Some of you partisans and tinfoil hat types don't believe government scientists, but for you that have an open mind, check out the periodic NWS updates on ENSO prediction...

--------------------------------------------

EL NIÑO/SOUTHERN OSCILLATION (ENSO) DIAGNOSTIC DISCUSSION
issued by
CLIMATE PREDICTION CENTER/NCEP and the International Research Institute for Climate and Society
10 April 2014

ENSO Alert System Status: El Niño Watch

Synopsis: While ENSO-neutral is favored for Northern Hemisphere spring, the chances of El Niño increase during the remainder of the year, exceeding 50% by summer.

ENSO-neutral continued during March 2014, but with above-average sea surface temperatures (SST) developing over much of the eastern tropical Pacific as well as near the International Date Line (Fig. 1). The weekly SSTs were below average in the Niño1+2 region, near average but rising in Niño3 and Niño3.4 regions, and above average in the Niño4 region (Fig. 2). A significant downwelling oceanic Kelvin wave that was initiated in January greatly increased the oceanic heat content to the largest March value in the historical record back to 1979 (Fig. 3) and produced large positive subsurface temperature anomalies across the central and eastern Pacific (Fig. 4). Also during March, low-level westerly wind anomalies were observed over the central equatorial Pacific. Convection was suppressed over western Indonesia, and enhanced over the central equatorial Pacific (Fig. 5). Although these atmospheric and oceanic conditions collectively reflect ENSO-neutral, they also reflect a clear evolution toward an El Niño state.

The model predictions of ENSO for this summer and beyond are indicating an increased likelihood of El Niño this year compared with last month. Most of the models indicate that ENSO-neutral (Niño-3.4 index between -0.5oC and 0.5oC) will persist through much of the remainder of the Northern Hemisphere spring 2014 (Fig. 6), with many models predicting the development of El Niño sometime during the summer or fall. Despite this greater model consensus, there remains considerable uncertainty as to when El Niño will develop and how strong it may become. This uncertainty is amplified by the inherently lower forecast skill of the models for forecasts made in the spring. While ENSO-neutral is favored for Northern Hemisphere spring, the chances of El Niño increase during the remainder of the year, and exceed 50% by the summer (click CPC/IRI consensus forecast for the chance of each outcome).

This discussion is a consolidated effort of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), NOAA's National Weather Service, and their funded institutions. Oceanic and atmospheric conditions are updated weekly on the Climate Prediction Center web site (El Niño/La Niña Current Conditions and Expert Discussions). Forecasts for the evolution of El Niño/La Niña are updated monthly in the Forecast Forum section of CPC's Climate Diagnostics Bulletin. The next ENSO Diagnostics Discussion is scheduled for 8 May 2014. To receive an e-mail notification when the monthly ENSO Diagnostic Discussions are released, please send an e-mail message to: ncep.list.enso-update@noaa.gov.

Climate Prediction Center
National Centers for Environmental Prediction
NOAA/National Weather Service
College Park, MD 20740

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/en...

David K - 4-16-2014 at 12:39 PM

An El Niño in our future? It's all really up to God, isn't it?

'El Niño' gets its name because of when it happens, the celebrated time of the birth of Jesus, El Niño de Dios.

[Edited on 4-16-2014 by David K]

bajalearner - 4-16-2014 at 12:41 PM

The weather images resemble my brain scan while trying to comprehend the data.

Martyman - 4-16-2014 at 01:15 PM

Mt Goat-Tell me more about the tinfoil hat types???

woody with a view - 4-16-2014 at 01:24 PM

hey goat, you can't have mine!!!! :lol:

Taco de Baja - 4-16-2014 at 01:59 PM

1997 was really nice, but I've really lost faith in these pointy headed science types trying to predict the global temperature 100 years in the future, El Niño a couple months in the future, or even the weather next week. We've heard this El Niño forecast before and it always fizzles and the water remains cool or average.

I’ll stick to my trusty "AccuWeatherRite Tin-foil Hat". It's never wrong:

If the tin-foil hat is wet, it's raining.
If the tin-foil hat is swinging, the wind is blowing.
If the tin-foil hat casts a shadow, the sun is shining.
If the tin-foil hat does not cast a shadow and is not wet, the sky is cloudy.
If the tin-foil hat is not visible, it is foggy.
If the tin-foil hat is white, it is snowing.
If the tin-foil hat is coated with ice, there is a frost.
If the ice is thick, it's a heavy frost.
If the tin-foil hat is bouncing, there is an earthquake.
If the tin-foil hat is under water, there is a flood.
If the tin-foil hat is warm, it is sunny.
If the tin-foil hat is missing, there was a tornado.
If the tin-foil hat is wet and swinging violently, there is a hurricane.
If the tin-foil hat has white splats on it, watch out for birds.

:lol:

bajagrouper - 4-16-2014 at 02:01 PM

What does it really matter, can't do anything about it............although my beach house is for sale, LOL

sancho - 4-16-2014 at 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
Some of you partisans and tinfoil hat types don't believe government scientists

It is well documented who the Pres of that group of
BN's is, never did get the anti-science lean, seems it
is accompained by other irrational beliefs, lots of data
available now, used to be it's a warm water yr/ cold
water yr., I do remember an '80's warm water summer
saw a Frigate Bird over Dana Point, Ca

woody with a view - 4-16-2014 at 04:18 PM

when the red pelagic crabs return to Sandy Eggo you'll know it's warm!!!!!

chippy - 4-16-2014 at 04:31 PM

when you are catching big albacore 15 miles outa HMB you know its an EL NIÑo.

chippy - 4-16-2014 at 04:35 PM

when you are surfing Pacifica in a spring suit you know its an el NIÑo.

mtgoat666 - 4-16-2014 at 05:24 PM

when the meteorologists says so it is el nino :lol:

all hail the climate scientists!

[Edited on 4-17-2014 by mtgoat666]

willardguy - 4-16-2014 at 05:27 PM

when you're catchin salmon off your surfboard at the ventura rivermouths.....

CortezBlue - 4-16-2014 at 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
Some of you partisans and tinfoil hat types don't believe government scientists, but for you that have an open mind............

Hey chicken little

You are a prime candidate for these current times

Do yourself a favor and don't take anyone's word for anything, but instead use your own brain to do some research.

The first place to look is Al Gore
Look at his wealth curve that happens to track with his rampage on global warming

Bottom line , always, follow the dollar and you will find your answers

You 666 boy

EL NIÑO/SOUTHERN OSCILLATION (ENSO) DIAGNOSTIC DISCUSSION
issued by
CLIMATE PREDICTION CENTER/NCEP and the International Research Institute for Climate and Society
10 April 2014

ENSO Alert System Status: El Niño Watch

Synopsis: While ENSO-neutral is favored for Northern Hemisphere spring, the chances of El Niño increase during the remainder of the year, exceeding 50% by summer.

ENSO-neutral continued during March 2014, but with above-average sea surface temperatures (SST) developing over much of the eastern tropical Pacific as well as near the International Date Line (Fig. 1). The weekly SSTs were below average in the Niño1+2 region, near average but rising in Niño3 and Niño3.4 regions, and above average in the Niño4 region (Fig. 2). A significant downwelling oceanic Kelvin wave that was initiated in January greatly increased the oceanic heat content to the largest March value in the historical record back to 1979 (Fig. 3) and produced large positive subsurface temperature anomalies across the central and eastern Pacific (Fig. 4). Also during March, low-level westerly wind anomalies were observed over the central equatorial Pacific. Convection was suppressed over western Indonesia, and enhanced over the central equatorial Pacific (Fig. 5). Although these atmospheric and oceanic conditions collectively reflect ENSO-neutral, they also reflect a clear evolution toward an El Niño state.

The model predictions of ENSO for this summer and beyond are indicating an increased likelihood of El Niño this year compared with last month. Most of the models indicate that ENSO-neutral (Niño-3.4 index between -0.5oC and 0.5oC) will persist through much of the remainder of the Northern Hemisphere spring 2014 (Fig. 6), with many models predicting the development of El Niño sometime during the summer or fall. Despite this greater model consensus, there remains considerable uncertainty as to when El Niño will develop and how strong it may become. This uncertainty is amplified by the inherently lower forecast skill of the models for forecasts made in the spring. While ENSO-neutral is favored for Northern Hemisphere spring, the chances of El Niño increase during the remainder of the year, and exceed 50% by the summer (click CPC/IRI consensus forecast for the chance of each outcome).

This discussion is a consolidated effort of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), NOAA's National Weather Service, and their funded institutions. Oceanic and atmospheric conditions are updated weekly on the Climate Prediction Center web site (El Niño/La Niña Current Conditions and Expert Discussions). Forecasts for the evolution of El Niño/La Niña are updated monthly in the Forecast Forum section of CPC's Climate Diagnostics Bulletin. The next ENSO Diagnostics Discussion is scheduled for 8 May 2014. To receive an e-mail notification when the monthly ENSO Diagnostic Discussions are released, please send an e-mail message to: ncep.list.enso-update@noaa.gov.

Climate Prediction Center
National Centers for Environmental Prediction
NOAA/National Weather Service
College Park, MD 20740

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/en...

mtgoat666 - 4-16-2014 at 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CortezBlue
Hey chicken little

You are a prime candidate for these current times

Do yourself a favor and don't take anyone's word for anything, but instead use your own brain to do some research.

The first place to look is Al Gore
Look at his wealth curve that happens to track with his rampage on global warming

Bottom line , always, follow the dollar and you will find your answers

You 666 boy

i thought you conservatives did not criticize people for financial success?

so messages are only true if spewed from the mouths of the poor, eh.

ok, i can buy that.

El Nino?

neilm81301 - 4-16-2014 at 05:59 PM

All I wanna know is, does it break the drought?

Neil

wilderone - 4-16-2014 at 07:20 PM

"...does it break the drought?"
Yes, and then some. Jan. of 1997 storm sequences of snow/rain/warm temps tore through the Sierra Nevada, actually re-routing the Walker River. The flood that roared through there mowed down hundreds of pine trees hundreds of years old - the forest that grew alongside the river is simply gone in a 2-3 mile section. It dumped 12 ft. of snow on my roof at Lake Tahoe, breaking 4 rafters. It caused water to flow over levies in Sacramento River Delta, flooding downstream communities, ruining crops.

Winter of 2009/2010 (from BajaCactus)

David K - 4-17-2014 at 08:40 AM

Colonet:

El Rosario:

grizzlyfsh95 - 4-17-2014 at 09:19 AM

Tinfoil hats are so "last year". The most effective way to keep the space aliens from affecting your brain is to get a bunch of tatoos, nose and ear piercings (the more the better), and call everyone with whom you disagree, demeaning names.

[Edited on 4-17-2014 by grizzlyfsh95]

vgabndo - 4-17-2014 at 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
An El Niño in our future? It's all really up to God, isn't it?

'El Niño' gets its name because of when it happens, the celebrated time of the birth of Jesus, El Niño de Dios.

[Edited on 4-16-2014 by David K]

The name for this weather cycle came to us out of ignorance and superstition along coastal South America where Christians attributed the situation to their god. They were nearly 10,000 years behind the times however since the Hindu gods Indra and Varun (Varuna) were in charge of this sort of thing for thousands of years before before the invention of Christianity. Revisionist history?

Today, scientific proofs provide a much more reasonable explanation. Here is a good place to start replacing superstition with scientific evidence. http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/tao/elnino/1997.html

A god with four arms riding a white elephant with four tusks does provide for a more ENTERTAINING world view I'll have to admit.

grizzlyfsh95 - 4-17-2014 at 09:56 AM

They were nearly 10,000 years behind the times however since the Hindu gods Indra and Varun (Varuna) were in charge of this sort of thing for thousands of years before before the invention of Christianity. Revisionist history?

Yuuuup! :lol:

Bobvaso - 4-17-2014 at 11:43 AM

when i was living in New York, both El Nino and La Nina had an effect on our winter weather.

LaTijereta - 4-17-2014 at 11:48 AM

I am getting ready.. testing a new improved hat..

tin hat.jpg - 6kB

DavidE - 4-17-2014 at 12:11 PM

Just keep the gosh darnned category 5 hurricanes away, well away from Michoacan and the Baja California peninsula - that's all I ask...Might as well include fours and threes while I'm at it...

vgabndo - 4-17-2014 at 12:42 PM

David, there is an i-phone APP for that. Granted it comes from a country with an official state religion, but you may find the "truths" to be universal. :lol:

http://www.ucb.co.uk/extreme-weather-prayer-guide

[Edited on 4-17-2014 by vgabndo]

David K - 4-17-2014 at 04:22 PM

Perry and David being neighbors in Asuncion should easily create a storm with all their hot air... If I was closer, I would contribute too (adding my hot air, lol)!

DavidE - 4-17-2014 at 05:01 PM

What, hoping for no storms is now "hot air"?

Jesucristo, I realize now why California is undergoing a drought.

CortezBlue - 4-18-2014 at 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

i thought you conservatives did not criticize people for financial success?

so messages are only true if spewed from the mouths of the poor, eh.

ok, i can buy that.

Chicken Little

The only financial nagging I will do for Al Gore is his selling a TV channel to Al Qaeda.

Regardless of your political leanings, ALWAYS follow the dollar and you will find the root of any issue.

It's all a scam

vgabndo - 4-18-2014 at 07:53 AM

Interesting. The way I read it, Gore is almost as rich as Romney. Remind me when the Teapublicans were complaining about HIS earnings as a vulture capitalist. Gore owned 20% of a successful TV network, when his partners and he sold that business he made a lot of money for his share. The rest of his money came from the sale of stock he earned while on the board at Apple Corporation. Is this not the American WAY?? It seems to me he bought low and sold high. Indicting him for telling an inconvenient truth (which has now been borne-out by 97% of reputable climate scientists) is just ignorance. The fact that he lost a presidential election to a Republican Supreme Court which selected the 5th worst president in American history is a sad story our grandchildren MAY live long enough to tell around their campfires.

I take it, Mr. Dysfunction, that you are also offended by the number sequence in Goat's "handle". Right?

Sweetwater - 4-18-2014 at 10:49 AM

I am currently in PT for L2-3 microdiscectomy with a likely postop nerve entrapment so I'm bored......and this discussion just triggered my nerve nexus giving me pain that propelled my central neuron.....to this unlikely spot.........

Quote:

When the moon is in the seventh house And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets And love will steer the stars
This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius The age of Aquarius, Aquarius
Harmony and understanding Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions Mystic crystal revelation
And the minds true liberation Aquarius, Aquarius
When the moon is in the seventh house And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets And love will steer the stars
This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius The age of Aquarius, Aquarius, Aquarius Aquarius, Aquarius
Let the sunshine Let the sunshine in The sunshine in..... | MetroLyrics

But, maybe it's just the pain meds.......... :lol:

mtgoat666 - 4-18-2014 at 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CortezBlue
The only financial nagging I will do for Al Gore is his selling a TV channel to Al Qaeda.

Regardless of your political leanings, ALWAYS follow the dollar and you will find the root of any issue.

It's all a scam

ok, let's follow the dollars. the people that argue against global warming are motivated by money, because they are invested in systems or industries that belch green house gasses. for example, petrochem, drivers of oversized SUVs, etc. these people allege scientists are lieing, because they fear stopping their polluting ways will interupt their gravy train or materialistic ways.

yes, the client change deniers are waging a scam.

some people are rich and act in humanitarian or altruistic ways. people like the koch brothers are not included in the humanitarian or altruistic group!

sometimes money makes people act in good ways. sometimes money makes people act in bad ways. you should figure out their motivations before you listen to them

sancho - 4-18-2014 at 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
Indicting him for telling an inconvenient truth (which has now been borne-out by 97% of reputable climate scientists) is just ignorance. The fact that he lost a presidential election to a Republican Supreme Court which selected the 5th worst president in American history

Saw a guy from MIT speaking on climate change, and no,
for you GOP guys, MIT does not refer to Mitt Romney, he confirmed the number
above. My question is, who are the 4 that beat out GWB?
Ther can't be that many, impossible, he at least ties for
first

wessongroup - 4-18-2014 at 01:38 PM

The significance of this type of weather event has some positives and some negatives

Better understanding can only help to some degree ... pardon the pun

"They also found that El Niño events with no corresponding drop in OLR did not produce statistically significant anomalies in weather patterns. The dip in heat from deep convective clouds usually occurred before winter, so the timing of the signal could help forecasters improve winter seasonal outlooks, the scientists said.

“By sorting El Niño events into two categories, one with OLR changes and one without, forecasters may be able to produce winter seasonal outlooks with more confidence than previously thought possible,” Harrison said.

El Niño refers to a warming of waters along the equator in the Eastern Pacific Ocean. Through its influence on the atmosphere, El Niño shifts tropical rainfall patterns which causes further shifts in weather around the globe, including milder winters in western Canada and parts of the northern United States and wetter winters in the some southern states.

Industry sectors from energy and construction to transportation and tourism are keenly interested in how El Niño will affect their costs. El Niño-influenced weather can affect fuel oil demand, travel delays, and retail sales. Better accuracy in El Niño predictions could help industry to prepare for its impacts more efficiently.

NOAA’s mission is to understand and predict changes in the Earth's environment, from the depths of the ocean to the surface of the sun, and to conserve and manage our coastal and marine resources. Join us on Facebook, Twitter and our other social media channels at social media channels."

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2013/20130207_pmel_elnin...

Thanks Sweetwater ... can relate :biggrin:

[Edited on 4-18-2014 by wessongroup]

CortezBlue - 4-18-2014 at 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Chicken Little

In case you are having a difficult time comprehending what I am saying, "Follow the Money" crosses both sides of the isle.

Kind of like how water finds it's own level. I don't care what you are arguing, follow the dollar and you will find the true bottom line, have a shot of tequila. The sky really isn't falling it is simply the financing is shifting, constantly.

Sweetwater - 4-18-2014 at 04:48 PM

There is no doubt that humans can damage the environment and our habitat. There is no doubt that we can poison it and give ourselves diseases both infectious and cancerous. BUT, the planet is still much larger than we are......still, there is no excuse not to be good stewards of ourselves, IMHO

Ian Rutherford Plimer is an Australian geologist, professor emeritus of earth sciences at the University of Melbourne , professor of mining geology at the University of Adelaide , and the director of multiple mineral exploration and mining companies. He has published 130 scientific papers, six books and edited the Encyclopedia of Geology.

Quote:

I don't really want to rain on your parade too much, but I should mention that when the volcano Mt Pinatubo erupted in the Philippines in 1991, it spewed out more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere than the entire human race had emitted in all its years on earth.

woody with a view - 4-18-2014 at 06:18 PM

and here on the back burner:

http://www.dailytech.com/NASA+Finds+Habitable+Zone+Planet+Si...

elgatoloco - 4-18-2014 at 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Real scientists continually collect data and do not make finite pronouncements based on tiny amounts of data. The climate has always been changing and none of us live long enough to have any grasp on seeing anything beyond normal fluctuations.

Solar activity, volcanoes and other NATURAL occurrences cause the climate to change. Man cannot and has not ever changed the earth's global climate. If you ever were at sea then you would understand that land is the minority surface on earth and man occupies only some of the land.

If you can't see this is a massive scam to take more money from you and make government even more oppressive and controlling, then there is nothing I can do more than just ask to use common sense and see the facts... not a graph that was reversed in an Al Gore movie.

They already have been shown to be wrong, since the earth has been cooling each year since this hysteria of Global Warming began. Now they call it 'Climate Change'.. LOL! The climate has always changed over thousands to millions of years. They will continue to change with or without man. How much poorer you make American taxpayers will not change the change! :light:

Anyone know the story of Chicken Little? The Emperor Has No Clothes is also appropriate for this worship of all things liberal.

wessongroup - 4-18-2014 at 08:00 PM

:lol:

redhilltown - 4-18-2014 at 11:32 PM

Quote:

Anyone know the story of Chicken Little? The Emperor Has No Clothes is also appropriate for this worship of all things liberal.

"Tiny amounts of data"

..."none of us live long enough to have any grasp on seeing anything beyond normal fluctuations."

And the Ken Ham Award of the Week goes to: !!!!!!!!!

vgabndo - 4-19-2014 at 08:07 AM

Quote:

Anyone know the story of Chicken Little? The Emperor Has No Clothes is also appropriate for this worship of all things liberal.

Earlier in this thread I posted a link to a perfectly serious site providing instructions for "praying to God to change the weather" and was accused of "blowing hot air" by DavidK. I was willing to accept that from an expert on hot air, but for the sake of accuracy, if you ever intend to have a conversation with me about science, you are going to have to be able to run faster than me. I assure you that I am most likely going to make a survival effort to run far enough that I can't be effectively irritated by your mouth noises. If all like-minded people also run from your nonsense, I'll have the pleasure of stopping for a breather with 97% of the planet's climate scientists and we can decide among ourselves if they are "real" or not!!! Yes, I second the nomination for the Ham Award!

Bajaboy - 4-19-2014 at 11:37 AM

Quote:

Anyone know the story of Chicken Little? The Emperor Has No Clothes is also appropriate for this worship of all things liberal.

David, I'll show you my facts/sources..

Temperatures this year are in line with the trend since 2000, said WMO Secretary-General Michael Jarraud, adding that the 2000 to 2010 period was the warmest decade on record so far.

Driving the world's rising global temperatures are the buildup of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, which the WMO said reached new highs in 2012 and are expected to climb to "unprecedented levels" again in 2013 once this year is complete.

"This means that we are committed to a warmer future," he said.

taken from: http://www.wmo.int/pages/mediacentre/press_releases/pr_981_e...

How about you show me your facts/sources....and Facebook doesn't count :light:

[Edited on 4-19-2014 by Bajaboy]

woody with a view - 4-19-2014 at 11:41 AM

luckily, i prefer warm weather! :light:

DavidE - 4-19-2014 at 12:49 PM

THE NORTHWEST PASSAGE OPENS

Panama Goes Broke

The Matanuska Valley grows seven crops of tropical fruit during the Night/Day season.

The Taliban tries to survive in 170F temperatures

Vegetation worldwide rejoices. GIVE US UREA and PHOSPHOROUS and we'll show you a thing or two.

Canadian geese give forth a sigh of relief. NO MORE SACRIFICIAL DOWN!

British Columbianos sell to the highest bidder and move to Yellowknife.

America agrees to reduce CO2 production 99.9% while Chinese emissions increase 600%

Al Gore is forced to pontificate from Thule Greenland

Human beings actually KNOW about 0.000000003% of the history of this planet.

CO2 levels are going up. But in history massive die-offs of the tropical rain forest in the Amazon have released more CO2 by MAGNITUDES than all the CO2 ever produced by man since Lucy loped in Africa. You do your own research on this.

Global warming is of ZERO importance as compared to the slaughter going on in the 7 seas. Massive disruption and skewing of marine life balance will damage this earth and have insane consequences for mankind.

Meanwhile it's KUMBAYA, not construct canals, and plan for the inevitable consequences of a higher CO2 percentage.

Only an IDIOT believes CO2 production in the USA competes with the CO2 production in China where COAL is the primary fuel.

David K - 4-19-2014 at 12:56 PM

No matter how rich Al Gore gets selling Carbon Credits, the world's temperature will continue to change from the same actions in Nature that have always changed it.

It may be getting warmer or it may be getting cooler... SO WHAT? Taking more money from us taxpayers doesn't change the world's temperature. :light:

Bajaboy - 4-19-2014 at 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
No matter how rich Al Gore gets selling Carbon Credits, the world's temperature will continue to change from the same actions in Nature that have always changed it.

It may be getting warmer or it may be getting cooler... SO WHAT? Taking more money from us taxpayers doesn't change the world's temperature. :light:

sources...facts.... :?:

Can you at least throw me a crumb?

DavidE - 4-19-2014 at 03:03 PM

A Crumb?

Shoot I can't even pick up Al Gore, never mind throw him...

Here is a link to a PhD astrophysicist, rather than to a failed lawyer...

http://www.weatheraction.com/

Enjoy your dollar an orange up there. Someone posted an image of 5 oranges on the ground and now there is a terrible new blight that has devastated the world's orange crop. You people are being taken for suckers.

LancairDriver - 4-19-2014 at 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Your right Goat.These Koch brothers sure are a pair of tight Bastards who arent included in the humanitarian and altruistic group.

David H. Koch Charitable Foundation and Personal Philanthropy

Ultra-sensitive chip-based devices allow researchers at the
David H. Koch Institute for Integrative Cancer Research to
study changes in nanoparticles or living cells with a million
times greater precision than ever before. Diagnosed with
prostate cancer in 1993, Mr. Koch has given millions for
research to beat the disease.
Foundations & Philanthropy

Fred and Mary Koch Foundation
Koch Cultural Trust
Charles Koch Foundation
Charles Koch Institute
David H. Koch Charitable Foundation
& Personal Philanthropy

David H. Koch earned bachelor’s and master’s degrees in chemical engineering from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. He joined Koch Industries, Inc. in 1970 and today serves as an executive vice president and board member. As chairman and president of Koch Membrane Systems, Inc., his passion for water technology has led to clean water innovations that have been exhibited at the International Desalination Association World Congress. Koch Membrane Systems is part of Koch Chemical Technology Group, LLC, a subsidiary of Koch Industries, Inc.

A long-time philanthropist, Mr. Koch has given generously to a variety of organizations and programs. In his lifetime, he and the David H. Koch Charitable Foundation have pledged or contributed more than $1 billion to cancer research, medical centers, educational institutions, arts and cultural institutions, and to assist public policy organizations.
Medical & Cancer Research

A prostate cancer survivor, Mr. Koch has donated $100 million as prime contributor for the David H. Koch Institute for Integrative Cancer Research at MIT. Other support for medical and cancer research includes:

$100 million to NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital to help build the David H. Koch Center, a new ambulatory care center
$20 million to Johns Hopkins University for the David H. Koch Cancer Research Center
$30 million to the Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York City
$25 million to the M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston for the David H. Koch Center for Applied Research of Genitourinary Cancers
$15 million to New York-Presbyterian Hospital Weill Cornell Medical Center
$25 million to The Hospital for Special Surgery in New York City
$10 million to Jaffe Food Allergy Institute at the Mount Sinai Medical Center to create the David H. and Julia Koch Research Program in Food Allergy Therapeutics

In 2011, Mr. Koch received the Humanitarian of the Year award from the American Apparel and Footwear Association for his long-standing support of organizations working to find a cure for prostate cancer. The awards gala raised more than $1.1 million for the Prostate Cancer Foundation. In 2007, he was honored with the Double Helix Medal for Corporate Leadership from Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory for supporting research that, “improves the health of people everywhere.”

Mr. Koch was honored by the Smithsonian Institution in
2012 for his generous support, and presented with a piece of
Smithsonite by G. Wayne Clough (left), secretary of the
Smithsonian Institution.
Education & Science

Mr. Koch supports science-related projects including funding the long-running PBS documentary series, “Nova,” and a science and technology center at Deerfield Academy in Massachusetts.

A $35 million pledge to the Smithsonian’s National Museum of Natural History will renovate the dinosaur hall, which will be named after him. Once renovated, the hall will showcase the museum's unrivaled collection of 46 million fossils and present the most up-to-date scientific research. His $15 million gift to the museum created the David H. Koch Hall of Human Origins that opened in 2010. The 15,000-square-foot exhibit helps answer the question, “What does it mean to be human?“

Other education and science-related support includes:

The Koch Biology Building and the David H. Koch School of Chemical Engineering Practice at MIT
A $20 million gift to the American Museum of Natural History, establishing the David H. Koch Dinosaur Wing
The Bill of Rights Institute, which educates students and teachers about our nation's Founding principles, including national sponsor of the 2009-2010 high school essay contest, “Being an American“

Arts & Culture

In 2013, the Metropolitan Museum of Art formally broke ground for the new David H. Koch Plaza. His $65 million gift will give the 140-year-old museum a beautiful outdoor setting with new fountains, landscaping and improved access, all designed with sustainability in mind.

Gifts from the David H. Koch Charitable Foundation have benefited the American Ballet Theater. In 2008, his foundation gave $100 million for the preservation and renovation of the State Theater of New York at Lincoln Center. Now known as the David H. Koch Theater, it is home to the New York City Ballet and New York City Opera.
Public Policy

A passionate believer in free societies, Mr. Koch has funded research and education programs that analyze how freedom creates prosperity and advances social progress. He serves on the boards of the Cato Institute, Reason Foundation and Americans for Prosperity Foundation.

David K - 4-19-2014 at 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

sources...facts.... :?:

Can you at least throw me a crumb?

Facts? You need facts to interpret the statement that IT DOESN'T MATTER, because climate has ALWAYS been changing NO MATTER what man has done? The world isn't flat, but do you need facts to just know that? Will a photo do?

Seriously, because you allow emotion and politics to dictate what you want to believe, it won't matter what facts anybody produces. The 'facts' you will only believe come from left wing radical extremists who wish only to control people and destroy capitalism in order to justify the dictatorship that ensures their grasp on power. Government control over our bodies is a big first step to a socialist dictatorship... "keep voting for 'us' if you want health care. The sad truth is now people have less care and are paying more for the less. The number of people without any health care is higher than before the 'affordable care act'.

I believe in people not government bureaucracy and the benefits of more freedom to everybody.

Not that it matter or that you will just say it is bunk, but here is an article on how the world is getting cooler in recent years and the ice cap is again growing: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2415191/And-global-C...

Some common sense talk from 2009 by the founder of the Weather Channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8FhmuWWcGw

Try and shelve you hysteria of man destroying the climate and listen to real science.

woody with a view - 4-19-2014 at 04:24 PM

DK said, "Will a photo do?"

Yes, but PLEASE no maps!

[Edited on 4-19-2014 by woody with a view]

Bajaboy - 4-19-2014 at 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

sources...facts.... :?:

Can you at least throw me a crumb?

Thank you and please accept my apology for getting so emotional. I also appreciate you once again giving me your opinion. Unfortunately, your opinion is not FACT!

DianaT - 4-19-2014 at 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Government control over our bodies is a big first step to a socialist dictatorship... "keep voting for 'us' if you want health care. The sad truth is now people have less care and are paying more for the less. The number of people without any health care is higher than before the 'affordable care act'.

Now surely you have some reliable links to some facts and statistics that backs up that claim?? Numbers, please

And since the ACA is private insurance based, please, a link as to how the government is gaining control over our bodies; unless it is the right wing legislatures in some states that are dictating to women what they can do with their bodies. (If you want, that one is EASY to back up. )

And since countries like Canada, Great Britain, Germany, and many, many more have government controlled heathcare, why have they not become Socialist Dictatorships? Surely there are some expert researchers involved in this question?

Who are these people you believe want a socialist dictatorship in the USA? And please be specific. Who?

Opinions are one thing, facts are another, so just back up your opinions with some facts, please so we can all be better informed.

You throw these statements around like they are factually based, or are they just your opinion?

[Edited on 4-20-2014 by DianaT]

elgatoloco - 4-19-2014 at 06:33 PM

John Coleman? :lol:

bajadogs - 4-19-2014 at 06:38 PM

David gets his "news" from AM radio. The crap he types is the same puke I hear from all the Fox talking heads. AND, for some reason DK is allowed to vomit his horse plop all over the Baja Nomad forum without taking it OFF TOPIC!!!!

David,
It is impossible for me to have a logical discussion when your topic is OFF-TOPIC and you assume to be too good for the OFF TOPIC forum.

You are not.

woody with a view - 4-19-2014 at 08:19 PM

which DAVID are you refering to?

bajadogs - 4-19-2014 at 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view
which DAVID are you refering to?

DavidK is whom I was referring. I thought it would be obvious since it was a quick reply and had referred to him as DK in the same post. My apologies to all the other Davids.

David K - 4-19-2014 at 10:50 PM

Nice if you read what I said and didn't change my message. I said it doesn't matter what any of us does about climate. Climate changes naturally. Using fear to get rich or have more power is a shame.

redhilltown - 4-19-2014 at 11:46 PM

What is rarely ever taken into account is the difference between a world a few million years ago as to climate fluctuations (or a few thousand depending on your beliefs) and the current situation of billions of people belching poisonous crap into the atmosphere daily...it is not apples and oranges. Are the oceans the same? The forests? The glaciers? Even if the left wing tree hugging elitists are wrong doesn't it make some sense to take a stand against excessive fossil fuel emissions and search for a better answer?

[Edited on 4-20-2014 by redhilltown]

Timo1 - 4-20-2014 at 07:17 AM

I got this in an email

The Washington Post

The Arctic Ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some
places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the
Commerce Department yesterday from Consulafft, at Bergen, Norway.

Reports from fishermen, seal hunters, and explorers all point to a radical
change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard-of temperatures in the
Arctic zone. Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been
met as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes.

Soundings to a depth of 3,100 metres showed the gulf stream still very warm.
Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and stones, the
report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely
disappeared.

Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast
shoals of herring and smelts which have never before ventured so far north,
are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds. Within a few years it
is predicted that due to the ice melt the sea will rise and make most
coastal cities uninhabitable.

* * * * * * * * *
I apologize, I neglected to mention that this report was from November 2,
1922, as reported by the AP and published in The Washington Post - 90+ years
ago.

DianaT - 4-20-2014 at 08:08 AM

DavidK

Just in case you missed this post, here it is again. Or did you just ignore it because you threw these statements out with no expert backing?

You said it like it was true, so surely you can back it up. It would be educational for all of us.

And yes, it has nothing to do with El Niño, but you decided to throw it out there, so please give us some facts.

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

Cliffy - 4-20-2014 at 08:30 AM

Let's see- the glaciers retreated and the Ice Age ended over 10,000 yrs ago when the Mammoth died off. It's been said that 48% of Climatologists disagree with stated Global Warming causation.
Seems all this stuff happened before with man's intervention.

In case you missed Timmo1's disclaimer ...

durrelllrobert - 4-20-2014 at 08:42 AM

I apologize, I neglected to mention that this report was from November 2,
1922, as reported by the AP and published in The Washington Post - 90+ years
ago.

monoloco - 4-20-2014 at 08:42 AM

" Government control over our bodies is a big first step to a socialist dictatorship... "keep voting for 'us' if you want health care. The sad truth is now people have less care and are paying more for the less. The number of people without any health care is higher than before the 'affordable care act'."

So I guess you consider all these countries to be "socialist dictatorships":

Country Start Date of Universal Health Care System Type

Norway 1912 Single Payer
New Zealand 1938 Two Tier
Japan 1938 Single Payer
Germany 1941 Insurance Mandate
Belgium 1945 Insurance Mandate
United Kingdom 1948 Single Payer
Kuwait 1950 Single Payer
Sweden 1955 Single Payer
Bahrain 1957 Single Payer
Brunei 1958 Single Payer
Canada 1966 Single Payer
Netherlands 1966 Two-Tier
Austria 1967 Insurance Mandate
United Arab Emirates 1971 Single Payer
Finland 1972 Single Payer
Slovenia 1972 Single Payer
Denmark 1973 Two-Tier
Luxembourg 1973 Insurance Mandate
France 1974 Two-Tier
Australia 1975 Two Tier
Ireland 1977 Two-Tier
Italy 1978 Single Payer
Portugal 1979 Single Payer
Cyprus 1980 Single Payer
Greece 1983 Insurance Mandate
Spain 1986 Single Payer
South Korea 1988 Insurance Mandate
Iceland 1990 Single Payer
Hong Kong 1993 Two-Tier
Singapore 1993 Two-Tier
Switzerland 1994 Insurance Mandate
Israel 1995 Two-Tier

[Edited on 4-20-2014 by monoloco]

vgabndo - 4-20-2014 at 08:53 AM

"I apologize, I neglected to mention that this report was from November 2,
1922, as reported by the AP and published in The Washington Post - 90+ years
ago. "

This is information which was sent to the USA from the U S Consul to Norway copying the report of a GEOLOGIST, Dr. Adolf Hoel of the University of Christiania who was looking for coal deposits, and made some other observations. He reported that the fish he expected to find had been replaced by "shoals" of Herring and Smelt which like the warmer water. The whole piece also makes it clear that, according to Capt. Martin Ingebrigtsen, the whole region was hardly recognizable from his original observations in 1868. This kind of study can be seen as a ripple on the face of the tsunami of climate change.

In fact, the study of trapped atmosphere in bubbles in ancient ice have given us a very clear picture of climate change over the period of modern human occupation of the planet. I'd be interested in seeing any good science that counters the conclusion that CO2 in the atmosphere has spiked since the industrial revolution. (This is the hockey stick graph often used by climate scientists to illustrate the rapid rise in CO2 in our atmosphere.)

Another inconvenient truth is that 97% of internationally recognized climate scientists disagree with the personal opinion of David K, a regionally recognized residential irrigation contractor. These scientists have also PUBLISHED THEIR DATA and the international community of scientists have given it close scrutiny in an effort to find errors in the conclusions. You might notice, David, that none of them is making these claims based on their personal opinion.

http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/changing-...

Skipjack Joe - 4-20-2014 at 08:57 AM

What's the point of comparing environment predictions with those made 100 years ago. Surely we have learned something in 100 years. Surely our measurements have improved. 100 years ago Lindberg flew across the Atlantic using dead reckoning, the titanic couldn't 'see' an iceberg right in front of it, and Amelia Erhart couldn't spot an island in the Pacific to land on.

Surely our instruments, computers, and models have improved over these years?

[Edited on 4-20-2014 by Skipjack Joe]

chuckie - 4-20-2014 at 09:01 AM

BUT? How did the Thesaurus survive the Dinosaur extinction?

vgabndo - 4-20-2014 at 09:03 AM

David K's documentation.

Not that it matter or that you will just say it is bunk, but here is an article on how the world is getting cooler in recent years and the ice cap is again growing: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2415191/And-global-C...

David, I invite you to be more cognizant of the sources of your "documentation". The 4th. Viscount of Rothermere, Harold Jonathan Esmond Vere Harmsworth, the editor of the Daily Mail, a National Inquirer style TABLOID inherited his multi-million Pound wealth, and is a well known arch conservative without much of a positive reputation as an honest journalist. Got anything from a legitimate scientist from a peer reviewed study?

And, what the blood hell does the ACA have to do with El Nino??? Just grasping for straws??

David K - 4-20-2014 at 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
" Government control over our bodies is a big first step to a socialist dictatorship... "keep voting for 'us' if you want health care. The sad truth is now people have less care and are paying more for the less. The number of people without any health care is higher than before the 'affordable care act'."

So I guess you consider all these countries to be "socialist dictatorships":

Country Start Date of Universal Health Care System Type

Norway 1912 Single Payer
New Zealand 1938 Two Tier
Japan 1938 Single Payer
Germany 1941 Insurance Mandate
Belgium 1945 Insurance Mandate
United Kingdom 1948 Single Payer
Kuwait 1950 Single Payer
Sweden 1955 Single Payer
Bahrain 1957 Single Payer
Brunei 1958 Single Payer
Canada 1966 Single Payer
Netherlands 1966 Two-Tier
Austria 1967 Insurance Mandate
United Arab Emirates 1971 Single Payer
Finland 1972 Single Payer
Slovenia 1972 Single Payer
Denmark 1973 Two-Tier
Luxembourg 1973 Insurance Mandate
France 1974 Two-Tier
Australia 1975 Two Tier
Ireland 1977 Two-Tier
Italy 1978 Single Payer
Portugal 1979 Single Payer
Cyprus 1980 Single Payer
Greece 1983 Insurance Mandate
Spain 1986 Single Payer
South Korea 1988 Insurance Mandate
Iceland 1990 Single Payer
Hong Kong 1993 Two-Tier
Singapore 1993 Two-Tier
Switzerland 1994 Insurance Mandate
Israel 1995 Two-Tier

[Edited on 4-20-2014 by monoloco]

You missed the part where I said "First Step"... ? :lol:

Happy Easter!

durrelllrobert - 4-20-2014 at 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LancairDriver

Your right Goat.These Koch brothers sure are a pair of tight Bastards who arent included in the humanitarian and altruistic group.

David H. Koch Charitable Foundation and Personal Philanthropy

Ultra-sensitive chip-based devices allow researchers at the
David H. Koch Institute for Integrative Cancer Research to
study changes in nanoparticles or living cells with a million
times greater precision than ever before. Diagnosed with
prostate cancer in 1993, Mr. Koch has given millions for
research to beat the disease.
Foundations & Philanthropy

Fred and Mary Koch Foundation
Koch Cultural Trust
Charles Koch Foundation
Charles Koch Institute
David H. Koch Charitable Foundation
& Personal Philanthropy

David H. Koch earned bachelor’s and master’s degrees in chemical engineering from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. He joined Koch Industries, Inc. in 1970 and today serves as an executive vice president and board member. As chairman and president of Koch Membrane Systems, Inc., his passion for water technology has led to clean water innovations that have been exhibited at the International Desalination Association World Congress. Koch Membrane Systems is part of Koch Chemical Technology Group, LLC, a subsidiary of Koch Industries, Inc.

A long-time philanthropist, Mr. Koch has given generously to a variety of organizations and programs. In his lifetime, he and the David H. Koch Charitable Foundation have pledged or contributed more than $1 billion to cancer research, medical centers, educational institutions, arts and cultural institutions, and to assist public policy organizations.
Medical & Cancer Research

A prostate cancer survivor, Mr. Koch has donated $100 million as prime contributor for the David H. Koch Institute for Integrative Cancer Research at MIT. Other support for medical and cancer research includes:

$100 million to NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital to help build the David H. Koch Center, a new ambulatory care center
$20 million to Johns Hopkins University for the David H. Koch Cancer Research Center
$30 million to the Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York City
$25 million to the M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston for the David H. Koch Center for Applied Research of Genitourinary Cancers
$15 million to New York-Presbyterian Hospital Weill Cornell Medical Center
$25 million to The Hospital for Special Surgery in New York City
$10 million to Jaffe Food Allergy Institute at the Mount Sinai Medical Center to create the David H. and Julia Koch Research Program in Food Allergy Therapeutics

In 2011, Mr. Koch received the Humanitarian of the Year award from the American Apparel and Footwear Association for his long-standing support of organizations working to find a cure for prostate cancer. The awards gala raised more than $1.1 million for the Prostate Cancer Foundation. In 2007, he was honored with the Double Helix Medal for Corporate Leadership from Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory for supporting research that, “improves the health of people everywhere.”

Mr. Koch was honored by the Smithsonian Institution in
2012 for his generous support, and presented with a piece of
Smithsonite by G. Wayne Clough (left), secretary of the
Smithsonian Institution.
Education & Science

Mr. Koch supports science-related projects including funding the long-running PBS documentary series, “Nova,” and a science and technology center at Deerfield Academy in Massachusetts.

A $35 million pledge to the Smithsonian’s National Museum of Natural History will renovate the dinosaur hall, which will be named after him. Once renovated, the hall will showcase the museum's unrivaled collection of 46 million fossils and present the most up-to-date scientific research. His $15 million gift to the museum created the David H. Koch Hall of Human Origins that opened in 2010. The 15,000-square-foot exhibit helps answer the question, “What does it mean to be human?“

Other education and science-related support includes:

The Koch Biology Building and the David H. Koch School of Chemical Engineering Practice at MIT
A $20 million gift to the American Museum of Natural History, establishing the David H. Koch Dinosaur Wing
The Bill of Rights Institute, which educates students and teachers about our nation's Founding principles, including national sponsor of the 2009-2010 high school essay contest, “Being an American“

Arts & Culture

In 2013, the Metropolitan Museum of Art formally broke ground for the new David H. Koch Plaza. His $65 million gift will give the 140-year-old museum a beautiful outdoor setting with new fountains, landscaping and improved access, all designed with sustainability in mind.

Gifts from the David H. Koch Charitable Foundation have benefited the American Ballet Theater. In 2008, his foundation gave $100 million for the preservation and renovation of the State Theater of New York at Lincoln Center. Now known as the David H. Koch Theater, it is home to the New York City Ballet and New York City Opera.
Public Policy

A passionate believer in free societies, Mr. Koch has funded research and education programs that analyze how freedom creates prosperity and advances social progress. He serves on the boards of the Cato Institute, Reason Foundation and Americans for Prosperity Foundation.

....but since they are not Liberals they have to be very bad people :yes:

David K - 4-20-2014 at 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
David K's documentation.

Not that it matter or that you will just say it is bunk, but here is an article on how the world is getting cooler in recent years and the ice cap is again growing: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2415191/And-global-C...

David, I invite you to be more cognizant of the sources of your "documentation". The 4th. Viscount of Rothermere, Harold Jonathan Esmond Vere Harmsworth, the editor of the Daily Mail, a National Inquirer style TABLOID inherited his multi-million Pound wealth, and is a well known arch conservative without much of a positive reputation as an honest journalist. Got anything from a legitimate scientist from a peer reviewed study?

And, what the blood hell does the ACA have to do with El Nino??? Just grasping for straws??

You missed the part where I said it doesn't matter... Have a happy Easter Perry!

Sandlefoot - 4-20-2014 at 09:51 AM

I have been watching this thread, with tongue in cheek. One side is positive that global warming is real and man caused. The other side is positive that it is not real and a way for the government to extort more from the tax payers, businesses that product CO2, and all retail outlets that sell those products. When in reality, and if some one has documentation otherwise I need it, these meteorological scientist are paid whether (weather hehe) they call it correct or not! I think every one would like a job where they can be wrong 80% of the time and still keep that job! Every one here is treating all the information as infallible, when in reality it is only guessing. I know, at least I hope, these are "educated" guesses. But none the less only time will tell whose guess is closer! Every one needs to "agree to disagree" and get off their "I am right and you are wrong" soap box! After all, no one really knows the answer, regardless of documentation.

Happy Easter!!!

Happy Trails

PS... on edit: We all still need to do what we believe is in the best interest of the world we live in. Being responsible for our own beliefs is what makes this world exciting!!!!

[Edited on 4-20-2014 by Sandlefoot]

David K - 4-20-2014 at 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Timo1
I got this in an email

The Washington Post

The Arctic Ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some
places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the
Commerce Department yesterday from Consulafft, at Bergen, Norway.

Reports from fishermen, seal hunters, and explorers all point to a radical
change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard-of temperatures in the
Arctic zone. Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been
met as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes.

Soundings to a depth of 3,100 metres showed the gulf stream still very warm.
Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and stones, the
report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely
disappeared.

Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast
shoals of herring and smelts which have never before ventured so far north,
are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds. Within a few years it
is predicted that due to the ice melt the sea will rise and make most
coastal cities uninhabitable.

* * * * * * * * *
I apologize, I neglected to mention that this report was from November 2,
1922, as reported by the AP and published in The Washington Post - 90+ years
ago.

Great find... no surprise. Sensationalizing blips in the weather/ climate sells papers... and 80-90 years later the same thing makes out-of-work vice presidents richer. The leftist loving media jumps to the aid of the idiotic things to support their guys.

If Dan Quayle had said the EXACT same thing as Al Gore about Global Warming, the media would have a field day and actually use the facts to rip him apart... as they did when he corrected the spelling of potato to a school kid. :rolleyes:

David K - 4-20-2014 at 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandlefoot
I have been watching this thread, with tongue in cheek. One side is positive that global warming is real and man caused. The other side is positive that it is not real and a way for the government to extort more from the tax payers, businesses that product CO2, and all retail outlets that sell those products. When in reality, and if some one has documentation otherwise I need it, these meteorological scientist are paid whether (weather hehe) they call it correct or not! I think every one would like a job where they can be wrong 80% of the time and still keep that job! Every one here is treating all the information as infallible, when in reality it is only guessing. I know, at least I hope, these are "educated" guesses. But none the less only time will tell whose guess is closer! Every one needs to "agree to disagree" and get off their "I am right and you are wrong" soap box! After all, no one really knows the answer, regardless of documentation.

Happy Easter!!!

Happy Trails

Thank you and happy Easter to you too.

To be clear, I never said it is not real... I said it doesn't matter because the climate will change no matter what man does or doesn't do, as it has for millions of years. In fact I agree that the climate is changing... and it is normal and natural for it to change. If you can control sun spots and volcanic eruptions then you might be able to control the climate... of course if you could do those things, then you might be worshiped in a church?

vgabndo - 4-20-2014 at 10:13 AM

OK David, I guess if it doesn't matter to you, the rest of the planet can also go along in the same blissful ignorance.
Your Holy Day wishes are misplaced. But, if you haven't got it by now; I don't believe in zombies rising from the dead to threaten the existence of humankind. I also give no intellectual weight to the myth of Ishtar from which the Bronze Age myth of Easter was appropriated. It just has never occurred to me to give much credence to the "value" of a purported human sacrifice by people who couldn't get it together to invent a wheelbarrow. (or a written language)

So, happy 4/20/2014 BCE. Most folks agree that this is the 20th. of April and I find no reason to disagree. Right?

tripledigitken - 4-20-2014 at 10:30 AM

Perry,

We all know you're an atheist why must you beat that drum so much? Do you tell your new Mexican neighbors how ignorant you think their religious beliefs are?

Rant over.

Peace out

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
OK David, I guess if it doesn't matter to you, the rest of the planet can also go along in the same blissful ignorance.
Your Holy Day wishes are misplaced. But, if you haven't got it by now; I don't believe in zombies rising from the dead to threaten the existence of humankind. I also give no intellectual weight to the myth of Ishtar from which the Bronze Age myth of Easter was appropriated. It just has never occurred to me to give much credence to the "value" of a purported human sacrifice by people who couldn't get it together to invent a wheelbarrow. (or a written language)

So, happy 4/20/2014 BCE. Most folks agree that this is the 20th. of April and I find no reason to disagree. Right?

woody with a view - 4-20-2014 at 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
So, happy 4/20/2014 BCE. Most folks agree that this is the 20th. of April and I find no reason to disagree. Right?

my buddy's B-Day today. he is happy it is 420, if you know what i mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/420_%28cannabis_culture%29

Skipjack Joe - 4-20-2014 at 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chuckie

BUT? How did the Thesaurus survive the Dinosaur extinction?

Love it !!!

What a knee slapper !!!!!

Bajaboy - 4-20-2014 at 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

It doesn't matter what man does? Are you for real? So you're suggesting it's okay to dump toxic sludge into the rivers and all will be well? I'm guessing pollution measures are a waste of time and money as well.

Please clarify?!

DianaT - 4-20-2014 at 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
DavidK

Just in case you missed this post, here it is again. Or did you just ignore it because you threw these statements out with no expert backing?

You said it like it was true, so surely you can back it up. It would be educational for all of us.

And yes, it has nothing to do with El Niño, but you decided to throw it out there, so please give us some facts.

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

Obviously, if you don't see the data as factual you will call it opinion. I know people who lost their health insurance that they liked, despite what this president promised everyone ("If you like your health care, you can keep it"). Even the presidents people have said in the reports that there still will be uninsured Americans after Obama care is in place... if you look at their numbers, they are greater than before Obama care! What was the point of this chaos?

As for why the side bar: I threw it in there to offer some balance with the repeated times that conservative people in America are trashed on this web site, such as in the signatures of some which makes every one of their posts 'political' and not Baja related.

Happy Easter DianaT

Where can I find those numbers? Chaos, no, just wanting to learn. What data? How can one decide if it is factual or not unless one can see the data that supports your claim. I can't find it. Your attempt to say this is "chaos" is simply begging the question and I suspect it is because you don't have reliable data.

I know that now my self-employed sons and families are now able to have affordable health care, but that does not say that the entire program is great. Can't base everything on one or two people.

And yes, not everyone is covered, especially the ones who slipped through the system when some governors refused the medicaid assistance.

But David, you made some very strong claims as if the are fact, and if you can not back them up with actual data, then they are strictly opinions. You chose to put it out there as factual---- data, please.

Now, IMHO, and you notice I say opinion, the ACA is here to stay and that is a good thing--- except, IMHO, it needs to go further and lead to a single payer program. No facts, no data, just opinion.

As far as climate change, I am no expert, but I tend to believe in science and the experts in that field. Just look at the list of real scientific organizations who believe it is real and human activity is definitely involved.

97% of Scientists

Do you seriously believe that ALL of these agencies and scientist have some hidden money making political agenda? If so, please elaborate as to the specifics of that agenda.

The pagan holiday of Easter is a good one for those of us who are pantheists.

[Edited on 4-20-2014 by DianaT]

wessongroup - 4-20-2014 at 11:47 AM

Anyone remember Ozone depletion ... :biggrin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion

A good day for a Turkey

[Edited on 4-20-2014 by wessongroup]

David K - 4-20-2014 at 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Zac, my friend... there you go again... Leaving out some of my words to try and , well who knows why??

A LOT matters what man does, don't be so silly... but as far as global climate change, the things man HAS done hasn't affected it. That doesn't mean blowing up 100 hydrogen bombs won't cause an issue, but then a lot of us won't survive that, so the climate won't really matter will it?

How about just plain old facts and records... and without reversing CO2 graphs to make an argument.

97% of what scientists? Is Al Gore a scientist to you... am I... how about John Coleman? Did you actually look at the few minutes of common sense scientific data he provided in 2009... that still is true today? Yet the 'global warmists' had to rename their theory because it already has been proven false... 'climate changers' now?

True scientist continually collect data and do not make 'conclusive' statements on what is or isn't happening... The weather, like the economy, is dynamic not static. Try and open your eyes and see it is much bigger than the box you are told to look into.

It is Easter, a day to enjoy the world, not to freak out that the sky is falling (or warming). Live a good life! :cool:

David K - 4-20-2014 at 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
Anyone remember Ozone depletion ... :biggrin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion

A good day for a Turkey

[Edited on 4-20-2014 by wessongroup]

It is almost comedy to see the hysteria over brief recording of data... only to be countered by a few more readings or corrections to previous reports (from the link above):

"Scientists calculated that if CFC production continued to increase at the going rate of 10% per year until 1990 and then remain steady, CFCs would cause a global ozone loss of 5 to 7% by 1995, and a 30 to 50% loss by 2050. In response the United States, Canada and Norway banned the use of CFCs in aerosol spray cans in 1978. However, subsequent research, summarized by the National Academy in reports issued between 1979 and 1984, appeared to show that the earlier estimates of global ozone loss had been too large"

vgabndo - 4-20-2014 at 01:48 PM

Thanks for your comment Ken, see your u2u.

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
Perry,

We all know you're an atheist why must you beat that drum so much? Do you tell your new Mexican neighbors how ignorant you think their religious beliefs are?

Rant over.

Peace out

Quote:

wessongroup - 4-20-2014 at 02:06 PM

Say, ya figure these substances are not "bad actors" in our environment :lol:

National Ambient Air Quality Standards (NAAQS)

http://www.epa.gov/air/criteria.html

or, how about Polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) :biggrin:

there are others ...

[Edited on 4-20-2014 by wessongroup]

Ateo - 4-20-2014 at 02:43 PM

Quote:

Atheists don't go door to door, telling our neighbors how ignorant their beliefs are. Generally, we don't think their beliefs are ignorant, as there are many educated and smart believers (I was one). What we do think is their beliefs are not rooted in evidence.

Happy Easter. Happy Easter. Happy Easter.

I think our good friend Perry was just replying to this. =)

Spread the love.

Peace out.

=)

Skipjack Joe - 4-20-2014 at 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo

Atheists don't go door to door, telling our neighbors how ignorant their beliefs are. Generally, we don't think their beliefs are ignorant, as there are many educated and smart believers (I was one).

Perhaps my favorite church teaching - modesty.

LancairDriver - 4-20-2014 at 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Perhaps my favorite church teaching - modesty.

Mismo a adecuado! :lol:

Bajaboy - 4-20-2014 at 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

My mistake...I was just reading what you wrote. By the way, who is freaking out? I like that you haven't made any 'conclusive statements" and are open to the fact that climate change exists.

I suppose life might be more simple if I thought like you..... :yes:

FWIW

woody with a view - 4-20-2014 at 04:48 PM

don't believe everything the guvmint says..... the first and last sentences say it all......

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/study-fuels-corn-waste-not-bet...

WASHINGTON (AP) — Biofuels made from the leftovers of harvested corn plants are worse than gasoline for global warming in the short term, a study shows, challenging the Obama administration's conclusions that they are a much cleaner oil alternative and will help combat climate change.

A $500,000 study paid for by the federal government and released Sunday in the peer-reviewed journal Nature Climate Change concludes that biofuels made with corn residue release 7 percent more greenhouse gases in the early years compared with conventional gasoline.

While biofuels are better in the long run, the study says they won't meet a standard set in a 2007 energy law to qualify as renewable fuel.

The conclusions deal a blow to what are known as cellulosic biofuels, which have received more than a billion dollars in federal support but have struggled to meet volume targets mandated by law. About half of the initial market in cellulosics is expected to be derived from corn residue.

The biofuel industry and administration officials immediately criticized the research as flawed. They said it was too simplistic in its analysis of carbon loss from soil, which can vary over a single field, and vastly overestimated how much residue farmers actually would remove once the market gets underway.

"The core analysis depicts an extreme scenario that no responsible farmer or business would ever employ because it would ruin both the land and the long-term supply of feedstock. It makes no agronomic or business sense," said Jan Koninckx, global business director for biorefineries at DuPont.

Later this year the company is scheduled to finish a $200 million-plus facility in Nevada, Iowa, that will produce 30 million gallons of cellulosic ethanol using corn residue from nearby farms. An assessment paid for by DuPont said that the ethanol it will produce there could be more than 100 percent better than gasoline in terms of greenhouse gas emissions.

The research is among the first to attempt to quantify, over 12 Corn Belt states, how much carbon is lost to the atmosphere when the stalks, leaves and cobs that make up residue are removed and used to make biofuel, instead of left to naturally replenish the soil with carbon. The study found that regardless of how much corn residue is taken off the field, the process contributes to global warming.
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FILE - This Jan. 9, 2009, file photo shows equipment …
FILE - This Jan. 9, 2009, file photo shows equipment inside a pilot plant in Scotland, S.D., that tu …

"I knew this research would be contentious," said Adam Liska, the lead author and an assistant professor of biological systems engineering at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln. "I'm amazed it has not come out more solidly until now."

The Environmental Protection Agency's own analysis, which assumed about half of corn residue would be removed from fields, found that fuel made from corn residue, also known as stover, would meet the standard in the energy law. That standard requires cellulosic biofuels to release 60 percent less carbon pollution than gasoline.

Cellulosic biofuels that don't meet that threshold could be almost impossible to make and sell. Producers wouldn't earn the $1 per gallon subsidy they need to make these expensive fuels and still make a profit. Refiners would shun the fuels because they wouldn't meet their legal obligation to use minimum amounts of next-generation biofuels.

EPA spokeswoman Liz Purchia said in a statement that the study "does not provide useful information relevant to the life cycle greenhouse gas emissions from corn stover ethanol."

But an AP investigation last year found that the EPA's analysis of corn-based ethanol failed to predict the environmental consequences accurately.

The departments of Agriculture and Energy have initiated programs with farmers to make sure residue is harvested sustainably. For instance, farmers will not receive any federal assistance for conservation programs if too much corn residue is removed.

A peer-reviewed study performed at the Energy Department's Argonne National Laboratory in 2012 found that biofuels made with corn residue were 95 percent better than gasoline in greenhouse gas emissions. That study assumed some of the residue harvested would replace power produced from coal, reducing greenhouse gas emissions, but it's unclear whether future biorefineries would do that.

Liska agrees that using some of the residue to make electricity, or planting cover crops, would reduce carbon emissions. But he did not include those in his computer simulation.

Still, corn residue is likely to be a big source early on for cellulosic biofuels, which have struggled to reach commercial scale. Last year, for the fifth time, the EPA proposed reducing the amount required by law. It set a target of 17 million gallons for 2014. The law envisioned 1.75 billion gallons being produced this year.

"The study says it will be very hard to make a biofuel that has a better greenhouse gas impact than gasoline using corn residue," which puts it in the same boat as corn-based ethanol, said David Tilman, a professor at the University of Minnesota who has done research on biofuels' emissions from the farm to the tailpipe.

Tilman said it was the best study on the issue he has seen so far.

___

[Edited on 4-20-2014 by woody with a view]

wessongroup - 4-20-2014 at 05:08 PM

Thanks ... it is a difficult problem

BornFisher - 4-20-2014 at 08:27 PM

What got us out of the last ice age (10,000 years ago) was global warming. And that was before Dick Cheney and Haliburton schemed up how on to screw up the planet!!
Beware of those who use fear to take dollars from your wallet to put them into theirs!
BTW the co-founder of Green Peace now has said "man made climate change is a scam. It`s all about funding."

Mexitron - 4-21-2014 at 05:48 AM

However the middle sentence does clarify the carbon data---the cellulosic ethanol has to be 60 percent of the carbon released from gasoline. So it is better than gasoline, just not meeting the EPA standard:

"The Environmental Protection Agency's own analysis, which assumed about half of corn residue would be removed from fields, found that fuel made from corn residue, also known as stover, would meet the standard in the energy law. That standard requires cellulosic biofuels to release 60 percent less carbon pollution than gasoline."

wessongroup - 4-21-2014 at 11:15 AM

Check with China ... on the need for environmental regulations, as it relates to industrialization without them

Gee, just think where we® could be, if no controls had been adopted via environmental Laws and Regulations ... based on science here in the United States and other industrialized nations

Typically Laws and Regulations are adopted for the protection of Health and Environment are approached with the concept of .... It is better to error on the side of safety ... which I prefer, when dealing with these issues

Nothing is perfect, but, using science as a reference is a much sounder approach, in arriving at an informed decision IMHO

[Edited on 4-21-2014 by wessongroup]

bajadogs - 4-21-2014 at 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BornFisher
BTW the co-founder of Green Peace now has said "man made climate change is a scam. It`s all about funding."

That is not true. Where do you get your info??? Stop spreading the lie!!!

BornFisher - 4-21-2014 at 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajadogs

Quote:

Originally posted by BornFisher
BTW the co-founder of Green Peace now has said "man made climate change is a scam. It`s all about funding."

That is not true. Where do you get your info??? Stop spreading the lie!!!

Here is what Patrick Moore (co-founder of Greenpeace) has said---Global warming[edit]

Moore calls global warming the "most difficult issue facing the scientific community today in terms of being able to actually predict with any kind of accuracy what's going to happen".[33] In 2006, he wrote to the Royal Society arguing there was "no scientific proof" that mankind was causing global warming[44] and believes that it "has a much better correlation with changes in solar activity than CO2 levels".[45]

Moore has stated that global warming and the melting of glaciers is not necessarily a negative event because it creates more arable land and the use of forest products drives up demand for wood and spurs the planting of more trees.[46] Rather than climate change mitigation, Moore advocates adaptation to global warming.[47]

In 2014, Moore testified to the U.S. congress on the subject of Global Warming. “There is no scientific proof that human emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) are the dominant cause of the minor warming of the Earth’s atmosphere over the past 100 years,” according to Moore’s testimony. “Today, we live in an unusually cold period in the history of life on earth and there is no reason to believe that a warmer climate would be anything but beneficial for humans and the majority of other species.” Moore continued, "The fact that we had both higher temperatures and an ice age at a time when CO2 emissions were 10 times higher than they are today fundamentally contradicts the certainty that human-caused CO2 emissions are the main cause of global warming. When modern life evolved over 500 million years ago, CO2 was more than 10 times higher than today, yet life flourished at this time,” he added. “Then an Ice Age occurred 450 million years ago when CO2 was 10 times higher than today... Humans just aren’t capable of predicting global temperature changes".[48]

elgatoloco - 4-21-2014 at 10:21 PM

Patrick Moore is one climate scientist I had never heard of..............oh wait..........never mind........found him.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The writer and environmental activist George Monbiot has written critically of Moore's work with the Indonesian logging firm Asia Pulp & Paper (APP). Moore was hired as a consultant to write an environmental 'inspection report' on APP operations. According to Monbiot, Moore's company is not a monitoring firm and the consultants used were experts in public relations, not tropical ecology or Indonesian law. Monbiot has said that sections of the report were directly copied from an APP PR brochure,[29][50] adding that hiring Moore is now what companies do if their brand is turning toxic.[29]

The Nuclear Information and Resource Service criticized Moore saying that his comment in 1976 that "it should be remembered that there are employed in the nuclear industry some very high-powered public relations organizations. One can no more trust them to tell the truth about nuclear power than about which brand of toothpaste will result in this apparently insoluble problem" was forecasting his own future.[51] The Columbia Journalism Review points out that Moore's position at the Clean and Safe Energy Coalition was paid for by the nuclear industry and he is in fact essentially a paid spokesperson.[51][52]

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/02/27/who-is-patrick-m...

:lol:

bajadogs - 4-21-2014 at 10:45 PM

Ah, brilliant edit job BF. Patrick Moore was not a co-founder of Greenpeace... but he was hanging around them early on and milked it politically.

Conservative media are latching on to the climate change denial of Patrick Moore, who has masqueraded as a co-founder of Greenpeace. But Moore has been a spokesman for nuclear power and fossil fuel-intensive industries for more than 20 years, and his denial of climate change -- without any expertise in the matter -- is nothing new.

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/02/27/who-is-patrick-m...

Wow people are stupid.

bajadogs - 4-21-2014 at 10:49 PM

oops. elgatoloco is quicker than bajadogs. And dances better.

Peace to all

redhilltown - 4-21-2014 at 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajadogs
Ah, brilliant edit job BF. Patrick Moore was not a co-founder of Greenpeace... but he was hanging around them early on and milked it politically.

Conservative media are latching on to the climate change denial of Patrick Moore, who has masqueraded as a co-founder of Greenpeace. But Moore has been a spokesman for nuclear power and fossil fuel-intensive industries for more than 20 years, and his denial of climate change -- without any expertise in the matter -- is nothing new.

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/02/27/who-is-patrick-m...

Wow people are stupid.

New poll indicates that about 40% of Americans are doubtful of the theory of evolution.

HOW DARE you say people are stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As Ken Ham has pointed out, we were NOT THERE to see this process and therefore it is not observational science.

Maybe stupid is a harsh word...maybe delusional is a tad better.

Nah.

Stupid.