BajaNomad

POPE FRANCIS PLANS TO CANONIZE FRAY JUNIPERO SERRA

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David K - 1-16-2015 at 09:55 AM

I got this last night from The California Missions Study Association (CMSA):

(Reuters) - Pope Francis said on Thursday that during his trip to the United States in September he would canonize Junipero Serra, a missionary who brought Christianity to the west of the United States in the 1700s.

"In September, God willing, I will canonize Junipero Serra in the United States, who was the evangelizer of the west of the United States," he told reporters aboard the plane taking him from Sri Lanka to Manila on the second leg of his Asian tour.

Francis is due to visit Philadelphia for a world gathering of Catholic families. While Philadelphia is the only official stop on the tour so far, he is widely expected to visit New York to address the United Nations and Washington to meet President Barrack Obama.

Holding the canonization ceremony in the United States opens up the possibility he might visit the western part of the country where Serra worked as a missionary.

Serra, who was born on the Spanish island of Majorca in 1713, went to the Americas in the middle of the 18th century and led one of the first Franciscan missions in California.

He arrived in San Diego in 1769 and spent most of the rest of his life there before dying at a mission in Carmel near Monterey in 1784.

The Pope said since Serra has for centuries been considered a holy man, he had waved Church rules that require a second miracle to be attributed to the candidate for sainthood after his beatification.

He said Serra was "a great evangelizer".

(Reporting by Philip Pullella; Editing by Jeremy Laurence)

==========================================================

Some notes:
Junipero Serra led the Franciscan missionaries to the shores of Baja California in April, 1768 to replace the Jesuits who were forced out of the New World by Royal orders. A year later, Serra was leading an expedition north of the peninsula to establish two missions in the land then known as 'New California' and later 'Upper California'. The missions were at San Diego and Monterey (later moved to Carmel). Along the way, Serra founded his first mission, San Fernando de Velicata, in Baja California, a site the Jesuits were planning on building their next mission.

After 5 years of operating all the California (Baja & Alta) missions, the Franciscans agreed to allow the Dominican Order of Preachers to take over mission duties on the peninsula, including adding new missions between San Fernando de Velicata and San Diego, to fill the void along El Camino Real.

I have a small connection to Junipero Serra beyond my history writing...
The Serra Museum in San Diego, overlooks Mission Valley and Mission Bay. It was built in 1928-29 by the Kier Construction Company, my dad's uncles.

http://www.sandiegohistory.org/journal/79summer/serra.htm

miracle

captkw - 1-16-2015 at 10:08 AM

2nd miracle ??? what was the first one ???? :?:

???

mtgoat666 - 1-16-2015 at 10:23 AM

these evangelizers were trying to exterminate the entire culture of the natives, i.e. cultural genocide, and along the way they decimated the native population.

canonizing the leaders of this devastation is wrong. next thing you know the pope will be canonizing hitler!

[Edited on 1-16-2015 by mtgoat666]

DENNIS - 1-16-2015 at 10:27 AM



In San Juan Capistrano, some of the local decendants despise the man to this day for turning their ancestors into slaves.

David K - 1-16-2015 at 10:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by captkw  
2nd miracle ??? what was the first one ???? :?:


Surviving Baja Nomad!

David K - 1-16-2015 at 10:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DENNIS  


In San Juan Capistrano, some of the local decendants despise the man to this day for turning their ancestors into slaves.


The book I am reading now sure exposes how brutal some of the Franciscans were... The Jesuits were totally different and quite kind in comparison to the Franciscans and Dominicans. The worst that the Jesuits may have done is force the men to have only one wife, and for that they were killed (even the women rose up against the missionaries on that issue)!

Bajaboy - 1-16-2015 at 11:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by DENNIS  


In San Juan Capistrano, some of the local decendants despise the man to this day for turning their ancestors into slaves.


The book I am reading now sure exposes how brutal some of the Franciscans were... The Jesuits were totally different and quite kind in comparison to the Franciscans and Dominicans. The worst that the Jesuits may have done is force the men to have only one wife, and for that they were killed (even the women rose up against the missionaries on that issue)!




Is history repeating itself? I wonder how some of today's religions will be judged including many here in the US?!


[Edited on 1-16-2015 by Bajaboy]

DianaT - 1-16-2015 at 01:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DENNIS  


In San Juan Capistrano, some of the local decendants despise the man to this day for turning their ancestors into slaves.


And who can blame them.

This pope has gotten a lot of things right, IMHO --- I really admire him over most of the modern Popes, but celebrating genocide is just wrong. :(:(

David K - 1-16-2015 at 03:38 PM


History shouldn't be ignored or changed because of what happened isn't popular with the current generation, but should be told as best as we can of the events that happened in the past. There is plenty of documentation of good and bad. The missionaries came to save souls and civilize the 'heathens', in their belief... right or wrong. They did not travel (often two or more years) to arrive at a harsh desert land in order to kill anyone. The padres stopped a lot of Indian genocide that was practiced before they baptized the natives. Killing the elderly, babies, handicapped, and enemies was all stopped by the padres.

Don't confuse these history posts as being anything more than sharing about events (good or bad). If you travel to the (Alta) California missions, and meet the people who run them, lecture at them, and sell at the gift shops there, you will discover the Junipero Serra is already a saint in their eyes. Serra himself was likely a decent person, more of an administrator than preacher, but other missionaries have been documented as being brutal.

Max and I (specially Max) try and teach the facts about Serra and the padres... Disproving things like him walking the Camino Real (all missionaries and soldiers rode on horses, mules, or burros, by Royal order), etc.

DianaT - 1-16-2015 at 06:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  

History shouldn't be ignored or changed because of what happened isn't popular with the current generation, but should be told as best as we can of the events that happened in the past. There is plenty of documentation of good and bad. The missionaries came to save souls and civilize the 'heathens', in their belief... right or wrong. They did not travel (often two or more years) to arrive at a harsh desert land in order to kill anyone. The padres stopped a lot of Indian genocide that was practiced before they baptized the natives. Killing the elderly, babies, handicapped, and enemies was all stopped by the padres.

Don't confuse these history posts as being anything more than sharing about events (good or bad). If you travel to the (Alta) California missions, and meet the people who run them, lecture at them, and sell at the gift shops there, you will discover the Junipero Serra is already a saint in their eyes. Serra himself was likely a decent person, more of an administrator than preacher, but other missionaries have been documented as being brutal.

Max and I (specially Max) try and teach the facts about Serra and the padres... Disproving things like him walking the Camino Real (all missionaries and soldiers rode on horses, mules, or burros, by Royal order), etc.


As long as you continue to think that history is the writing of some "facts", you will never write anything close to history --- a very nice tour guide yes, with lots of names, dates, trivia, and the stories according to the bias of the missionaries. History involves a lot more. Try taking just one course sometime, a course in historiography, the history of history and the writing of history. I think, however, those are mainly offered in grad school, but maybe you can find a good text book about historiography and then you might understand, especially understand how biased your reference books are as are ALL history books and writings.

Of course the people at the missions in Alta California LOVE the padre --- it is their bias. Yes, the missionaries came to "save" souls and in the process, they were apart of the genocide. That is not a statement of what is or is not popular today, genocide was the result of their intrusion for whatever reason they came.

I understand why the Pope is doing this because he is a Catholic and a believer that the saving of "souls" was a good thing. As I stated before, I support this Pope in many things he has done in contrast to other modern Popes, but I am sorry to see this happening.

[Edited on 1-17-2015 by DianaT]

Mexitron - 1-16-2015 at 07:47 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by captkw  
2nd miracle ??? what was the first one ???? :?:


Surviving Baja Nomad!


LOL!!!

Mexitron - 1-16-2015 at 07:57 PM

What were the two miracles, just out of curiosity.

David K - 1-17-2015 at 08:40 AM

According to http://www.britannica.com/:

Historiography, the writing of history, especially the writing of history based on the critical examination of sources, the selection of particular details from the authentic materials in those sources, and the synthesis of those details into a narrative that stands the test of critical examination.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what I do... examine the sources, make personal inspections, and write the details.

To make the history more interesting or entertaining, colorful stories are made from some of the facts. Movies, as well.

The re-writing of history is done to achieve a political gain and is quite common, specially in communist nations. Ignoring or lying about the past helps nobody in the end. One should learn from the past to improve the future and if you are not told about mistakes from the past, you are likely to repeat it.

rts551 - 1-17-2015 at 08:48 AM

"stands the test of critical examination"...Guess you can not "stand" it, can you.

David K - 1-17-2015 at 08:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Mexitron  
What were the two miracles, just out of curiosity.


Only one miracle has been documented so far, he needs two. However, an exception may be considered since he was already a Holy man. I am not Catholic, so I only can report what I read...

The first miracle attributed to Junipero Serra was the cure of nun from lupus.

From the Internet:

Serra, the revered and reviled Franciscan priest who founded California's missions, has one officially recognized miracle to his name. A nun in St. Louis was healed of lupus after praying to him, leading to Serra's beatification in 1987.

From the L.A. Times:

But sainthood requires a second miracle, defined by the church as an event that cannot be explained by science but can be attributed to the candidate's intercession from beyond the grave.

Two years ago, Serra advocates thought they had found one. A Denver woman who had prayed to Serra delivered a healthy baby, despite a dire prognosis. The case went to Rome, but physicians for the Vatican concluded it was not a miracle.

Now there's another possibility. Sheila E. Lichacz, a Panamanian artist, has survived 14 brain surgeries for tumors called meningiomas, after being told time and again that she was dying. One-third of her skull was removed in surgery and replaced with acrylic plates. But they too were removed after causing life-threatening infections.

Now a large part of her brain is covered not by bone or plates, but only by flesh.

Yet at 66, she is exuberant and stylish. On a recent trip to Santa Barbara to confer with priests about her medical history, she wore a brilliant blue pantsuit with matching hat and turban, heavy silver chains and a black leather belt of her own design studded with 13 silver crucifixes. Her words tumble out in a cascade of religious fervor.

"Have you ever seen anything like this?" asks Lichacz, who still has four benign tumors in her head. "Have you? Brain surgery for 45 years? Blessed Junipero -- that poor man, he needs me. He gave it all, I'm telling you, and -- I'm not bragging -- I'm giving it all too."

Whether her story will reach the Vatican is an open question. The process of discerning miracles is grindingly meticulous and has become even more demanding as science explains once-mysterious phenomena.

DianaT - 1-17-2015 at 10:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
According to http://www.britannica.com/:

Historiography, the writing of history, especially the writing of history based on the critical examination of sources, the selection of particular details from the authentic materials in those sources, and the synthesis of those details into a narrative that stands the test of critical examination.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what I do... examine the sources, make personal inspections, and write the details.

To make the history more interesting or entertaining, colorful stories are made from some of the facts. Movies, as well.

The re-writing of history is done to achieve a political gain and is quite common, specially in communist nations. Ignoring or lying about the past helps nobody in the end. One should learn from the past to improve the future and if you are not told about mistakes from the past, you are likely to repeat it.



Once again you have chosen the simple definition and simple answer. But to remain ignorant is your choice. You will probably never understand what history is as you have chosen to hang on to simplicity. Then again, as Mark Twain said,

"To succeed in life, you need two things; ignorance and confidence."

We are are ignorant about many things, and all of us have things about which we truly don't care to seek knowledge. One of your things just happens to be the nature of history.

On edit --- please remember that facts in history are limited to yes, an event took place, the date it took place, and who was involved. That is it! The why is the complicated part and is never totally factual--- it is full of bias, perspective, and interpretation. To believe that the why is a fact just because it was written back then is ignorant. It is like saying that because Faux News reported something, it is a "fact". And that simple definition of historiography just scratches the surface.




[Edited on 1-17-2015 by DianaT]

David K - 1-17-2015 at 01:24 PM

I sure can see why you are not a teacher any more. Why so much hate? Life is too short to be angry all the time.

vgabndo - 1-17-2015 at 01:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
I sure can see why you are not a teacher any more. Why so much hate? Life is too short to be angry all the time.


Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them angry. Each person who stands and claims to be an historian, a claim I have made, will be judged by how they present their research. I have read professional work which suggested that an historian's work must take a point of view and argue for it's truth. In the field of history, in my judgement, to do so would require a more complete education than I possess, even though I will claim to be the living authority on certain "micro-history".

In this case, I look at an author who is an open 'human caused climate change denier' and make the judgement that I would never trust his opinion on a less serious subject. That isn't hate or anger; it is discrimination.

Pompano - 1-17-2015 at 02:07 PM



The handwriting on the wall may be a forgery. (You must think about it.)

Christianity, sainthood and the history being taught in our modern schools? I am not a believer, except in the traits of common courtesy and respect for another. The history of today is just that...'todays' version as somebody wants you to perceive it.

[Edited on 1-17-2015 by Pompano]

rts551 - 1-17-2015 at 02:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by vgabndo  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
I sure can see why you are not a teacher any more. Why so much hate? Life is too short to be angry all the time.


Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them angry. Each person who stands and claims to be an historian, a claim I have made, will be judged by how they present their research. I have read professional work which suggested that an historian's work must take a point of view and argue for it's truth. In the field of history, in my judgement, to do so would require a more complete education than I possess, even though I will claim to be the living authority on certain "micro-history".

In this case, I look at an author who is an open 'human caused climate change denier' and make the judgement that I would never trust his opinion on a less serious subject. That isn't hate or anger; it is discrimination.


The easiest defense for someone without fact or reasoning is to attack the other person personally. Thus the "I sure can see why you are not a teacher any more. Why so much hate? Life is too short to be angry all the time."
Next will be the claim he is only here for love and to help others. jejeje

sargentodiaz - 1-17-2015 at 02:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by captkw  
2nd miracle ??? what was the first one ???? :?:


There was one "verifiable" miracle. There have been a multitude of reports of other miracles.

The common one is encountering a small home with a family made up of a man, woman, and a little baby. Father Serra and his two companions stopped there, were fed and given a place to sleep.

Other wayfarers claimed the road had no habitations in that area.

He is also reported to have several cases where near death patients miraculously recovered after his ministrations.

Santo Junipero

sargentodiaz - 1-17-2015 at 02:48 PM

I have no idea what's going on but it won't take my post!

[Edited on 1-17-2015 by sargentodiaz]

David K - 1-17-2015 at 02:51 PM

Dale, if there are any accent marks or an n with the snake over it, it won't post on Nomad (a temporary issues the web host assures us). Remove any such non-English marks and try again.

DianaT - 1-17-2015 at 05:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by soulpatch  
It's all business.


And always has been.

Quote: Originally posted by vgabndo  


Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them angry. Each person who stands and claims to be an historian, a claim I have made, will be judged by how they present their research. I have read professional work which suggested that an historian's work must take a point of view and argue for it's truth. In the field of history, in my judgement, to do so would require a more complete education than I possess, even though I will claim to be the living authority on certain "micro-history".

In this case, I look at an author who is an open 'human caused climate change denier' and make the judgement that I would never trust his opinion on a less serious subject. That isn't hate or anger; it is discrimination.


Yes, all history writings have a thesis either overt or implied. That cannot be avoided. And a good historian is aware of that and tries to avoid working only to prove a working thesis, but to remain open enough to change. But they are also aware that being "absolutely" objective is simply not humanly possible. And they know that everything they read is biased and has a point of view.

A simple example would be a "factual" history of something like the Rebellion of the Colonies, aka The War of Independence, aka The American revolution would read something like this. ( Historians can't even agree on what to call it because of the implications in the title. )

Facts
After there were open violent hostilities between the colonies and England, in 1776 some colonists declared independence.
Then there would be a list of the battles and their dates and who won which battle
Then there was The Treaty of Paris in 1783 and 13 of the colonies became no longer colonies.

End of factual history. Facts are the Who, What, When and Where part of the 5 Ws --- and the Why is what is never objective. The same would be true for strictly factual history of the missions of California. If there is a why stuck in there, it is biased and has a point of view that can be disputed.


It was a great day for hiking in the Sierra Nevada --- Convict Lake is always beautiful. Actually, it should be covered with snow around there and we hope that will happen SOON.

BTW- to be ignorant is to be human. I chose to remain ignorant about nuclear physics, and many other things.

On edit --- IMHO, declaring people SAINTS is kind of silly, and this one is just really distastefull.


[Edited on 1-18-2015 by DianaT]

elgatoloco - 1-18-2015 at 09:59 AM

It's the year 2015 and we are talking about "verifiable miracles". Not sure whether to laugh or cry. WTF.

I did like what the Pope had to say about man made climate change. Now if he would just evolve on birth control. :rolleyes:

DianaT - 1-18-2015 at 10:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by elgatoloco  
It's the year 2015 and we are talking about "verifiable miracles". Not sure whether to laugh or cry. WTF.

I did like what the Pope had to say about man made climate change. Now if he would just evolve on birth control. :rolleyes:


Laughing and crying both seem rather appropriate.

Ateo - 1-18-2015 at 10:08 AM

elgatoloco sums up my stance on this.

There have been no "verifiable miracles" - EVER. If there were, everyone would know and there would be no doubt.

This is all business, like what was stated above already.

DENNIS - 1-18-2015 at 10:48 AM


Awwww, c'mon...let the church play it's games. The looney libs made a saint out of Obama a long time ago and no one here said anything.
Everything will be alright.

Pompano - 1-18-2015 at 10:50 AM

Christianity - miracles - canonizing - Atheism - critics - scoffers. Easy targets all.

Thanks for providing entertainment through the favorite pastime of humanity...



sargentodiaz - 1-18-2015 at 11:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Dale, if there are any accent marks or an n with the snake over it, it won't post on Nomad (a temporary issues the web host assures us). Remove any such non-English marks and try again.


Seems to have been the problem. Will try the post again - removed the ones I could find.

Santo Junipero

sargentodiaz - 1-18-2015 at 11:09 AM

I give up. It's been posted elsewhere.

[Edited on 1-18-2015 by sargentodiaz]

bufeo - 1-18-2015 at 11:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Pompano  
Christianity - miracles - canonizing - Atheism - critics - scoffers. Easy targets all.

Thanks for providing entertainment through the favorite pastime of humanity...


Why doesn't this forum have a "Like" button? :bounce:

Great post, Pompano. Great post.

Allen R

David K - 1-18-2015 at 11:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by sargentodiaz  
I give up. It's been posted elsewhere.

[Edited on 1-18-2015 by sargentodiaz]


You can post the link to the location of the other forum post here Dale. Doug may be able to post it here as he has with other pasted text attempts.

Mexitron - 1-18-2015 at 12:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
elgatoloco sums up my stance on this.

There have been no "verifiable miracles" - EVER. If there were, everyone would know and there would be no doubt.

This is all business, like what was stated above already.


Geezuz isn't being alive a miracle?!

DENNIS - 1-18-2015 at 12:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Mexitron  

Geezuz isn't being alive a miracle?!


It is for me.

[Edited on 1-18-2015 by BajaNomad]

Natalie Ann - 1-18-2015 at 12:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DENNIS  
Quote: Originally posted by Mexitron  

Geezuz isn't being alive a miracle?!


It is for me.



Me too, amigo, me too.

Nena


[Edited on 1-18-2015 by BajaNomad]

total BS

captkw - 1-18-2015 at 12:37 PM

this church has done more crime to the planet than all world wars combined...IMO..put that in your pipe and smoke it !!!

Roo RO

captkw - 1-18-2015 at 12:40 PM

WTF ??

Natalie ANN

captkw - 1-18-2015 at 12:50 PM

HOla,,What a Sweet Name !!

Natalie Ann - 1-18-2015 at 01:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by captkw  
HOla,,What a Sweet Name !!



Thank you. It IS a nice name (thanks Mom).
Means The Gift. :dudette:

Nena


Ateo - 1-18-2015 at 04:27 PM

Atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist.

It does not mean to scoff or criticize. =)

We just don't buy the claims of the believers.

Christianity asserts many things. Things like talking snakes, global floods, water to wine, miracles, etc....

Thanks for stirring the pot Pompano.

This website is full of atheists when it comes to any other god other than Yahweh.

Or maybe I'm wrong, and Nomads believe in Allah, Thor, Zeus, Vishnu?

Have a good day all. I sleep in on Sundays...........

And Dennis, I know of very few liberals who think Obama is a saint. Most are unhappy with him. I know I am.



[Edited on 1-18-2015 by Ateo]

willardguy - 1-18-2015 at 04:33 PM

miracles? S E A H A W K S

Ateo - 1-18-2015 at 04:35 PM

Yep, and was that Russell Wilson guy thanking God for his team's win? Classic. He should've asked him why he made him throw 4 interceptions.

[Edited on 1-18-2015 by Ateo]

David K - 1-18-2015 at 05:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by willardguy  
miracles? S E A H A W K S


Wow what a game! Holy Moley!:o

rts551 - 2-8-2015 at 08:55 AM

Not everyone believes Serra was a saint. Of course this was not what we were taught 50 years ago.


http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-serra-canonizati...

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/291149561.html

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988-05-22/news/880101022...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/27/junipero-serra-pope...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/25/pope-francis-ju...

woody with a view - 2-8-2015 at 09:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  

Or maybe I'm wrong, and Nomads believe in Allah, Thor, Zeus, Vishnu?
[Edited on 1-18-2015 by Ateo]


what happened the the one and only god? Neptune is his name!

Mexitron - 2-8-2015 at 10:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by woody with a view  
Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  

Or maybe I'm wrong, and Nomads believe in Allah, Thor, Zeus, Vishnu?
[Edited on 1-18-2015 by Ateo]


what happened the the one and only god? Neptune is his name!


Yah!

Ken Bondy - 2-8-2015 at 01:30 PM

I think, for the future of humanity, religion must be criticized and ridiculed at every opportunity, and this is certainly a fertile opportunity :)

rts551 - 2-8-2015 at 05:38 PM

bump

Cisco - 2-8-2015 at 06:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
elgatoloco sums up my stance on this.

There have been no "verifiable miracles" - EVER. If there were, everyone would know and there would be no doubt.

This is all business, like what was stated above already.


What does not exist is more difficult to prove than what does exist.

Ateo - 2-8-2015 at 07:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cisco  
Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
elgatoloco sums up my stance on this.

There have been no "verifiable miracles" - EVER. If there were, everyone would know and there would be no doubt.

This is all business, like what was stated above already.


What does not exist is more difficult to prove than what does exist.



Ha, and you can't prove there's not a large Dominoes Pizza orbiting Pluto! :LOL::lol:



[Edited on 2-9-2015 by Ateo]

bajabuddha - 2-9-2015 at 12:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by woody with a view  

what happened the the one and only god? Neptune is his name!


HIS NAME IS ANDY MURPHY.

First and foremost, we know god is an Irishman who originally invented whiskey so his Irish didn't ultimately didn't control the world.

We know his Holy Name is of the Murphy Clan, because of the ultimate and indisputable "Murphy's Law" correlation:
"#1 - Nothing is as easy as it looks".
#2 - Everything takes longer than it should"
#3 - If anything CAN go wrong, it will... AND AT THE WORST POSSSIBLE MOMENT".

We can also now postulate his first name is 'Andy' from the songs that were taught in parochial schools and church hymns:

"Andy walks with me, Andy talks with me........."

HENCE, Andy Murphy.



[Edited on 2-9-2015 by BajaNomad]

around here !!

captkw - 2-9-2015 at 07:45 AM

Be Avised that around here (carmel,monterey area) this is not going over well...he is looked at for killing many and running the "church's" BS...that said,,I was not there myself...But, as I understand the then locals that were fine,happy,peaceful loving folks had to bowdown to a powerful new white order of life..BTW...all history books are written by white men..go figure !!...LOL what a joke !!

monoloco - 2-9-2015 at 07:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
According to http://www.britannica.com/:

Historiography, the writing of history, especially the writing of history based on the critical examination of sources, the selection of particular details from the authentic materials in those sources, and the synthesis of those details into a narrative that stands the test of critical examination.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what I do... examine the sources, make personal inspections, and write the details.

To make the history more interesting or entertaining, colorful stories are made from some of the facts. Movies, as well.

The re-writing of history is done to achieve a political gain and is quite common, specially in communist nations. Ignoring or lying about the past helps nobody in the end. One should learn from the past to improve the future and if you are not told about mistakes from the past, you are likely to repeat it.

History is written by the victors, unfortunately, the indigenous never had a chance to chronicle events from their perspective, so the actual history will always remain incomplete.

well said mono

captkw - 2-9-2015 at 08:01 AM

LOL,just turned on the AM KSCO (awesome) and some PHD was talking about this guy...btw PHD means ..post hole digger...anyhow...the church and missions were a way to take over and control....plain and simple..........................

David K - 2-9-2015 at 09:24 AM

The Spanish used the Church to advance colonization of the New World and Asia. Religion was everything... well that and GOLD!

sargentodiaz - 2-9-2015 at 12:14 PM

Reading threads like this truly sadden me.

So much misinformation. And anger.

Over what?

A religious organization follows its beliefs and finds a historical figure worthy of being noted for his activities.

And people go gaga over it!

What do they get out of it? It won't change the decision. And many, many members of that religion will be pleased with it.

Sigh.

quik reply

captkw - 2-9-2015 at 01:08 PM

When you have done the "El camino real" and its missions you would know more of the story....otherwise your doomed to a sick history account..DK knows a lot about this as do I............

What religion is based on is [u]Faith[/u].

toneart - 2-9-2015 at 01:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cisco  
Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
elgatoloco sums up my stance on this.

There have been no "verifiable miracles" - EVER. If there were, everyone would know and there would be no doubt.

This is all business, like what was stated above already.


What does not exist is more difficult to prove than what does exist.



Our dilemma is: Since childhood we are told that having Faith is the only way to get to Heaven. Otherwise, we are condemned to Hell. OK! I tried that when I was young and impressionable and my critical thinking skills were not fully mature.

I went along with it until I was the recipient of child abuse by these hypocrites (on a boy's ranch). :fire: Then, I grew up and continued observing the behavior of our institutional leaders, government leaders, religious leaders and fallible human beings in general.

A more realistic approach would be to live by the principles of Love, Humanism with maybe some Buddhism; it is all good! To serve mankind here on earth, it seems to me, will produce its own rewards. The beneficiaries are certainly those whom you serve!...and perhaps your own Karma...who knows? That leaves you free to serve full time instead of redeeming yourselves by going to Church and praying for redemption and then going out into the world the rest of the time and lead ignorant, stupid, offensive lives. The time is Here and Now! Not some promise of an eternal afterlife if only you believe.

And don't spew Evangelical dogma or wave a Bible in my face It is an allegorical book of tales written by so called,"inspired" people in many different times.

My conclusion is: to live my life the best that I can in spite of my fallibilities. to serve others...and think Love. Go deep and reflect. Do not support any form of aggression. Maybe there is an Afterlife...who knows? I don't doubt the possibility of anything. Hey! If there is, I want to go.

So, what is the basis upon which we are to to cast our hope for Eternal Life? Blind Faith? I don't think so. We are to be joyful about the canonization of Junipero Serra? I don't think so! :no::no:

Cisco - 2-9-2015 at 04:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by toneart  
Quote: Originally posted by Cisco  
Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
elgatoloco sums up my stance on this.

There have been no "verifiable miracles" - EVER. If there were, everyone would know and there would be no doubt.

This is all business, like what was stated above already.


What does not exist is more difficult to prove than what does exist.



Our dilemma is: Since childhood we are told that having Faith is the only way to get to Heaven. Otherwise, we are condemned to Hell. OK! I tried that when I was young and impressionable and my critical thinking skills were not fully mature.

I went along with it until I was the recipient of child abuse by these hypocrites (on a boy's ranch). :fire: Then, I grew up and continued observing the behavior of our institutional leaders, government leaders, religious leaders and fallible human beings in general.

A more realistic approach would be to live by the principles of Love, Humanism with maybe some Buddhism; it is all good! To serve mankind here on earth, it seems to me, will produce its own rewards. The beneficiaries are certainly those whom you serve!...and perhaps your own Karma...who knows? That leaves you free to serve full time instead of redeeming yourselves by going to Church and praying for redemption and then going out into the world the rest of the time and lead ignorant, stupid, offensive lives. The time is Here and Now! Not some promise of an eternal afterlife if only you believe.

And don't spew Evangelical dogma or wave a Bible in my face It is an allegorical book of tales written by so called,"inspired" people in many different times.

My conclusion is: to live my life the best that I can in spite of my fallibilities. to serve others...and think Love. Go deep and reflect. Do not support any form of aggression. Maybe there is an Afterlife...who knows? I don't doubt the possibility of anything. Hey! If there is, I want to go.

So, what is the basis upon which we are to to cast our hope for Eternal Life? Blind Faith? I don't think so. We are to be joyful about the canonization of Junipero Serra? I don't think so! :no::no:


Hi Tony. Good post, connects with me very personally as I was born into sin and my mother would walk us kids over to the Mission for mass, that was during Bishop Buddy's time.

The San Diego River could be high, chest high for a little kid, but we went.

Many stories of my time at the Mission and the orphanage adjacent to it but one that I remember so clearly was the tunnel from the Mission to a fortification of sorts at the river down below.

The local Indians still came into the valley to mine the oak trees and I asked about this. Was told that the tunnel was dug to get water to the mission when the Indian attacks took place. They were severely treated and would war against the invaders.

Sorry I cannot add emphasis to my comments, the machine will not post with them.

There also was a flume built by the Indians from Mission Dam to the Mission. I would ride my scooter up the flume to the dam, leave it there and go hunt Spring and Quail canyons for deer.

For your soul Tony, not a religious statement, watch "Baraka", saw it yesterday, I watch it at least once a year along with "Why has Bodhi Dharma left for the East". Subtitled in English. Baraka has no spoken words, just the beauty of the World.



[Edited on 2-9-2015 by Cisco]

Barry A. - 2-9-2015 at 05:16 PM

To me what you (Cisco, ToneArt, Ateo, et al) reflect is extreme gullibility coupled with anger in your youth, and mind-boggling resentment and, again anger, in your older age, neither being a very wise, logical, or positive reaction to "life" to my way of thinking.

I don't recall ever experiencing any of that, but perhaps I purposely forget the "bad", the "evil", and the misfortune?!?!?! I grew up in a single-Mom household, and she was seldom home, often out of the Country, and we had little money--------so what (?)---------it was no big deal and just the way it was. Actually, I seldom even thought about it. I just got on with life, learning what worked for me in keeping me out of trouble with my fellow man, but yet prospering and learning what I thought I needed to know to be happy, and make others close to me happy. That worked for me, and mine.

Most of the stuff you write about just bewilders me, but I don't think I really WANT to understand most of it since it appears to produce such anger and resentment in each of you.

To each his own.

Carry on.

Barry

Ateo - 2-9-2015 at 05:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
To me what you (Cisco, ToneArt, Ateo, et al) reflect is extreme gullibility coupled with anger in your youth, and mind-boggling resentment and, again anger, in your older age, neither being a very wise, logical, or positive reaction to "life" to my way of thinking.




You are totally wrong in your assessment of me. Too many things wrong with your statement and I'm not gonna spend the time typing a rebuttal on my phone.

If I wrote something so horribly incorrect about your I would hope you would ask for a an apology. :?::?::?:

[Edited on 2-10-2015 by Ateo]

Cisco - 2-9-2015 at 05:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
To me what you (Cisco, ToneArt, Ateo, et al) reflect is extreme gullibility coupled with anger in your youth, and mind-boggling resentment and, again anger, in your older age, neither being a very wise, logical, or positive reaction to "life" to my way of thinking.

I don't recall ever experiencing any of that, but perhaps I purposely forget the "bad", the "evil", and the misfortune?!?!?! I grew up in a single-Mom household, and she was seldom home, often out of the Country, and we had little money--------so what (?)---------it was no big deal and just the way it was. Actually, I seldom even thought about it. I just got on with life, learning what worked for me in keeping me out of trouble with my fellow man, but yet prospering and learning what I thought I needed to know to be happy, and make others close to me happy. That worked for me, and mine.

Most of the stuff you write about just bewilders me, but I don't think I really WANT to understand most of it since it appears to produce such anger and resentment in each of you.

To each his own.

Carry on.

Barry




Barry, what are you talking about?

What anger do you see in my above post?

The only connection that I can make regarding myself, Tony and Jon is that
we are without belief in a deity.

What's up?

Skipjack Joe - 2-9-2015 at 05:57 PM

My first wife was a saint. I worshipped her. But no miracle could save our marriage.

Barry A. - 2-9-2015 at 05:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
To me what you (Cisco, ToneArt, Ateo, et al) reflect is extreme gullibility coupled with anger in your youth, and mind-boggling resentment and, again anger, in your older age, neither being a very wise, logical, or positive reaction to "life" to my way of thinking.




You are wrong in your assessment of me. So many things wrong with this statement and Im not gonna spend the time typing a rebuttal on my phone. If I wrote something so horribly wrong about your character I would hope you would ask for a an apology.


What I wrote, Ateo, is just my impression, not necessarily the truth. I would NOT ask anybody for "an apology" for speaking what they thought to be true, but when inclined I will defend my self. If I offended you, then I do apologize-----it was not my intention to offend, just to reflect my honest conclusions based on what you occasionally write. I am pretty sure you feel similar about some (or all?) of my thoughts.

Barry

Barry A. - 2-9-2015 at 06:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cisco  
Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
To me what you (Cisco, ToneArt, Ateo, et al) reflect is extreme gullibility coupled with anger in your youth, and mind-boggling resentment and, again anger, in your older age, neither being a very wise, logical, or positive reaction to "life" to my way of thinking.

I don't recall ever experiencing any of that, but perhaps I purposely forget the "bad", the "evil", and the misfortune?!?!?! I grew up in a single-Mom household, and she was seldom home, often out of the Country, and we had little money--------so what (?)---------it was no big deal and just the way it was. Actually, I seldom even thought about it. I just got on with life, learning what worked for me in keeping me out of trouble with my fellow man, but yet prospering and learning what I thought I needed to know to be happy, and make others close to me happy. That worked for me, and mine.

Most of the stuff you write about just bewilders me, but I don't think I really WANT to understand most of it since it appears to produce such anger and resentment in each of you.

To each his own.

Carry on.

Barry




Barry, what are you talking about?

What anger do you see in my above post?

The only connection that I can make regarding myself, Tony and Jon is that
we are without belief in a deity.

What's up?



You guys in particular seem to put forth so much negative feelings and criticism of all things Conservative, Religious, American, etc. etc. that I probably over-reacted out of frustration that people actually do feel the way you guys do-------it just boggles my mind!!!

Again, it was not my intention to "offend", just to reflect my frustration and bewilderment with where you appear (to me) to be coming from.

Nothing personal was meant----hope none is taken.

Barry

David K - 2-9-2015 at 06:10 PM

It is really sad how negative things have become in the past 6 or so years. We are losing so much hope and faith in the things that used to bring us together as a nation. We are far more divided and polarized. I long for an administration that unites our country instead of dividing, grouping, 'special interesting' everyone.

rts551 - 2-9-2015 at 06:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
It is really sad how negative things have become in the past 6 or so years. We are losing so much hope and faith in the things that used to bring us together as a nation. We are far more divided and polarized. I long for an administration that unites our country instead of dividing, grouping, 'special interesting' everyone.


I believe there is a Congress that does a pretty good job of putting their foot down and not compromising. They do a pretty well at dividing, grouping and (sic) 'special interesting' everyone.

rts551 - 2-9-2015 at 06:20 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
Quote: Originally posted by Cisco  
Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
To me what you (Cisco, ToneArt, Ateo, et al) reflect is extreme gullibility coupled with anger in your youth, and mind-boggling resentment and, again anger, in your older age, neither being a very wise, logical, or positive reaction to "life" to my way of thinking.

I don't recall ever experiencing any of that, but perhaps I purposely forget the "bad", the "evil", and the misfortune?!?!?! I grew up in a single-Mom household, and she was seldom home, often out of the Country, and we had little money--------so what (?)---------it was no big deal and just the way it was. Actually, I seldom even thought about it. I just got on with life, learning what worked for me in keeping me out of trouble with my fellow man, but yet prospering and learning what I thought I needed to know to be happy, and make others close to me happy. That worked for me, and mine.

Most of the stuff you write about just bewilders me, but I don't think I really WANT to understand most of it since it appears to produce such anger and resentment in each of you.

To each his own.

Carry on.

Barry




Barry, what are you talking about?

What anger do you see in my above post?

The only connection that I can make regarding myself, Tony and Jon is that
we are without belief in a deity.

What's up?



You guys in particular seem to put forth so much negative feelings and criticism of all things Conservative, Religious, American, etc. etc. that I probably over-reacted out of frustration that people actually do feel the way you guys do-------it just boggles my mind!!!

Again, it was not my intention to "offend", just to reflect my frustration and bewilderment with where you appear (to me) to be coming from.

Nothing personal was meant----hope none is taken.

Barry


Why would you expect everyone to agree with you Barry? After all, the fight over religion and politics (don't understand American) has been going on forever.

Cisco - 2-9-2015 at 06:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
Quote: Originally posted by Cisco  
Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
To me what you (Cisco, ToneArt, Ateo, et al) reflect is extreme gullibility coupled with anger in your youth, and mind-boggling resentment and, again anger, in your older age, neither being a very wise, logical, or positive reaction to "life" to my way of thinking.

I don't recall ever experiencing any of that, but perhaps I purposely forget the "bad", the "evil", and the misfortune?!?!?! I grew up in a single-Mom household, and she was seldom home, often out of the Country, and we had little money--------so what (?)---------it was no big deal and just the way it was. Actually, I seldom even thought about it. I just got on with life, learning what worked for me in keeping me out of trouble with my fellow man, but yet prospering and learning what I thought I needed to know to be happy, and make others close to me happy. That worked for me, and mine.

Most of the stuff you write about just bewilders me, but I don't think I really WANT to understand most of it since it appears to produce such anger and resentment in each of you.

To each his own.

Carry on.

Barry




Barry, what are you talking about?

What anger do you see in my above post?

The only connection that I can make regarding myself, Tony and Jon is that
we are without belief in a deity.

What's up?



You guys in particular seem to put forth so much negative feelings and criticism of all things Conservative, Religious, American, etc. etc. that I probably over-reacted out of frustration that people actually do feel the way you guys do-------it just boggles my mind!!!

Again, it was not my intention to "offend", just to reflect my frustration and bewilderment with where you appear (to me) to be coming from.

Nothing personal was meant----hope none is taken.

Barry


"I will defend my self."

Barry what are you defending yourself against?

You seem to have a lot on your plate that is coming through as something else. Whatever it is you may skip "our" posts and perhaps you will feel better.

In reviewing the thread I see nothing that would offend a normal person or anything regarding gullibility with the exception of childhood innocence which was certainly being abused by the religious community at that time.

I will not speak to my feelings regarding your posts with the exception that you just dropped a notch in my estimation of you, and, sorry Barry, I really don't care what your estimation of myself is. As you mentioned once before we live in different universe's and I'm fine with that.

Sorry your feelings got out of control, happens to us all at one point or another.

Ateo - 2-9-2015 at 07:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
I am pretty sure you feel similar about some (or all?) of my thoughts.

Barry


Not sure what this means. I actually think you are one of the sane people on here that can argue without character assassinations. When I read that I was "gullible and angry" I was like, WHAT THE HELL IS HE TALKING ABOUT? Nothing could be further from the truth.

I was raised in a loving environment and my lack of gullibility is what made me question what I was being told about Jesus being my lord and personal saviour at the age of 14. This led to an honest evaluation of the claims of Christianity, and later to the claims of other religions. Gullible is something I've never really been.

And angry in my old age? I'm 39.

Day in, day out, I'm a loving, chill dude. I don't go around yelling at people due to anger issues.

When it comes to religion, yeah, I can get angry. Who wouldn't be angry at the horrific atrocities religion has committed on this world? How many gay kids have committed suicide because of the evil program that has been placed in the minds of their parents that tells them their kids are an abomination?

Was that a run on sentence?

I'm off the soap box.

Skipjack Joe - 2-9-2015 at 09:51 PM

Morality is a social concept. There is no right or wrong outside of what a group of people agree to believe is right or wrong. Our contemporary world is not as isolated as it used to be and same values are now pretty much accepted everywhere. But older cultures often had values completely different than others. it's hard for a European to comprehend how human sacrifice, removing a beating heart from an individual, could be seen as positive. Yet it was. Pharaoh burials that included all of his living wives is another example. In the Polynesian islands a young man was taught sexual gratification by his mothers sister before marriage. That was considered a social responsibility. The fascinating list is endless.

So we know that morality varies both between cultures and within a culture over time.

Given that fact what good does it do to judge historical actions by the values we have now. Junipero Serra is being 'crucified' for performing acts which in his time were considered laudable. How did he know that mankind would change it's mind. And you know what? This is not the end of the road. Our values will some day be villified and ridiculed as we are doing now. It's an endless journey with no compass that points to true north. That's the nature of morality.

Consider this. We utilize all living things for our own benefit. We grow animals purely for our own needs. Raise them, fatten them up, and slaughter them for food. We bring them into the world only for our needs. And that goes for virtually the entire planet. Fish are being farmed. Land is cleared of land and plants to suit our needs. If all living things have a right for life then something is wrong with this picture. All men are created equal but nothing else is?

So I can see how in the distant future our generation will be accused of being barbaric.

But really, morals are a waste of time to spend time on. They are only valuable in facilitating a society to make it interact smoothly. If everyone's on the same page we have less friction. It's the grease that helps the machine run smoothly. Period. There is nothing further that morality provides.

[Edited on 2-10-2015 by Skipjack Joe]

toneart - 2-9-2015 at 09:52 PM

Barry! I am really surprised and disappointed in your broad brush depiction of the four of us. I thought you were more objective than that.

It is absolutely beyond my comprehension that you could read my post and not see anything but Love and service to Humanity. I know I expressed that well. Yes, I do express skepticism of Religion but I also leave judgment open because "who knows?"

It contains no negativity other than the experience I underwent as a child. Contrary to the fate of most of the other boys on that ranch, who either went to prison or died young, it made me stronger of character. That experience produced a positive, loving adult who observed the horrible, abusive, Evangelical hypocrites and vowed to NEVER be like them. That is so apparent in my post!

You know this about me Barry: Through private conversations, you learned about my local volunteering with Hospice; being on the Board of Directors of the local Arts Council; expressing love and joy though my visual art, Jazz trumpet playing and writing. The feedback from performing validates what it is that I put out.

Mulegeneos were aware of all the contributions I made to the Mulege locals after devastating floods, through the Rotary and by contributions through Engineer Mike.

Some Nomads and Antonio (Baja Cactus) is aware of the various donations I made to his calls for help; the little girl who needed a heart transplant; the woman's family who was shot and killed in her own restaurant in El Rosario. I did not know them. That is called compassion. This is what Liberals do! We experience or observe the tragedies in our world (the negatives, which we can't stand) and turn that around to do what we can to help (the positives).

You don't ever have to agree with me, but your blast was not about agreement or debate. It was about your perception of (through misreading) my points and projecting your own negativity. I guess Money is a God to some. :rolleyes:

[Edited on 2-10-2015 by toneart]

woody with a view - 2-9-2015 at 10:12 PM

if I need something to believe in I believe i'll go surf. then I believe i'll have a beer!

the bible is based on a bunch of campfire stories told for thousands of years on trying to be a better example of a human. nothing wrong with that. resurrections, water to wine, devils? SERIOUSLY?

this song sums it up pretty well:

by XTC:

Dear God, hope You got the letter
And I pray You can make it better down here
I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer
But all the people that You made in Your image
See them starving on their feet
'Cause they don't get enough to eat
From God, I can't believe in You

Dear God, sorry to disturb You
But I feel that I should be heard loud and clear
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears
And all the people that You made in Your image
See them fighting in the street
'Cause they can't make opinions meet
About God, I can't believe in You

Did You make disease, and the diamond blue?
Did You make mankind after we made You?
And the devil too

Dear God, don't know if You noticed
But Your name is on a lot of quotes in this book
Us crazy humans wrote it, You should take a look
And all the people that You made in Your image
Still believing that junk is true
Well I know it ain't and so do You
Dear God, I can't believe in, I don't believe in

I won't believe in Heaven and Hell
No saints, no sinners, no devil as well
No pearly gates, no thorny crown
You're always letting us humans down

The wars You bring, the babes You drown
Those lost at sea and never found
And it's the same the whole world 'round
The hurt I see helps to compound

That the Father, Son and Holy Ghost
Is just somebody's unholy hoax
And if You're up there You'll perceive
That my heart's here upon my sleeve
If there's one thing I don't believe in

It's You, dear God

Mexitron - 2-10-2015 at 03:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Morality is a social concept. There is no right or wrong outside of what a group of people agree to believe is right or wrong. Our contemporary world is not as isolated as it used to be and same values are now pretty much accepted everywhere. But older cultures often had values completely different than others. it's hard for a European to comprehend how human sacrifice, removing a beating heart from an individual, could be seen as positive. Yet it was. Pharaoh burials that included all of his living wives is another example. In the Polynesian islands a young man was taught sexual gratification by his mothers sister before marriage. That was considered a social responsibility. The fascinating list is endless.

So we know that morality varies both between cultures and within a culture over time.

Given that fact what good does it do to judge historical actions by the values we have now. Junipero Serra is being 'crucified' for performing acts which in his time were considered laudable. How did he know that mankind would change it's mind. And you know what? This is not the end of the road. Our values will some day be villified and ridiculed as we are doing now. It's an endless journey with no compass that points to true north. That's the nature of morality.

Consider this. We utilize all living things for our own benefit. We grow animals purely for our own needs. Raise them, fatten them up, and slaughter them for food. We bring them into the world only for our needs. And that goes for virtually the entire planet. Fish are being farmed. Land is cleared of land and plants to suit our needs. If all living things have a right for life then something is wrong with this picture. All men are created equal but nothing else is?

So I can see how in the distant future our generation will be accused of being barbaric.

But really, morals are a waste of time to spend time on. They are only valuable in facilitating a society to make it interact smoothly. If everyone's on the same page we have less friction. It's the grease that helps the machine run smoothly. Period. There is nothing further that morality provides.

[Edited on 2-10-2015 by Skipjack Joe]


Beautifully said, and, snicker, very Taoist if I may say (if you've read the I Ching its truths are as stark). Good and bad are just that in the big picture, they both interact to allow "the play".

Ateo - 2-10-2015 at 08:53 AM

Woody, always loved that song, although I considered it blasphemous and evil when I was growing up. Glad I got past that..........

And yep Skipjack, morality is a social concept.

Always fun to imagine the morals of the year 2500. I'm sure we will look back and be horrified that we were eating animals. I'm guilty.

That's if we can make it another 500 years.

DianaT - 2-10-2015 at 09:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Morality is a social concept. There is no right or wrong outside of what a group of people agree to believe is right or wrong. Our contemporary world is not as isolated as it used to be and same values are now pretty much accepted everywhere. But older cultures often had values completely different than others. it's hard for a European to comprehend how human sacrifice, removing a beating heart from an individual, could be seen as positive. Yet it was. Pharaoh burials that included all of his living wives is another example. In the Polynesian islands a young man was taught sexual gratification by his mothers sister before marriage. That was considered a social responsibility. The fascinating list is endless.

So we know that morality varies both between cultures and within a culture over time.

Given that fact what good does it do to judge historical actions by the values we have now. Junipero Serra is being 'crucified' for performing acts which in his time were considered laudable. How did he know that mankind would change it's mind. And you know what? This is not the end of the road. Our values will some day be villified and ridiculed as we are doing now. It's an endless journey with no compass that points to true north. That's the nature of morality.

Consider this. We utilize all living things for our own benefit. We grow animals purely for our own needs. Raise them, fatten them up, and slaughter them for food. We bring them into the world only for our needs. And that goes for virtually the entire planet. Fish are being farmed. Land is cleared of land and plants to suit our needs. If all living things have a right for life then something is wrong with this picture. All men are created equal but nothing else is?

So I can see how in the distant future our generation will be accused of being barbaric.

But really, morals are a waste of time to spend time on. They are only valuable in facilitating a society to make it interact smoothly. If everyone's on the same page we have less friction. It's the grease that helps the machine run smoothly. Period. There is nothing further that morality provides.

[Edited on 2-10-2015 by Skipjack Joe]


Very, very well expressed and I agree with most of it.

My question is this. Yes, the Native American moral system conflicted heavily with the European's moral system, and the Native American's paid a heavy price. And no, maybe we cannot use our moral system today to criticize those who came before.

However, IMHO, while I believe the idea of declaring any one a saint is silly, it is very meaningful to a lot of people. And in doing this, there is an element of going back and approving of what the one culture did to the other culture and an implied acceptance of the one morality over the other morality.

Torquemada was a true believer and among his peers, his work was not only moral, but he was saving souls. And I am sure someone can find some miracles somewhere as they always do, so maybe he should be next.

While maybe we cannot judge either one by today's morals and standards, I just think we should not glorify them either as that becomes a current acceptance of their values.



Skipjack Joe - 2-10-2015 at 09:11 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  


Always fun to imagine the morals of the year 2500. I'm sure we will look back and be horrified that we were eating animals. I'm guilty.



I actually wish I hadn't written that. But, it's done.

DianaT - 2-10-2015 at 09:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  


Always fun to imagine the morals of the year 2500. I'm sure we will look back and be horrified that we were eating animals. I'm guilty.



I actually wish I hadn't written that. But, it's done.


Why in the world would you be sorry? It is a great read and food for more thought.

David K - 2-10-2015 at 09:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
Woody, always loved that song, although I considered it blasphemous and evil when I was growing up. Glad I got past that..........

And yep Skipjack, morality is a social concept.

Always fun to imagine the morals of the year 2500. I'm sure we will look back and be horrified that we were eating animals. I'm guilty.

That's if we can make it another 500 years.


Jon, if we weren't supposed to eat animals (including fish), then why did God make them taste so good? :light::lol:;)

P.E.T.A.

captkw - 2-10-2015 at 09:27 AM

People Eating Tasty Animals..........:lol:

Skipjack Joe - 2-10-2015 at 09:48 AM

Eating is a basic need. Can't get around that one very easily. I'm sure, however, that the biblical god never envisioned warehouses of crates with chickens packed into pens waiting to become food. There's something very wrong with that. But I can't envision man eating synthetic food either.

But something even more appaling that will some day be replaced is the testing we do on animals in order to get safe medicine. Injecting living things with viruses and pathogens and measuring their rate of deterioration is just nightmarish. Surely there will be another way some day. And that's all modern man. Man at his moral best.

Barry A. - 2-10-2015 at 10:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
It is really sad how negative things have become in the past 6 or so years. We are losing so much hope and faith in the things that used to bring us together as a nation. We are far more divided and polarized. I long for an administration that unites our country instead of dividing, grouping, 'special interesting' everyone.


Very well said, David. I agree totally with you.

Barry

DianaT - 2-10-2015 at 11:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
It is really sad how negative things have become in the past 6 or so years. We are losing so much hope and faith in the things that used to bring us together as a nation. We are far more divided and polarized. I long for an administration that unites our country instead of dividing, grouping, 'special interesting' everyone.


Very well said, David. I agree totally with you.

Barry


These kind of generalized statements are nonsense when there are no specifics. Plain and simple nonsense; just feel good sound bytes.


[Edited on 2-10-2015 by DianaT]

Mexitron - 2-10-2015 at 11:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Eating is a basic need. Can't get around that one very easily. I'm sure, however, that the biblical god never envisioned warehouses of crates with chickens packed into pens waiting to become food. There's something very wrong with that. But I can't envision man eating synthetic food either.

But something even more appaling that will some day be replaced is the testing we do on animals in order to get safe medicine. Injecting living things with viruses and pathogens and measuring their rate of deterioration is just nightmarish. Surely there will be another way some day. And that's all modern man. Man at his moral best.


Us animal eaters will soon have our flesh and eat it too---they're getting laboratory raised steaks tastier all the time---a few companies working on them---real meat but muscles grown en masse without the conscious overlord being whisked away.
Agree on animal testing and hope the grand digitized mock-up of a human being that somebody is working on(consortium based in Germany?) will eventually be able to model drug and chemical efficacies/dangers via computer---cheaper and faster than currently done and the mouse lives.
So there is hope....of course all that will have some awful downside we haven't thought of yet....but hey, this is duality, what'd you expect? :rolleyes:

Ateo - 2-10-2015 at 11:40 AM

Yep, lab raised food was exactly what I was alluding too. Fast forward 500 years and I bet we'll be eating lab grown carne asada. Sorry for the hijack. This has nothing to do with strange supernatural Junipero.

DianaT - 2-10-2015 at 11:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
Yep, lab raised food was exactly what I was alluding too. Fast forward 500 years and I bet we'll be eating lab grown carne asada. Sorry for the hijack. This has nothing to do with strange supernatural Junipero.


Shoot, he is probably levitating somewhere amused by it all.

David K - 2-10-2015 at 11:51 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  


These kind of generalized statements are nonsense when there are no specifics. Plain and simple nonsense; just feel good sound bytes.


[Edited on 2-10-2015 by DianaT]


Oh kind of like 'Hope and Change' ??? :lol:

DianaT - 2-10-2015 at 11:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  


These kind of generalized statements are nonsense when there are no specifics. Plain and simple nonsense; just feel good sound bytes.


[Edited on 2-10-2015 by DianaT]


Oh kind of like 'Hope and Change' ??? :lol:


Good to see you admit that your statement was total nonsense.

David K - 2-10-2015 at 12:06 PM

Likewise Diana ;)

Barry A. - 2-10-2015 at 12:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  
Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
It is really sad how negative things have become in the past 6 or so years. We are losing so much hope and faith in the things that used to bring us together as a nation. We are far more divided and polarized. I long for an administration that unites our country instead of dividing, grouping, 'special interesting' everyone.


Very well said, David. I agree totally with you.

Barry


These kind of generalized statements are nonsense when there are no specifics. Plain and simple nonsense; just feel good sound bytes.


[Edited on 2-10-2015 by DianaT]


Nonsense to you, perhaps, but not to other Conservatives------we know exactly what we mean.

I have noticed that when Progressives make statements for consumption by other Progressives, often we Conservatives shake out heads in dismay, and in my case often barely have a clue what they are talking about, or just plain disagree.

Our ramblings on NOMADS reminds me of Congress, often with similar results!

However, I am reassured by watching Congress on C-Span, and see that the "system" is operating as planned, for the most part.

Barry

DianaT - 2-10-2015 at 12:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  
Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
It is really sad how negative things have become in the past 6 or so years. We are losing so much hope and faith in the things that used to bring us together as a nation. We are far more divided and polarized. I long for an administration that unites our country instead of dividing, grouping, 'special interesting' everyone.


Very well said, David. I agree totally with you.

Barry


These kind of generalized statements are nonsense when there are no specifics. Plain and simple nonsense; just feel good sound bytes.


[Edited on 2-10-2015 by DianaT]


Nonsense to you, perhaps, but not to other Conservatives------we know exactly what we mean.

I have noticed that when Progressives make statements for consumption by other Progressives, often we Conservatives shake out heads in dismay, and in my case often barely have a clue what they are talking about, or just plain disagree.

Our ramblings on NOMADS reminds me of Congress, often with similar results!

However, I am reassured by watching Congress on C-Span, and see that the "system" is operating as planned, for the most part.

Barry


Total nonsense Barry. Statements like that are open to lots of interpretations in the minds of the readers. There is NOTHING of value in such sound bytes. And yes, statements like Hope and Change are in the same category as is Let's take our country back.

All have NO meaning unless there are specifics laid out, or they can mean anything the reader cares to make of the nonsense.

One could make an entire list of nonsensical political statements; just read lots of bumper stickers.

David's statement is the same -- nonsense and shoot, even he admitted it. It is all subject to interpretation by the reader --- no substance, just a feel good statement for some; or not.

On edit --- just another thought --- almost everyone one of the current political sound bytes could be adopted by any of the several political parties, from the American Independent Party to the Green Party and used as they interpret it, or just a a feel good statement to rally the troops. The same is true for David's nonsense. It could be used by all sides and people would understand it differently.

[Edited on 2-10-2015 by DianaT]

Skipjack Joe - 2-10-2015 at 12:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  
Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
Yep, lab raised food was exactly what I was alluding too. Fast forward 500 years and I bet we'll be eating lab grown carne asada. Sorry for the hijack. This has nothing to do with strange supernatural Junipero.


Shoot, he is probably levitating somewhere amused by it all.


Regarding J Serra. What about canonizing the man for what he did in the historical context of his time. Another words judge him and give him credit for what he did in his time.

There is no question he would have acted differently in our generation. But so what? If we're going to have to find someone that fully stands up to the test of time, being moral from 3000BC to 3000AD, there will never be saints. Because the criteria for sainthood changes with time. The only true saints are the ones here and now. And 300 years hence they will be laughing at our choice.

Barry A. - 2-10-2015 at 12:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  
Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  
Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
It is really sad how negative things have become in the past 6 or so years. We are losing so much hope and faith in the things that used to bring us together as a nation. We are far more divided and polarized. I long for an administration that unites our country instead of dividing, grouping, 'special interesting' everyone.


Very well said, David. I agree totally with you.

Barry


These kind of generalized statements are nonsense when there are no specifics. Plain and simple nonsense; just feel good sound bytes.


[Edited on 2-10-2015 by DianaT]


Nonsense to you, perhaps, but not to other Conservatives------we know exactly what we mean.

I have noticed that when Progressives make statements for consumption by other Progressives, often we Conservatives shake out heads in dismay, and in my case often barely have a clue what they are talking about, or just plain disagree.

Our ramblings on NOMADS reminds me of Congress, often with similar results!

However, I am reassured by watching Congress on C-Span, and see that the "system" is operating as planned, for the most part.

Barry


Total nonsense Barry. Statements like that are open to lots of interpretations in the minds of the readers. There is NOTHING of value in such sound bytes. And yes, statements like Hope and Change are in the same category as is Let's take our country back.

All have NO meaning unless there are specifics laid out, or they can mean anything the reader cares to make of the nonsense.

One could make an entire list of nonsensical political statements; just read lots of bumper stickers.

David's statement is the same -- nonsense and shoot, even he admitted it. It is all subject to interpretation by the reader --- no substance, just a feel good statement for some; or not.

On edit --- just another thought --- almost everyone one of the current political sound bytes could be adopted by any of the several political parties, from the American Independent Party to the Green Party and used as they interpret it, or just a a feel good statement to rally the troops. The same is true for David's nonsense. It could be used by all sides and people would understand it differently.

[Edited on 2-10-2015 by DianaT]


Other than your branding of "total nonsense", I agree with the rest of your statement. Few of us have time to lay out the complexities of what we mean---------like "bumper stickers", these simple statements hopefully provide support to those we think we agree with, and most of us know that.

Barry

Barry A. - 2-10-2015 at 01:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  
Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
Yep, lab raised food was exactly what I was alluding too. Fast forward 500 years and I bet we'll be eating lab grown carne asada. Sorry for the hijack. This has nothing to do with strange supernatural Junipero.


Shoot, he is probably levitating somewhere amused by it all.


Regarding J Serra. What about canonizing the man for what he did in the historical context of his time. Another words judge him and give him credit for what he did in his time.

There is no question he would have acted differently in our generation. But so what? If we're going to have to find someone that fully stands up to the test of time, being moral from 3000BC to 3000AD, there will never be saints. Because the criteria for sainthood changes with time. The only true saints are the ones here and now. And 300 years hence they will be laughing at our choice.


A very wise statement, SkipJack.

Barry

DianaT - 2-10-2015 at 01:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  
Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
Yep, lab raised food was exactly what I was alluding too. Fast forward 500 years and I bet we'll be eating lab grown carne asada. Sorry for the hijack. This has nothing to do with strange supernatural Junipero.


Shoot, he is probably levitating somewhere amused by it all.


Regarding J Serra. What about canonizing the man for what he did in the historical context of his time. Another words judge him and give him credit for what he did in his time.

There is no question he would have acted differently in our generation. But so what? If we're going to have to find someone that fully stands up to the test of time, being moral from 3000BC to 3000AD, there will never be saints. Because the criteria for sainthood changes with time. The only true saints are the ones here and now. And 300 years hence they will be laughing at our choice.


A very wise statement, SkipJack.

Barry


I think we should do like the Greeks and just create more gods! Heck, why not skip that sainthood state. If they are capable of miracles, surely they should be a god!

And yes, the only real saints are alive and well.

toneart - 2-10-2015 at 04:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  
Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  
Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
Yep, lab raised food was exactly what I was alluding too. Fast forward 500 years and I bet we'll be eating lab grown carne asada. Sorry for the hijack. This has nothing to do with strange supernatural Junipero.


Shoot, he is probably levitating somewhere amused by it all.


Regarding J Serra. What about canonizing the man for what he did in the historical context of his time. Another words judge him and give him credit for what he did in his time.

There is no question he would have acted differently in our generation. But so what? If we're going to have to find someone that fully stands up to the test of time, being moral from 3000BC to 3000AD, there will never be saints. Because the criteria for sainthood changes with time. The only true saints are the ones here and now. And 300 years hence they will be laughing at our choice.


A very wise statement, SkipJack.

Barry


I think we should do like the Greeks and just create more gods! Heck, why not skip that sainthood state. If they are capable of miracles, surely they should be a god!

And yes, the only real saints are alive and well.


Ummm....Don't know about that. They didn't make it to the Super Bowl. I heard they have a Linebacker called Junie Sierra, though. Around New Orleans the call him a god. If he makes an interception next year I hear they will canonize him. :wow:

bajabuddha - 2-10-2015 at 04:39 PM

"I think we should do like the Greeks and just create more gods! Heck, why not skip that sainthood state. If they are capable of miracles, surely they should be a god!"


Sorry, Diana T. Already done; the Mormons beatcha to it.

"As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become".

Just a little Hooey trivia for your enjoyment. :bounce:

Cisco - 2-10-2015 at 06:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  
Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  
Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
Yep, lab raised food was exactly what I was alluding too. Fast forward 500 years and I bet we'll be eating lab grown carne asada. Sorry for the hijack. This has nothing to do with strange supernatural Junipero.


Shoot, he is probably levitating somewhere amused by it all.


Regarding J Serra. What about canonizing the man for what he did in the historical context of his time. Another words judge him and give him credit for what he did in his time.

There is no question he would have acted differently in our generation. But so what? If we're going to have to find someone that fully stands up to the test of time, being moral from 3000BC to 3000AD, there will never be saints. Because the criteria for sainthood changes with time. The only true saints are the ones here and now. And 300 years hence they will be laughing at our choice.


A very wise statement, SkipJack.

Barry


I think we should do like the Greeks and just create more gods! Heck, why not skip that sainthood state. If they are capable of miracles, surely they should be a god!

And yes, the only real saints are alive and well.


Although I totally got away from any religious beliefs at 14 and have never gone back I do have a lot of polytheism raging around me.

The brass, grass, bamboo, hundreds of pounds of crystals and the printed icons; a 5' X 8' oil painting of two snakes intertwined and surrounded by turtles, butterflies,...the bleeding heart of Jesus posted on the inside of the laundry closet (THAT freaked me out the first time), all make for a rather busy house and yard. (I mean a 4' granite Buddha?) Two Granite FOO dogs guarding the front door.

She began to explain to me once the significance of the large brass figure with an elephant nose and five arms, or the Buddha that looks like Jabba The Hut with a gaggle of kids in his lap and I guess I just looked so vacant about the whole deal that she gave up.

The Feng Shui lady (after getting rid of the two ghosts that were residing here. Fortunately one was cool and the other a 'mean' ghost so they canceled each other out) suggested a large succulent be planted at each corner of the front of the house.

The neighbors must think we are big time dopers as she bundles up some kind of dry plant stems, lights them off and leaves them to smolder in the house and yard. (I imagine the neighbors in this hood have their own thing going though also).

But, everyone to their own trip I guess.

I know I would be defined as an atheist, which I object to. Why do we have to be defined as an anything? I don't BELIEVE in a God! I do not not BELIEVE in a God. Has nothing to do with my life but the actions of others and the absurdities inherent in BELIEF have sure influenced all societies.

Again. What does not exist is more difficult to prove than what does exist.


DianaT - 2-10-2015 at 06:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cisco  


Although I totally got away from any religious beliefs at 14 and have never gone back I do have a lot of polytheism raging around me.

The brass, grass, bamboo, hundreds of pounds of crystals and the printed icons; a 5' X 8' oil painting of two snakes intertwined and surrounded by turtles, butterflies,...the bleeding heart of Jesus posted on the inside of the laundry closet (THAT freaked me out the first time), all make for a rather busy house and yard. (I mean a 4' granite Buddha?) Two Granite FOO dogs guarding the front door.

She began to explain to me once the significance of the large brass figure with an elephant nose and five arms, or the Buddha that looks like Jabba The Hut with a gaggle of kids in his lap and I guess I just looked so vacant about the whole deal that she gave up.

The Feng Shui lady (after getting rid of the two ghosts that were residing here. Fortunately one was cool and the other a 'mean' ghost so they canceled each other out) suggested a large succulent be planted at each corner of the front of the house.

The neighbors must think we are big time dopers as she bundles up some kind of dry plant stems, lights them off and leaves them to smolder in the house and yard. (I imagine the neighbors in this hood have their own thing going though also).

But, everyone to their own trip I guess.

I know I would be defined as an atheist, which I object to. Why do we have to be defined as an anything? I don't BELIEVE in a God! I do not not BELIEVE in a God. Has nothing to do with my life but the actions of others and the absurdities inherent in BELIEF have sure influenced all societies.

Again. What does not exist is more difficult to prove than what does exist.




I tend to lean heavily toward Pantheism, so in many ways, I believe or spirits, just not in an anthropomorphic god. Thus I find saints and personal gods created in the image of man rather silly. But, if it remains harmless, so be it.
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