BajaNomad - Re-entry to the USA Without Passports?

The Goat needs to fix his quote, because part of his quote got deleted, the whole thread is unreadable

The Goat needs to fix a lot of things.

JoeJustJoe - 3-23-2017 at 12:10 PM

There should be a sticky on these types of threads, because this question about re-entry from Mexico, back to the US, with or without a passport, comes up all the time, and the question, about if you need a FMM ( Mexican tourist card) is now starting to come up a lot too.

The answers are also predictable, with a few saying, yes absolutely you need a passport to re-enter the US, and you better go get a passport, before you even try.

Others, will say, yes you need a passport, but if you are a US citizen, you can't be denied entry back to the USA, but if you don't have a passport you will be sent to secondary, and you could spend hours in secondary.

Others will say, you also need a passport to get into Mexico, and you will need to get a Mexican tourist card anytime you go to Mexico, including day trips over the border.

Then there are a few enlightened ones like JoeJustJoe, that say, yes it's the letter of the law that you need a passport to go to Mexico, and back in the US, and the FMM card is also required for trips to Mexico, including short day trips, But, and this is big.

There are hundreds if not more Americans, mostly Mexican-Americans, that visit Mexico's border cites like Tijuana, everyday without a passport, and they are armed with only a driver's Licence, and birth certificate, and they have no trouble driving into Mexico, and back to the USA. No there are not sent to secondary, and rarely do US Customs officials tell them anything about the US Passport requirements.

Who bothers to get an FMM card for a day trip to Mexico? Maybe, If i'm walking in Tijuana, and the Mexican officials fill out an FMM for me, then I'll carry if around.

In fact a few trips to Tijuana, I was asked how long am I going to stay, I told them one day, and they waved me right through without the bother of filling out an FMM form.

In Mexico like all places in the world, there is the LAW, and there is a PRACTICE. Many US citizens, can't afford passports for all family members over a certain age, and some can't get a passport for other legal reasons.

David K - 3-23-2017 at 01:34 PM

All true Joe...
What we on Nomad should do is inform on what is the law and what is enforced... then let the reader decide.

I know from family members that Americans can come back to America without a passport... and there was no extra questioning or trip to secondary. Maybe it's attitude, or that some of us look and talk like Americans? Having a passport just makes the border process a guaranteed success and complies with the government request. Obviously, to make the border officer's job happen quicker without guessing. None of us want's terrorists easily entering America.

I also know that they do not stop every car driving into Mexico and tell them to get an FMM. Also, that you can spend weeks in Baja and never get asked to provide the FMM. Does that mean you don't need to have it to comply with laws? No.
I have never been asked for my driver's license during trips... does that mean I don't have to have one?

I want as many reading this forum to know that a trip to Baja is a fantastic experience and not a horror story possibility like the media and friends tell us going to Mexico is.

I also want people to know the reality of having (or not having) passports and FMMs. Yes, you can have a trip without either (if you aren't pulled over at the border) and yes, you may be asked for it later and fined for not having an FMM, as our friends have (edm1 at Guerrero Negro, July 2011, US$100).

PaulW - 3-24-2017 at 01:56 PM

Regarding entry to Mx without an FMM. A sad story once one enters into the justice system. The result of one case I know of the simple appearance in court resulted in deportation and the court process was terminated. It was several years before the guy dared to return.
The question is what if you get in an accident and the cop asks for your papers? What he will want is see is your registration, Drivers licence, and FMM.
Your experience probably will be difdferent/

PaulW - 3-24-2017 at 02:01 PM

Forgot my passport heading north once and the Border Customs guy said here is a pamphlet of what is required. And I showed him my drivers license and he waved us thru.
The pamphlet included a list which drivers licensees have RFID and are legal for reentry to the US. My license was not on the list but was still accepted.

David K - 3-24-2017 at 02:07 PM

Do the police have any enforcement authority over immigration status?

Baja Bound has already dispelled the rumors that Mexican auto insurance is nullified by the lack of a tourist card. Not an excuse for not getting one, we are already clear that we are supposed to have one. Let's just base information on facts.

Has anyone here been asked to show their tourist card by anyone other than INM officers, as they once did near Guerrero Negro?

bajaguy - 3-24-2017 at 02:14 PM

Yup, after an accident on Blvd 2000, Rosarito police. Wanted proof of immigration status. Also at Federal Police checkpoint at jct of Hwy 5 and Hwy 3, north of San Felipe

Do the police have any enforcement authority over immigration status?

Baja Bound has already dispelled the rumors that Mexican auto insurance is nullified by the lack of a tourist card. Not an excuse for not getting one, we are already clear that we are supposed to have one. Let's just base information on facts.

Has anyone here been asked to show their tourist card by anyone other than INM officers, as they once did near Guerrero Negro?

JoeJustJoe - 3-24-2017 at 03:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by PaulW

Regarding entry to Mx without an FMM. A sad story once one enters into the justice system. The result of one case I know of the simple appearance in court resulted in deportation and the court process was terminated. It was several years before the guy dared to return.
The question is what if you get in an accident and the cop asks for your papers? What he will want is see is your registration, Drivers licence, and FMM.
Your experience probably will be difdferent/

Your friend is probably pulling your leg, because the FMM requirement that requires all US and Canadian citizens to have an FMM anytime they are in Mexico wasn't required until September 2015.

And your post appears this incident with your friend happened many years ago, not recently according to your post.

What crime did your friend commit in Mexico that they stopped the court process, and instead deported him?

I also don't think Mexican cops also enforce immigration policy? I would be more concerned if I got into an accident in Mexico, that I had Mexican car insurance than I would a FMM filled out.

PaulW - 3-24-2017 at 04:39 PM

Joe,
Yes, deported a long time ago. Civil lawsuit. No crime.
Suspicious -- How to get rid of one party.

Also long time ago traffic accident all I needed was a driver license. Not my fault and the other US guy never got charged. A third party sued and got payment in a Mx court. My damages were covered by his US insurance.

Got stopped for speeding long time ago and had to provide license and registration - nothing else.

unbob - 4-19-2017 at 08:54 AM

Baja Bound has already dispelled the rumors that Mexican auto insurance is nullified by the lack of a tourist card. Not an excuse for not getting one, we are already clear that we are supposed to have one. Let's just base information on facts.

I've always wondered about this - do you have a link to the page on Baja Bound site where it states not having FMM will not nullify Mexican auto insurance? I've searched but found nothing. Thx!

BajaMama - 4-19-2017 at 10:08 AM

The only time we have ever been asked for FMM/tourist card was at the "bug stop" in GN over ten years ago - maybe 2003 or 2004?

[Edited on 4-19-2017 by BajaMama]

JoeJustJoe - 4-19-2017 at 11:56 AM

I've always wondered about this - do you have a link to the page on Baja Bound site where it states not having FMM will not nullify Mexican auto insurance? I've searched but found nothing. Thx!

Why do you need a link?

Anybody believing thinking that not having an FMM in Mexico, will nullify your auto insurance if you get into an accident, is as silly as thinking if you die in Mexico, without an FMM, that it would also nullify your life insurance.

sancho - 4-19-2017 at 12:02 PM

Do the police have any enforcement authority over immigration status?
Baja Bound has already dispelled the rumors that Mexican auto insurance is nullified by the lack of a tourist card

Well, I remember a fairly recent quote from Geoff Bajabound,
re: that subject. I put it to memory, the quote was 'it depends
on your Mex Ins Co', to whether not having an fmm, being in
Baja illegally would nulify a Mex Auto Ins policy. Although never
heard, read of that occurring. I realize it was just a question, while Baja cops would more than likely be out of their jurisdiction to conduct Immigration enforcement, not so sure one should
challenge them.
At the the very least, it would give extreme leverage mordida

JZ - 4-19-2017 at 02:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ElCazadorAZ

Friends headed to Rocky point without passports passport cards, nor "enhanced" driver's licenses. Can you still re-enter the USA by auto from Mexico without a valid passport?
Spent an hour on Google and down the rabbit hole at the State Dept website without a definitive answer.
Thanks for your recent experience.

[Edited on 3-21-2017 by ElCazadorAZ]

The bigger problem is them going to RP. That place isn't that great and can't hold a candle to San Carlos. Tell them to go a couple hours further South.

https://youtu.be/GKTBVCIQ_z8

JZ - 4-19-2017 at 02:38 PM

In my 100's of trips to Mexico the only time I've been asked for a tourist card is when getting a permit for the truck or boat. For that they ask every time.

willardguy - 4-19-2017 at 03:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaMama

The only time we have ever been asked for FMM/tourist card was at the "bug stop" in GN over ten years ago - maybe 2003 or 2004?

[Edited on 4-19-2017 by BajaMama]

looking back I wonder just how ligit those "IMN"agents in the trailer really were?

unbob - 4-19-2017 at 08:29 PM

Anybody believing thinking that not having an FMM in Mexico, will nullify your auto insurance if you get into an accident, is as silly as thinking if you die in Mexico, without an FMM, that it would also nullify your life insurance.

My logic is simple - if you're an "illegal" can you legally engage in a legal contract?

Your statement also implies that the millions of illegal Mexicans in the US can legally obtain (US) auto insurance - is that true?

David K - 4-19-2017 at 08:38 PM

The insurance companies don't enforce immigration laws. Baja Bound did ask this concern to the company they sell policies for and the answer was that lack of a tourist card did NOT void the policy. Please contact your agency to validate. But, why would you even think of being an illegal on vacation?

JoeJustJoe - 4-20-2017 at 02:13 AM

Unbob wrote: "if you're an "illegal" can you legally engage in a legal contract?"

JJJ answer: YES, undocumented Mexicans, are persons, and have Constitutional rights regardless of their papers in the US, and they can sign legal contracts. Undocumented Mexicans can buy a house, car, pay taxes, and a whole host of things without having legal immigration paperwork.
_____________________

UnBob wrote: "Your statement also implies that the millions of illegal Mexicans in the US can legally obtain (US) auto insurance - is that true?"
__________

JJJ wrote: Well Unbob, you're changing the scenario of the of the topic we are discussing, and that topic we are discussing is already having an auto insurance policy/contract, and if it's possible, for an insurance company to void a contract, and not pay up if you're involved in an accident in Mexico, but you didn't have a Mexican tourist card.

Now you want to know if undocumented Mexicans can even form a contract with a car insurance company, and get auto insurance?

Well, if you are in at least 12 states in the USA that allows undocumented Aliens to get driver's licenses, the answer to your question is YES.

mtgoat666 - 4-20-2017 at 06:07 AM

Just get a passport!
If you also get the passport card, you can use the ready lanes, and enjoy the shorter border line.

JoeJustJoe - 4-20-2017 at 08:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Just get a passport!
If you also get the passport card, you can use the ready lanes, and enjoy the shorter border line.

Sure, getting a passport would make it a lot easier, but the fact is many many people can't get a passport for a variety of reason, for example, they can't afford it, they owe back child support, they have a felony drug conviction on their record, they didn't pay their government loans, and other things of that nature.

This thread has also morphed into a discussion about the FMM where according to the law, you're suppose to get a tourist card anytime you visit Mexico.

But now the thread is bordering on the ridiculous where some think all kinds of bad things will happen to you, for example, some think that if you bought Mexico car insurance, and got into a car accident, that the insurance company can void the contract.

Again, personally, I'm not going to waste my time getting a tourist card on a day trip to to a Mexican border city, and I'm not a alone. But everybody is free to do what they want.

sancho - 4-20-2017 at 03:38 PM

The insurance companies don't enforce immigration laws. Baja Bound did ask this concern to the company they sell policies for and the answer was that lack of a tourist card did NOT void the policy. Please contact your agency to validate

Discover Baja, at least on their site, is a bit cautious re: the
POSSIBILTY of a Mex Auto being rendered INVALID without the driver
having an FMM: plus these adjusters that show up at an accident, sent by your Mex Ins Co, are independent workers,
they may represent a few Mex Ins Co's, which may have slightly
different requirements:
http://www.discoverbaja.com/fmm-faqs/

unbob - 4-20-2017 at 05:41 PM

Thx David! Normally I would not think of visiting Mexico as an "illegal". This question only arose due to my FMM nearing expiration and me wanting to stay longer in Baja (don't we all want to stay longer?

) So I had wondered what would happen if I stayed for a few weeks after my FMM expired - and then if I were involved in an auto accident - would my Mexican auto insurance honor any claim I might submit. Otherwise, no, I would not be in Mexico illegally.

JoeJustJoe - 4-20-2017 at 06:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by sancho

Discover Baja, is not only overly cautious, but they're nuts!

"Discover Baja" is not an American or Mexican insurance company, nor the the two old people that run it are not auto insurance agents.

[Edited on 4-21-2017 by JoeJustJoe]

Lee - 4-20-2017 at 07:31 PM

I'm superstitious. The scenario you've described is an accident waiting to happen. While I believe David's statement about MX insurance and FMM's, finding out your MX insurance is invalid while at the scene of an accident is bad news.

Renew the FMM, don't let it expire. Stay legal.

unbob - 4-21-2017 at 08:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lee

Agreed. But since I hang-out on the East Cape - going all the way back to the border to obtain a new FMM is expensive and a huge PITA!

When I think about it - the requirement of going to the border to obtain the FMM seems a bit ridiculous - after all, I'm a foreigner in Mexico obviously spending $$$ and therefore contributing to the local economy - so why make it difficult for me to stay here and continue to spend $$$?

JoeJustJoe - 4-21-2017 at 02:05 PM

Unbob, nobody is making anything difficult for you.

You have created this whole scenario in your head, and you didn't actually overstay your FMM, nor did you get into an auto accident in Mexico, and then had your Mexican auto insurance company void the contract, because your FMM expired.

I would think most American tourists, would be happy with a tourist card that allows them to stay in Mexico for 180 days, before moving up to a Resident Visa.

The only difficulty I could see you encountering is thinking just because you're American, or a foreign tourist with $$$, and that Mexico or rather Mexicans, hould bend over backwards to serve you.

If you overstay your FMM, that's up to you to take care of, not anybody else. But again, it's not a big deal, just find an office that's usually at the Airport, and pay a small fine depending the number of days you are over up to 180 days or six months.

Baja Bound is right, a lack of a tourist card does not void the auto policy.

[Edited on 4-21-2017 by JoeJustJoe]

willardguy - 4-21-2017 at 03:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lee

can't disagree with that! have you tried the La Paz ferry port for a FMM?

unbob - 4-22-2017 at 07:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by willardguy

can't disagree with that! have you tried the La Paz ferry port for a FMM?

Never thought of that! But I see no reason why it would be available there - after all, it's no where near the border. But this being Mexico - who knows!

unbob - 4-22-2017 at 07:51 AM

I would think most American tourists, would be happy with a tourist card that allows them to stay in Mexico for 180 days, before moving up to a Resident Visa.

The only difficulty I could see you encountering is thinking just because you're American, or a foreign tourist with $$$, and that Mexico or rather Mexicans, should bend over backwards to serve you.

[Edited on 4-21-2017 by JoeJustJoe]

For the record - yes, I am very happy the FMM allows me to stay in Mexico for 180 days. And, no, I don't expect anyone to "bend over backwards" to "serve" me. I respect everyone I meet and hope for same in return. Period.

mtgoat666 - 4-22-2017 at 08:00 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lee

Mexico has not made it "difficult" for you. On the contrary, they give you 180-day visas with little hassle.
If you are living in Mexico for more than 6 months, perhaps it is time to get a proper visa, eh?

Btw, you money is not magic fairy dust. You are a retiree, probably spending modestly, your few $$ spent at the Pemex and local market are not golden ticket to special treatment by Mexican govt.

willardguy - 4-22-2017 at 08:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by willardguy

can't disagree with that! have you tried the La Paz ferry port for a FMM?

Never thought of that! But I see no reason why it would be available there - after all, it's no where near the border. But this being Mexico - who knows!

some ADV riders were able to get em there :light:

unbob - 4-22-2017 at 12:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Btw, you money is not magic fairy dust. You are a retiree, probably spending modestly, your few $$ spent at the Pemex and local market are not golden ticket to special treatment by Mexican govt.

Correcto - I am a US retiree spending very modestly while in Mexico - I never implied I'm a fat-cat big spender! And I'm certainly not expecting "special treatment" by anyone for anything!

JoeJustJoe - 4-22-2017 at 01:43 PM

You're missing my point. If the Mexican govt. allows me to acquire a new FMM every 6 months - why force me to return to the border to get it? Seems a waste of time & $$$ - not to mention the inherent risk involved while traveling.

Correcto - I am a US retiree spending very modestly while in Mexico - I never implied I'm a fat-cat big spender! And I'm certainly not expecting "special treatment" by anyone for anything!

Unbob, the Mexican Government, does not allow you to stay in Mexico, and renew your FMM every 6 months. Six(6) months is the maximum that you could stay in Mexico using the FMM tourist card, however, if you overstay your visit, you only have to pay a small fine per day that you are overstayed your 180 FMM maximum limit.

Mexico is bending over backwards for you UnBob to not ruin your trip, or stay a few extra days, and 6 months is more than enough time to visit Mexico as a tourist, if you want to still be considered a tourist.

What you are talking about Unbob, is gaming the system, and now you seem to be upset, you have to drive back to the border area, to game the system, and stay another 6 months, and maybe perhaps, game the system, over and over again, so that you don't have to apply for the proper resident visa, and meet it's income and other requirements.

If you want to renew the 180 tourist FMM, then you will have to leave the country of Mexico, and then come back in for another 180-day visitor permit, that's if you want to follow the law and do it legally.

sancho - 4-22-2017 at 01:50 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Btw, you money is not magic fairy dust

Fairy dust, I like the term. But I don't see unbob's position as
unreasonable, nor should he be scolded, Mex Imm doesn't
put restrictions on fmm's, therefore he is within the regs.
Me too, the chance of running into a situation with an
auto accident, and being found not to have legal Imm status,
PROBABLY would not matter. To me, leaving the CHANCE
for some Mex Authority to view things otherwise, is not
something I would gamble on, not that it wouldn't turn
out well, just may result in some grief. Was a rental vehicle
a few yrs back, got stuck off roading in the Laguna Salada
no. of San Felipe, the occupants were turned over to
Mex Imm, whatever that entails

[Edited on 4-22-2017 by sancho]

unbob - 4-22-2017 at 05:05 PM

JJJ, thanks for telling me nothing I don't already know. First you tell me I'm "gaming the system" if I obtain a new FMM every 6 months - and then you tell me I "will have to leave the country of Mexico, and then come back in for another 180-day visitor permit, that's if you want to follow the law and do it legally." which is exactly what I would do if I want to stay beyond 180 days. I have no intention of doing otherwise. So, no problem!

However, with your kind permission I reserve the right to be unhappy about having to return to the border to obtain the FMM rather than obtaining it in La Paz or wherever.

This is all I'm saying regarding this topic. I'm done - have a nice day!

Bajazly - 4-22-2017 at 06:05 PM

Wait...