BajaNomad - Just returned from the Cortez

Just returned from the Cortez

Sonora Wind - 6-16-2017 at 06:53 AM

We fished 12 days over the span of a month. I had not been to this area in 10 years. Last visit was 2007. I came away with the impression the Sea is in decline. Not because we did not catch fish. We did. What I'm speaking about is a huge decline in the locals. Where I use to see several sharks a day, I saw none. Where I use to see Thousands of Sea Lions on Esteban I saw a couple a hundred. Where I use to see hundreds of birds diving on bait I saw them in groups of 10s and 20s. Where we stayed in Kino one day we saw 13 trawlers less than 1000 feet from shore dropping nets. I think the Locals AKA Sharks, Sea Lions, Sea Birds, Bait have left. Not sure about this last feeling, but I think I heard a Yellowtail thank me for helping him get out. He seemed to say the spirits of the Cortez are sad. :cool:

[Edited on 6-16-2017 by Sonora Wind]

chuckie - 6-16-2017 at 07:04 AM

Well spoke, and so true...

woody with a view - 6-16-2017 at 07:15 AM

7 billion mouths, and counting.....

David K - 6-16-2017 at 07:46 AM

Hola Sonora Wind! Thank you for the interesting message. Things change and not always for the best. Let's hope they improve for the 'locals'!
Thank you again for taking Sarah and I on the fishing trip!

yumawill - 6-16-2017 at 08:01 AM

So sad. An entire ecosystem in decline and no way to stop it. Unfortunately the rate of decay will most likely accelerate before it finally bottoms out. God help us all..........

motoged - 6-16-2017 at 08:45 AM

The planet's health is clearly in serious decline....denial of the facts don't make them false....

Where is "God" in this equation?

I think "wishing/hoping/praying" for change is less effective than actually doing something about it....person by person...we are ALL responsible.

David K - 6-16-2017 at 09:09 AM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

The planet's health is clearly in serious decline....denial of the facts don't make them false....

Where is "God" in this equation?

I think "wishing/hoping/praying" for change is less effective than actually doing something about it....person by person...we are ALL responsible.

What about the change 65 million years ago?
What about countless other mass extinctions since life began on earth? Maybe all of that, including the change right now, is all part of His (or Mother Earth's) plan?
To think this planet is only for man's use and the planet can't change because man doesn't adapt is kind of silly, isn't it?

woody with a view - 6-16-2017 at 09:28 AM

Oh gawd, does anyone really think there is heaven/hell after this dimension? The ten (15?) commandments are just a bunch of campfire stories told for millenia. Great tenets for sure, but handed down from a god?

SFandH - 6-16-2017 at 09:30 AM

Certainly the current decrease in sea life in the Sea of Cortez is due to overfishing. I don't know the extent of damage due to sewage and other pollutants entering the sea around metro areas but it must also be degrading sea life.

[Edited on 6-16-2017 by SFandH]

bajabuddha - 6-16-2017 at 09:33 AM

Started out as an interesting thread, but here it goes again.... :yawn:

motoged - 6-16-2017 at 09:43 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

....
To think this planet is only for man's use and the planet can't change because man doesn't adapt is kind of silly, isn't it?

David,
No one said that except you....

I get it that you won't accept the fact that humans are in a relationship with the planet that is harmful due to the myopic views that that some, such as you, hold. Such short-sightedness only contributes to such a decline in the planet's well-being.

Silly????

Get a grip.

SFandH - 6-16-2017 at 09:46 AM

Just read something interesting.

"For every pound of shrimp caught in the Sea of Cortez, nearly 10 pounds of other marine life dies."

http://www.utdallas.edu/~rnix/MAT-SE_Units/gulf_cal.pdf

Think about that the next time you have a shrimp dinner in Baja.

BajaBlanca - 6-16-2017 at 10:22 AM

It is amazing how huge a difference one person can make. I see it with the plastic we generate at our house and we are trying to diminish this impact by using bigger containers rather than individual ones, repurposing whenever possible, and sending all our food waste to local pig farms -so the mix of plastic - food - metal does not further harm our world.

JZ - 6-16-2017 at 10:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bajabuddha

Started out as an interesting thread, but here it goes again.... :yawn:

It didn't start out as a good thread. It started out as yet another dude romancing about how things use to be back in the day and how they are crappy now.

Try going more than once every 10 years. Some trips I see a ton of dolphins, some times I don't. Doesn't mean the world is crumbling.

norte - 6-16-2017 at 10:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

I was not there 65 million years ago. I was not there for other mass extinctions. Maybe his plan is for you to be a guardian of the Earth and not an abuser.

I am here and now. I believe it is my duty, and yours to see that we do not abuse where we live. That we do not cause extinctions through our actions. And that we do what we can to curb our harmful actions....to do otherwise is kinda silly isn't it? (and that is whether you believe in God, Ged, or Santa Clause).

bajabuddha - 6-16-2017 at 11:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ

Quote: Originally posted by bajabuddha

Started out as an interesting thread, but here it goes again.... :yawn:

Jizzy, I can't wait to grow up and be as smart as you.

Then again, you'll be surprised how much I learn in the next few years.

TMW - 6-16-2017 at 11:12 AM

I think it would be helpful if families would have less kids. Less mouths to feed. How many billion will it be before there is not enough food. Some are already starving.

mtgoat666 - 6-16-2017 at 11:43 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

Only a fool would think we should pollute this world and decimate it's species, and justify it as OK because god wouldn't let us do so if it was not meant to be.
There is no god.
There is no afterlife.
This is the only world and only life we got.
If you flock it up, then you flocked up your home.
Man is populous, and using tools to extract increasingly massive amounts of natural resources and spew massive amounts of waste byproduct and pollution.
The world is changing due to man's activities.
Like I said, if you flock up the earth, then you flocked up your home!

norte - 6-16-2017 at 11:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

Quote: Originally posted by David K

....
To think this planet is only for man's use and the planet can't change because man doesn't adapt is kind of silly, isn't it?

Please stop assuming you know me... at least until we have a beer together, eh?

Quite the opposite is true from your reply. I am totally 'one with the idea' that humans are a part of this planet, a natural part. So many think man is an alien species and his actions are all counter to the natural order.

So many billions live in countries that are free to pollute while our two nations strive to be cleaner and cleaner even though we produce the majority of so many products and food for the world.

Are you insinuating that we should all conform to the lowest common denominator? As a "natural" part of this planet...we should take care of it. You do not have a bowel movement in your living room just because bowel movements are natural, do you?

[Edited on 6-16-2017 by norte]

SFandH - 6-16-2017 at 12:11 PM

The decrease in the marine life in the Sea of Cortez, which is what this thread is about, is certainly not natural, it's artificial, man-made, largely due to greed and corruption.

motoged - 6-16-2017 at 12:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

.....

I just was asking Ged why natural change was okay before, but not now? That some of you think for the first time in 4 billion years the change is not natural is a bit odd, I think.

David,
That is false...you were not asking me a question....you were saying that the thinking YOU assumed was /is my thinking is silly.

Are you saying that man, as an element of nature, can spoil the planet and that such behaviour is "natural" ?

I don't expect that your views will change .... your inflexibility in thinking makes such change unlikely. Your logic seems impaired.

norte - 6-16-2017 at 01:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Funny... it really doesn't matter what I say because you will spin it to satisfy your idea of what you think that I think. Why does it matter to you what I think, anyway?

I just was asking Ged why natural change was okay before, but not now? That some of you think for the first time in 4 billion years the change is not natural is a bit odd, I think.

Odd only because you do not believe that the evolution, growth, and ACTION of the human species has a negative effect that can be changed.

There is no spinning this....you said "So many billions live in countries that are free to pollute while our two nations strive to be cleaner and cleaner even though we produce the majority of so many products and food for the world."

That can only be interpreted one way when it is from a "denier".

Ged, pls have a beer with him. He thinks that you will come around to his way of thinking...How many beers would it take?

motoged - 6-16-2017 at 02:08 PM

:lol:

Now why would I want to have a beer with a guy who thinks like that?

Really......

:?:

But I appreciate your suggestion as a gesture that might be
fruitful :saint:

Sorry JZ

Sonora Wind - 6-16-2017 at 02:20 PM

I still work, so for me it's hard to get south more than 4 or 5 times a year. What I said was I hadn't been to this area of the midriff in 10 years ( About 40+ Baja/mainland trips ago ). But you're so right, I was very much romancing the past. In the day running 50 to 100 miles a day in the sea felt very different than today. I would see very few people, but wildlife was everywhere. I didn't feel like I had a right to be there, but I respected the fact I was hunting and sharing life with the other apex hunters. Last week I felt alone, because they where not there. To be sure I caught limits every day out. I know secret spots only known to an old Seri chief and a few hundred surfers at the sisters. Fish I can find, My old friends I could not.

chuckie - 6-16-2017 at 04:25 PM

DK? Quit while you are even...maybe...You just make yourself look more ignorant every time you get on this subject.....

dorado50 - 6-16-2017 at 04:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

That is cool that YOU are taking responsibility by not consuming seafood harvested from the SOC. One person at a time could make a difference. I however could not resist the large succulent lobster tails I bought off the street today. Does not the Earth heal itself?.

chuckie - 6-16-2017 at 05:04 PM

Where did he say he was doing that? I doubt anyone cares if you ate lobsters....No, I don't think the earth heals itself.

Russ - 6-16-2017 at 05:34 PM

Fire and Brimstone I think it the end

David K - 6-16-2017 at 06:06 PM

Red sky at night is a sailor's delight! :light:

Thanks Russ for a stunning photo! :bounce:

norte - 6-16-2017 at 06:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by dorado50

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

Buying out of season lobster is really not a way to help the ecology or the economy.

chuckie - 6-16-2017 at 06:34 PM

Out of season? Really? Since when?

norte - 6-16-2017 at 07:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie

Out of season? Really? Since when?

http://baja.com/blog/coveted-crustaceans-bajas-shrimp-and-lo...

chuckie - 6-17-2017 at 04:31 AM

Says Lobster is always available...encourages eating it WTF?

BajaBreak - 6-17-2017 at 04:39 AM

Usually the out of season lobster has been frozen...

chuckie - 6-17-2017 at 06:34 AM

Really...Lived in Mulege over 30 years,never saw a frozen lobster, something new I guess...

weebray - 6-17-2017 at 07:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie

Really...Lived in Mulege over 30 years,never saw a frozen lobster, something new I guess...

I'm sorry to hear that you are blind. I do have some braille books my nephew has already read. I could drop them off.

chuckie - 6-17-2017 at 08:08 AM

es OK....

Hook - 6-17-2017 at 11:43 AM

How do you allow yourself to be drawn into a debate with someone who believes the universe was created in six earth days.............and says there is no proof of global warming?

BajaBreak - 6-17-2017 at 04:24 PM

I didn't see much debating.

Sonora Wind, that is an interesting observation, of not seeing the other hunters out there.

Damming the Colorado river really damned the Sea of Cortez. It will never be undone enough to make a significant impact (although the recent flows they've released were a nice idea), but it is the one thing that could revive it. At this point I wonder if releasing a bunch of water into the delta wouldn't just pollute the crap out of the upper Cortez.

I stopped eating shrimp because of the by-catch losses. Getting the fishermen to use the less damaging rolling shrimp nets would be great too. People that want to fund efforts should try to work on that among other things. I'll keep dreaming.

Bubba - 6-17-2017 at 04:56 PM

Have been going to the East Cape for over 25 yrs and witnessed the decline personally. The sea is being raped, it's that simple.

bajabuddha - 6-17-2017 at 04:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaBreak

I didn't see much debating.

Sonora Wind, that is an interesting observation, of not seeing the other hunters out there.

Damming the Colorado river really damned the Sea of Cortez. It will never be undone enough to make a significant impact (although the recent flows they've released were a nice idea), but it is the one thing that could revive it. At this point I wonder if releasing a bunch of water into the delta wouldn't just pollute the crap out of the upper Cortez.

I stopped eating shrimp because of the by-catch losses. Getting the fishermen to use the less damaging rolling shrimp nets would be great too. People that want to fund efforts should try to work on that among other things. I'll keep dreaming.

Amen times ten.
Daming the Colorado with the Damn Dams is only the first stage of the SOC's destruction. Since the 30's and then the 60's that dried everything up the amount of shrimping is the singular-most devastating harvesting there is. I've boycotted eating shrimp for years.... and the silly debate about shrimping vs. lobstering on this thread is laughable. It's comparing oranges to orangutans (pun intended). Lobsters are done in traps or with divers. Shrimping leads to a 10x1 destruction of life and a jettison of usable product over the side. It's a rampant rape of life in the harvest for one specific species. I think for the gluttony of the WORLD for shrimp it surpasses long-lining and 5-mile-long netting trawlers. Maybe yes, maybe no, I can't know. What I do know is, the SOC used to be one of the richest areas of bounty in the world. So much for that, eh?

Post script.... compared to the CT boundary extinction of 65 million years ago, we've accomplished in less than 100 years what it accomplished in less than 100 days possibly. However, comparing them to each other is again with oranges to orangutans (pun intended). Anyone who does to me is either misguided, am 'alternative news' nut, or both.

[Edited on 6-18-2017 by bajabuddha]

Alm - 6-17-2017 at 05:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW

I think it would be helpful if families would have less kids. Less mouths to feed.

This is one of solutions. However, stone-age mentality of 3rd world countries - mostly contributing to this population growth - is near impossible to overturn. There are plenty of radical pro-lifers in the western world (radical to the point that no measures of birth control should be used at all), who can't and wouldn't think outside the box either. So I guess talk is useless.

norte - 6-17-2017 at 05:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Alm

Quote: Originally posted by TMW

I think it would be helpful if families would have less kids. Less mouths to feed.

It is not natural to not have kids. Nature gave us the means and the urge to make many. Therefore we should not use birth control. Besides, why should we have less children when all the third world countries breed incessantly.

SFandH - 6-17-2017 at 06:04 PM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW

I think it would be helpful if families would have less kids. Less mouths to feed. How many billion will it be before there is not enough food. Some are already starving.

Mexico's fertility rate, births per woman, has fallen from 6.8 in 1960 to 2.2 in 2015. The US is at 1.8.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN

[Edited on 6-18-2017 by SFandH]

BajaBreak - 6-17-2017 at 06:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by norte

it is not natural to not have kids. Nature gave us the means and the urge to make many. Therefore we should not use birth control. Besides, why should we have less children when all the third world countries breed incessantly.

Seriously, it's Idiocracy, like the movie...

bajabuddha - 6-17-2017 at 08:08 PM

The Duggars. America's Christian sharia law.

Paco Facullo - 6-18-2017 at 08:34 AM

Today the human species has become akin to Locust and are ravaging and polluting it an alarming rate.

What the world NEEDS is an old fashioned pandemic to do away with about 90% of us.
That would give some time for mother earth to heal itself.

Humans ARE the most destructive species on earth, bar none.

Driven by the two worst human traits, GREED and EGO ......

Paco Facullo - 6-18-2017 at 08:44 AM

People think and hope that science wiill solve all the earths problems .

Good luck with that. Think Soylent green........

David K - 6-18-2017 at 10:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Paco Facullo

Today the human species has become akin to Locust and are ravaging and polluting it an alarming rate.

What the world NEEDS is an old fashioned pandemic to do away with about 90% of us.
That would give some time for mother earth to heal itself.

Humans ARE the most destructive species on earth, bar none.

Driven by the two worst human traits, GREED and EGO ......

Perhaps, but what other ANIMAL species does so much to save other species as do humans to save the whales, the condors, the gnatcatcher, etc. etc. etc.. Which animal species OTHER THAN humans have hospitals and care centers for their fellow animals? Sure there are bad humans, but there are far more good ones... they just don't make the evening news as much!

norte - 6-18-2017 at 10:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Quote: Originally posted by Paco Facullo

Now this makes a lot of sense. Great argument for mankind. :lol:

danaeb - 6-18-2017 at 11:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Damn whales - why don't they set up their own whale hospitals? Sad. Guess they're not so smart after all. Freeloaders.

mtgoat666 - 6-18-2017 at 12:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Quote: Originally posted by Paco Facullo

Most humans are greedy or thoughtless. A minority is altruistic.
Half of all humans have sub-average intelligence - unfortunately these sub-average are allowed to hold public office and vote, witness the present trump administration debacle.

motoged - 6-18-2017 at 01:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by norte

Quote: Originally posted by David K

David,
Is that what you really think?

As your boy says....."sad" ....

Your comment "there are far more good ones... they just don't make the evening news as much!" is rather ironic :lol:

rts551 - 6-18-2017 at 01:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

Quote: Originally posted by norte

Quote: Originally posted by David K

David,
Is that what you really think?

As your boy says....."sad" ....

Your comment "there are far more good ones... they just don't make the evening news as much!" is rather ironic :lol:

Can't wait to see the gnatcatcher hospital. The whole statement is one for the ages.

Bajazly - 6-18-2017 at 01:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Perhaps, but what other ANIMAL species does so much to save other species as do humans to save the whales, the condors, the gnatcatcher, etc. etc. etc..

This is NOT a valid argument!

The only reason we have to put effort into saving these endangered species is because WE have F'ed them up in the first place. In nature void of humans, there is a natural balance of prey and predator. When the prey diminishes, the predators move on and the natural balance returns. Humans just rape and rape and when a resource is almost gone, we try and make amens to save what's left, mostly with little success.

In the natural world, again devoid of humans, rarely will a species decimate the environment to extinction so as they themselves are done.

BajaBreak - 6-18-2017 at 01:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bajazly

In the natural world, again devoid of humans, rarely will a species decimate the environment to extinction so as they themselves are done.

And certainly not over the course of only a few generations.

Everything is well set in it's way, so I just try to respect nature and enjoy what I can while I can. Some people's opinions are so over the top I can't take them seriously, and I can't believe some people seem to. I do have a sense of humor though, so I do appreciate the laughter from some of the earlier posts. It does help keep the site active.

dorado50 - 6-18-2017 at 01:43 PM

Most humans are greedy or thoughtless. A minority is altruistic.
Half of all humans have sub-average intelligence - unfortunately these sub-average are allowed to hold public office and vote, witness the present trump administration debacle.
[/rquote]

So where do you stand? Sub average, average, or above average? Wait, don't answer that you may embarrass yourself...lol