Please sign this petition

Quote: Originally posted by Archie

Except Terra its nothing about conservation, thats a mere façade. They harvest a lot of private donations, then buy land and asks for federal funds for conservation, but 99% of the money goes to administration, all the work is done almost for free from locals, and in the end they own the land and keep the cash. Thats the same method used by WildCoast, Pronatura and others. They have an investigation pending from UNPD (united nations development programme) for malpractice.

Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck

But when was the last time people volunteered and picked up nearly 2 TONS of trash anywhere in Baja.

Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck

And they get people to take "ownership" of the Preserves.

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Your complaint is silly, and unoriginal

Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck

But when was the last time people volunteered and picked up nearly 2 TONS of trash anywhere in Baja.

Quote: Originally posted by bajaguy

Maybe you should come to Punta Banda and help out when the locals pick up trash along the highway and the beach on a regular basis, or maybe you could help when those same locals, using their own money buy material to patch the numerous potholes on the road to La Bufadora........Shouldn't paint everybody with such a broad brush Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck   But when was the last time people volunteered and picked up nearly 2 TONS of trash anywhere in Baja.

The fences and gates are there to protect the delicate ecosystem. The gates are open not locked.
There are many unnecessary trails and roads so the intent is to keep the place from being trampled and torn up which is what happenes when there is no order.
So alot of the unnecesarry rodes and trails are closed now.
No ones access is blocked.
Just to prevent everyone from making their own road and destroying the place.

Please sign the Petition

[Edited on 10-19-2017 by fishbuck]

info@terrapeninsular.org
Subject line
"I JOIN THE PETITION"

I was alerted yesterday to this thread and while I consider Mike a friend, I have to call him out on several points where he is simply sharing baseless allegations and outright fabrications. There are lots of people sharing opinions on this case when they actually know or understand very little about any of the facts or history, much less Mexican law.

I am acutely aware of the facts and history as I have lived here among these fishermen whose families have carried on this fight for half a century. And no, I DO NOT benefit in any way from this personally other than personal satisfaction of seeing justice done.

I have spent the last 15 years learning about the actual facts and details of this case and instead of just throwing out allegations, I will give you the a step by step history of what transpired through the decades with this area. I have in my possession nearly a foot high of files containing some of the most relevant issues in this dispute that help document everything that I will share here. The actual files in this case add up to a room full of file cabinets.

It's a long story so read this when you have the opportunity to do so without any interruptions. I would suggest you turn off your TV and your cell phone ringer, make a pot of coffee and sit somewhere comfortable. The story is long but it is important that you take it all in before making a decision one way or another. The upside is that you will learn a lot about Mexican property law and maybe spur you to take another look at your own property title, for those of you who have purchased homes down here in Mexico.

Conflict in San Quintin Bay with Terra Peninsular

I have received several messages in my inbox asking about the escalating conflict between the fishermen / oyster farms in San Quintin Bay with Terra Peninsula, a non-profit organization that is dedicated to land preservation causes and who in 2012 purchased some bayside / coastal property from Rafael Orendain and his company - Crola, SA, a Mexican land developer. The sole mission of this business (Crola) was to create a mega-development in the San Quintin Bay, using property controlled (under legal dispute) by Rafael Orendain, one of the partners in Crola and whose family had been involved in a long running legal dispute involving the same property going back several decades to the late 1940’s.

In 2015, the Secretary of Agrarian, Territorial and and Urban Development (SEDATU), who had replaced the old Secretary of Agrarian Land Reform agency (SALR) in 2013, with the authorizing signature of a Supreme Court justice ordered the Baja California state recorded land titles held by Terra Peninsular for the San Quintin Bay and coastal properties they had purchased from Rafael Orendain and Crola back in 2012, to be revoked. The federal order then also instructed for the 10 properties to be recorded in the names of 9 local fishermen who were granted national land titles for the properties; the same fishermen who had maintained an historic claim on these properties for decades, some going back to the 1960's.

Terra immediately cried foul and filed a request seeking a court injunction against the title transfer action. The new property titles remain in the hands of the fishermen and the injunction request is still pending. Terra no longer holds any of the property titles but they are still attempting to enforce some ecological protection orders over the lands they had managed to obtain to be able to help fortify their claim to regain the titles.

In doing so, they have erected a series of fences and gates controlling access to the coastal properties south of us here in La Chorera and it has caused a lot of hard feelings in general with the local community that was accustomed to enjoy free access without any restrictions to those coastal areas.

Terra has ratcheted their fight up a notch, seeking out a very friendly television report that gave a very one sided view of the story, sharing several false and unsubstantiated allegations made by Terra while only showing 2 very short and highly edited clips of the fishermen's side of the story, completely omitting their strongest legal arguments from the story.

I guess they have fake news in Mexico too.

Terra and Orendain have been successful in controlling the storyline up until now. Both benefit from strong financial resources with well staffed organizations, good media and political contacts and both are fluent in English, helping them to get their message out to a broad base of support.

Now they and some of their supporters have begun circulating a petition, asking for help to "fight the corruption over the illegal taking of their titles". It rings true with many who have witnessed repeated cases of corruption down here in Mexico and without a strong voice in opposition presenting the other side of the story, it is easy to accept as factual.

The other side of the story is a group of families who have been fighting the Orendain family for half a century for control of the land around the San Quintin Bay, with many of them still working the local bay oyster farms.

The Orendain family, represented today by Rafael Orendain and whose grandfather was originally involved in this land dispute, claims control of the properties in question via their acquisition after a series of questionable land sale contracts that originated from the concession they were granted from 1947 to 1957.

The fishermen counter that those sales contracts of the bay properties were fraudulent based on several key points:

1. The disputed properties are clearly outside of the boundaries of the authorized concession map that Rafael Orendain agreed to and signed in the concession of 1947.
2. The concession required the Orendain family to subdivide the large land mass and sell the properties third parties, not themselves.
3. The concession ordered the Orendain family to register all land sales with SALR who would document that they were indeed “terrenos nacionales” included in the concession and then record the new titles. They did not record any of these sales with SALR.
4. Their concession was only for 10 years and clearly stated that any unrecorded land sales at the end of the 10 year period would revert back to the nation and remain “terrenos nacionales”. SALR made 3 separate findings over the decades since the Orendain concession expired, each time published in the Diario Oficial (Federal Register) and documenting the bayside/coastal properties in question to be “terrenos nacionales”.

The strongest legal argument by far for the fishermen is the first point than in fact the properties were never even included in the Orendain concession to begin with. The Orendain family over the years would produce another, different concession map that was never authorized by SALR or included as part of the concession. This new map just happened to include the bayside properties in question.

To try to get around the second point, the Orendain family created sales contracts for most of the high value bayside properties using a prestanombre and years later that same prestanombre would then sell the properties back to the Orendain family. That prestanombre who was holding millions of dollars in fraudulent land contracts was the Orendain family chauffeur. Rafael Orendain would then use these illegal sales contracts, taking them with a copy their new map – not the approved concession map – and then register the land sales with the registrar to obtain land titles. These were always fraudulent, illegal titles from the beginning.

The fact that Orendain family recorded the land sales directly instead of the concession order to register them first with SALR was most certainly because they knew that SALR would see the land parcels as outside of their concession and immediately reject them. The fact that the SALR would make repeated, identical findings over the years all agreeing that these parcels were indeed “terrenos nacionales” proves that exact point.

The Orendain and Terra side of the dispute have been well represented on both corporate media as well as social media, including many loyal supporters who share everything posted by Terra and most people supporting them actually have little to no knowledge of the real facts involved in ths dispute.

These fishermen Terra is now defaming with cries of fraud and corruption are my friends. I have invested many years living down here among them in their community, breaking bread together and becoming a member of their families in a way that you get to know them personally, their character and their values. But none of these fishermen speak English and today I would like to be their voice in this dispute. I want for you to hear their side of this long story and explain why they feel completely justified with the recent action of SEDATU over the 10 land titles, still waiting for the remaining 18 to be issued soon.

The video on Youtube is just a bit over 30 minutes long but completely documents the real facts in the case instead of just making allegations and will give you a much better idea of the COMPLETE story, not just bits and pieces that favor one side or the other. I will put all of this out there and let you be the judge of which side is in the right, but I think once more of the history comes to light it may just change some of the preconceived notions you may have had prior. All I ask is to follow the video to the end before making up your mind.

These fishermen have invested generations of hard work and effort to hold, preserve and protect these properties, using sustainable fishing techniques, eco-friendly fishing processes and were the very first defenders of the bay's eco-systems, successfully fighting to squash Orendain's large development that would have certainly ruined the bay forever. Where was Terra Peninsular back then?











[Edited on 7-30-2019 by BajaGringo]

Quote: Originally posted by shari

Fishbuck....is the lot you just bought in this disputed land?

I knew that there was something else, other than concern about those poor guys from TP.

Actually, if he would have said that his investment was in danger too, i would have signed this as an honest request of help, but trying to divert from the truth just to benefit himself its a d!ck move.

Quote: Originally posted by shari

thank you for the in depth history of this issue which is so very common...it explains alot about other land disputes and how they came about. Sorting it all out is a monumental task....akin to native land disputes in some areas in Canada. One thinks one is safe with a title but how that title was obtained can be questionable as in this case. I have personally seen how property lines are mysteriously and new properties mysteriously created where there were none etc. Fishbuck....is the lot you just bought in this disputed land?

Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck

The Orendains have a reputation in the area as being honest and ethical business people.

Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo

Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck   The Orendains have a reputation in the area as being honest and ethical business people. I guess you missed the part about one of the state civil cases Orendain fought over this land battle using a power of attorney given to him by Miguel Nava Casarrubias, one of the Orendain "prestanombres"? The very same Miguel Nava Casarrubias who was later discovered to have signed the POA nearly a year after he took up his final residence in a Tijuana cemetery? There is a reason why Orendain and his collaborators were brought up on charges of using fraudulent documents and perjury. Honest and ethical?

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Fishy, Ron is in business with the opposition, so he sees their side, by necessity. He is biased - as he has to be - he invested his money, so is just protecting his investment/investors.

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Some biases are morally superior.

Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck

Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo   Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck   The Orendains have a reputation in the area as being honest and ethical business people. I guess you missed the part about one of the state civil cases Orendain fought over this land battle using a power of attorney given to him by Miguel Nava Casarrubias, one of the Orendain "prestanombres"? The very same Miguel Nava Casarrubias who was later discovered to have signed the POA nearly a year after he took up his final residence in a Tijuana cemetery? There is a reason why Orendain and his collaborators were brought up on charges of using fraudulent documents and perjury. Honest and ethical? I do find that somewhat peculiar. I didn't miss it I'm just not sure I believe it. But that court case is over and Orendain won that battle. Turns out that death certificate was fake. My observation is that the commercial fisherman's case is largely based on one typo after another. They find a typo and try to use it to win their case. Orendain defeats it so they scrutinize these old documents until they find another typo and file again. This goes on over and over again. So these commercial fishermam just keep trying to chisle away property from the Orendains What do they have to lose? I also find it strange that the titles didn't get changed until after Orendain sold the property to Terra. Orendain is probably the only live witness to all this. The commercial fisherman's case is based on heresay and dead people and typos. So without Rafael to show up in court and refute the claims the titles miraculously get changed in a sneaky backroom deal.

MIke - Orendain lost that case on appeal when evidence of the fake POA came to light. You didn't see this?

This concession map of the bay area, surveyed by Orendain's own topographers and drawn up by Orendain's own civil engineer clearly leaving out the San Quintin Bay property was no typo Mike.

There is a reason why countless federal officials at the Secretary of Agrarian Land Reform and at the office of the Secretary of Agriculture and Development, the federal agency charged with determining national land status in Mexico - probably the closest thing down here we could compare to an official "title office", have REPEATEDLY determined for over half a century that those bay area properties were NEVER part of the original concession map and remained national lands.

That's a LOT of federal government officials working in different federal government agencies over the decades that ALL came to the EXACT SAME CONCLUSION.

So for there to have been corruption as you continue to allege, these same fishermen would have had to pay off countless hundreds of federal government officials over the decades, including the Mexican Supreme Court which refused to uphold the Orendain amparo and finally the supreme court justice who signed the final order.

That kind of corruption would have taken a lot more money than these properties are even worth Mike.

Open your eyes and use some common sense...




[Edited on 10-20-2017 by BajaGringo]