BajaNomad

Vaquita: the business of extinction

mtgoat666 - 12-7-2017 at 10:47 AM

Good article and vid documentary on the totoaba trade and san felipe, quite lengthy and detailed:

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/news/vaquita-business-of-ex...

Sad!

[Edited on 12-7-2017 by mtgoat666]

The Downside to Tasting Good

MrBillM - 12-7-2017 at 01:47 PM

It's only sad to see the Totoaba headed towards extinction because they tasted SO DAMNED GOOD.

Were I in a position to buy some of those fantastic Fillets before they're gone forever, I wouldn't hesitate.

Were Vaquita tasty ?

IF so, that IS sad.

Hook - 12-7-2017 at 02:03 PM

No, they weren't tasty. They were collateral damage in the quest for everything else that was tasty.

Bill, there are still white sea bass (actually a croaker, I believe) out there. They taste virtually the same. I believe totuava were just a very large croaker.

[Edited on 12-7-2017 by Hook]

mtgoat666 - 12-7-2017 at 02:20 PM


"a whole bladder can sell for up to $250,000 once it reaches China"

what kind of foolishness cause people to think a fish organ is an aphrodisiac?

and why did the chinese focus on a fish on the other side of the world?

silly people!

del mar - 12-7-2017 at 02:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Hook  
No, they weren't tasty. They were collateral damage in the quest for everything else that was tasty.

Bill, there are still white sea bass (actually a croaker, I believe) out there. They taste virtually the same. I believe totuava were just a very large croaker.

[Edited on 12-7-2017 by Hook]


next time you're sitting at alfonsina's having a beer look straight out at a famous high spot...if its crowded with gringo boats keep telling yourself they're catching WSB...;)

sancho - 12-7-2017 at 02:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  

what kind of foolishness cause people to think a fish organ is an aphrodisiac?














The same that think Rhino Horn, Black Bear parts, have
some mechanical value. I've been going to San Felipe
for 25 yrs., may be I missed it, but I've never have seen a fisherman driving an Italian sports car, nor the streets
flowing with never ending wealth



woody with a view - 12-7-2017 at 02:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  

what kind of foolishness cause people to think a fish organ is an aphrodisiac?

and why did the chinese focus on a fish on the other side of the world?

silly people.


Welp, there are over 2BILLION of them running around. Perhaps there is something to their foolishness.

del mar - 12-7-2017 at 02:41 PM

better to believe its an aphrodisiac than just a soup thickener?

woody with a view - 12-7-2017 at 03:19 PM

We’re all just passing thru!

willardguy - 12-7-2017 at 03:29 PM

"And the totoaba can be found only in a small area of ocean in Mexico’s Sea of Cortez, near the town of San Felipe, 120 miles south of the US border."

this is as far as I made it.....

Taster's Choice

MrBillM - 12-7-2017 at 05:20 PM

As often noted, every AH has an opinion, BUT I've tasted a LOT of fish (including White Sea Bass many times) over the last 60 + years and Totoaba was the BEST fish I've ever had.

Second being (maybe) the Rock Cod that we often (when I was a youngster) filled our boat up with off Catalina.

But, that's probably just fond memories of youth kicking in.

As a (meaningless) aside , Tilapia is tied with Catfish for the WORST.

and, yet, I've known many people who LOVE both.

It figures, though, that the current problem is a result of Oriental erection oddity. Those people seem to have a corner on Fetish.


motoged - 12-7-2017 at 05:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  

.....It figures, though, that the current problem is a result of Oriental erection oddity. Those people seem to have a corner on Fetish.


Well.... if erection troubles (et) were removed from the "fetish"....you would be left with "fish"... :biggrin:

The Vaquita Air Wars

MrBillM - 12-28-2017 at 10:29 AM

Reading the L.A. Times y Riverside Press-Enterprise ayer, I see where a Mexican fisherman in the Sea of Cortez was successful in shooting down one of the Sea Shepherd observation drones.

Given the likelihood that the drone would have gathered video prior to (and during) the assault, it seems likely that the government would be able to identify the shooter. IF they have the inclination.

It will be interesting to see whether any prosecution is pursued.

Whatever one thinks of the Totoaba as an endangered species and/or a food source, one should agree that reasonable actions should be taken to encourage its survival and netting it to extinction to satisfy sex-crazed Zipperheads is pretty disgusting.

bezzell - 12-28-2017 at 03:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  


what kind of foolishness cause people to think a fish organ is an aphrodisiac?



??
why do you think millions of people actually entertain the nonsense of a virgin birth?
why do you think millions of people actually believe if you ate a dead animal ... you'd consequently top up your protien tank?

its learned 'behavior', combined with a severe lack of critical thinking skills / curiosity

Apples, Oranges, Erections and Virgins

MrBillM - 12-28-2017 at 03:48 PM

I'm unaware that any mainstream religions have had a say on aiding Hard-Ons.

In any case, the belief in Aphrodisiacs is not analogous with Christian belief in the birth of J.C.

IF you accept that (whichever) God is Omnipotent, then ANY miraculous event is within his power.

As to eating dead animals ......................... If you're going to consume a protein source, what better way than something that tastes so damned good ?

Christianity has a lot going for it.

Wine and Bacon are right there at the top of the list.


bezzell - 12-28-2017 at 03:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  

As to eating dead animals ......................... If you're going to consume a protein source, what better way than something that tastes so damned good ?



:bounce::bounce::bounce: ladies and germs ...exhibit A :lol::lol:

bajabuddha - 12-28-2017 at 05:42 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/81110ec6-ca84-3378-ad11-a6ee424...

:bounce::bounce::bounce:Ladies and trolls, exhibit B :lol::lol:

bezzell - 12-28-2017 at 06:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bajabuddha  
https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/81110ec6-ca84-3378-ad11-a6ee424...

:bounce::bounce::bounce:Ladies and trolls, exhibit B :lol::lol:


:lol::lol: don't ever contemplate a science career there Senor Stinto Cinqo !!:lol:

Vegan Gone Wild

MrBillM - 12-28-2017 at 07:15 PM

Well, at least he didn't EAT them.

On a serious note, though, nobody should mind Vegans.

They've been around for (nearly ?) forever and made NO difference in our carnivorous habits while providing us with something to joke about.

As I've found with some of my co-workers in years past, their passionate indignity can often be fun to watch and poke fun at.

Well, it's time to light the BBQ and burn some Beef.

bezzell - 12-28-2017 at 07:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
Well, at least he didn't EAT them.

:lol::lol:

Well, it's time to light the BBQ and burn some Beef.


trust me ... I WANT you (AND your loved ones) to eat the cow, knowing the effect. pretty pls!? :lol:
(and don't forget all that good protein you're going to download :bounce::bounce:)

they're born every minute, somebody pointed out

[Edited on 12-29-2017 by bezzell]

Cowed Down ?

MrBillM - 12-28-2017 at 08:46 PM

There's that Righteous Vegan passion !

They SAY those things while their meaning is quite different.

But, they're great for playful ribbing. No pun intended.

Well, OK, maybe intended.

Anyway, having made it almost halfway through the Septuagenarian years as a happy carnivore (well, Omnivore, actually), when I finally croak it won't be much proof of anybody's nutritional theory, though I'm sure that a dedicated Vegan would disagree.

Let's all just keep on feeling good about ourselves.

I Will.




bezzell - 12-28-2017 at 09:31 PM

good for you, Bile. enjoy (including the meds)

Life IS Good .............

MrBillM - 12-29-2017 at 09:32 AM

............ And Meat makes it Better.

A Good Rib-Eye is (Alone) enough to make you believe in a Divine power.

bezzell - 12-29-2017 at 09:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
............ And Meat makes it Better.

A Good Rib-Eye is (Alone) enough to make you believe in a Divine power.


?
your feeble attempts (repeated) at 'ribbing' are obviously failing.
the brain is fueled 100% by carbs (not fat or protein)
maybe an adjustment of fuel is in order allowing you to pickup on said obvious? (and let's not just blame it on age) just sayin'

Getting Brained

MrBillM - 12-29-2017 at 11:55 AM

SO ........................... the POINT would be ?

Nothing that I've said would indicate that I thought meat was essential or advantageous to a healthy brain. Other than (obviously) the pleasure centers.

As Omnivores, we (mostly) clearly receive whatever nutrients necessary to maintain our physical and mental health.

Balance between healthful and (not so) healthful nutrition seems to be the key. With personal genetics being (in ALL aspects) a far greater influence. People live, die, get sick and stay healthy living the gamut of good and bad behavior.

I made a career working in mostly high-tech occupations requiring significant brainpower with moderate (or better) success and, in retirement, there hasn't been any noticeable decrease in other than my (once) notable memory. And, it's still better than most.

Of course, that could change in an instant. Quien Sabe ?

One of my many favorite stories is that of one of my wife's co-workers. She and her husband were devout Vegans who would lecture everyone constantly on the evils of meat. He was a REALLY fit-looking 48-year old we'd just seen at a friend's dinner party. Where he, of course, lectured regarding the Prime-Rib roast that was the featured main course.

Three days later, he went face down at the breakfast table. Massive coronary. Dead instantly.

I ventured a few jokes over that one. Which my wife thought were in extremely poor taste.

Funny, though.

Another favorite tale (which I couldn't tell at the time) was not actually Vegan, but involved a Hindu I knew who owned a small secluded motel in Indio where I'd take female friends I'd met now and then. Sitting around drinking a beer with him when we first met, he ventured that his (dot on the forehead) wife was very devout and strict, but that whenever he got the chance to go downtown alone, he loved to stop at McDonalds.

"I just LOVE those Big-Macs", he said.

A funny aside regarding that motel was that I stayed there once with my (then, but soon to be ex) wife when she was leaving Indio for Hicksville, Georgia. I made a point of immediately introducing her as my wife so that there would be no misunderstanding or careless words.

The problem with Vegans is that they take the whole business too seriously. While they "might" (and often do) say that it's simply a health-choice, conversations usually make it clear that it is as much a morality play in their minds as it is health.

Which is OK. THAT makes them FUN to Rib.

Eat drink and make maria for tomorrow is guaranteed to no man.


bezzell - 12-29-2017 at 12:34 PM

:lol::lol: the VAST majority of 'murderless nutritionists' are motivated by morality ... the health is just a documented beneficial bonus.
Again, maybe more sugar and less fat could help you getting things straight?

re your one vegan story ... :lol: ... just like buddha-belly ... don't bother contemplating science, it'd be a fail

now get out there and fire up the 'que ! (and don't forget those meds I guarantee you're currently taking)

the Vaquita is just one of MANY species going extinct on a DAILY basis (google it) with part attribution to the natural order ... but mostly due to one very clever species (animal)

homo sapien ... 'wise' ape? not even close. clever? hell yes, but wise .... nnnhhhh

off to go mess with some 'fisheridiots'. AMF

Tioloco - 12-29-2017 at 01:39 PM

Geez... And to think I avoid OFF-TOPIC

Food for Thought

MrBillM - 12-29-2017 at 02:21 PM

Science is immaterial to the Eat or not debate.

All (or most) of us consume food and drink (especially alcohol) which are potentially harmful and we do so willingly with the knowledge that it's not that good an idea. That's our choice.

What makes the Vegan business different (to its adherents) is that meat products necessitate ending an animal's life.

THEY consider that immoral. The rest of us don't. There is something of a middle-ground among those who'd rather not think about the killing and would (maybe) not consume if they had to do the killing, but are content to consume without being involved.

Society now is pretty much where it has been for a LONG time on the issue and nothing much has changed or likely will.

If you're a carnivore and believer in most religions, you've got God on your side with various animal exemptions. The Vegans will continue to make noise (louder at times), some will engage with them in defense and most people will ignore the debate while continuing to enjoy their Beef, Pork, Poultry, Fish and .........?

The principal driver in demand and consumption continues to be price and not health or morality.

Such is Life.

bezzell - 12-29-2017 at 02:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  
Geez... And to think I avoid OFF-TOPIC


If you can't make the connection btwn extinction (original topic) and a certain species' practises, I'm so, so sorry. carry on

[Edited on 12-29-2017 by bezzell]

bezzell - 12-29-2017 at 02:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
Science is immaterial to the Eat or not debate.

... crazily ignorant. maybe more sugar? :lol:

The principal driver in demand and consumption continues to be price and not health or morality.

... even more so!! its at least HALF the price to go murderless. omfg



oh well. carry on and don't forget those meds ;)

bezzell - 12-29-2017 at 02:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  

Society now is pretty much where it has been for a LONG time on the issue and nothing much has changed or likely will.



the current rate of change is nothing short of stunning. obviously not in your world.
you're a lil' out of touch there Bill. but carry on and say hi to the squirrels

bajabuddha - 12-29-2017 at 05:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by willardguy  
im wondering if this would work on a bezzell post? :?:



Nah, he'd prolly eat it...... and the t-paper too.

The LAST Word ........................

MrBillM - 12-30-2017 at 10:40 AM

From me (and for now), anyway, on the conflated Vegan vs. Extinction subject:

The primary motivation for the participation of humans in the loss of species (Vaquita in this case) is a result of greed and survival on the part of the fishermen involved facing a diminishing livelihood in that occupation. The Vaquita (and Totoaba) are now threatened most severely just as the African elephants are not as a food source, but for other value.

A change in dietary habits won't save animals hunted for those other reasons.

In fact, for the most part, the popularity of animals as a food source is more likely than not to help insure their continued existence in the modern age. That's certainly true of the most popular sources i.e. Cattle, Pigs and Chickens.

But for the Vegans like Bezzell, the battle is a moral fight representing and rejecting mankind's "accepted" superior position in the hierarchy of life.

At its most extreme, that position places the life of an ant on equal footing with that of man with many variations in between. The less extreme will qualify their position with the supposed equality of "sentient" life forms.

Which they are free to do and we are free to reject or simply ignore.

The Drone Incident

gringorio - 12-31-2017 at 05:50 PM

MrBillM is right, one of four fishermen in a panga in the Vaquita refuge shot down one of Sea Shepherds drones. The drone was equipped with a flir camera as you can see in the video below. It's one of several I flew on the same campaign last winter (there are always several backups in case one is lost). I have not heard yet if they caught the individuals. Given how things go it's very likely the Mexican navy was called to the scene.

It is a tough situation, especially given that cartel $ are inspiring fishermen to illegally set gill nets for totoaba. I can't blame them given the economies of San Felipe and El Golfo.

Sea Shepherd Drone Shot Down by Poachers

Barry A. - 12-31-2017 at 07:56 PM

It might be useful to remember that about 98% + of all creatures that have inhabited the earth have gone extinct over the eons-------most met their demise before mankind existed.

gringorio - 12-31-2017 at 08:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
It might be useful to remember that about 98% + of all creatures that have inhabited the earth have gone extinct over the eons-------most met their demise before mankind existed.


It might be useful to understand that the current extinction rate has increased due to human activities and that humans are causing the current mass-extinction.

It's not OK to suggest that the current extinctions are "normal" given all we know now.

weebray - 1-1-2018 at 09:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
It might be useful to remember that about 98% + of all creatures that have inhabited the earth have gone extinct over the eons-------most met their demise before mankind existed.


Sorry we had to end the year with one of the stupidest quotes of the year. Feliz ano Nuevo.

Attaboy Barry ...................

MrBillM - 1-1-2018 at 10:05 AM

Well, sort of.

While we need to look at the question of (inevitable) species extinction rationally and accept that what Barry said is factually correct, that should not be an excuse for inaction and disinterest in the ongoing phenomena for which WE (as mankind) are responsible.

Clearly, in the case of the Totoaba and (consequently the Vaquita, WE are entirely responsible.

The "ideal" of preserving EVERY species in which we have the power to do so appears preferable to many but, pragmatically, we always need to determine where the proper balance lies.

Saving a centipede, an ant or the like at the expense of worthy societal progress is fairly absurd while saving other species (if possible) may well be worth the effort and expense. EACH one is unique.

My (usually sarcastic) criticism of the Vaquita effort has largely been that it was a long lost cause. It's possible (but unlikely) that the Totoaba CAN be saved and the effort should be made.

Gill nets should have been BANNED completely decades back. Short of doing so, there will NEVER be a sustainable solution to the fisheries crisis.


Barry A. - 1-1-2018 at 01:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
Well, sort of.

While we need to look at the question of (inevitable) species extinction rationally and accept that what Barry said is factually correct, that should not be an excuse for inaction and disinterest in the ongoing phenomena for which WE (as mankind) are responsible.

Clearly, in the case of the Totoaba and (consequently the Vaquita, WE are entirely responsible.

The "ideal" of preserving EVERY species in which we have the power to do so appears preferable to many but, pragmatically, we always need to determine where the proper balance lies.

Saving a centipede, an ant or the like at the expense of worthy societal progress is fairly absurd while saving other species (if possible) may well be worth the effort and expense. EACH one is unique.

My (usually sarcastic) criticism of the Vaquita effort has largely been that it was a long lost cause. It's possible (but unlikely) that the Totoaba CAN be saved and the effort should be made.

Gill nets should have been BANNED completely decades back. Short of doing so, there will NEVER be a sustainable solution to the fisheries crisis.



I agree with you on this, Bill, 100%. As for other's comments: I do not think I am responsible for how other's choose to interpret what I said to suit their own mind-set.


weebray - 1-1-2018 at 06:47 PM

A spade is just what you call a spade.

Spades and Such

MrBillM - 1-2-2018 at 10:53 AM

The thing IS .................................... it (the FACTUAL 90 percent statement) is not really pertinent to the Vaquita/Totoaba debate given that, unlike many (most ?) species extinctions, there is no example of natural forces as a factor. Their endangerment and likelihood of extinction is entirely man-made.

Emotions tend to run high in these kinds of debates with the rhetoric following the same path.

On a (semi ?) related subject, there is a CNN special scheduled for debut mid-January titled "Trophy". The subject (according to the trailers) being BIG-GAME hunting. A flagrant (in my opinion) example of something very ugly in human nature.

Having known many so-called "Sport" hunters (including family members) since childhood, I have never been able to understand the mental processes at work which make the killing of such animals enjoyable.

Despite what many of them have said, it's NOT the skill required. The hundreds of clay pigeons that I've "killed" demonstrates that as well as a live one.

Barry A. - 1-2-2018 at 11:27 AM

I should have left out of my comment the "-----man caused-----" part, because it really muddied the water of the point I was trying to make. IMO, we humans get way too wound up emotionally by ANYTHING going extinct. In reality, in the very long run, "extinction" happens all the time for a myriad of reasons. However, I won't quibble with generally our efforts being noble in trying to save the Vaquita and the Tortuava, as I said.

As for Trophy Hunters, I totally agree with Bill, and will never really understand the attraction, and yes, it does worry me also about people that engage in same.. Several "meat hunters" in my Family, but no "Trophy hunters", I don't believe. Probably the same emotions, either way.

On edit: Regarding extinction: I have always thought that Man is part of the "natural" scene, so his influencing extinction is not unique in the scheme of things "natural"? I dunno?!?!?!?

[Edited on 1-2-2018 by Barry A.]

Mankind and Nature

MrBillM - 1-2-2018 at 06:30 PM

SO, a logical (if extreme) extension of man's actions being simply another example of nature at work would be ..................

Concluding that someone shot dead became extinct due to Natural Causes ?


Barry A. - 1-2-2018 at 11:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
SO, a logical (if extreme) extension of man's actions being simply another example of nature at work would be ..................

Concluding that someone shot dead became extinct due to Natural Causes ?



Assuming that mankind has simply evolved 'naturally', as is true with all the earths creatures, then anything man does is "natural" when taken in that context. Don't confuse me with examples of possible or hypothetical "Natural Causes" like individual incidences-----apples and oranges--------we are talking species-extinction, not individual deaths in this thread.

weebray - 1-3-2018 at 09:01 AM

https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/pricey-swim-bladders-attrac...

Au Contraire Mon Ami

MrBillM - 1-3-2018 at 10:46 AM

The promoted and accepted advocacy for the special status of Man in the hierarchy of life IS ........................... As the most sentient being on earth, WE have developed a thinking process (including a conscience) which places us beyond the natural urges. Such is the intellectual bedrock of our social and legal compact.

As such, WE cannot simply categorize and dismiss OUR actions as being the consequence of nature.

There is NO destructive natural urge or action which might influence us that we don't have the capability and responsibility to overcome.

WE don't have nature as an excuse as do less sentient species.

One thing that mostly ALL generally agree on ................ Atheist, Agnostic, Religious ............... is that MAN is responsible for his actions.

Even most (if not all) dictionaries when defining Nature, note that Man is in a separate category from other natural phenomena.

No "those genes made me do it" for us.

A dog may know that it's hot outside. WE know WHY.

Barry A. - 1-3-2018 at 11:47 AM

Bill--------As a foundational concept, or course you are correct, both legally and morally. However, this concept assumes that all individual humans have the mental capacity to KNOW societally accepted right from wrong , which is highly questionable and variable as is displayed constantly. Thank God that we have a legal system in the USA that tries to sort that all out, and produces results that are appropriate.

Still, I totally accept your point, and applaud your eloquence in presenting it.

SAVE the Vaquita and Tortuava!!!! (OK?)


weebray - 1-4-2018 at 08:57 AM

I guess he's never been to West Virginia.

gringorio - 1-14-2018 at 01:21 AM

Sea Shepherd is doing more than the Mexican government has ever done. They are out there right now, finding and destroying illegal gillnets:

Sea Shepherd Vaquita