BajaNomad

Stop killing the babies!

Cancamo - 3-1-2018 at 01:43 PM

Getting real tired of seeing photos small, immature dorado held up by smiling, clueless clients at various sportfishing charters. Although for the moment they are numerous and out number the legitemate keepers, they are the future of the species. Considering dorado under 10 lbs. yield very little in fillets, especially the brood stock females, it is not only ignorant but wasteful to kill these small fish. I saw a cruiser gaff, and club two tiny dorado yesterday to the cheers of the "sportfishing" clients. Not only does dorado flesh require care in handling, (filet and cool ASAP, never freeze), these two specimens, if processed properly, would maybe provide a few tacos at best.
Considering dorado are one of the fastest growing fish in the sea, please insist that your clients release all but the larger males. If you are using live bait simply cut the line above the hook while never removing the fish from the water. If you are pulling artificials, employ barbless hooks and do the same.
Continuing to post photos of these small dorado on your promotional materials and web sites not only condones bad, non-sustainable practice, it also all threatens the future of your business. Just for a photograph? Embarrasing!
If any of you fishermen read the promos, you know whom I'm talking about. If these guys don't know better, than they don't belong in the business. If they do know better, they are just greedy pendejos.

Try a 32"-36" minimum and no female policy.
As if the commercial poachers aren't doing enough damage to this fishery on the mainland.

Sueltalo Por Favor!

4x4abc - 3-1-2018 at 03:00 PM

killing is fun and big business - it'll stop when the fish are gone

freediverbrian - 3-1-2018 at 03:40 PM

I am all for conservation and fish management. And take of too many is hurting the the population. But the taking of the smaller fish and leaving the bigger fish for brood stock in the correct thing to do. The big bulls and cows got big because of genes, and smarts they produce many times more eggs and sperm for reproduction than the small fish. I am glad that more people are concerned about conservation.

Beagle - 3-1-2018 at 04:22 PM

I'm not an Ichthyologist by any means, but don't the big fish/bulls start out as smaller? How does one know if they are keeping one that is of the elite gene pool or one that is just small? Just curious.
Quote: Originally posted by freediverbrian  
I am all for conservation and fish management. And take of too many is hurting the the population. But the taking of the smaller fish and leaving the bigger fish for brood stock in the correct thing to do. The big bulls and cows got big because of genes, and smarts they produce many times more eggs and sperm for reproduction than the small fish. I am glad that more people are concerned about conservation.

motoged - 3-1-2018 at 04:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Beagle  
I'm not an Ichthyologist by any means, but don't the big fish/bulls start out as smaller? How does one know if they are keeping one that is of the elite gene pool or one that is just small? Just curious.


Interesting question....maybe best answered with "throw the small ones back".

But I am not a fisher....some respect the sustainability notion....some just keep what they catch and eat them.....

willardguy - 3-1-2018 at 05:03 PM

I wouldn't have any qualms about eating a 10lb Dorado......sorry:coolup:

billklaser - 3-1-2018 at 05:14 PM

Amen, leave the small fish alone. Agree, 10#'s is too small.

bajabuddha - 3-1-2018 at 05:25 PM

The OP is talking to the Sport Fishery people. It's definitely a dichotomy to them; a happy camper with a below-average fish is better than a skunked one. Good for business, good for more charters, BAD for the fishery. The key word here is SCRUPLES. The bigger issues here are the commercial trawlers harvesting by the ton and the regulations and the lack of enforcement that goes with the territory. The sport-fishers need to police themselves is the point. The bigger problem needs more policing, period.... but isn't that the story of life in general these days?

Me in my lil' 14'er inflatable, i'll take a small one in to cook for dinner. Usually MUCH better dining anyway for one or two people. All scenarios have justification.

LukeJobbins - 3-1-2018 at 07:25 PM

Sorry for the long post but you hit a sensitive subject with me.

There are always two ways of looking at things. Simple fact is, I don’t personally know of anyone that goes over the fish limits in Mexico or the USA. Two dorado per person per day with a max of 15 fish per trip(multi day). Dorado are extremely plentiful, extremely good for promoting business, and fairly fun to fight.

If you take your outlook on life we should stop building new houses because it kills nature, stop buying new cars and just fix the one you have, or heck don’t even drive(pollution). Heck let’s just slow down every industry for the good of the planet. Sorry, that went a bit extreme.

Obviously catch and release is best but most people pay to catch fish not to release them. I work on a sport boat out of SD and it is sad to see babies killed but It’s the customers choice to keep or not. They are paying for it, and out of all the species dorado are the ones you shouldn’t be worried about. They can be more picky then all other species(excluding bft), and they reproduce and grow at staggering rates. If you want things changed go to the government. Ask any of my coworkers, it’s hard to get me to argue for killing fish(they all think I’m a wimpy hippie), but honestly I just don’t see a problem with businesses conducting business so long as they don’t go over legal limit. The reason they are catching so many, is because there are so many. I think they should add a size limit to yellow tail, but that’s a different topic.

mtgoat666 - 3-1-2018 at 07:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by LukeJobbins  


If you take your outlook on life we should stop building new houses because it kills nature, stop buying new cars and just fix the one you have, or heck don’t even drive(pollution). Heck let’s just slow down every industry for the good of the planet. Sorry, that went a bit extreme.

.


Not extreme.
If we all conserved a little, bred a little less, our planet would be cleaner and less crowded, and better for all.

advrider - 3-1-2018 at 07:56 PM

Feeling like I'm doing my part to save the planet, I never reproduced! I must have some built up brownie points for that. Think I'll go buy a new two stroke and a big ass truck to haul it in....

Hook - 3-1-2018 at 08:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by LukeJobbins  
Dorado are extremely plentiful, extremely good for promoting business, and fairly fun to fight..............They are paying for it, and out of all the species dorado are the ones you shouldn’t be worried about. They can be more picky then all other species(excluding bft), and they reproduce and grow at staggering rates.


You lost all credibility with me when you made these two statements. Clearly, you are either a relative newbie in fishing Mexico or you are completely unaware of the dorado fishery in the Sea of Cortez. But San Diego boats don't fish in here, so maybe that explains.

Dorado picky? Oh, come on. You may not have presented what they wanted at a given time or maybe they get spooked around a 65+ foot sportfisher. But they are one of the most easily taken fish on the surface. I have seen them ignore live bait at times (very unusual) but that usually means they want cut bait, for some reason.

Yes, there can be years when their quantity appears unlimited along the Pacific coast of Baja. But the trend is clear.

The dorado fishery is in collapse in the Sea. And it isnt because of sportfishermen taking the fraction of 1% that they take, including the SD fleet. It IS because of "business conducting business" as you put it. Except that dorado are not allowed to be taken commercially in Mexican waters. But the wrinkle in "business conducting business" is that Mexican fishery officials look the other way at commercial fishing of dorado. THAT is part of the "business", too.

It's truly laughable that ANY blame should fall on sportfishers for creating this situation. Only ignorance of the situation can explain it. But the crisis that the commercials have brought on has created a desperation on the part of sportfishers to keep ANY dorado they catch, because they have become so rare. It isn't right, but it isn't unexpected. When they are faced with overt and illegal overfishing by commercials, it's not surprising that this desperation sets in.

Keep in mind that the longlines that are set to catch most ANYTHING (marlin, dorado, turtles) are keeping dorado below 5 lbs. All you have to do is go into most any seafood restaurant in the warm months and dorado are on the menu. Where are they getting all that dorado, if it isn't being gotten commercially? Outside of Mexican waters? Yeah, right...........

Dorado cant ".........reproduce and grow at staggering rates" if they never even reach sexual maturity.

I am hoping that your naivete about the dorado fishery is just not being aware, and not some concerted effort by the SD sportfishing fleet to smooth this over. I doubt it is. The SD sportfishing fleet has always been about sustaining the fisheries they target. Anything else would be bad for their business in the long term.

I have to agree with a previous poster. Having traveled in Mexico for nearly fifty years and having lived down here for the last ten, the corruption that allows this situation won't end until the last dorado is killed. Just like the vaquita.

[Edited on 3-2-2018 by Hook]

willardguy - 3-1-2018 at 08:59 PM

from BD....fascinating

https://www.bdoutdoors.com/dorado-dolphin-mahi-mahi/

LukeJobbins - 3-1-2018 at 09:41 PM

Actually my knowledge has to do with working with sac, the ccfa, scrips institution, dfg, sagapra, and conapesca. And yes dorado are historically pickier eaters than other species. That isn’t to say if they are hungry they won’t eat what you have, and every species has wide open bites, including the elusive blue fin.

I honestly cannot attest to whether commercial boats are harvesting dorado in baja but it is illegal and if you report the boat with hull number to the Ensenada office they will pull the boats license. Local enforcement may be bribed or just not care but Ensenada has been cracking down lately on permits licenses and catches.

There is a lot of research out there but this is probably the easiest to read for the average attention span.
https://www.sportfishingmag.com/dorado-deconstructed#page-17

Dorado in warm areas(baja) can reproduce in as little as 4 months from birth weighing less than five pounds(personally seen the eggs in tiny dorado. And the average age of death naturally for bulls is well under two years. 2 years is the maximum life span. I couldn’t find the research in writing but I remember a scrips researcher telling me they can reproduce 3 times a year in optimal water temperatures and conditions. That means literally hundreds can be born in one year by one mature female.

I mean no disrespect and I am a firm believer in only keeping what you will use and I tell that to every customer but it’s the right of customers to take their limit.

Once again dorado in Baja is reserved for sport fishing only, so if you see something wrong report it! In Ensenada and the local offices. And if you feel so inclined call up sea shepherd because last I heard they have permanent residence in Baja.

aguachico - 3-1-2018 at 11:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cancamo  


Try a 32"-36" minimum and no female policy.
As if the commercial poachers aren't doing enough damage to this fishery on the mainland.

Sueltalo Por Favor!


Catch two, eat two. Move along.

mtgoat666 - 3-2-2018 at 06:58 AM

Quote: Originally posted by willardguy  
from BD....fascinating

https://www.bdoutdoors.com/dorado-dolphin-mahi-mahi/


Live fast, die young!

Sounds like dorados breed like rabbits, and the OP is worrying about a nothing burger.

Hook - 3-2-2018 at 09:13 AM

Luke, good to see that you are more aware of the situation than I thought.

But the biggest problem, even if you report a violation, is that ENFORCEMENT IS RARE TO ALMOST NON-EXISTENT. Fishery officials are paid to look the other way.

I see it everywhere down here. Money over protection of her natural resources. The US, Canada and many other Latin American countries (Costa Rica, Panama) are serious about protecting their resources.

Mexico isn't. In Mexico, EVERYTHING is for sale. Including, unfortunately, scruples and morals. There is a pervasive desperation to grab anything they can get their hands on. The cartels find this desperation very handy in recruiting members.

But maybe this is a mainland thing.

It will only get worse if Mexico moves farther away from the US and closer to China. China is a far larger market.

bajaric - 3-2-2018 at 11:45 AM


Considering that dodos are fast growing and prolific breeders might it be some other factor besides overfishing that is resulting in their alleged decline in the SOQ? Quoted from the article above:

"It is estimated that a dorado in a forage-rich environment can grow up to one pound per week".

Thus, one might consider if something may be reducing "forage", for example, the Hoover Dam, or perhaps 2 stroke outboard motors, by reducing the amount of plankton, which is at the bottom level of the food chain.
Its all about the plankton --

[Edited on 3-2-2018 by bajaric]

JoeJustJoe - 3-2-2018 at 03:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Hook  
Luke, good to see that you are more aware of the situation than I thought.

But the biggest problem, even if you report a violation, is that ENFORCEMENT IS RARE TO ALMOST NON-EXISTENT. Fishery officials are paid to look the other way.

I see it everywhere down here. Money over protection of her natural resources. The US, Canada and many other Latin American countries (Costa Rica, Panama) are serious about protecting their resources.

Mexico isn't. In Mexico, EVERYTHING is for sale. Including, unfortunately, scruples and morals. There is a pervasive desperation to grab anything they can get their hands on. The cartels find this desperation very handy in recruiting members.

But maybe this is a mainland thing.

It will only get worse if Mexico moves farther away from the US and closer to China. China is a far larger market.


Oh no more Mexico bashing by Hook!

What else is new?

Reading the posts by Cancamo, and LukeJobbins, they are not so much blaming the sportfishing charters, for the collapse of the dorado fish in Baja.

If fact both say the dorado fish are numerous and fast growing, which is usually true, but in Baja, the dorado, fish has been over fished by commercial interests.

So Hook is correct, about the decline of the dorado, in Baja, and he points to the main cause, commercial fisherman, and illegal fishing.

But both Cancamo, and LukeJobbins, topic main points are about careless uncaring sport fishermen, or charter boat captains, who is in example below, where clubbing two tiny dorado fish to the cheers of the sportfishing clients!

Hook, completely ignores or misses that point about sadistic sports fishermen, who get off torturing, clubbing, or killing the dorado for their jollies and because the dorado puts up a good fight and is a challenge to catch.

LukeJobbins, sounds like he should get out of the business, because he has a real problem, watching sports fishermen kill, babies, so much for catch and release.

Listening(reading) Hook, he makes it out that sport fisherman, are heroes to both the environment and fish like the dorado, and the Mexicans are the bad guys here.

I'm with LukeJobbins, who seems conflicted about killing fish, except I'm on the side of the fish, and against sports fishermen, who hunts fish for mainly sport.

I see the sport fishermen, the same way I see hunters on dry land who kill defenseless animals It's not a fair fight, and it's sadistic even if the fish lives.

From: Cancamo How disgusting!

I saw a cruiser gaff, and club two tiny dorado yesterday to the cheers of the "sportfishing" clients. Not only does dorado flesh require care in handling,"



[Edited on 3-2-2018 by JoeJustJoe]

BigOly - 3-2-2018 at 04:02 PM

This is some of the problem---
http://www.foxnews.com/great-outdoors/2018/01/24/fisherman-m...

LukeJobbins - 3-2-2018 at 04:16 PM

Technically you club dorado and wahoo because they are dangerous on deck you can spike most other fish but dodos go nuts on deck and are nicknamed ball slappers. Wahoo have razor sharp teeth and it’s too dangerous to spike them. If someone is clubbing a fish for fun, well that’s a personal problem.

And no I have no plan to leave the industry. I love my job and I’m stoked to help people catch their first fish or their best fish. And I get paid to be on the water.

Sorry for everyone who is offended by fishing, but it’s fun, there are responsible fishermen out there, fish taste great, and life is unfair and I’m done with this topic. Thanks

Hook - 3-2-2018 at 07:27 PM

More myopia by JJJ, who never goes to Mexico and never fishes and always has an opinion based on what he reads, instead of experiences.

What a pathetic life. Living it through the internet.

But he is, at least, predictable...........

[Edited on 3-3-2018 by Hook]

Paco Facullo - 3-2-2018 at 07:36 PM

Well I guess than, that me wiping my finger across an ant trail and laughing at them as they get "lost" really isn't THAT funny ???

Well, it's better than taking a magnifying glass and burning the pants off the ants , isn't it ?