joerover - 3-11-2019 at 03:28 PM
Is it a crime to hide history?
History repeats itself over and over and over again.
Hiding historyhelps no one. Hiding the crimes against the indigenous peole of Baja does not help anyone, exept the criminals who commit the crimes.
Hiding genocide against the indigenous Mayan people of Guatemala, just makes it eaiser to happen again. Deleting the post about thousands of skulls
of the unreforemed indigenous people of Peru, makes it eaiser for the criminals to do it again
Deleting the link to Hilarys conection to genocide of the indigenous peole of Guatemala hurts you and your family. Dont hide the truth.
fishbuck - 3-11-2019 at 03:40 PM
Shine a bright light on the truth.
Educated people will draw their own conclusions and act accordingly.
Others may just look away...
[Edited on 3-11-2019 by fishbuck]
joerover - 3-11-2019 at 06:32 PM
Before the missions, what were the religious beliefs of the Baja indians?
The Pai Pai, Kumeyaay, Cochimí, Kiliwa,?
Davidk says he has leters from the Padres. For accurate reporting he needs to tell a story from an indians point of view. Did they volunter to build
missions? Were they lied to and tricked? They did have a belief system. Building houses for the dead to live in is much older than christian belief.
Why were all the texts of the Maya destroyed?
Popol Vuh , or Book of the People , is a collection of narratives containing the myths and historical facts of the Maya, and is based on the
manuscript of the Dominican priest Francisco Ximenez . Unfortunately, most of their literature and writings were destroyed during the invasion of the
Spanish in the 18 th century, making Popol Vuh a valuable piece of work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIAzWOqo1fY
The priests erased history.
Did they destroy a link to Egypt and the Olmec?
Did the library at Alexanderia burn?
Why erase history, so a handfull can profit?
Why delete the crimes of today¿?
[Edited on 3-12-2019 by joerover]
caj13 - 3-11-2019 at 09:48 PM
for someone with ypour keen knowledge of history - here are 2 numbers that are running around inside your head, and makin g you crazy with angst and
fear
negative 3 million
Negative 8 million
sorry man, the numbers don't lie!
David K - 3-11-2019 at 11:59 PM
Understand joerover, you are speaking about many different people but lumping them together with a common blame.
I can't tell the Indians point of view because they did not know how to write. The petroglyphs likely all came from before the Spanish arrived.
The Jesuits 1683-1768 did no imprison or lock up Indians in their missions. They were free to come and go and be nomadic as always. The enticement was
the food offered in payment for the physical work of building missions, walls, forts, roads, farmlands... and these acts of labor were for the future
community.. a community of Natives and Mexican mainlanders, and Europeans. You know, that "Takes a village" thing! There was punishment and a shooting
during an incident with stealing that happened at the San Bruno project. Overall, the hundreds of Indians who came to Padre Kino were very supportive,
even when food had almost run out and rations were cut.
The dark times for the Indians began when the benevolent Jesuits were wrongly accused by jealous forces in the Spanish court and forced out of the
land they once controlled as a theocracy... as well as the rest of the Western Hemisphere. The Franciscans (Saint Juípero Serra was their president)
arrived to regain authority over the missions but the natives were now under civil authority (Spanish Government) and were treated as pawns. That is
where the sadness lies. Every man woman child (450) was forced to leave their ancestral homes around Mission Dolores and Mission San Luis Gonzaga
(310) and marched south to TodosSantos into the land of hostile tribes. They all would soon die.
pacificobob - 3-12-2019 at 07:55 AM
the missions, just like the silver mines both in baja and the mainland were built/staffed with slave labor. does anyone think the jesuits were doing
their own rock lifting while the indians watched? to imagine that was the case is delusional. women and children were kept captive to ensure a good
"work ethic". a visit to the museum in batopillias chihuahua makes this clear.
gueribo - 3-12-2019 at 11:40 AM
There do exist some accounts from native perspectives, and it's very important to hear those voices. One is found in the anthropological paper "Kiliwa
Texts: When I Have Donned My Crest of Stars" (Mauricio J. Mixco, 1983).
In 1969, the author conducted a series of interviews with Rufino Ochurte (1890-1977), a Kiliwa elder who shared the oral tradition of his people. The
Kiliwa are a northern Baja tribe, in the vicinity of missions Santo Domingo and San Pedro Mártir. Though small, the tribe survives today, though the
number of native speakers are few.
Mauricio Mixco worked to preserve both the language and the history. (Peveril Meigs also did ethnographic work with the Kiliwa in the 1930s, but
Mixco's work has the advantage of being in the native language.)
Here's one account from the interviews called "The Coming of the Friars." The style of discourse is circular—not linear as other cultures relate
stories. Ideas are repeated and restated as the story flows, moving back and forth through the narrative.
There were unwashed (unbaptized) people in this land. In the mountains, there were the Kiliwa people. A friar came (literally, "tonsured-head").
No one drew near. Because of that he'd just lash out and grab them. He did that once or twice. He'd do it to all the people that way. He'd catch them;
when they'd get used to him, they wouldn't flee.
"Well, the way I am--it's really fine," they'd say. That was the way that, one or two at a time, they would arrive. Until there were many people at
the mission. They made people work, whipping them when they were uncooperative. They gave them corn gruel to drink so that they'd work. They
constructed houses as best they could. Although they didn't earn anything, they did eat. To those with a family, they gave a sackful of corn. They'd
eat at the mission.
If someone was disobedient, they'd grab him and whip him. They would dunk people to baptize them. "This is a good thing I am doing!" he'd declare when
finished. "You might tell the others," he would say. They'd come and tell about it: "This man is going to do that to us!" "No indeed! One never knows
what might happen!" they'd answer. No one at all would come near. And so it continued for some time.
Slowly they took hold of the people. In the end, every one of the people came to know the friar. They all became docile. There was no one who would
decide for himself where to go anymore.
There weren't many who went to the mission. They'd come around very little. While the friar was about his things, they'd watch and comment. They
slowly began to draw closer. Yet, though they approached, they really didn't hang around very much. They'd say, "It's alien! It's evil!" "You never
know," they'd say. They'd remain at a distance. By proselytizing he kept people away. Eventually the friar ruled the people completely.
There were those who understood the Spanish language. They'd declare, "Well, he's saying this and he says it's like that." They would explain to the
others what they didn't understand about what he was doing or saying. They'd say those things also.
They say we didn't speak Spanish too fluently. They'd understand one or two words at first. They would be sponsored as godchildren. And so they
gathered the people up. He could have taught them to read, but he obviously didn't. If he had, all these people would be educated. But he didn't; he
just baptized them. He really mocked them, it would seem.
David K - 3-12-2019 at 12:06 PM
Thank you, gueribo, for sharing that!
This was in the Dominican mission period between 1775 and 1822 for Santo Domingo (San Pedro Mártir was active from 1794-1811), and as late as 1850
when the last Dominican missionary left northern Baja.
I too have read of such treatment by both the Spanish government and missionaries who replaced the Jesuits.
gueribo - 3-12-2019 at 12:22 PM
Sadly, the Jesuits also participated in lashings, punishments, and executions for natives who resisted the colonizing force in their territory.
Robert Jackson documents one such account, of which there are others: "In the 1730s a shaman shot an arrow at Jesuit Franz Wagner, missing the
missionary by inches. The shaman was executed and his body hung in public as an example to others, and other Indians involved in the assassination
attempt were whipped."
Johann Jakob Baegert, a Jesuit priest, gives his own account of the response to one form of native resistance:
"[The native] talent for feigning a sudden and severe illness and letting themselves be carried over many miles to the mission could almost be called
a custom. A good whipping, however, would quickly restore most of them to health . . . the reason for such make-believe and disgusting lies is either
to escape work . . . or to escape punishment which they may incur for their villainous actions . . . for all other misdeeds the culprit is either
given a number of lashes with a leather whip on his bare skin, or his feet are put into irons for some days, weeks, or months."
fishbuck - 3-12-2019 at 01:44 PM
Very informative. Thanks for sharing.
And thank you all for discussing it like ladies and gentlemen.
And still a bit spirited.
Very enjoyable to read.
The Answer is CLEAR .....................
MrBillM - 3-12-2019 at 03:19 PM
The Aborigine descendants should take their case to the World Court and present their evidence.
Such as it is.
Make those Spaniards apologize and PAY !
Those of you Powwow Pals here and elsewhere can file briefs in support of the native Kimosabes.
Surely, justice will be done.
Honest Injun !
David K - 3-12-2019 at 03:45 PM
Learn from history, but don't erase history because you don't like what you learned.
Hook - 3-12-2019 at 04:42 PM
Is it any wonder that Pompano chooses not to post here anymore?
pacificobob - 3-12-2019 at 05:55 PM
i think there is a good reason for that.