BajaNomad - Cartel Massacre

Maybe some context for those who don't know what happened in Sonora, a few miles south of Arizona?

Report of an American family traveling to a wedding was gunned down on the highway in their van or SUV. Dead include three women and 5 children. Twin 6 month olds, strapped in car seats burned alive.. other bloody children found at the scene.

Arriving after the event was the grandfather who video taped the burnt vehicle.

President Trump has offered to help the President of Mexico to rid them of these "monsters".

You're off by two states. This happened south of Texas, according to the maps I've seen.

Mr. Bills - 11-5-2019 at 09:58 AM

You're off by two states. This happened south of Texas, according to the maps I've seen.

According to NBC:

". . . Mexican government authorities said the family of three women and 14 children were on their way from Galeana, Chihuahua, to Bavispe, Sonora, and were attacked near the border between the two states at about 1 p.m. local time. . . ."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/mexico-deploys-forces-rep...

It is a tragedy that should not go unpunished regardless of the exact location where it occurred or the reasons why.

David K - 11-5-2019 at 09:59 AM

Hook: News showed a map of Sonora, plus said it was in Sonora, which is not south of Texas. Bad maps on the other network?

Edit: Thanks to Mr. Bills and Doug for the confirmation that my source (Fox News) knows where the mass killing was located.

On the local news here in San Diego, they interviewed a family member who confirmed it happened close enough to the family's Sonora ranch that they heard the gunfire and saw the smoke.
They were going to a town just across the state border in Chihuahua for a wedding.

[Edited on 11-5-2019 by David K]

Mr. Bills - 11-5-2019 at 10:02 AM

The story from the Wall Street Journal, which includes a map:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/relatives-say-at-least-5-u-s-ci...

At least 9 LeBaron family members, mostly kids, killed in Mexico

BajaNomad - 11-5-2019 at 10:04 AM

'U.S. Ambassador to Mexico Christopher Landau said in a tweet that Mexican authorities had informed their U.S. counterparts that the dead included three women and six children.'

'70 miles south of Douglas, Arizona'

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lebaron-mexico-family-reports-m...

'They left 6 of Dawnas kids on the side of the road and took off. My aunt Dawnas son Devon hid some of his shot and wounded siblings in the bushes and ran all the way back to town for help.'

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1016294642...

mtgoat666 - 11-5-2019 at 10:54 AM

While the attack is gruesome and shocking, there may be more to the story. That polygamy cult is not a group of angels.
If elinvestig8r were around, perhaps he could inform about the cult, he escaped from them.

Hook - 11-5-2019 at 11:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Bills

The story from the Wall Street Journal, which includes a map:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/relatives-say-at-least-5-u-s-ci...

Yeah, that's about a hundred mile west of the map I saw.

Many reports that this family has had prior trouble with the cartels in the area. Very outspoken about them. Also issues with water rights. Supposedly, family members had been kidnapped before.

Hook - 11-5-2019 at 11:04 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaTed

A bunch of cartel idiots are going to be killed today for what they did.
The double edge sword of chaos.

Nope. Just a double-armed hug from AMLO. :rolleyes:

Mr. Bills - 11-5-2019 at 11:07 AM

. . . Many reports that this family has had prior trouble with the cartels in the area. Very outspoken about them. Also issues with water rights. Supposedly, family members had been kidnapped before.

Do you have links or reliable, identifiable sources for these assertions?

If not, you are needlessly inflaming the situation without any facts. Worse, you are suggesting that the victims are somehow responsible for their own murders.

Hook - 11-5-2019 at 11:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Bills

. . . Many reports that this family has had prior trouble with the cartels in the area. Very outspoken about them. Also issues with water rights. Supposedly, family members had been kidnapped before.

Murder is never justified, Bill. But people are killed for speaking out against the cartels every day, in Mexico. That doesn't make it their fault. These murders cannot be justified by any sane person.

Search the BBC stories. You'll find it. It's in others. I've read so many stories on this, this AM, that I cant remember where it went.

Really, what this indicates is that the Mexican government account of them POSSIBLY being caught in the crossfire of a cartel shootout or a case of mistaken identity (they were after ANOTHER set of women and children??) is probably BS; trying to make it look like a random act. It may not be.

[Edited on 11-5-2019 by Hook]

Paco Facullo - 11-5-2019 at 11:19 AM

Here's a sad example of talking sheet about a cartel boss..

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/mexico-you...

Don Pisto - 11-5-2019 at 11:36 AM

In 2009, the LeBaron enclave in Mexico received national attention in Mexico within the context of war against drug trafficking in Mexico, especially in the northwestern region of the state of Chihuahua. On May 2, Erick Le Baron, 17, was kidnapped for an attempted ransom amount of US$1 million. However, the spokesman of the entire LeBaron community had previously announced its decision not to pay any ransom but instead to seek the release of the young man, who was finally freed by his captors on May 10 without there having been made a ransom payment.[32] Throughout this event, the community spoke out publicly, both in the state capital, Chihuahua, and national and international media against the growing insecurity experienced in the region and maintained its intention to continue a policy of refusal to pay ransoms in cases of possible kidnappings.

On July 6, 2009, Erick's brother, Benjamin, and another order member, Luis Widmar Stubbs, were kidnapped and soon thereafter were murdered on the streets of Colonia LeBaron by a group of armed assailants, who left a written message with the victims' bodies which stated that this crime was in retaliation for Benjamin's activism against the traffickers.[33][34][35]

In the immediate aftermath, the Mexicans manned a garrison in the town.[36] In 2012 Chihuahua state legislator Alex LeBaron began campaigning for change to Mexican gun laws to legalize arming citizens for self-defense.[37]

A dispute over water between the LeBaron "family" and neighboring peasants belonging to El Barzon broke out in violence when members of the family shot at a group of 500 peasants who wanted to destroy illegal wells on the ranch.[38] In May 2018 El Barzon accused the LeBaron family and other large agribusinesses of violating a 1957 agreement by drilling 395 illegal wells in Namiquipa, Riva Palacio, Buenaventura, and Ahumada municipalities. They are also accused of using false documents to back their claims.[39][40] Heraclio Rodríguez of El Barzon says the LeBaron family are protected by 40 state and federal police.[41][42]

A woman and her four minor children, members of the Church of the Firstborn, are burned alive while driving to Nuevo Casas Grandes, Chihuahua on November 4, 2019. Members of the community report that two other women and ten children were also kidnapped, although this has not been verified.[43]

chuckie - 11-5-2019 at 11:39 AM

There is a LOT more to this story. The LeBarons have been involved in many murders and there has been a family feud going on for several decades. AND before anyone says it has nothing to do with Baja, it does. Google Ervil Lebaron, follow the tea leaves...

paranewbi - 11-5-2019 at 11:56 AM

There is a LOT more to this story. The LeBarons have been involved in many murders and there has been a family feud going on for several decades. AND before anyone says it has nothing to do with Baja, it does. Google Ervil Lebaron, follow the tea leaves...

This is true. Worked with family members for a season in North Cali. Good guys with scary stories all first hand witnesses. I had the feeling they weren't going back south.

John Harper - 11-5-2019 at 12:05 PM

President Trump has offered to help the President of Mexico to rid them of these "monsters".

Just like Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria? I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

John

DaliDali - 11-5-2019 at 12:25 PM

Despite any possible nefarious activities of the Mormons....

NO ONE'S kid deserves to be set afire..

AMLO says hugs!!!......ok got that

chuckie - 11-5-2019 at 01:13 PM

Good catch Harald! Well worth watching. I have spent time in and around Bavispe, met and talked to LeBaron family members.A number of books have been written about Ervil and his cult, and a feature film made. A fascinating and scary bunch.

Hook - 11-5-2019 at 01:16 PM

President Trump has offered to help the President of Mexico to rid them of these "monsters".

Just like Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria? I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

John

None of those four were ever really a threat to our national security, as it turned out. Iraq probably came the closest, if you count a cessation in its oil output a threat to our national security.

I'm not sure I can say that about Mexico anymore.............much closer, too.

AMLO has apparently refused Trump's offer and basically said "Mexico can handle this problem".

Really? :?:

Here is the BBC story. The history of the family in Mexico, and their problems with the cartels, sounds like someone simply paraphrased what is listed in Wikipedia about them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-50299562

Lee - 11-5-2019 at 01:56 PM

Embargo MX until they admit their failed State and allow US military in to eliminate the cartels. Send in the Marines.

BajaNaranja - 11-5-2019 at 02:06 PM

Embargo MX until they admit their failed State and allow US military in to eliminate the cartels. Send in the Marines.

Wow, we are in the presence of a deep thinker with big ideas, real solutions... LOL

WhackAMolE - 11-5-2019 at 02:53 PM

AMLO had better wake up and smell the coffee. His "hugs not bullets" policy toward the cartels is failing. He needs to bring the perpetrators of this atrocity to justice and stand up to the cartels nationwide.

[Edited on 11-5-2019 by WhackAMolE]

4x4abc - 11-5-2019 at 03:06 PM

NO ONE'S kid deserves to be separated from their parents and sleep in cages

LancairDriver - 11-5-2019 at 03:06 PM

President Trump has offered to help the President of Mexico to rid them of these "monsters".

Just like Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria? I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

John

If Trump is stupid enough to send in the goons to screw up the country like all the rest of the US invaded nations and make it worse than it is, it won’t be safe for any US citizen in all of Mexico. Maybe we can start by removing their US market for drugs.Eighteen years in Afghanistan and being defeated by a bunch of goat herders and laying waste to Iraq, Syria, Libya should be enough of a lesson.

4x4abc - 11-5-2019 at 03:09 PM

Embargo MX until they admit their failed State and allow US military in to eliminate the cartels. Send in the Marines.

and then win like in Lybia? Afghanistan? Irak?

Most importantly - cutting off the drug supply to the US might create an uprising there

thebajarunner - 11-5-2019 at 05:14 PM

The LeBaron family is a real mix

We did business with Alma LeBaron, owner of Viveros LeBaron in Chihuahua. Great guy. Very honest. And a real gentleman.

Then there is Ervil LB - and he is on the opposite side of the spectrum, for sure.

I had not made this connection today, just was hearing news flashes on the radio and feeling really bad for the "innocent" family.

Seeing the LeBaron name puts it into a whole new perspective.
Hate to judge, as I say, I personally know a real classy family member, but which tribe was on the road....
and then again, does the cartel even care???

Yes, I had some dialogue months ago with Elinvesitg8r and he said that he had worked for Alma and counted him as a real friend.

Trump gets a chance to bluster, AMLO gets a chance to pontificate, and nothing will change.... zero/zip/nada.....

BajaNomad - 11-5-2019 at 06:19 PM

https://www.eldiariodechihuahua.mx/estado/asesinan-en-enfren...

https://www.facebook.com/julian.lebaron/posts/10218390341383...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/attack-in-mexico-survivor-hid-s...

advrider - 11-5-2019 at 06:21 PM

Never knew of the connection that the video showed. There are so many hands in the drug trade and many of them are American, not just the users.., Sad when women and children are the target for any reason.

WhackAMolE - 11-5-2019 at 07:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

NO ONE'S kid deserves to be separated from their parents and sleep in cages

This seems a little off-topic. The cages Trump put kids in were built by Obama and for exactly the same purpose. Obama had a humongous humanitarian crisis on the southern border from 2014 onward and handled it just as badly as Trump did. It's hypocritical when anyone gets outraged at Trump putting kids in cages and separating families. That's exactly what Obama did. In fact Obama did happen to put fewer kids in cages (to protect them from sexual predators) long enough to determine if the adults with them were actually their parents. Instead, Obama tended to just turn the kids over to sex traffickers. You can look all this chit up.

None of this is relevant to the story at hand but anyone who pays attention to US-Mexican politics can not claim to be ignorant of Obama's 2014 border crisis. In fact most of the Twitter and Instagram viral posts of "kids in cages" that purport to be Trump's kids in cages are actually Obama's kids in cages.

No Need for U.S. Troops

MrBillM - 11-5-2019 at 07:28 PM

Send in Rudy Giuliani. He's between assignments at the moment.

Marc - 11-6-2019 at 06:41 AM

As more details emerge, it may be more religion related than drugs...we shall see

My first thought.

pacificobob - 11-6-2019 at 07:50 AM

study up on how the mormons ended up settling in that area on land stolen from peasants by the governor of chihuahua, and how similar events led to the revolution. polygamy was a small part of the story.

chuckie - 11-6-2019 at 08:05 AM

Yes, you should....

BajaNaranja - 11-6-2019 at 08:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by WhackAMolE

The cages Trump put kids in were built by Obama and for exactly the same purpose. Obama had a humongous humanitarian crisis on the southern border from 2014 onward and handled it just as badly as Trump did. It's hypocritical when anyone gets outraged at Trump putting kids in cages and separating families. That's exactly what Obama did. In fact Obama did happen to put fewer kids in cages (to protect them from sexual predators) long enough to determine if the adults with them were actually their parents. Instead, Obama tended to just turn the kids over to sex traffickers. You can look all this chit up.

None of this is relevant to the story at hand but anyone who pays attention to US-Mexican politics can not claim to be ignorant of Obama's 2014 border crisis. In fact most of the Twitter and Instagram viral posts of "kids in cages" that purport to be Trump's kids in cages are actually Obama's kids in cages.

Trying to spew disinformation and lies to normalize the orange cult leader's behavior is thankfully becoming less effective...

True the cages were from Obama's time.

Not true that Obama and Trump are the same, when it comes to family separation and other nonsense about "Obama tended to just turn the kids over to sex traffickers." (You actually believe that?)

The thousands of children separated from their parents last year were separated entirely due to extreme Trump policies, and thanks to XXJasonXX Stephen Miller.

[Edited on 11-6-2019 by BajaNaranja]

BajaTed - 11-6-2019 at 09:21 AM

As the Onion peels back; its been told that there are more than 12 polygamous groups residing in the Sonora region.
Utah has to be buzzing.

If I tried to join one, the blue eyed threat of my doing so would be my demise though. They don't share well.

Interesting details on the tragedy

thebajarunner - 11-6-2019 at 09:22 AM

If we can limp away from the politics long enough to return to the subject.....

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/05/world/americas/mexico-mor...

Neither NBC nor CBS mentioned the name LeBaron on the news last night. I found that interesting.

As usual, the Mexican government will find a couple of "stooges" to arrest, parade around and then they will "disappear" and another case will be solved....

chuckie - 11-6-2019 at 09:28 AM

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-victims-in-mexico-mas...

John Harper - 11-6-2019 at 10:03 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaNaranja

thanks to Jason Miller.

I think you mean Stephen Miller.

"Jason" is another malevolent creature, only fictional.

John

Desertbull - 11-6-2019 at 10:24 AM

This is a bit long but explains about the Mormons living and creating colonies in this area since 1875, maybe this wasn't a random Cartel attack.

https://youtu.be/LpIyaIHsJbc

AKgringo - 11-6-2019 at 10:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Desertbull

This is a bit long but explains about the Mormons living and creating colonies in this area since 1875, maybe this wasn't a random Cartel attack.

https://youtu.be/LpIyaIHsJbc

Harald posted this same link earlier in the thread, but I see that it is gone now!

BajaNaranja - 11-6-2019 at 10:58 AM

I think you mean Stephen Miller.

"Jason" is another malevolent creature, only fictional.

John

Oops, thanks for pointing out - I've edited my post to reflect

pacificobob - 11-6-2019 at 11:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Desertbull

This is a bit long but explains about the Mormons living and creating colonies in this area since 1875, maybe this wasn't a random Cartel attack.

https://youtu.be/LpIyaIHsJbc

the Mormons in chihuahua are a bunch of gangsters. in it up to their ears

Lee - 11-6-2019 at 12:51 PM

Lots of idle chatter and whining about this tragedy.

Lots of chances for thinking outside the box about how to stop drugs flowing into the US (fix the people, first?), money and guns flowing South from the US (greedy profiteers), and how to handle bad guys shooting up Americans.

Typical response: use US military to fight bad guys, and ''it won’t be safe for any US citizen in all of Mexico.'' Priceless.

Cowards.

chuckie - 11-6-2019 at 01:09 PM

I lost track...which ones are the cowards again?

4x4abc - 11-6-2019 at 01:55 PM

money and guns flowing South from the US (greedy profiteers), and how to handle bad guys shooting up Americans.

just sayin' :
These families have been Mexican citizens since 1875
don't know what trickery they used to be US citizens as well
maybe travel across the border to deliver child, then return
fact is that theses families have been living in Mexico for several generations

bottom line - Mexicans shooting Mexicans

DaliDali - 11-6-2019 at 02:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob

Quote: Originally posted by Desertbull

This is a bit long but explains about the Mormons living and creating colonies in this area since 1875, maybe this wasn't a random Cartel attack.

https://youtu.be/LpIyaIHsJbc

the Mormons in chihuahua are a bunch of gangsters. in it up to their ears

Pretty sure the kids who got torched had ZERO to do with anything, other than be a kid.

But hey, drop a dime on the cartel and tell em to light up another car full.
That will teach the bastards yeah?

[Edited on 11-6-2019 by DaliDali]

caj13 - 11-6-2019 at 02:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Bills

. . . Many reports that this family has had prior trouble with the cartels in the area. Very outspoken about them. Also issues with water rights. Supposedly, family members had been kidnapped before.

turns out he is accurate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpIyaIHsJbc

mtgoat666 - 11-6-2019 at 04:14 PM

Did you watch the TV series “Big Love”
Did you read Krakauers’ Under the Banner of Heaven?”
Have you visited colorado city?
Know much about polygamy?
Why is it always one guy and multiple wives? Why not one woman, multiple men?

Paco Facullo - 11-6-2019 at 06:02 PM

"Why is it always one guy and multiple wives? Why not one woman, multiple men?"

Because Men's BIG Ego's get in the way .............

chuckie - 11-6-2019 at 06:57 PM

ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY! And Goatley? I can answer YES to ALL of your questions MONEY MONEY

WhackAMolE - 11-6-2019 at 09:07 PM

Embargo MX until they admit their failed State and allow US military in to eliminate the cartels. Send in the Marines.

I was thinking about how this would work.

The US Marines and/or other branches of the service enter Mexico to fight the cartels in the remote mountain regions. They don't speak the language or understand the culture. They're hated and resented by most of the locals. They're fighting well-armed militias who have been fighting in those mountains for decades using ever more sophisticated paramilitary tactics.

Wouldn't it just be another Afghanistan? Is the US going to start drone-bombing Mexican villages and claiming to only hit cartel members? "Accidentally" blowing up a few wedding parties and quinceañeras?

Someone please explain to me how such an invasion would work. And why wouldn't there be equal blowback from cartel members traveling to the States to take the war north?

How many US casualties would the American people support in such a war? And in the end, isn't it America that has the insatiable appetite and demand for drugs in the first place? If you want to end the drug war tell Americans to stop using drugs. It's a demand side problem, not supply side. As along as you have a drug-addicted wealthy country bordering a poor country, you'll have drugs flowing. That's a fact that goes deeper than any supply-fighting tactic.

I don't believe those calling for US military involvement in Mexico's drug war have thought this through. Such a misadventure would not come out any differently than our counterterrorism and "nation building" exercises in the Middle East and North Africa. But it would be worse because the war would almost immediately cross the border north.

It's not like you just drop a few bombs and kill a few kingpins and declare victory. Calderón's bloody war against the cartels resulted in 70-100,000 Mexican deaths.

Like I say if someone wants to explain to me how such an enterprise could possibly turn out well, perhaps I'll learn something.

[Edited on 11-7-2019 by WhackAMolE]

Lee - 11-6-2019 at 09:50 PM

''‘Enough Is Enough’: Josh Hawley Calls for Sanctions on Mexican Cartels''

''Sen. Josh Hawley (R-MO) said Wednesday that “enough is enough” and called on the U.S. government to sanction Mexican officials and cartel members complicit in trafficking meth and killing Americans.

Hawley called for harsh retribution against the Mexican cartels complicit in ambushing and murdering nine American women and children near the New Mexico border.

In the wake of the attack on Americans, as well as the Mexican cartels’ complicity in Missouri’s meth crisis, the Missouri conservative called for the U.S. government to sanction the cartel members who are “openly slaughtering American citizens.”

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/11/06/enough-is-enou...

Lee - 11-6-2019 at 10:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by WhackAMolE

Embargo MX until they admit their failed State and allow US military in to eliminate the cartels. Send in the Marines.

I was thinking about how this would work.

Bin Laden, Escobar, Guzman, and Baghdadi would not have been caught without US aid.

Like I've written, embargo MX until it hurts.

Send in the highly trained. Delta, SEALS, Marine Raiders, snipers. The bad guys travel in vehicles. Block all roads in and out. Wait for them to show up. Blow up their compounds. Get rid of them. The MX government can't do it. Everyone goes to prison or dies.

Negotiation/diplomacy is not an option. These thugs need a big lesson.

Ignoring this situation is what I expect of the US government. It would clearly send the wrong message to the bad guys.

BajaRun - 11-6-2019 at 10:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by WhackAMolE

Embargo MX until they admit their failed State and allow US military in to eliminate the cartels. Send in the Marines.

I'm not a military expert so I can't explain how to remove the cartels but perhaps this podcast will shed some insight as to how it could possibly go down. Check it out if you are so inclined great, if not that's great too. ....Cheers Amigos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnKcquMobHQ

[Edited on 11-7-2019 by BajaRun]

[Edited on 11-7-2019 by BajaRun]

LancairDriver - 11-7-2019 at 09:05 AM

If the Marines and other US military forces entered Mexico they would get their a$$es handed to them just like they have in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria, having proven to be unable to defeat third world goat herders there in eighteen years. As has already been stated, the drug problem ultimately has to be solved at the source, right here in the US.

charliemanson - 11-7-2019 at 10:20 AM

Well said. No demand for drugs, no drug sellers but that will never happen as you need to be on drugs to live in the US. Granted I enjoyed them in the past and probably contributed to the present problem.

Our cartels would crush any invasion just like they crushed the forces in Culiacan in 8 hours

BajaNaranja - 11-7-2019 at 10:39 AM

Bin Laden, Escobar, Guzman, and Baghdadi would not have been caught without US aid.

Yeah, good thing we caught Escobar and Guzman, that really fixed the drug / guns / violence situation, didn't it?

Marc - 11-7-2019 at 11:33 AM

Martial Law with summary trial and execution.

AKgringo - 11-7-2019 at 12:01 PM

The only thing that has changed over the years is that there is a much larger number of druggies south of the border now!

Even in the unlikely event that the US drug market dried up, does anyone think that the narcos would give up the gang life and get traditional jobs?

If you could shut down the US supply of firearms and ammo, there are more than enough Asian and European gun dealers to fill the need.

John Harper - 11-7-2019 at 12:17 PM

What happened to all the crooks when Prohibition was repealed in the U.S.?

They became politicians.

John

David K - 11-7-2019 at 12:24 PM

What happened to all the crooks when Prohibition was repealed in the U.S.?

They became politicians.

John

The Kennedy story is a good one!

LancairDriver - 11-7-2019 at 01:31 PM

What happened to all the crooks when Prohibition was repealed in the U.S.?[/

This is something I've thought about a lot when people claim that drying up U.S. drug demand is the answer to cartel violence. What would really happen with all those sicarios, armed and accustomed to violence, if their principal occupation dried up? :no:

Probably the best model to look at is what happened during and after prohibition. Bank Robbery’s, kidnappings, extortion, shaking down small businesses, and switching to domestic production by new entrepreneurs of the product on their respective sides of the borders. And not to be ignored is the monstrous number of law enforcement employed in the US who currently make their living in drug related crime in the US and abroad. It rivals the employment in the military/industrial sector. The transition would present huge political and domestic economic problems. Sorting out this problem exceeds even the capability’s of the Baja Nomad group.😁

John Harper - 11-7-2019 at 02:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by LancairDriver

And not to be ignored is the monstrous number of law enforcement employed in the US who currently make their living in drug related crime in the US and abroad. It rivals the employment in the military/industrial sector. The transition would present huge political and domestic economic problems. Sorting out this problem exceeds even the capability’s of the Baja Nomad group.😁

Yes, the Law Enforcement Industrial Complex and Prison Industrial Complex is Eisenhower's modern MIC. It's a self perpetuating monster as is our military.

John

Marc - 11-7-2019 at 04:41 PM

I'm done with Mesico. Think I'll spend some time in Chicago.

Lee - 11-7-2019 at 04:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaNaranja

Bin Laden, Escobar, Guzman, and Baghdadi would not have been caught without US aid.

Yeah, good thing we caught Escobar and Guzman, that really fixed the drug / guns / violence situation, didn't it?

Again, sarcasm duly noted.

Why yes, the removal of those 2 thugs fixed a number of things.

The killing they perpetuated stopped. 33k total in MX last year, down from 34k?

How much drugs didn't make it across is anyone's guess. Lets say tons and tons. Guns another story.

All money and all guns (broad stroking here) travels South from the US. The US needs to clean up it's act. I could be wrong.

Any thought out ideas benefit this forum. Or is criticism and sniping the best you can do? Your history indicates that's what you do best.

Paco Facullo - 11-7-2019 at 05:06 PM

What is needed is to legalize ALL drugs. And Open drug treatment centers free for everyone...

But the USA won't do it as it makes too much good sense.

Lee - 11-7-2019 at 05:07 PM

Quote: Originally posted by LancairDriver

Probably the best model to look at is what happened during and after prohibition. Bank Robbery’s, kidnappings, extortion, shaking down small businesses, ....

Something to think about for those Gringos contemplating spending the rest of our days south of the border. Who would be the low-hanging fruit in that scenario? :smug:

No one thinking twice about this in my 'hood.

So, your ''best model'' is a blip in US history that occurred 90 years ago?

Those contemplating retirement in Baja will continue to get their ducks in a row, and move down to their own piece of Paradise.

You?

chuckie - 11-7-2019 at 05:31 PM

It seems to me that this whole thing is a Mexican problem. IF any of us choose to live in Mexico, understand the risks and live with them...

DaliDali - 11-7-2019 at 05:58 PM

It seems to me that this whole thing is a Mexican problem. IF any of us choose to live in Mexico, understand the risks and live with them...

To a point yes.

3 women and 6 kids burnt alive in their car is beyond the pale of understanding and "living" with the danger.

A mordida here, a mordida there, a pothole here, an army checkpoint there, can be tolerated as a "risk" and living with it.
Incineration of humans not so much.

Get to it AMLO

chuckie - 11-7-2019 at 06:38 PM

......Nope....

John Harper - 11-7-2019 at 09:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Paco Facullo

What is needed is to legalize ALL drugs. And Open drug treatment centers free for everyone...

But the USA won't do it as it makes too much good sense.

I agree. Too much money in also not doing it, perhaps?

John

elgatoloco - 11-7-2019 at 10:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Paco Facullo

What is needed is to legalize ALL drugs. And Open drug treatment centers free for everyone...

But the USA won't do it as it makes too much good sense.

I agree. Too much money in also not doing it, perhaps?

John

How would the privatized prisons make money for their shareholders? :fire:

chuckie - 11-8-2019 at 01:51 AM

NOTHING "Given" to the public by the Government is "Free"..

mtgoat666 - 11-8-2019 at 08:00 AM

The mormon polygamous cult members are outlaws. The cult moved to mexico because their illegal activities were not tolerated in usa.

The mormon cult communities in mexico are lawless patriarchies run by dictators, they are undemocratic dictatorships that abuse women.
I would not be surprised if they were competing with cartels over some illegal economic activity.
Live by the sword, die by the sword.

DaliDali - 11-8-2019 at 09:02 AM

Pretty sure bet those women and 6 kids never picked up a sword in their entire lives yeah?

But hey, let em burn, they deserved it.....rotten cultists!
A little collateral damage here, a little there. Goat doesn't care.

Yeah buddy

chuckie - 11-8-2019 at 09:16 AM

Lil Heavy on the "Holier than thou" ,eh?

Some may recall this

wessongroup - 11-8-2019 at 01:46 PM

Mexico’s Vigilante Militias Rout the Knights Templar Drug Cartel

https://ctc.usma.edu/mexicos-vigilante-militias-rout-the-kni...

And they did a damn good job .. back 5-6 years ago

Good enough the Federal Government decided that the Army and/or the LE and/or the Judical System could keep things the way they were at THAT time ... and then they turned in their GUNS ... The PEOPLE did :lol:

See that some growers are still fighting with the "guys" in the clubs

With a government like this ... I feel sorry for the Mexican people ... once again

Add an article which is allowed under their Constitution a citizen has the right to keep and bear arms :biggrin:

It might have some effect ... just saying

[Edited on 11-8-2019 by wessongroup]

chuckie - 11-8-2019 at 04:35 PM

Of Course more guns would help...Look how well it has worked in the USA!

mtgoat666 - 11-8-2019 at 04:41 PM

Solutions to violence:
Matriarchy
Decrease testosterone levels
Take away the guns

pacificobob - 11-8-2019 at 04:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

The mormon polygamous cult members are outlaws. The cult moved to mexico because their illegal activities were not tolerated in usa.

The mormon cult communities in mexico are lawless patriarchies run by dictators, they are undemocratic dictatorships that abuse women.
I would not be surprised if they were competing with cartels over some illegal economic activity.
Live by the sword, die by the sword.

I agree with you on this one.

pacificobob - 11-8-2019 at 05:02 PM

If these unfortunate women and kids had brown skin, media reaction would differ greatly.

[Edited on 11-9-2019 by pacificobob]

David K - 11-8-2019 at 05:21 PM

I think it mattered that they are still American citizens, and not skin color.

How to know it was citizenship over skin color in media reporting before is when there are "Americans" killed in Mexico (by police or drug people), reported on the news (to make Mexico seem like the most dangerous place on earth). You read more, and discover these were indeed American citizens but with Spanish names dealing in drugs. Possibly with family members of a drug cartel? So, the brown skin has nothing to do with what is reported, but the citizenship does.

wessongroup - 11-8-2019 at 10:57 PM

Of Course more guns would help...Look how well it has worked in the USA!

Got any examples of Cartel violence in the United States the same as this example which is being discussed ?

Or perhaps an equivalent incident in the United States like this one

El Chapo: Mexican police free drug lord's son as Culiacán battle erupts

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-50092641

[Edited on 11-9-2019 by wessongroup]

mtgoat666 - 11-9-2019 at 07:01 AM

The gun nuts think guns = freedom.
That’s just stupidity.

Lots of countries have freedom without guns, without needless gun deaths.

John Harper - 11-9-2019 at 07:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by wessongroup

Got any examples of Cartel violence in the United States the same as this example which is being discussed ?

No, a lot of the massacres in the US are far worse. How about Sandy Hook or Las Vegas or Thousand Oaks?

We don't need cartels for our mass shootings. Cartels can be handled by law enforcement, lone gunmen with high capacity magazines not so much.

John

mtgoat666 - 11-9-2019 at 08:11 AM

Quote: Originally posted by wessongroup

Got any examples of Cartel violence in the United States the same as this example which is being discussed ?

There is a a gun cartel, it is the USA gun mfg/sellers cartel, led by NRA and a few other NRA wanna-bes.
The gun cartel foments gun violence...

paranewbi - 11-9-2019 at 08:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote: Originally posted by wessongroup

Got any examples of Cartel violence in the United States the same as this example which is being discussed ?

There is a a gun cartel, it is the USA gun mfg/sellers cartel, led by NRA and a few other NRA wanna-bes.
The gun cartel foments gun violence...

And don't forget those nasty rock slings...Goliath never saw that coming.

wessongroup - 11-9-2019 at 08:52 AM

Used to see the hanging bodies when coming up to cross the border back in 2009-2011

As for mass killings ... Mexico is no slouch IMO .. and the civilians DON'T have guns

Nuevo León mass graves

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuevo_León_mass_graves

Here a list of mass murders in Mexico .... see if one can find the same numbers within the history of the United States that get even close

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Mexico

One may wish to compare the Mexican list, to the mass murders list in the United States

Of note mass murder's in Mexico are tracked all the way back to 1835 .. the United States starts tracking in 1920

And for the illegal shipments to Mexico of guns purchased in the United States ... so what ... How much: Fentyenal, Heroin, Meth, and Coke/crack is coming across our borders to the south and creating a public health issue in the USA that is spiraling out of control

Check the numbers from the CDC ... "More than 399,000 people died from overdoses involving any opioid, including prescription and illicit opioids from 1999-2017.6"

That works out to around 40,000 dead per year here in the United States ... much worst than mass shootings numbers significantly IMO and that is just from usage ... not involved with storage, transportation, distribution and sales at the bottom end of "drug" usage

https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/analysis.html

[Edited on 11-9-2019 by wessongroup]

caj13 - 11-9-2019 at 08:57 AM

I think it mattered that they are still American citizens, and not skin color.

How to know it was citizenship over skin color in media reporting before is when there are "Americans" killed in Mexico (by police or drug people), reported on the news (to make Mexico seem like the most dangerous place on earth). You read more, and discover these were indeed American citizens but with Spanish names dealing in drugs. Possibly with family members of a drug cartel? So, the brown skin has nothing to do with what is reported, but the citizenship does.

David, if you are trying to make a point, it is always best to start with facts, and educating yourself on the background.
First they had dual citizenship,

second, although they are identified in media reports as being "mormon" in fact they are a fundamentalist group that broke away from the LDS church in the 1800s when the "mormons" (who have asked not to be called that anymore) walked away from polygamy in essence as a trade for statehood. This group set up a compound in mexico in the 1920's. This particular group calls themselves "the Church of the Firstborn".

This group broke away went to Mexico and set up their community (similar to the Colorado city group on the Utah / Az border, or the FDLS group lead by Jeffs (i'm not saying each group has the same beliefs / behaviors, I'm simply tracing their origin in history).

and do you have ANY source that even suggests this group is involved in the drug trade, or in bed with the cartels? because everything I see says exactly the opposite, that they are essentially locked in a death struggle with them.

Take a few minutes and look at this on site report from the Vice, it might help educate you, and illuminate your understanding of the situation, and the history!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpIyaIHsJbc

educations is your friend! it's not scary, it's not hard!

chuckie - 11-9-2019 at 10:33 AM

Most of what you said is wrong , caj...

caj13 - 11-9-2019 at 10:39 AM