BajaNomad - Global Warming Projected to Strike Again

...which are now dying because of saltwater intrusion..

If you're talking about the verborrágico's showcase palm tree beach, my assumption would be that it's more from human intrusion than saltwater.

Aren't coconut palms pretty salt tolerant? :?:

chuckie - 11-11-2019 at 02:41 PM

They must be...Ihad some growing by my place that were practicly IN the water....They were date palms tho...

caj13 - 11-11-2019 at 06:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie

"the area" ? What area?

Look at Davids photos over the years, watch the vegetation get more and more sparse, all of the shrubs now gone, some palm trees now gone, others looking pretty scruffy. If it was only old age, you would expect new growth replacing it, but its not.

If David can make ridiculous claims based on his photos, I can make reasonable claims based on his provided evidence!

4x4abc - 11-11-2019 at 07:51 PM

I can tell you from 30 years of back country travel experience that in popular areas the search for camp fire wood will reduce vegetation very quickly - camp fires have to be really big, right?

chuckie - 11-12-2019 at 02:36 AM

What Harald said..That area around the DK memorial Palm is one of the most overused spots in Baja.....If studied on the bias however and additional infusion....That theorem could amalgamate...

4x4abc - 11-12-2019 at 03:20 AM

"DK memorial Palm"
love it!
we should attach a plaque

wouldn't it be ironic to send David's grand kids pictures of water close to the plaque in 50 years?

David K - 11-12-2019 at 08:41 AM

Oh, how sweet.
So, the palm tree is still above high tide, two generations from now?
I am glad it was such an obviously good way to prove the seas are not rising any drastic amount. This palm tree has been just above the high tide point for over 80 years in photographs.
Since trees do not uproot themselves and move, it is an excellent benchmark.
Also, since the land behind the palm is flat, if the sea was just a foot or so higher than 80 years ago, that land would be a lagoon today!

This photo was taken in 1949:

1949 Palms El Coyote.jpg - 172kB

This photo was taken in 2016:

caj13 - 11-12-2019 at 08:44 AM

I'm in for a contribution for the plaque!

I was making a point, Tounge firmly planted in my cheek!

I assumed I was just highlighting the use of vapor evidence to prove a point. If David can use his photos and make ridiculous claims - well then I should be allowed to do so also. And my info ought to be subjected to the same level of scrutiny (and support) as Davids claims.

Interesting, some of you here line up lockstep with David on his magic Palm trees, but when someone else pulls out essentially the same data - but with a different slant on it, you immediately snap to defend the indefensible David at all costs - " the infidels are storming our Palm infested castle! "

thanks for my morning Laugh!

caj13 - 11-12-2019 at 08:46 AM

Oh, how sweet.
So, the palm tree is still above high tide, two generations from now?
I am glad it was such an obviously good way to prove the seas are not rising any drastic amount. This palm tree has been just above the high tide point for over 80 years in photographs.
Since trees do not uproot themselves and move, it is an excellent benchmark.
Also, since the land behind the palm is flat, if the sea was just a foot or so higher than 80 years ago, that land would be a lagoon today!

This photo was taken in 1949:

This photo was taken in 2016:

what happened to the Palm on the far right (how Ironic!) David,

and the 2 smaller trees on either side of the magic palm - where did they go?

PaulW - 11-12-2019 at 08:54 AM

==== ==
Different zoom level and angle. Maybe the single tree on the right is just off screen?
2 smaller trees beside the Magic palm ???? Things happen in 67 years.

David K - 11-12-2019 at 08:56 AM

70 years have passed between 1949 and 2019, do I really need to explain to you that the area is a busy campground now and things change? The world is not static, everything changes. Even the sea will change... LOL

chuckie - 11-12-2019 at 09:45 AM

LOL? WTF?

chuckie - 11-12-2019 at 10:16 AM

DK? I swear every time you open your mouth, you embarrass your self..The sign on the DK memorial will be like 4 feet off the ground..NOT at root level...Read what Harald wrote LOL

David K - 11-12-2019 at 10:44 AM

Ditto to you Chuck.
I can't make this any more simple... and I wasn't even going to post in this thread but someone is so threatened at how simple the truth is, apparently.
The palm tree (or any set benchmark along the coast) was just above the sea (high tide) 70 years ago... and still is today.
So...
What is the hysteria about?

chuckie - 11-12-2019 at 10:48 AM

Take a pill David ....Go to Costco and get a sense of humor Get over yourself.....LOL (your favorite phrase)

David K - 11-12-2019 at 10:53 AM

Ha ha ha... funny.

This is not about me, this is about the truth... and the truth is there is no sea level crisis despite the groupthink.

Here, another location on the other side of the planet:

daveB - 11-12-2019 at 11:26 AM

The Arctic and Antarctic have been warming at an unusual rate for a few years now. Friends had plans to hike across Baffin Island, not such an uncommon thing to do, 12 years ago. They started out to find melt water everywhere, bridges constructed years before, washed out. A helicopter came in and picked them up, taking them out, with the reason being, the sea ice had largely gone and polar bears were then going to the is land in numbers, and would now be too much of a danger to hikers. This was 2008. The situation has not gotten any better, only worse. Polar bears hunt from ice floes, when there are none their sea life becomes largely unavailable. Looking for a surge in water levels is not the first thing do do, the sea ice changes nothing to depth, of course. As the large land ice masses of Greenland and Antarctica melt more into sea, which is just beginning, more depth will be added to oceans. By that time things near the Poles will have already be changed more than mankind has ever seen. What has happened to the weather other areas of the world will also be different to a greater or lesser, extent. And a rise in ocean levels will eventually displace millions of people. maybe the palms on El Coyote will be changed to mangroves?

mtgoat666 - 11-12-2019 at 11:38 AM

"DK memorial Palm"
love it!
we should attach a plaque

wouldn't it be ironic to send David's grand kids pictures of water close to the plaque in 50 years?

DK,
how do you want your name listed on the plaque?
Do you want to be present at the unveiling?

4x4abc - 11-12-2019 at 12:01 PM

not many will have a place named after them (without being dead, that is)

we need to make sure that future pictures are taken from the same place, in the same direction, at the same angle, same tide

finally something scientific with David's name
love the irony

mtgoat666 - 11-12-2019 at 12:38 PM

didnt somebody put up a sign for dk at shell island?
he will be a really famous boy if he gets a second memorial!

David K - 11-12-2019 at 02:04 PM

Unlike some here, I want people to think for themselves. So, I (and others) provide the evidence and all you need to do is use your eyes and brain.
Others want to tell you what to think. They tell you that science is done collecting data because they all got together and agree on the data collected up to then.

Reality is that science doesn't stop and conditions keep changing. They love that the Arctic ice shrank but neglect to say the Antarctic ice has grown in record amounts.
The sea may be 4" taller, but that's still less than the occasional extreme high tides have gone the past 60 years.
Even if it did raise more, what do you think you can do to change the change and should you alter a natural event or should you simply learn to live with it?

4x4abc - 11-12-2019 at 03:55 PM

Dunning/Kruger is all I can say

Tioloco - 11-12-2019 at 03:56 PM

Wow, a lot of people piling on DavidK here. Clearly everyone with an opinion is an expert. Time to hit the reset button again and try to be civil. At the end of the day none of us know what is going to happen. Why don't we start panicking about the impending asteroid strike that is sure to happen. Nobody can prove it wont, right?
Come on experts, lighten up. You aren't going to solve any of it by sitting behind your keyboard insulting a guy.
Peace and Love

paranewbi - 11-12-2019 at 04:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco

Wow, a lot of people piling on DavidK here. Clearly everyone with an opinion is an expert. Time to hit the reset button again and try to be civil. At the end of the day none of us know what is going to happen. Why don't we start panicking about the impending asteroid strike that is sure to happen. Nobody can prove it wont, right?
Come on experts, lighten up. You aren't going to solve any of it by sitting behind your keyboard insulting a guy.
Peace and Love

Shhhh... no talking during their worship service.

Lee - 11-12-2019 at 04:24 PM

Unlike some here, I want people to think for themselves. So, I (and others) provide the evidence and all you need to do is use your eyes and brain.

You probably already know this comes across as condescending, right? If these words were written by anyone else, I'd think they were joking, tongue in cheek stuff.

Me? Carry on.

(Saw a t-shirt that read: what I say before any important decision: F*CK IT!) I think this is very funny.

Oh, and climate change? Whatever.

chuckie - 11-12-2019 at 06:29 PM

4x4abc - 11-12-2019 at 06:44 PM

sea levels are rising
even David admits to that
he subjects to the panic around "catastrophic events"
in terms of numbers the sea level rise is not eye popping or catastrophic - about 1/2 inch every year
the palm tree will be safe for a long time
none of us here will get wet feet for the rest of our lives

however, the miniscule 1/2 rise per year will have catastrophic effects on hundreds of millions of people living in low areas of the world
but just like not caring about the life conditions of people south of San Diego, we could shrug it off
not us
not our families
they don't even speak English

So, David is right
don't let scientists scare you - YOU will not be affected

and this effing liberal idea of helping everyone on this planet can make MAGA people only yawn
it is me first, then maybe America - who gives a fu*% about the rest

LancairDriver - 11-12-2019 at 06:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie

DK? I swear every time you open your mouth, you embarrass your self..The sign on the DK memorial will be like 4 feet off the ground..NOT at root level...Read what Harald wrote LOL

And another comment from someone who ought to know about embarrassing ones self. 😂😂

Sea level change in Venice over 50 years

John Harper - 11-16-2019 at 12:41 PM

Just read an article about recent tidal flooding in Venice. It noted that the local sea level has risen 4" in 50 years, according to local records office.

https://enewspaper.latimes.com/desktop/latimes/default.aspx?...

Not sure if the increase has been linear or exponential over time.

John

[Edited on 11-16-2019 by John Harper]

RocketJSquirrel - 11-16-2019 at 01:10 PM

Venice is also sinking (and tilting) due to subsidence.
https://www.livescience.com/19195-venice-sinking-slowly.html

From the article:
The patches of land in Venice's lagoon (117 islands in all) are also sinking, with northern sections of the lagoon dropping at a rate of 2 to 3 mm (0.08 to 0.12 inches) per year, and the southern lagoon subsiding at 3 to 4 mm (0.12 to 0.16 inches) per year.

Rick Steves in his guide book says 9" in the last 100 years. Maybe an average overall. Not sure where he got his data.

Salsa - 11-16-2019 at 01:19 PM

The article I read said it was a Tide problem.

David K - 11-16-2019 at 01:54 PM

Too bad there isn't a palm tree in Venice! LOL
Full and New moons plus seasonal variations and weather conditions explain extra high tides. That Venice is still normally above the sea after 500 years+ built on lagoon is amazing!

John Harper - 11-16-2019 at 01:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RocketJSquirrel

Venice is also sinking (and tilting) due to subsidence.
https://www.livescience.com/19195-venice-sinking-slowly.html

From the article:
The patches of land in Venice's lagoon (117 islands in all) are also sinking, with northern sections of the lagoon dropping at a rate of 2 to 3 mm (0.08 to 0.12 inches) per year, and the southern lagoon subsiding at 3 to 4 mm (0.12 to 0.16 inches) per year.

Rick Steves in his guide book says 9" in the last 100 years. Maybe an average overall. Not sure where he got his data.

I read that too. I wonder if they adjusted the tide record for land subsidence.

John

4x4abc - 11-16-2019 at 02:04 PM

Sculpture in Berlin - Politicians discussing climate change

politicians under water.jpeg - 32kB

pauldavidmena - 11-16-2019 at 02:42 PM

There are no palm trees in Antarctica either, but as this study by a work colleague suggests, the shrinking of the polar ice cap could spell extinction for the emperor penguin. And while the article doesn't ask this question, doesn't all of the water from the melted ice have to go somewhere?

:?:

Palm Trees or Science

4x4abc - 11-16-2019 at 05:02 PM

For our members who read and can follow arguments
no, the story has no pictures

https://thelogicofscience.com/2016/06/06/global-warming-isnt...

David K - 11-16-2019 at 05:48 PM

I am guessing since I include the El Coyote Palm Tree as one of MANY benchmarks proving that there is no hyper rise in sea level the past 60 years (as there should be by all the panic promoted by media), I am okay to respond to this thread?

From your link:
To put this another way, when you claim that virtually all of the world’s climatologists are wrong and the earth is actually warming naturally, you have just placed the burden of proof on you to provide evidence for that claim. In other words, simply citing previous warming events does not prove that the current warming is natural. You have to actually provide evidence for a natural cause of the current warming, but (as I’ll explain shortly) no such mechanism exists.

Let's stop right there... I made no argument the world is warming naturally or unnaturally. In fact, I believe we are in a cooling trend the past few years and the long term forecast is not looking like global warming. This is why they changed the name from "Global Warming" to "Climate Change" which is hysterical since the climate has ALWAYS changed (with or without human activity).

My contribution to the science here is simply that I offer proof (thanks to photos taken 40-60 or more years ago and personal observation) that the sea is not rising dramatically enough (if at all) to warrant the hysteria. I contend the media and special interests are using false hysteria to gain more control, more funding, and more passion for their dreamed up ideas.

I also have been contending that what sea-level change does happen is simply as natural as all other changes in Nature and man cannot reverse what Nature intends.

Science, true science, is the continued collection of data. The longer we collect, the more we will know. Saying that science ended at some point with some consensus of scientists claiming something to be settled is ridiculous.

[Edited on 11-17-2019 by David K]

Marc - 11-16-2019 at 06:13 PM

What David said. :light:

chuckie - 11-16-2019 at 06:16 PM

A bit heavy going, but makes a lot of sense....I read it 3 times....One of the most telling statements is in about the 3rd paragraph..It says,in sum, "if you believe a (or all) climatologists are wrong, then the burden of proof to prove that is on you" That will stop most of the naysayers dead in their tracks....Anyhow good read...Thanks...I am going to stick with the theory that Global warming is being caused by an overly large pumpkin crop in Sudan....Thanks

caj13 - 11-16-2019 at 07:22 PM

I
Let's stop right there... I made no argument the world is warming naturally or unnaturally. In fact, I believe we are in a cooling trend the past few years and the long term forecast is not looking like global warming.

OK David - Time to put up or shut up - don't be saying "in fact"
when it is nothing more than your ill-informed opinion. Facts are things that are proven, measurable, confirmed - not baseless vaporware fueling wild conspiracy theories where lack of proof, fact, and evidence is held out as proof of the conspiracy!
and here's your chance David - WHERE is your evidence that we are in a cooling trend for the last few years? any reference with real uncherry picked data? anything? And who's Long Term forecast are you citing? please post your references!

This is why they changed the name from "Global Warming" to "Climate Change" which is hysterical since the climate has ALWAYS changed (with or without human activity).

https://skepticalscience.com/climate-change-global-warming.h...
you have had this explained to you dozens of times - because you refuse to listen doesn't make it go away David, it makes you willfully ignorant!

My contribution to the science here is simply that I offer proof (thanks to photos taken 40-60 or more years ago and personal observation) that the sea is not rising dramatically enough (if at all) to warrant the hysteria. I contend the media and special interests are using false hysteria to gain more control, more funding, and more passion for their dreamed up ideas.

David - you have never made any contribution to science in your life . you are anti-science as your beliefs in flat earrth, young earth and no climate change clearly demonstrate.
you are an enemy of science, you pretending to care about science or "contribute" is disgusting and an insult to those who actually do science.

I also have been contending that what sea-level change does happen is simply as natural as all other changes in Nature and man cannot reverse what Nature intends.

This has been addressed here many times, completely debunked. Your lack of understanding of rates of change and Feedback loops is well documented here. instead of you educating yourself on those important points, you have chosen to ignore them - why David? is it because you Know that it completely invalidates any of your uneducated conspiracy theory spouting here! Burying your head in the sand does not make the truth go away David - it makes you look foolish for being Willfully ignorant.

Science, true science, is the continued collection of data. The longer we collect, the more we will know. Saying that science ended at some point with some consensus of scientists claiming something to be settled is ridiculous.
[Edited on 11-17-2019 by David K]

BWaHAHAHAHAAAA ! wow - the only time you stop shooting yourself in the foot is when you are reloading David!

Guess what David - scientists continue to collect data on this - literally thousands of new data points every day. And we have been collecting the data we use to understand and confirm anthropogenic climate change for over 100 years, and the data themselves date back to millions of years old. See David, we don 't collect data and throw it in a drawer - we analyze it - we use it to understand the world. we use it to build and verify models, we use it to learn more every day.

and what my 100 years of data - with millions and millions and millions of data points say is - you are completely ignorant if you think your tree is actually Data!
(and you know why David - so deal with it!)

You choose to be willfully ignorant David - that's your choice - but that doesn't change facts and information - those keep coming every day - and they clearly point out to any and everyone willing to look at data and science with an open mind that we have anthropogenic climate change in progress, sea levels are rising and feedback loops and accelerating rates of change are issues that we have to deal with.

Call yourself a mapmaker David, I have no problem with that - but you start spouting about science, - that's laughable David,

[Edited on 11-17-2019 by caj13]

How much CO2 is too much?

AKgringo - 11-16-2019 at 07:24 PM

Dinosaurs like me don't like change, and I wish there was far less population and industry on this planet, but the safe bet is that it is going to get worse before it gets better!

But how much Co2 is there now? Pre-industrial Earth had a reported level of 0.028%. By 2019 atmospheric Co2 has climbed to 0.041%!

What will be the effect if the level climbs another one hundredth of one percent? (0.051%)

HeyMulegeScott - 11-16-2019 at 08:15 PM

General Baja Discussion = Let's troll David K on climate change

Lee - 11-16-2019 at 08:42 PM

I contend the media and special interests are using false hysteria to gain more control, more funding, and more passion for their dreamed up ideas.

LOL?

David K - 11-16-2019 at 08:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Three2tango

General Baja Discussion = Let's troll David K on climate change

Seriously, right?? LOL

All I ask is you Baja travelers to show me when the sea really is higher than 50 years ago. I live, camp, and travel along the sea and it is not higher.... Yet! That's what the palm tree, runway at Alfonsina's, hot springs at Puertecitos, lagoons and salt flats, my home street in Del Mar, etc. all show us... the sea is still where it has been. Wake me up when it really is higher. Then my answer will be "finally!"

motoged - 11-16-2019 at 09:27 PM

David....will you EVER wake up?

caj13 - 11-16-2019 at 09:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Three2tango

General Baja Discussion = Let's troll David K on climate change

You understand the globe is actually that - right? the earth is not flat? and do you know there are other places on earth other than Baja and southern California?
and you do know that sea level is higher - the data are out there - easily available - google is your friend - (well alright, in this case, your enemy)

rate of change
Feedback Loops
actual real data

your ignoring these things don't change them - it simply illustrates your continued willfull ignorance!

You just keep on living in your flat earth that is only 6000 years old world.

Ignorance isn't bliss David
Its a really bad place to exist - particularly when you are choosing to remain in that state!

Glidergeek - 11-17-2019 at 08:54 AM

the shrinking of the polar ice cap could spell extinction for the emperor penguin.

Damnit I'll have to start eating pork again.

amigobaja - 11-17-2019 at 09:56 AM

These hide tides and flooding happens so often in Venice that all the homes and stores have metal or plastic (for lack of a better word) plugs that they put into their door jams to keep the water out. Most of them are low enough that they leave their doors open and you step over them to enter. The city has thousands of metal walk ways that they put 4X8 sheets of plywood on to make walk ways. When I was there 12 years ago at that time they had record tides and all the plywood floated away. We got stuck (or drunk) in a bar about a mile from our hotel and had to walk through three to four feet of water to get back to our hotel.
That night the water came over the door dams and flooded inside most peoples places and all the restaurants around us seemed to have their kitchens in lower levels so they were all closed.You should have heard all the gordito tourist complaining about having to miss a meal plus the cities sewer system was not functioning and raw sewage was everywhere.

DaliDali - 11-17-2019 at 09:58 AM

How is it that water from the polar ice cap melt, can make its way deep into the Mediterranean Sea, after squeezing by the Straits of Gibraltar, and into the head of the Adriatic Sea, yet avoid the Sea of Cortez?....

Here all along, I was sure water sought out its own level?

Howard - 11-17-2019 at 10:54 AM

Why in the world would you throw logic into this conversation? :biggrin:

David K - 11-17-2019 at 12:23 PM

The Arctic polar cap could melt 100% and the sea level remains unchanged. That ice is floating on the water. A cup full of ice water is not going to flow over the top when the ice melts in it. Now, the ice on Greenland and Antarctica may be a different story... However, last I heard, the Antarctic ice cap is greater in size than ever. Seems that Nature is in balance?

Growing or shrinking??

bajaguy - 11-17-2019 at 03:08 PM

https://earthdata.nasa.gov/learn/sensing-our-planet/unexpect...

caj13 - 11-17-2019 at 03:31 PM

https://earthdata.nasa.gov/learn/sensing-our-planet/unexpect...

The Arctic polar cap could melt 100% and the sea level remains unchanged. That ice is floating on the water. A cup full of ice water is not going to flow over the top when the ice melts in it. Now, the ice on Greenland and Antarctica may be a different story... However, last I heard, the Antarctic ice cap is greater in size than ever. Seems that Nature is in balance?

Heres a brand new scientific concept for you David
Volume as compared to surface area. now go do your home work, look that up, understand the concept, then we will allow you to come back and issue a retraction of your idiotic post

[Edited on 11-17-2019 by caj13]

caj13 - 11-17-2019 at 03:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bajaguy

Gee wiz - if only anyone had any data more current that 2014 - that would help confirm this - right?

turns out there actually is more current data, heres one for you - lots of others if you choose to look

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/29/14414

And it sure makes it look like someone went looking for one specific year to pull out their data- because it supported their beliefs - you know, kind of like cherry picking data?

40 year long term decline -2014 a bit of an anomoly - but thats why we keep gathering data, and do data analysis - right guys!

caj13 - 11-17-2019 at 03:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DaliDali

How is it that water from the polar ice cap melt, can make its way deep into the Mediterranean Sea, after squeezing by the Straits of Gibraltar, and into the head of the Adriatic Sea, yet avoid the Sea of Cortez?....

Here all along, I was sure water sought out its own level?

If the earth was flat as DK and others here apparently believe - you would have a valid point. Unfortunately, since the world is round - it's a bit more complicated that that!

https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/globalsl.html

DaliDali - 11-17-2019 at 04:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DaliDali

In any given year and any given mean high tide, what is the difference between that mean in Venice, Italy and La Paz, Mexico?

What should the world do to lower the sea levels?
Does man have the technology to lower sea levels worldwide?
Absent that technology, what should be done in the near term to lower the sea levels?

Bruce R Leech - 11-17-2019 at 05:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DaliDali

defrag4 - 11-18-2019 at 08:53 AM

Palm tree pic > 97% of the worlds scientists

4x4abc - 11-18-2019 at 09:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by defrag4

Palm tree pic > 97% of the worlds scientists

now you are testing the group!

Pacifico - 11-18-2019 at 10:36 AM

Here's an interesting article:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/03/04/climate-sciences-myth...

Just food for thought...

4x4abc - 11-18-2019 at 11:24 AM

Here's an interesting article:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/03/04/climate-sciences-myth...

Just food for thought...

food - but not for thought

David will eat it though

chuckie - 11-18-2019 at 12:07 PM

LOL!

LancairDriver - 11-18-2019 at 12:11 PM

Here’s A little something for everybody. All of the amateur Nomad climatologists parroting their favorite climate hero’s, as well as the “deniers” citing their personal observations.

https://www.truthorfiction.com/newspaper-article-from-1922-d...

bajatrailrider - 11-18-2019 at 12:25 PM

Here is a better deal for All Baja blow hards . Move on you cant change Climate or . You have nothing better to do I got it :bounce:

4x4abc - 11-18-2019 at 12:36 PM

the article shows the first step in science (medicine, climate etc):
you notice an abnormality
you measure it
you repeat it
you have a number of theories why you could have an abnormality
you check your theories against current and past observations
none of your ideas stick
you keep measuring
you read endless papers to see if someone found something that could fit
you keep measuring
you keep comparing
you find a paper that explains the warming
you compare notes and measurements
you think you may have found an answer
you publish a paper for your peers to take you apart
in the meantime you still keep measuring and testing
good news - your peers mostly agree
they applaud you
good
now you start looking for ways to remedy the abnormalities (if they are considered bad)

so, one paper a long time ago only shows that someone found an abnormality
it is not proving anything in any direction - good or bad

eyeballing palm trees would also qualify
as step one
definitely not proof for anything

[Edited on 11-18-2019 by 4x4abc]

pacificobob - 11-18-2019 at 01:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bajatrailrider

Here is a better deal for All Baja blow hards . Move on you cant change Climate or . You have nothing better to do I got it :bounce:

your message would carry more weight with standard punctuation.

ncampion - 11-18-2019 at 01:39 PM

Here's an interesting article:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/03/04/climate-sciences-myth...

Just food for thought...

food - but not for thought

David will eat it though

Certainly not for your thought, Harald, as it is not aligned with your POV. You Believers are all the same, no opposing opinion has any validity. Guess we'll just have to wait a couple decades to see.

ZipLine - 11-18-2019 at 01:49 PM

"When there is speech that is completely forbidden and questions that are not allowed to be asked - you can assume they are true".

- Peter Thiel, at the 2019 Wriston lecture at the Manhattan Institute, Nov 14th, 2019.

Spoken by probably the smartest man in America - though I am sure there are some here who believe they tower above him in intellect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-IaSS0bbGU

caj13 - 11-18-2019 at 02:00 PM

Here's an interesting article:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/03/04/climate-sciences-myth...

Just food for thought...

heres your author: Guy Sorman (born March 10, 1944, Nérac) is a French-American professor, columnist, author, and public intellectual in economics and philosophy.

so now hurry off - I believe have scheduled your auto mechanic to fix your smile with dental implants - you don't want to be late for that appointment!

Pacifico - 11-18-2019 at 02:04 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ncampion

Here's an interesting article:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/03/04/climate-sciences-myth...

Just food for thought...

food - but not for thought

David will eat it though

Exactly what I was thinking....

caj13 - 11-18-2019 at 02:04 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ZipLine

"When there is speech that is completely forbidden and questions that are not allowed to be asked - you can assume they are true".

- Peter Thiel, at the 2019 Wriston lecture at the Manhattan Institute, Nov 14th, 2019.

Spoken by probably the smartest man in America - though I am sure there are some here who believe they tower above him in intellect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-IaSS0bbGU

I question your judgment of "smartest man in America" but i agree - now all you have to do is get David to understand he is talking to him!
fingers in your ears shouting LALALA to avoid hearing truth and light!

and once again - you get your climate science from an "entrepreneur"?, who do you get your brain surgery from? your appliance repairman?

ZipLine - 11-18-2019 at 02:07 PM

Neither he nor I claimed the quote was related to climate science.

caj13 - 11-18-2019 at 02:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ncampion

Here's an interesting article:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/03/04/climate-sciences-myth...

Just food for thought...

food - but not for thought

David will eat it though

Opinions do not carry the same weight as facts. And in this case it's one opinion against a hundred years of data - millions of data points, all say the same thing - and your opinion doesn't negate the science, it just reveals how far you will go to ignore the truth!

where is your data? where are your climate models?, wher3e are youir temperature records? where are your sea level measurements?

what you call believers, in this case, are skeptics who have been looking at the data and research and have been convinced by a preponderance of the evidence. On the other hand we have: a few conspiracy theory yahoos shouting all sorts of long ago disproved and laughably uninformed opinions, backed by exactly zero science!

But you carry on - i understand the drill - when the facts are against you - the only thing you have left is to yell harder and try to distract - so you carry on with that mission!

caj13 - 11-18-2019 at 02:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ZipLine

Neither he nor I claimed the quote was related to climate science.

I'm sorry i thought that's what we were discussing. I assumed you wanted that quote applied to the discussion - but I guess not? so then why is it in here?

and you and I both know he's a long time denier. at least he put his money where his mouth is and funds a non peer reviewd journal pretty much dedicated to championing climate denial - and evolution, THAT'S CONSIDERED TO BE A JOKE BY REAL SCIENTISTS

NO DATA, NO RESEARCH, JUST SOME RIGHT WING YAHOOS SPOUTING OFF THEIR PERSONAL AGENDAS!

[Edited on 11-18-2019 by caj13]

ZipLine - 11-18-2019 at 02:19 PM

Sorry - I forgot I was talking to idiots. I was hoping you might "get" the philosophical idea behind what he was saying. That could possibly be applied to anything and everything. So never mind.

But then I realize I should assume you are smarter than him. I bow to your intellect, sir. Pardon me, please.

caj13 - 11-18-2019 at 02:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ZipLine

Sorry - I forgot I was talking to idiots. I was hoping you might "get" the philosophical idea behind what he was saying. That could possibly be applied to anything and everything. So never mind.

But then I realize I should assume you are smarter than him. I bow to your intellect, sir. Pardon me, please.

Davids not going to take kindly to you calling him an idiot!

and do you know what a strawman is Zippy? One of the 25 logical fallacies?

could you show me anywhere, or anyplace where I claimed to be "smarter than him?

You can keep on trying to attack me personally - i get it, no way to attack the science, so you have to resort to personal attacks -

Now about those 10's of Millions of data points that say you and your hero are wrong - how do you plan on dealing with them?

Pacifico - 11-18-2019 at 02:32 PM

Here's an interesting article:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/03/04/climate-sciences-myth...

Just food for thought...

So??? The article is about his interview with Judith Curry. Did you even read it? Probably not...You were probably too busy conjuring up your smart ass reply.

I don't disagree that the sea level is rising; it's just not an alarming rate in my opinion. The climate is warming as well...

You seem pretty pretentious, arrogant, and probably have a bloated ego...but hey, that's just how you come off on this forum to people who don't agree with you.

ZipLine - 11-18-2019 at 02:35 PM

Don't get your panties in a knot, caj10. Climate science and science in general is not binary. It's not yes or no. It is to what degree certain things have an impact.

Certainly no one one would think we should chit on the earth and not clean it up. No? I've seen much of the world and I would like it to be clean and pristine. I love this place.

I don't understand your freak out.

caj13 - 11-18-2019 at 03:02 PM

Here's an interesting article:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/03/04/climate-sciences-myth...

Just food for thought...

first as for your rate (AKA the DK argument) please educate yourself on rate change and feedback loops. If you don't understand those - you really are going to be handicapped in trying to understand whats the big deal!

uh how i "come off" to other people - well I don't really care. if that's your criteria for judging my message "he's arrogant, so i can ignore his logic and data" go ahead - keep on making yourself feel good by denigrating me - more power to you! but you and i both know that doesn't change the facts - right!

actually i did read it, and I know of Judith Curry. she is not a climate denier, she simply believes there is to much uncertainty in the signal to make the conclusions that have been made.

She has every right to that opinion, and I do consider it, but when 97 knowledgeable people tell me "yes its happening" and 3 more say - we can't be sure - i am inclined to go with the 97. Not wait for the last 3 to come on board. Thats apparently where I differ from you, as you sit with your fingers crossed, hoping for the 97 to be proven wrong. Notice Curry really does not have published data saying that climate change is not happening, she says the current data are still unclear!

[Edited on 11-18-2019 by caj13]

bajabuddha - 11-18-2019 at 05:51 PM

I don't know which is more comical in this thread...... the flat-earther's "logic" or those who argue with them. :lol:

4x4abc - 11-18-2019 at 06:03 PM

well, in order to argue with the palm tree tribe, you have to use their language

MMc - 11-18-2019 at 07:23 PM

What is a real shame is the whole climate change went political a long time ago. Politics dictates which side you are on for many, some with a critical thought process have changed their minds. The funny thing is many of the "man's responsibility deniers" agree that there is climate change. If we could move on and start to implement the changes, maybe we could make a difference. We need to convince China and India there are better solutions than oil and coal. Coal and oil are the low price leader these days.

4x4abc - 11-18-2019 at 07:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MMc

What is a real shame is the whole climate change went political a long time ago. Politics dictates which side you are on for many, some with a critical thought process have changed their minds. The funny thing is many of the "man's responsibility deniers" agree that there is climate change. If we could move on and start to implement the changes, maybe we could make a difference. We need to convince China and India there are better solutions than oil and coal. Coal and oil are the low price leader these days.

you won't convince anyone

if there is a way to make money with improving CO2 (and some other stuff) then there will be cleaner air
No money? No action.

mtgoat666 - 11-18-2019 at 08:04 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MMc

you won't convince anyone

if there is a way to make money with improving CO2 (and some other stuff) then there will be cleaner air
No money? No action.

Once gringos got a comfortable std of living, they all wanted to drive big cars, do everything big. Gringos are all driving full size pickups and other gas guzzlers, living in too-large houses. Chinese and Indians are all gonna wanna drive f-350s too as soon as their incomes allow such. Addicted to oil!
The world is f#cked! The human race will die off in a global hot house, rampant pollution, etc. If an asteroid doesn’t wipe us all out first.

Cliffy - 11-18-2019 at 11:26 PM

Hello again :-)

Interesting how things go round and round, year after year

Interesting how some are of the opinion that unless one has an advanced degree in a certain subject their "opinion" has no weight. I guess it must mean that one can not be educated in one discipline and then reeducated in another. Seems I know of a person who by that reasoning has no business in the field of paleontology as he has no degree in that subject yet he knows enough about it to stand with anyone in the field AND he even has a newly found dinosaur named after him. But I digress.

Seems there is currently an Adjunct Professor that was fired from her position because she can prove that the current lack of northern ice has not had a deleterious affect on polar bears (quite the contrary) as the current "educated" thinking on "Global Change" is predicting. Her work was refused even for a peer review because it was contra to "established" thinking.

Seem that someone else in under the gun for countering the claims of walruses being "forced" into large groups on small islands up north and then jumping off high cliffs to their death due to - again- "climate change". A difference of opinion (with relating data and info) yet soundly denounced due to the differing opinion. Silence the opposition at all costs.

I still come back to the question of how many climate models are there out there and how many have actually "predicted" what is actually happening? Only one IIRC out of what/ 22, 23 or so models?

Once again we are back to the position of in the 60s it was "global cooling and an Ice Age was a comin'", later it was global warming and the earth was going to die before our eyes and then when global warming couldn't be substantiated the name was changed to "Global Change" and the argument was just recycled again.

I agree with climate change. Climate has always changed on the earth but what and how much affect do we, as humans, have on it or to what affect can we change it is THE question. The earth has a remarkable affinity to heal itself.

We can go back and review all the early literature and also the anomalies that were found in the early data collection that even the first guy in charge agreed that his data was suspect.

Some even say we are in a cooling trend that might even be the start of a mini Ice Age. Oh, but maybe they aren't of the elite academia crowd that know everything. Let's just disavow what they have to say and silence them instead of having a discussion

For me, too little data (some suspect) over too little of a time period compared to the age of the earth to make any valid predictions. And that's all they are- predictions. When you can "predict" next months weather day by day with 95% accuracy then maybe I'll believe in your predictions of the demise of the earth.

Then again, maybe AOC is correct and the earth will end in 10 years.
I think I hear Chicken Little calling :-)

MMc - 11-18-2019 at 11:32 PM

Goat, that you are a American makes you a 1% of the riches of the world.
You are such a hypocrite.

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote: Originally posted by MMc

you won't convince anyone

if there is a way to make money with improving CO2 (and some other stuff) then there will be cleaner air
No money? No action.

LancairDriver - 11-19-2019 at 12:05 AM

The world is full of educated fools who have large followings that worship their credentials. This has never been more apparent than it is presently. There are simply too many world inhabitants consuming an unsustainable amount of resources and has long since passed the point of no return. Goat has come to the most logical conclusion as to the ultimate world disposition in my opinion. Just when is anyone’s guess.

caj13 - 11-19-2019 at 07:47 AM

Clify, good to have you back -
to address some of your points:

Hello again :-)

Interesting how things go round and round, year after year

Interesting how some are of the opinion that unless one has an advanced degree in a certain subject their "opinion" has no weight. I guess it must mean that one can not be educated in one discipline and then reeducated in another. Seems I know of a person who by that reasoning has no business in the field of paleontology as he has no degree in that subject yet he knows enough about it to stand with anyone in the field AND he even has a newly found dinosaur named after him. But I digress.

The key here is Reeducate himself Cliffy - this guy doing that - that's fantastic, all it took was a commitment to learning and becoming an expert!
unfortunately, here in this forum, we are not talking about individuals interested in educating themselves. just the contrary - we are dealing with those who are willfully ignorant - and proud of it. They studiously avoid even looking at any data or study or evidence that they may be wrong. When presented with the opportunity to educate themselves, they typically turn to personal attacks on those pointing out their lack of knowledge on the subject, and their determined effort to remain uneducated on the subject!

Hello again :-)

Seems there is currently an Adjunct Professor that was fired from her position because she can prove that the current lack of northern ice has not had a deleterious affect on polar bears (quite the contrary) as the current "educated" thinking on "Global Change" is predicting. Her work was refused even for a peer review because it was contra to "established" thinking.

Can you give me sources for this story Cliffy?
I'd really like to know the whole story here. I do know there is significant data and research that shows detrimental effects on polar bears - but I'm not familiar with this woman's work. I would like to see it for myself.
It seems like the story you are telling - well I'm not sure she was fired because she can prove that global warming is beneficial to the bears.
And as for her work being rejected by peer review - first of all, that happens all the time - rejection rates of peer reviewed journals are quite high - actually Nature has a 93% rejection rate, Science has a 97% rejection rate - that is the point of peer review. Apparently she could not convince the scientists who reviewed it that here data was either accurate, or analyzed properly, or collected properly etc. Scientific papers are not rejected for their conclusions - they are rejected because they did something wrong in their methods etc. so if you could please provide me with a starting place, I will research this story and report back here!

Seem that someone else in under the gun for countering the claims of walruses being "forced" into large groups on small islands up north and then jumping off high cliffs to their death due to - again- "climate change". A difference of opinion (with relating data and info) yet soundly denounced due to the differing opinion. Silence the opposition at all costs.

Ok so once again, can I ask for references to this story - i want to look into it, do a bit of my own secondary research, i will report back!

I still come back to the question of how many climate models are there out there and how many have actually "predicted" what is actually happening? Only one IIRC out of what/ 22, 23 or so models?

Actually most models have made pretty accurate predictions - do you want to look at a specific set/ which ones? and what is your standard of accuracy? ie how close does it need to be for you to judge it as accurate?

Once again we are back to the position of in the 60s it was "global cooling and an Ice Age was a comin'", later it was global warming and the earth was going to die before our eyes and then when global warming couldn't be substantiated the name was changed to "Global Change" and the argument was just recycled again.

Now you are veering off the track of discussion into mindless parroting of previously debunked nonsense claims made by your demigod Heller - the Jr High school substitute teacher, and others who are unqualified but on the payroll of big oil. This claim is made ad infinitum by people with no knowledge of what they are parroting! Had you actually taken the time to research this claim, you would have found out it was your arch-enemy "the mainstream media" who was making the ice age predictions - Turns out science - just the opposite, most papers published back then actually predicted global warming - how about that -
https://skepticalscience.com/ice-age-predictions-in-1970s-in...
and if you would rather not read about it - heres a video addressing that nonsensical "ice age in the 70s claim"
https://www.climate.gov/teaching/resources/70s-they-said-the...

I agree with climate change. Climate has always changed on the earth but what and how much affect do we, as humans, have on it or to what affect can we change it is THE question. The earth has a remarkable affinity to heal itself.

earth can heal itself if we stop insulting it. But thinking the earth will deal with this is like a smoker continuing to smoke when they have lung cancer - because - hey the human body can heal itself! lets give earth a chance!

We can go back and review all the early literature and also the anomalies that were found in the early data collection that even the first guy in charge agreed that his data was suspect.

That's kind of the way science works - early findings are checked and verified by continuing and expanding research. thats what gives science it's power! so is all of the current data suspect as well? if so - specifically why? collected wrong? analyzed wrong? what is it that makes it suspect?

Some even say we are in a cooling trend that might even be the start of a mini Ice Age. Oh, but maybe they aren't of the elite academia crowd that know everything. Let's just disavow what they have to say and silence them instead of having a discussion

This has been debunked many times - cherry-picked data from one specific starting point - look back 1 year or forward one year and all this fairy castle claim comes crashing down. I have explained that here many times - it amazes me how people keep spouting this nonsense when they know its BS.
Your feelings for the educated individuals in this field is noted. You believe anyone who says something that you agree with without questioning. but when presented facts, information, historical context, data demonstrating your belief is wrong - you immediately go to "those elitists don't know anything"!
Tough way to live your life - depending on your mail delivery person to fix your computer!
cognitive dissonance - look it up!

For me, too little data (some suspect) over too little of a time period compared to the age of the earth to make any valid predictions. And that's all they are- predictions. When you can "predict" next months weather day by day with 95% accuracy then maybe I'll believe in your predictions of the demise of the earth.

ah - once again, the issue with not knowing the difference between climate and weather. and you use that ignorance as a building point for your arguments - maybe you ought to rethink that strategy!

How much data would you need? tens of millions of data points spread across 750 million years of earths history?. I'm just curious as to what is your tipping point? how much more data - over how long of a period would be adequate for you?
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/data-access/paleoclimatology-data