BajaNomad

Lost Ship of the Desert, new search in Baja on Sci Channel.

David K - 11-13-2019 at 11:14 AM

A new search for the lost ship (a lost ship) was Episode 1 for this new show, Unexplained and Unexplored. It includes my friends Robert Marcos and John Grasson and takes the search team south of Mexicali:

https://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/unexplained-and-unex...

StuckSucks - 11-13-2019 at 11:33 AM

This lost ship is roughly in the Colorado delta?

Nikno - 11-13-2019 at 11:34 AM

Excited to watch this tonight. San Diego Reader recently had an article about the pirate ship:

https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2019/may/15/feature-remn...

If anyone plans on going out there to search for it, don't even try going in the summer months. 120+ degree days are common and people perish there every year. There are emergency towers all across the Laguna Salada because so many people have died out there.

David K - 11-13-2019 at 11:42 AM

Nikno, that was Robert Marcos who wrote the Reader article. You can see replies by me and John Grasson below it, too.

mtgoat666 - 11-13-2019 at 12:09 PM

while you are out in the delta looking for the "lost ship," please take some time to hunt for snipes and unicorns too.

caj13 - 11-13-2019 at 12:13 PM

let me guess how this ends.
don't find anything, except a few spurious objects that they morph into flimsy support of their money sucking - get on TV scheme.

This is the same Hunting for big foot / Hitler / lost gold train/ ship/ plane/ amelia erhardtt, lock ness Monster, Amazon civilization story that we see ad infinitum on TV - the public eats it up -

but first you have to believe for some reason the ships split and the small one thinks the Northwest passage is the fast way back to europe - right!

weird that you would burn the other ship - why not leave it partially loaded, leave your small ship behind (or burn it) and have the crew sail the bigger ship with more gold and loot on board.

You have to accept a whole bunch of flimsy supposition to buy off on this - but hey, it got em on TV - sand thats what this is all about - right!

caj13 - 11-13-2019 at 12:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Nikno  
Excited to watch this tonight. San Diego Reader recently had an article about the pirate ship:

https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2019/may/15/feature-remn...

If anyone plans on going out there to search for it, don't even try going in the summer months. 120+ degree days are common and people perish there every year. There are emergency towers all across the Laguna Salada because so many people have died out there.


all those people dying out there, all those searchers, all those medical aid,all those tower builders - etc etc etc, and no one has found anything? nothing? seriously? huh - almost seems like there is nothing there!

Don Pisto - 11-13-2019 at 12:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by caj13  
let me guess how this ends.
don't find anything, except a few spurious objects that they morph into flimsy support of their money sucking - get on TV scheme.

This is the same Hunting for big foot / Hitler / lost gold train/ ship/ plane/ amelia erhardtt, lock ness Monster, Amazon civilization story that we see ad infinitum on TV - the public eats it up -

but first you have to believe for some reason the ships split and the small one thinks the Northwest passage is the fast way back to europe - right!

weird that you would burn the other ship - why not leave it partially loaded, leave your small ship behind (or burn it) and have the crew sail the bigger ship with more gold and loot on board.

You have to accept a whole bunch of flimsy supposition to buy off on this - but hey, it got em on TV - sand thats what this is all about - right!


this aired late night a couple nights ago........you sir are spot on

vacaenbaja - 11-13-2019 at 12:30 PM

Oh Goody. I still am on pins and needles about OAK ISLAND!!
Talk about stretching something out

caj13 - 11-13-2019 at 12:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Nikno, that was Robert Marcos who wrote the Reader article. You can see replies by me and John Grasson below it, too.


several other replies too - most pointing out the inaccuracies in the story!

looks to me like there are a few people who have researched this much more thoroughly than Mr. Marcos

bajaguy - 11-13-2019 at 12:59 PM

And don't forget the WWII German and Japanese submarines and their "secret" base

BajaTed - 11-13-2019 at 03:00 PM

The history of steamboats on the Colorado river is one of my favorite subjects. Read about Herman Ehrenberg, he lived a more colorful life than Wyatt Earp.

David K - 11-13-2019 at 04:09 PM

Yes, caj, regarding the accuracy, I talked to Robert AFTER that Reader article was published. He now knows more.

BajaTed, it is a good subject to learn about... The Colorado Delta Steamboats... before Hoover Dam when you could navigate to Yuma and far beyond!

BajaTed - 11-14-2019 at 09:49 AM

At my other home in Ehrenberg AZ, I have links of chain from a 1860's Colorado river steamboat.
When I went to San Felipe as a teen in the 70's, I saw the same type of chain links.

The river delta has changed a lot since the 1860's
The desert ship is a steamboat

caj13 - 11-14-2019 at 11:13 AM

I don't doubt the steamboat history on the colorado, I look forward to educating myself more on that subject.

But to stay on the original topic, if you were a captain of a sailing ship and the waters you were sailing in kept getting muddier and muddier, and less and less salty, at what point would a seasoned sailor say - uh - there aint no ocean up ahead - clearly this is a delta that drains a big river.

at that point - It seems to me you give up on the idea that its some sort of magic shortcut to the northwest passage - and you turn around and head back to the open ocean.

But purveyers of this particular legend, in order to keep believing - they have to believe that these guys were dumb enough to not figure that out?

wilderone - 11-14-2019 at 11:18 AM

Had a friend who is a dowser. Many years ago (at least 35), he told me he dowsed an outline of a ship in Laguna Salada. Seems like lidar should be able to find something (?)

Don Pisto - 11-14-2019 at 11:36 AM

boat up to Coachella? an old but interesting read.......

https://www.kcet.org/socal-focus/global-warming-storm-surges...

David K - 11-14-2019 at 02:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by wilderone  
Had a friend who is a dowser. Many years ago (at least 35), he told me he dowsed an outline of a ship in Laguna Salada. Seems like lidar should be able to find something (?)


On the show, they used the drone near Hwy. 5 by Rio Hardy rather than over at Laguna Salada (or the upper Laguna Salada, as some call the flats that Hwy. 5 goes over the lower Laguna Salada).

The map used to illustrate the search grid area was not correct as related to the Cocopah mountains. They were east of the mountains on the delta by Hwy. 5 but the TV map showed the grid west of the mountains (in Laguna Salada valley).

These shows are fun to watch but it would be nice if they actually found something! At least on America Unearthed, I showed Scott Wolter the ship petroglyph and not another empty hole in the ground! LOL

John M - 11-14-2019 at 03:03 PM

I also do not wish to hijack this thread but I believe the history of the exploration of the Colorado River can be stretched to this lost ship discussion.

BajaTed has a wonderful opportunity for research by the very nature of where he lives; and this is really local history for him.

Robert Brewster Stanton conducted an exploration from Green River Utah to the mouth of the Colorado to determine whether it was possible to construct a railroad along the river. The Library of Congress has many Stanton photos available through on-line searching. Additionally, one of Stanton's works is linked here

https://www.loc.gov/item/99446133/



This is his listing of Colorado River explorations from 1504 until 1908 (no mention of James White for those of you who know THAT story!). It is a map that can be downloaded in a file as large as 169 mb from the above link. Lots of information is presented.

Steamboats on the Colorado is also an interest of mine. A readily available book on the subject is by Richard E. Lingenfelter "Steamboats on the Colorado River" - nearly 200 pages with a large number of photos. Other titles: "A Voyage on the Colorado - 1878: by Francis Berton; "Captain Isaac Polhamus II Desert Mariner" by Isaac Polhamus IV - these are among many.

Lost ships? I've got a title about that here somewhere I think. I'll try to dig it up and post it.

John M

I found my Lost Ship story, or I ought to say stories for there are several. The November 1953 issue of "Calico Print" pages 31 to 42 contain several different stories.


The main story is by desert writers, one-time owners of Desert Magazine, and long ago acquaintance of ours, Lucile & Harold Weight. Lucile is the Lucile Harris you'll see on the early issues of Desert Magazine. Second story "A Ghost of the Vikings?" by Paul Wilhelm. Third, "Mystery of the Desert" by J.A. Guthrie. Those of you who follow desert writers of the 50s & 60s would guess that L. Burr Belden would have to have a story, this time it's "The Lost Spanish Galleon." There are three additional articles, "The Quest for the Lost Ship" San Bernardion Guardian, and "The Serpent-Necked Canoa" by Ed Stevens followed by "Butcherknife Ike and the Lost Ship" by Adelaide Arnold.

Lastly, the Desert Magazine Subject Index shows the January 1939, March 1977, and March 1966 also have Lost Ship stories.

JM

I'll re-read these short stories and see what gives.



[Edited on 11-14-2019 by John M]

[Edited on 11-14-2019 by John M]

David K - 11-14-2019 at 03:46 PM

Your hijacks are always welcome, John! Anything on Port Isabel to add?

Port Isabel?

John M - 11-14-2019 at 03:53 PM

Yes, I have a good deal on that. Something specific?

John

StuckSucks - 11-14-2019 at 03:57 PM

VERY impressive. Gotta zoom in to see what's going on.
Quote: Originally posted by John M  
https://www.loc.gov/item/99446133/

BajaTed - 11-14-2019 at 04:42 PM

Here is a very good read about Ehrenberg and historic La Paz 6 miles away. I've been exploring La Paz for over 10 years and have found sections of the historic Ehrenberg road

What is the Baja connection?
H. Ehrenberg in 1854 was shipwrecked on an island in the Sea of Cortez, SOMEHOW traveled by FOOT through Baja, Sonora and into AZ.

http://www.ecv5917.com/Articles/LapazByStragnell.html

BTW, Mike Goldwater was the grandfather of Barry Goldwater, who was more conservative than Nixon

caj13 - 11-14-2019 at 05:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by wilderone  
Had a friend who is a dowser. Many years ago (at least 35), he told me he dowsed an outline of a ship in Laguna Salada. Seems like lidar should be able to find something (?)

Unless of course the Dowser was blowing smoke up your skirt!

wilderone - 11-14-2019 at 06:39 PM

Ha! I've seen him in action more than once - as to those occasions he was correct.

caj13 - 11-15-2019 at 07:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by wilderone  
Ha! I've seen him in action more than once - as to those occasions he was correct.


Bahahaahaahaaa!

David K - 11-15-2019 at 10:43 AM

We met a dowser in Guadalupe Canyon... He claimed he could find buried metal as easily as he could find water. We hid a metal object to test him... and sure enough... he located it.

bajaric - 11-15-2019 at 10:59 AM

Dowsing is a bit controversial. I saw a dowser locate a spot for a well, only thirty feet from an existing dry well and they drilled down and hit a gusher that now irrigates a vineyard. I don't believe in it myself but perhaps the power of positive thinking has something to do with it.

Regarding the lost ship of the desert, I have heard several versions over the years, but I have to say that the odds of the Content heading north into the Sea of Cortez is nil. They were English, and would have known of Drake's voyage, which sailed north all the way to Drake's Bay before giving up on the Strait of Anain and heading west across the Pacific eventually returning to England, having circumnavigated the globe. The Content most likely lies on the bottom of the Pacific, sprung a leak and sank with her heavy cargo.

EDIT: The odds of the Content heading north is almost nil. (added almost) The destination was south, not north, and although the Spaniards tried to keep their navigational secrets the English must have known that the Manila Galleons departed Acapulco, went across the Pacific on the trade winds, and returned across the northern Pacific to alta California and then back south to Acapulco. At that time navigators were able to determine latitude and they would have sailed to the south to catch the trades, not bucked the wind to the north and west, unless.... The Capitan decided to sail north for some reason, maybe to take a stab a the straight, or in hopes of a west wind across the Pacific further north, and thinking that Baja was an island got swept into the Laguna Salada on a big tidal bore. As I recall a steamship sunk due to the same reason. end of edit

Caj, the reason they would have burned the Galleon was because it took a crew of several hundred men to sail a large ship like that (600 tuns), after a long voyage in tropical seas it would have been leaking like a sieve from shipworms and required constant pumping.

An excellent reference for history of the early sea voyages is The Southern Voyages by Morison. Of note is that Cavenidish was cold hearted to the point of being a sociopath, and possibly incompetent. The capture of the Spanish Galleon may have been a lucky fluke; when he tried to repeat the same voyage a few years later he failed miserably and died at sea along with most of the crew. However, upon his return from the first voyage he was considered a hero of England, and had an audience with Queen Elizabeth, who wittily said "Their ships loaded with gold and silver from the Indies come hither after all" (Morison)

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[Edited on 11-15-2019 by bajaric]

advrider - 11-16-2019 at 10:34 AM

Really enjoyed the story and links to the other good material... So many things could have happened, but it sure would be cool to stumble on a ship while out in the desert... When I was young my grandfather took me all over the US looking for gold and treasure so these kinds of stories always get my attention... Thanks for posting.