BajaNomad

INDIAN LABOR AT THE CALIFORNIA MISSIONS SLAVERY OR SALVATION?

mtgoat666 - 6-22-2020 at 07:44 AM

INDIAN LABOR AT THE CALIFORNIA MISSIONS SLAVERY OR SALVATION?

https://sandiegohistory.org/journal/1978/april/labor/

Form this scholarly article, it sounds like Forced conversion to Catholicism and living in the missions was was akin to slavery...

“ La Pérouse left a picture of a highly regularized communal system in which transgressions of rules made by the Franciscans were swiftly punished. Indians lived in crude huts and life was carefully regulated by the ringing of a bell. Discipline ultimately depended upon physical abuse and this was pointed out by the foreigner.

‘Corporal punishment is inflicted on the Indians of both sexes who neglect the exercises of piety, and many sins, which are left in Europe to the divine justice, are here punished by iron and stocks. And lastly, to complete the similtude between this and other religious communities, it must be observed, that the moment an Indian is baptised, the effect is the same as if he had pronounced a vow for life. If he escape, to reside with his relations in the independent villages, he is summoned three times to return, and if he refuse, the missionaries apply to the governor, who sends soldiers to seize him in the midst of his family, and conduct him to the mission, where he is condemned to receive a certain number of lashes, with the whip.’ “


white whale - 6-22-2020 at 09:35 AM

Timely. Very interesting article. I'm waiting for this shoe to drop next.
The Church has ALOT of closets and laundry that can and should be examined.

The '86 film , The Mission is a great depiction of the time.

pacificobob - 6-22-2020 at 05:17 PM

ah...i think those sweet old padres loved and cared for the poor savages like a loving parents care for darling retarded children......except for the forced labor,rape, and disease.

caj13 - 6-22-2020 at 06:09 PM

You are all going to Hell, father David K will be here soon do damn all of you to hell, and clarify the history as He wants it written!

bajatrailrider - 6-22-2020 at 06:24 PM

:light::light::bounce: don't blame David blow hards stir up the pot. Maybe move on something that matters.:bounce::light:

Salsa - 6-22-2020 at 07:09 PM

I wonder what generations will find to criticize us for doing what we think is OK now.

Don

Amen

thebajarunner - 6-22-2020 at 07:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bajatrailrider  
:light::light::bounce: don't blame David blow hards stir up the pot. Maybe move on something that matters.:bounce::light:


Well said, Larry.

At this rate even Jesus will be torn down
Oh, wait, it already happened today....
If that does not define how far out of control this whole thing has gotten, then there is no limit to where it will go.....

4x4abc - 6-22-2020 at 07:39 PM

of course it was slavery - whatever name you use for it
making the Baja indians dependent on mission grown food was as bad as giving US indians free alcohol
just another textbook manipulation by the master race

makes you wonder how many little indian boys have been introduced to "god's will" by the priests


[Edited on 6-23-2020 by 4x4abc]

bajatrailrider - 6-22-2020 at 08:13 PM

All ture or not better worry about what your doing tomorrow. Then what non blow hards did before we where born.:bounce:

JZ - 6-22-2020 at 08:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bajatrailrider  
All ture or not better worry about what your doing tomorrow. Then what non blow hards did before we where born.:bounce:


I subscribe to this 100%

David K - 6-22-2020 at 08:37 PM

I am only interested in facts, the facts that we know of. If and when new information is found about the past, I welcome it!
If you have my book then you can read that in the beginning.
My book is about these artifacts from the past and how they came to be constructed on the rugged peninsula we love. That is what is fascinating to me!

John Harper - 6-23-2020 at 04:15 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Salsa  
I wonder what future generations will find to criticize us for doing what we think is OK now.


Selfies, Facebook, and Twitter.

John

[Edited on 6-23-2020 by John Harper]

gnukid - 6-23-2020 at 07:01 AM

Indians were indoctrinated at Missions and in doing so, their labor contributed to the work while they were abused, they contributed to their own demise. It is wrong that abuses occurred, Indians suffered from aggressions from the Missionaries and from invading pirates and cowboys too along with Mestizos.

Indians did have their own military and some fought back, the Missionary engagement with indigenous doesn't entirely define the region or people, it represents an era of conquest in a region that was beautiful, yet, barren, harsh, and difficult to survive.

There has always existed mobility and immigration, people came and left. Indigenous went north and eventually Missions were abandoned by order.

Today there exists a large population of Indian Nations in the southwest of USA and Northern Mexico, including Seri, Yaqui and many many more Nations. Missionaries still are perceived as intolerant, dogmatic, hypocrites, who continue to prosthelytize in a nonsensical manner today, arriving with gifts, once accepted and opened by children, the Missionaries explain to the children they are going to hell unless they choose a new god, now it's Jesus over God, versus God over Jesus, just a click of the Trinity on its axis, to tweak the plebes.

There is something to be learned from both the experience of the Indigenous and Missionaries, relevant to today, a life lived without thoughtful critical introspection, spirituality and self analysis, will cause you fall to the impulse of others.

Failing to fight to maintain your spirituality, morality, ethics, in your community, while respecting your own beliefs and others too, failing to fight for survival against invaders, usurpers, you will be abused, used and eventually destroyed, if you allow others to take over your land, community and way of life.

Today, we are in a similar state, in the very same Mission locations, our communities are under attack, by spiritual usurpers claiming eminent domain, globalists, attempting to take control of our National local lands and resources while destroying community with lies, tricks, illness, gifts, for their own benefit of control and wealth. Today is the day to learn from the plight of Indians, Mestizos, Missionaries, and fight back against theological and cultural invaders disguised as health missionaries attempting to take over our health, land, resources and destroy our community.

Honest Injun ?

MrBillM - 6-23-2020 at 04:27 PM

Those Papist Padres were tight with their Wampum, spoke with forked tongues and weren't really Kemosabes looking to peaceably Powwow?

For shame ! Whoda thunk ?

I can't say what others may, but I'll not be looking favorably upon any of those monstrous monks should I run across one.

Just goes to show .............. Never trust a father figure dressed in a dress.

I guess.



wessongroup - 6-24-2020 at 03:07 AM

:lol::lol:

Sjsam - 6-24-2020 at 05:51 AM

If any of you have a interest in slavery of indignas Indians in Mexico you should read Barbarous Mexico by John Kenneth Turner.Published 1909 .A real eye opener

pacificobob - 6-24-2020 at 06:04 AM

thanks sjsam, I'll check it out

bajaric - 6-24-2020 at 11:10 AM

Goat, you should write headlines for Yahoo. Not quite click bait, but not quite accurate either.

I would say that the Indians in the late missionary period in Alta California that this article references were not slaves, at least in the economic sense, in that they were not bought and sold as private property. It was more a case of "Beat the devil out of them".

Actually, the indigenous of Mexico under the Spanish system ultimately fared better than the Indians in the United States. In the US, colonized by married Englishmen, the natives were rounded up and herded on to reservations. In Mexico, colonized by Spanish soldiers, the young single men, as young single men are prone to do, noticed the beauty of the native women and created a vigorous new race, that of the mestizo. Thus, in evolutionary terms, the Indians of Mexico passed on their genes to millions upon millions of offspring, an evolutionary success.



[Edited on 6-24-2020 by bajaric]

BajaBlanca - 6-24-2020 at 12:51 PM

Thanks for the reference to the book Shsam - can I ask how you came across it?

1bobo - 6-25-2020 at 05:20 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
of course it was slavery - whatever name you use for it
making the Baja indians dependent on mission grown food was as bad as giving US indians free alcohol



[Edited on 6-23-2020 by 4x4abc]


I wonder if this applies to the modern welfare state?

surabi - 6-25-2020 at 10:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bajaric  
In Mexico, colonized by Spanish soldiers, the young single men, as young single men are prone to do, noticed the beauty of the native women and created a vigorous new race, that of the mestizo. [Edited on 6-24-2020 by bajaric]


Gee, you make it sound so romantic. As if they were dating. Shame on you.

Let me fix it so it's accurate.

"In Mexico, colonized by Spanish soldiers, the soldiers, as invading armies are prone to do, raped the native women."

[Edited on 6-26-2020 by surabi]

bajaric - 6-26-2020 at 12:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi  
Quote: Originally posted by bajaric  
In Mexico, colonized by Spanish soldiers, the young single men, as young single men are prone to do, noticed the beauty of the native women and created a vigorous new race, that of the mestizo. [Edited on 6-24-2020 by bajaric]


Gee, you make it sound so romantic. As if they were dating. Shame on you.

Let me fix it so it's accurate.

"In Mexico, colonized by Spanish soldiers, the soldiers, as invading armies are prone to do, raped the native women."

[Edited on 6-26-2020 by surabi]


My way of saying was it much nicer. Besides, I am quite sure that in many cases the offspring of Spanish soldiers and indigenous women was a result of mutual attraction, not the brutal alternative that you suggest. It points out the difficulty of looking at history through the lens of modern sensibilities.


[Edited on 6-26-2020 by bajaric]

surabi - 6-26-2020 at 04:35 PM

Your way of stating it was much nicer? There's nothing nice about invading another country or raping the victims. And it's not often that you find "mutual attraction" between colonizers and the invaded.

Yours is a case of magical thinking with no basis in reality.

LancairDriver - 6-26-2020 at 05:38 PM

If the writings of Bartolome’ de Las Casas , who was in campaigns under Cortez, Pizzaro, and other genocidal actions of the early 1500’s had been heeded we would be having an entirely different conversation today.He was outraged with the treatment of the Indians and carried his concerns all the way to the top Spanish authorities including the King, for all the good it did. There is a short account that He published that was very popular in Europe.
The “Short account of the Destruction of the Indies in 1542” describes atrocities then being committed to this day, and for the same reasons. This is available in paperback or on Kindle. Very good read. Don’t waste your time complaining about the religious slant popular in that period.

pmiller - 6-26-2020 at 05:55 PM

mtgoat666's recap of the friars and the Mexicans doesn't sound that much different from the Catholic altar boys of my youth or for that matter Penn State Football.

"Mortal sin" and "burning in hell for eternity" were the more modern methods of coercion vs. beatings and stocks. Plus the parents were required to be there every Sunday with money in an envelope to keep the abusers in liquor.

I am not sure it is a "white man" thing. Maybe more of a "gay" thing.

What it really is is a stupidity thing, then and now.

Barry A. - 6-26-2020 at 05:55 PM

Good grief!!!! If you want to mentally agonize about the past, then that is your choice. People living today hopefully have evolved, knowing the problems of the past in human history. Lets get on with today, and stop agonizing about the past.

Life is great!!! Enjoy it.

Barry

Juan N. - 6-26-2020 at 08:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi  
Quote: Originally posted by bajaric  
In Mexico, colonized by Spanish soldiers, the young single men, as young single men are prone to do, noticed the beauty of the native women and created a vigorous new race, that of the mestizo. [Edited on 6-24-2020 by bajaric]


Gee, you make it sound so romantic. As if they were dating. Shame on you.

Let me fix it so it's accurate.

"In Mexico, colonized by Spanish soldiers, the soldiers, as invading armies are prone to do, raped the native women."

[Edited on 6-26-2020 by surabi]


Now there is a great example of overly simplified revisionists history. Bit to ideological. Native women readily married Spanish soldiers as it meant an increase in status and a better life for them and their children. Did racism and sexism play a role in this dynamic? Yes, it is still considerably more common for white men to marry non white women than white women to marry non white men, an example of how far we still have to go.
These women did have some agency and yes even fell in love,speant their lives with their husbands, and raised families. We are talking about human beings. The metizo population of the Americas is not the result of mass rape.

[Edited on 6-27-2020 by Juan N.]

mtgoat666 - 6-26-2020 at 08:49 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
Good grief!!!! If you want to mentally agonize about the past, then that is your choice. People living today hopefully have evolved, knowing the problems of the past in human history. Lets get on with today, and stop agonizing about the past.

Life is great!!! Enjoy it.

Barry


When the white majority erect statues in the city center to venerate white supremacists, minorities who care about their community should tear down the symbols of hate erected by the racist white majority!
When racists erect statues at city hall to honor racists, every moral person should strongly object and tear down the symbols of hate!
Barry, shame on you for criticizing people trying to right wrongs!
Trump and his hateful menagerie are on an an express train to hell, less than a year before we complete the exorcism of hate from government!

surabi - 6-26-2020 at 09:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Juan N.  
Quote: Originally posted by surabi  
Quote: Originally posted by bajaric  
In Mexico, colonized by Spanish soldiers, the young single men, as young single men are prone to do, noticed the beauty of the native women and created a vigorous new race, that of the mestizo. [Edited on 6-24-2020 by bajaric]


Gee, you make it sound so romantic. As if they were dating. Shame on you.

Let me fix it so it's accurate.

"In Mexico, colonized by Spanish soldiers, the soldiers, as invading armies are prone to do, raped the native women."

[Edited on 6-26-2020 by surabi]


Now there is a great example of overly simplified revisionists history. Bit to ideological. Native women readily married Spanish soldiers as it meant an increase in status and a better life for them and their children. Did racism and sexism play a role in this dynamic? Yes, it is still considerably more common for white men to marry non white women than white women to marry non white men, an example of how far we still have to go.
These women did have some agency and yes even fell in love,speant their lives with their husbands, and raised families. We are talking about human beings. The metizo population of the Americas is not the result of mass rape.

[Edited on 6-27-2020 by Juan N.]


Thanks so much for mansplaining.

Juan N. - 6-26-2020 at 09:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi  
Quote: Originally posted by Juan N.  
Quote: Originally posted by surabi  
Quote: Originally posted by bajaric  
In Mexico, colonized by Spanish soldiers, the young single men, as young single men are prone to do, noticed the beauty of the native women and created a vigorous new race, that of the mestizo. [Edited on 6-24-2020 by bajaric]


Gee, you make it sound so romantic. As if they were dating. Shame on you.

Let me fix it so it's accurate.

"In Mexico, colonized by Spanish soldiers, the soldiers, as invading armies are prone to do, raped the native women."

[Edited on 6-26-2020 by surabi]


Now there is a great example of overly simplified revisionists history. Bit to ideological. Native women readily married Spanish soldiers as it meant an increase in status and a better life for them and their children. Did racism and sexism play a role in this dynamic? Yes, it is still considerably more common for white men to marry non white women than white women to marry non white men, an example of how far we still have to go.
These women did have some agency and yes even fell in love,speant their lives with their husbands, and raised families. We are talking about human beings. The metizo population of the Americas is not the result of mass rape.

[Edited on 6-27-2020 by Juan N.]


Thanks so much for mansplaining.


That's a cop-out, a weak one at that. Cute.

[Edited on 6-27-2020 by Juan N.]

Pick up the Pace ?

MrBillM - 6-27-2020 at 09:36 AM

While the continuing efforts to resolve the "mission-building Spaniards v. Aborigines" question is unquestionably critical to the future of world relations and the discourse here is (at times) entertaining, with five centuries of social trivial pursuit still to be covered .................. shouldn't we all just get along and move on ?

How are we going to resolve all of those historical ills at this rate ?

bajaric - 6-27-2020 at 11:15 AM



Welcome to the sand box Juan, and I agree with you.

Don't mind the old codgers --


David K - 6-27-2020 at 01:53 PM

Yes, welcome Juan... I have to bite my tongue to keep from reacting too quickly to the incredible amount of ignorance a few readily display here... all in some kind of effort so that they get kudos from fellow 'newthink' re-education-camp graduates!

When one reads the history written by those alive at the time, a more direct understanding of both what happened and what was their reasoning, can be made.

Most soldiers were good Catholics and married their mates. Things did change dramatically when the government took over the California missions (1768) with the removal of the Jesuits, and like any big government program, life for the people went to hell. There was some bad apples. However, to lump the entire 150+ years of the missions into the basket of bad stuff is very inaccurate. I won't go on, it is a beautiful day and I don't want to stay indoors.

Judging the Past is a Blast

MrBillM - 6-28-2020 at 08:43 AM

The GREAT thing about critically rehashing centuries-old ills is the lack of responsibility to actually DO anything.

From the comfort of one's keyboard, sipping a cuppa java (or a cerveza ?), guilt can be argued and judgement rendered without effort, inconvenience or cost.

With all of the adversaries long ago dead, one is comforted with a satisfying glow of righteous self-esteem with no actual involvement.

Carry On, History Harpies.

Have FUN ............

MrBillM - 6-28-2020 at 09:56 AM

With that "feel good" stuff.

In my own "Acerbic" manner, that IS what I'm saying.

Recognizing that Historical Hysteria of this sort accomplishes nothing beyond massaging egos while displaying piety in repetitious restatements of moral rectitude, I wish them "Bon Chance" in their esteem-enhancement.

As I've noted long before regarding various verbal jousts of this sort, there are NO minds to be molded. This forum (like most) is populated with confirmed advocates for adversarial positions. The goal is not self-enlightenment, but advocacy.

HAVE FUN.

wessongroup - 6-28-2020 at 11:03 PM

:lol::lol:

Two really good ones

[Edited on 6-29-2020 by wessongroup]

bajatrailrider - 6-29-2020 at 08:26 AM

Wondering if BLM people will want to tear down missions in Baja.

David K - 6-29-2020 at 09:43 AM

The Past is what has made us who we are today.
To erase the past or destroy the artifacts of the past could remove our connection to it.
It doesn't have to be all rainbows and unicorns.
The bad that we overcame is what made us better.
To pretend events didn't happen can only lead to them being repeated.

bajatrailrider - 6-29-2020 at 11:41 AM

Agree David but with today's problems . This info does nothing .

mtgoat666 - 6-29-2020 at 11:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The Past is what has made us who we are today.
To erase the past or destroy the artifacts of the past could remove our connection to it.
It doesn't have to be all rainbows and unicorns.
The bad that we overcame is what made us better.
To pretend events didn't happen can only lead to them being repeated.


Nobody says we are to forget about our past People rightly think we should not venerate our past bad boys.

I seriously doubt it

Ken Cooke - 6-29-2020 at 04:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bajatrailrider  
Wondering if BLM people will want to tear down missions in Baja.

Not BLM, Larry. The BLM is concerned about equal treatment under the 4th Amendment and not searching for missions to destroy or damage. You would have to ask what the 'N8V' activists what their opinion of the missions is. But, I doubt they want to damage the missions, either.

[Edited on 6-29-2020 by Ken Cooke]

Lessons from the Past

MrBillM - 6-29-2020 at 05:56 PM

Given the current "Bend Over and Spread the Cheeks" we're seeing from elected and appointed officials, the most important lesson that we can learn from the past comes from the Wild West days when personal defense was, in fact, PERSONAL.

With it becoming likely that we'll be on our own when the mob shows up ............ Lock and Load.

Ken Cooke - 6-29-2020 at 09:19 PM

caj13 - 6-30-2020 at 07:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
Given the current "Bend Over and Spread the Cheeks" we're seeing from elected and appointed officials, the most important lesson that we can learn from the past comes from the Wild West days when personal defense was, in fact, PERSONAL.

With it becoming likely that we'll be on our own when the mob shows up ............ Lock and Load.


so: you want to shoot black & brown people because they are tearing down statues tied to slavery and suppression!

wow?
and using a gun is how you will defend your white privilege! thats remarkable!

Tioloco - 6-30-2020 at 07:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by caj13  
Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
Given the current "Bend Over and Spread the Cheeks" we're seeing from elected and appointed officials, the most important lesson that we can learn from the past comes from the Wild West days when personal defense was, in fact, PERSONAL.

With it becoming likely that we'll be on our own when the mob shows up ............ Lock and Load.


so: you want to shoot black & brown people because they are tearing down statues tied to slavery and suppression!

wow?
and using a gun is how you will defend your white privilege! thats remarkable!


1st Question Caj13- Why do you assume MrBill is white?

2nd Question Caj13- Why do you assume all of the anarchists that are destroying property are Black or Brown?

3rd Question Caj13- It seems to me he is referring to defending his property by force. Do you think that is not reasonable?

Finally, it doesn’t look to me like MrBill is referring to anything in a racial manner. You on the other hand are trying to make it about race.

Look in the mirror and try to make some improvements for society as a whole, pretty please.

Well, Shoot !

MrBillM - 6-30-2020 at 08:08 AM

I don't want to shoot anyone !

However, having "been there and done that" (including South L.A. 1965), I am fully-prepared (and well-equipped) to deal directly with ANY lawless activity which may endanger myself, my wife, my dog and ANY property.

IF we can no longer depend on the delegated law-enforcement personnel to provide safety and order, we have the right and responsibility to defend ourselves, our property AND an orderly law-abiding society.

NO lawless destruction should be tolerated no matter what the target. Mob activity has no legitimate rationale in our representative constitutional society and should not be tolerated. It certainly won't be tolerated by me.

NO goal justifies this anarchist behavior.



pacificobob - 6-30-2020 at 09:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
I don't want to shoot anyone ! .

NO goal justifies this anarchist behavior.




i don't agree. throughout history events have demanded revolution (anarchist behavior) to bring about change.

John Harper - 6-30-2020 at 09:43 AM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBill  

NO goal justifies this anarchist behavior.


So, when we need patriots to help toss chests of tea into Boston Harbor, I guess we can count you out?

John

[Edited on 6-30-2020 by John Harper]

Tioloco - 6-30-2020 at 09:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob  
Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
I don't want to shoot anyone ! .

NO goal justifies this anarchist behavior.




i don't agree. throughout history events have demanded revolution (anarchist behavior) to bring about change.


What a shameful comparison. You probably should familiarize yourself with the teachings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
But until then, I hope you appreciate your local police force. If you still have one.

Tioloco - 6-30-2020 at 10:00 AM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  
Quote: Originally posted by MrBill  

NO goal justifies this anarchist behavior.


So, when we need patriots to help toss chests of tea into Boston Harbor, I guess we can count you out?

John

[Edited on 6-30-2020 by John Harper]


Do you consider yourself a “patriot”?

paranewbi - 6-30-2020 at 10:00 AM

Castle Doctrine is our friend...

It's the ability to perform application of the law that counts. Look at the lines outside the gun stores.

The indigenous peoples of Baja didn't have the ability.

The anarchists today will know we do.

Tioloco - 6-30-2020 at 10:00 AM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  
Quote: Originally posted by MrBill  

NO goal justifies this anarchist behavior.


So, when we need patriots to help toss chests of tea into Boston Harbor, I guess we can count you out?

John

[Edited on 6-30-2020 by John Harper]


Do you consider yourself a “patriot”?

Tioloco - 6-30-2020 at 10:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho  
Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  
Do you consider yourself a “patriot”?
Hey, how did you generate those opening/closing quote marks around "patriot"? :smug:


I used my fingers. You know, the same thing you use to pull up your skirt.

You Can Count on ME !

MrBillM - 6-30-2020 at 10:33 AM

:saint:To defend whatever that I think is necessary to defend with whatever means that I think necessary to do so.

Mobs of the sort we have witnessed once again have NEVER been satisfied by appeasement and acquiescence. Their actions will only be curtailed by such violence as may be necessary to instill fear within their anarchist ranks. We saw that in the '60s and the '70s. Unfortunately, we're going to have to learn that lesson again.

Fortunately (I suppose), I've reached that period in life where I'm still shooting a good group, but need not concern myself with long-term negative consequences.

BTW, anyone who would attempt to equate the current mob lawlessness with the actions which led to 1776 would do well to spend some time reading more about those Loyal English Subjects striving to attain their equal rights of representation as English Subjects. ONLY when that became unattainable did they decide upon separation.

Interestingly, the Boston Tea Party act itself was the subject of great disagreement among the activists over the proposed destruction of private property. Private Property rights being something considered so fundamental that Benjamin Franklin wanted Jefferson to include it in the Declaration of Independence.

John Harper - 6-30-2020 at 10:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  
Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  
Quote: Originally posted by MrBill  

NO goal justifies this anarchist behavior.


So, when we need patriots to help toss chests of tea into Boston Harbor, I guess we can count you out?

John

[Edited on 6-30-2020 by John Harper]


Do you consider yourself a “patriot”?


I'd toss the first chest of tea over the side.

John

Tioloco - 6-30-2020 at 10:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  
Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  
Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  
Quote: Originally posted by MrBill  

NO goal justifies this anarchist behavior.


So, when we need patriots to help toss chests of tea into Boston Harbor, I guess we can count you out?

John

[Edited on 6-30-2020 by John Harper]


Do you consider yourself a “patriot”?


I'd toss the first chest of tea over the side.

John


It is good to stand for something. Many people dont.

David K - 6-30-2020 at 10:58 AM

Anarchy is the absence of government. The Boston Tea Party was staged to give us a representative government.

RFClark - 6-30-2020 at 12:16 PM

This would be a great time to remember the Civil War in Spain. Spanish population in 1936 was around 25 million deaths from the Civil War range from 500K to 2+ Million and then there are the missing that have never been found, a much higher number! To this day 80 years later the Civil War is still a major topic of discussion in Spain.

The definitive reads are, “For Whom The Bell Tolls” (Fiction) and “The Spanish Civil War - Revised Edition” (History)!

Those who wish to count fellow Americans with differing Political Beliefs as “the enemy” should read and reflect on what Spain endured and is still dealing with 80 years later!

John Harper - 6-30-2020 at 12:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Anarchy is the absence of government. The Boston Tea Party was staged to give us a representative government.


I would wager that an insignificant few of the current protesters consider themselves anarchists. It's just the same old labeling and demonizing by the right of generally peaceful protests.. These protests are about justice, not anarchy. You sound like a broken record.

John

[Edited on 6-30-2020 by John Harper]

pacificobob - 6-30-2020 at 12:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho  
Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  
I used my fingers. You know, the same thing you use to pull up your skirt.

Uncalled for. :(


no to mention rather dick-ish......but if that is all ya got........

RFClark - 6-30-2020 at 01:03 PM

John,

Which part of “Justice” is about Looting and burning plus beating random civilians. Then there is the mass murder of minorities by other minorities! Which part of “Justice” is that?

Tioloco - 6-30-2020 at 01:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob  
Quote: Originally posted by lencho  
Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  
I used my fingers. You know, the same thing you use to pull up your skirt.

Uncalled for. :(


no to mention rather dick-ish......but if that is all ya got........


Was just kidding. I guess my old buddies and I are just a bit more rough around the edges.

Ditching the Duke

MrBillM - 6-30-2020 at 01:27 PM

Forget about a John Wayne statue.

He's soon to be Gone with the Wind of Unconditional Ostracism.

Those "Mostly Peaceful" rioting, burning, looting disciples of historical hysteria want his Racist name wiped off O.C.'s airport and banished to the Sarcophagus of Shame.

The leading (Asian) candidates to replace him are said to be Le Duc Tho or Vo Nguyen Giap, but that is unconfirmed.

John Harper - 6-30-2020 at 01:49 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
John,

Which part of “Justice” is about Looting and burning plus beating random civilians. Then there is the mass murder of minorities by other minorities! Which part of “Justice” is that?


Do we associate everyone on the right with Tim McVeigh? Don't blame 99.9% of the peaceful protesters for a few bad apples.

John

RFClark - 6-30-2020 at 03:00 PM

Well,

McVeigh and friend were two domestic terrorists! They killed 168 people for which they were punished! That was in April 1995. Since that same date there have been on average 564 murders a year just in Chicago alone. Most are minority on minority crimes. Most are unsolved! That’s around 15K in murders just for CHI. Want to add East St Louis and 10 or so other large “Blue” cities to that number. This year Chicago is on a roll with almost 300 murders in the first 6 months that’s up almost 30%!

But “Blue Privilege” and “White Privilege” are the problem, looting and burning neighborhood minority owned stores is the “solution”! (Not)

There have been 2 or 3 minority murders in the police free zone in Seattle just in the last few days! None involving the police!

I’m not associating the peaceful protesters with the violence! I’m saying that they are clueless about what the real problem is or the solution. Most of them have never lived in a mostly minority urban area! How about you? I grew up a mile or so from Watts. My draft board’s office was at 54st & Crenshaw and Killer King Hospital was just down the street!

Ken Cooke - 6-30-2020 at 11:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
Well,

McVeigh and friend were two domestic terrorists! They killed 168 people for which they were punished! That was in April 1995. Since that same date there have been on average 564 murders a year just in Chicago alone. Most are minority on minority crimes. Most are unsolved! That’s around 15K in murders just for CHI. Want to add East St Louis and 10 or so other large “Blue” cities to that number. This year Chicago is on a roll with almost 300 murders in the first 6 months that’s up almost 30%!

But “Blue Privilege” and “White Privilege” are the problem, looting and burning neighborhood minority owned stores is the “solution”! (Not)

There have been 2 or 3 minority murders in the police free zone in Seattle just in the last few days! None involving the police!

I’m not associating the peaceful protesters with the violence! I’m saying that they are clueless about what the real problem is or the solution. Most of them have never lived in a mostly minority urban area! How about you? I grew up a mile or so from Watts. My draft board’s office was at 54st & Crenshaw and Killer King Hospital was just down the street!


85% of whites attack and kill other whites. This is a problem that has been happening across the country and still plagues our nation.

Stop using 'Black-on-Black crime statistics' to pull the focus away from Police brutality.
link: https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/06/stop-using-black-on-b...

White on White crime: An unspoken tragedy
link: https://westtexastribune.com/white-on-white-crime-an-unspoke...

Before attempting to fix my house, you need to get your house in order!:yes:

RFClark - 7-1-2020 at 07:05 AM

Ken,

Recently, where policing has been reduced violence and murder have increased dramatically. In Chicago, NYC, LA, Minneapolis and Seattle! What is your solution?

BajaTed - 7-1-2020 at 08:34 AM

Society and culture are two different things
The strategic societal goals of reducing gang violence is a good thing.
The tactical plan to implement that goal is hindered by the embedded culture of the inner city gangs and the lack of any educational or economic path to transition from that inner city gang culture.

Culture counts, mentoring the correct culture is the path forward. Traditional police work doesn't have this part in their playbook and that is the change our society desires in the job.
Police union's wants NO part of that, so status quo it is as secretly desired by both political parties, but the masses are to wrapped up in their anger to ever begin to see that.

It's Gonna be a Hoot !

MrBillM - 7-1-2020 at 08:52 AM

Those of us who chose decades ago to emigrate from the toxic urban sprawl are (so far) fairly immune from the inevitable crowd chaos and destruction, so it's easy to view the ongoing absurdity as an alternate entertainment medium, especially with the various premium channels offering so much repetitive and limited movie fare.

Eventually, of course, the official "Cheek-Spreading" is going to hit us financially, but so far-so good.

With all of this nonsense about reducing the (already insufficient) level of law-enforcement, about the worst possible idea that I've heard/seen is that of dispatching "Mental Health Counselors" instead of armed officers) to calls involving nutcases. Especially, Domestic Disturbances which LE officers consider one of the MOST dangerous calls that they go on.

Should they find enough of those "counselors" dumb enough to give that a try, expect to see a rise in body-bagged counselors.

Which will make for "must-see" TV.

[Edited on 7-1-2020 by MrBillM]

Ken Cooke - 7-1-2020 at 08:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
Ken,

Recently, where policing has been reduced violence and murder have increased dramatically. In Chicago, NYC, LA, Minneapolis and Seattle! What is your solution?


RFClark, Have you been following the George Floyd arrest?

Following Floyd

MrBillM - 7-1-2020 at 10:08 PM

Was a Riot !

Lee - 7-1-2020 at 10:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Ken Cooke  
Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
Ken,

Recently, where policing has been reduced violence and murder have increased dramatically. In Chicago, NYC, LA, Minneapolis and Seattle! What is your solution?


RFClark, Have you been following the George Floyd arrest?


This troll is trying to bait you, Ken. It is arguing for the other side.

Today, President Bunkerboy said Black Lives Matter is a symbol of hate. Bet all the republicans are behind him on that.

Some of those people are posting here.

pacificobob - 7-2-2020 at 08:19 AM

impotus has managed to make racism the defining characteristic of the Republican platform. i was naive for some years thinking we were living in a post racial America. as much as i would like to blame der gropen fuhrer for this, he can only be credited for seeing , enabling ,encouraging and exploiting the fear 40% of Americans have regarding the browning of the usa. there is nothing as easy to sell as fear.

Nothing Sells Fear Better ..............

MrBillM - 7-2-2020 at 09:13 AM

.............. Than having something to FEAR.

Granting that DT is a master at stoking division, crowds rioting, looting, burning and destroying symbols of American (not just Confederate) history while vocalizing their intent to " Burn the System Down " ............ Fear is both reasonable and in need of response.

The mobs ARE to be FEARED.

And FOUGHT.

motoged - 7-2-2020 at 11:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
John,

....Then there is the mass murder of minorities by other minorities! .....


Really? Where and when was that?

It seems most mass murders are done in the usa by crazy white guys....

pacificobob - 7-2-2020 at 12:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
.............. Than having something to FEAR.

Granting that DT is a master at stoking division, crowds rioting, looting, burning and destroying symbols of American (not just Confederate) history while vocalizing their intent to " Burn the System Down " ............ Fear is both reasonable and in need of response.

The mobs ARE to be FEARED.

And FOUGHT.


it worked on you bill....you're frightened. choose not to be. changes need to be made.....it will not happen by voting. voting changes very little....if it did they wouldn't let us do it.

[Edited on 7-2-2020 by pacificobob]

Barry A. - 7-2-2020 at 04:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaTed  
Society and culture are two different things
The strategic societal goals of reducing gang violence is a good thing.
The tactical plan to implement that goal is hindered by the embedded culture of the inner city gangs and the lack of any educational or economic path to transition from that inner city gang culture.

Culture counts, mentoring the correct culture is the path forward. Traditional police work doesn't have this part in their playbook and that is the change our society desires in the job.
Police union's wants NO part of that, so status quo it is as secretly desired by both political parties, but the masses are to wrapped up in their anger to ever begin to see that.


I agree 100%---------bingo!!!!!
Barry

No Fear Here

MrBillM - 7-2-2020 at 06:05 PM

I'm simply ready to do what I've been ready to do (and doing) since teen years. Legally (more or less) shoot anyone who presents a deadly threat. And, I encourage others to be ready to do the same.

Not that any encouragement seems to be necessary. Gun sales are breaking new records daily as citizens become aware that THIS may be IT !

Armageddon !

We were caught by surprise in '65. We've now had plenty of warning.

It will be kill or be killed with none of that nonsense that the cops are going to be there to "Protect and Serve". I've had a gun come to my aid a number of times in six decades and the cops none.

On the one hand, this accumulating crap is frustrating and depressing but, at this stage near the closing end, it's also exciting. Going out with a bang (literally) and taking one or more along beats hell out of a miserable deterioration from (Cancer, Covid, Heart, or ......) disease. I've seen too many rot away in agony to choose that.

Years back, there was an old geezer in Anaheim that made the news when, after numerous incidents, he blew away one of the kids who were constantly trespassing over (and damaging) his lawn and landscaping. As he explained, he was fed up, dying from cancer and said "to hell with it, what can they do to me".

John Harper - 7-3-2020 at 05:00 AM

I've owned firearms for almost 55 years now and feel the same as lencho. It's exceptionally rare that anyone ever encounters a situation where a firearm is needed. Having it come to your aid multiple times is disturbing. I think there's more to your story.

I stopped carrying in bear country, where I now bring bear spray, shown to be more effective from most information I've researched. I want the bear to go away, not kill or wound it. YMMV.

John

pacificobob - 7-3-2020 at 06:56 AM

i have had lots of guns starting at 12YO. never felt the need to "protect" myself with one. the story about some guy dying of cancer and shooting people on his his lawn is tragic and sad.....far from an inspiring. please make an attempt to be careful of whom you chose to shoot.

Yeah, It's True !

MrBillM - 7-3-2020 at 09:20 AM

Everyone's life experiences are different.

I'll be the first to admit that my attitude (developed growing up a lot in South L.A.) and the fact that I've commonly owned/carried a firearm since teen years would be the reason that I've so often reached for same in confrontational situations. Perhaps, some (or most, but not all) of those situations "may" have resolved without harm otherwise, BUT that's always the BIG unknown. I do know that resorting to the weapon immediately changed the status of those disputes.

Age, the law and technology have made me more prudent if not less paranoid. Concealed-carry sans permit being changed to a felony (after Masters) along with the changes in the "brandishing" statute and Cel Phones have made past actions inadvisable today. The latter being the reason that I sold off my (2) Sten Guns years ago. A decision I occasionally regret, but it got to the point where one could never be sure that, even out in the remote desert, someone could hear and report that automatic fire and you'd find the CHP waiting when you hit the highway.

The only time that I came seriously close to a REAL problem (N.O.B in Indio) was as much due to late-night fatigue (and alcohol) as anything else. Finding myself in a bad neighborhood in a bad situation, I fired a .45 shot "past" an aggressor's head. Apparently, he stumbled backwards and tripped, but in that fog of fatigue, I thought that I'd mistakenly hit him. Fortunately, it resolved favorably, but it was the principal reason that I left Indio and moved to Yucca Valley. It was clear that my days were numbered if I had stayed.

The one near-disaster S.O.B. was at an army checkpoint when one soldier came within inches of discovering the .380 that I normally carried hidden in the truck. A tense and life-changing moment which makes for a funny story looking back. The LAST time that I ever carried on the highway down south. That .380 is still in Baja. In pieces sans s/n and scattered over the landscape.

Lee - 7-3-2020 at 10:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  

The only time that I came seriously close to a REAL problem (N.O.B in Indio) was as much due to late-night fatigue (and alcohol) as anything else. Finding myself in a bad neighborhood in a bad situation, I fired a .45 shot "past" an aggressor's head. Apparently, he stumbled backwards and tripped, but in that fog of fatigue, I thought that I'd mistakenly hit him. Fortunately, it resolved favorably, but it was the principal reason that I left Indio and moved to Yucca Valley. It was clear that my days were numbered if I had stayed.


Geezsus. Drinking and shooting at people. You want a medal? Only shooting you're doing now is at ghosts in your dreams.

You had the chance to kill people in the military -- and you passed on that, Bill Too bad.

Your bullshlt reads like fantasy. Mr.ToughGuy ranting about shooting people. Watch less TV! And then take this crap over to OT. That's where it belongs.:lol:

pacificobob - 7-3-2020 at 10:30 AM

in aviation we have an expression .....it goes something like this.
a superior aviator is one who uses his superior judgment to avoid situations that require using his superior skills.

i fear some gun owners fantasize about situations where they get to demonstrate just what sort of bad-asses they can be. dovetails beautifully with fear of dark skined folks.


[Edited on 7-3-2020 by pacificobob]

No Medals Needed

MrBillM - 7-3-2020 at 11:09 AM

Were I fantasizing, I'd do a better job at making myself look good.

Especially, those events that night in Indio. THAT was a total F-ck Up in judgement that could have ended very badly. I got as lucky as one DumbAss could get that night.

BTW, speaking of aviation, everytime I took off I landed without incident. Although, there were a couple of "almosts". Does that make me one of the Superiors ?

BajaTed - 7-3-2020 at 11:54 AM

Back to the subject;
It was the concept of euro/christian manifest destiny driving settlers of all types across the America's from east to west(americans) & north to south(spaniards).
Question is what legacy was worse, the loss of land by the first nations or slavery and the confederacy???
The first nations were repatriated with reservation lands and control of their destiny, the black community got 40 acres, a mule and 155 years of the second version of the civil war. Its never been "all lives matter"

pacificobob - 7-3-2020 at 11:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  

The only time that I came seriously close to a REAL problem (N.O.B in Indio) was as much due to late-night fatigue (and alcohol) as anything else. Finding myself in a bad neighborhood in a bad situation, I fired a .45 shot "past" an aggressor's head. Apparently, he stumbled backwards and tripped, but in that fog of fatigue, I thought that I'd mistakenly hit him. Fortunately, it resolved favorably, but it was the principal reason that I left Indio and moved to Yucca Valley. It was clear that my days were numbered if I had stayed.


Geezsus. Drinking and shooting at people. You want a medal? Only shooting you're doing now is at ghosts in your dreams.

You had the chance to kill people in the military -- and you passed on that, Bill Too bad.

Your bullshlt reads like fantasy. Mr.ToughGuy ranting about shooting people. Watch less TV! And then take this crap over to OT. That's where it belongs.:lol:



that's good council lee. i hope it will be heard.

Don Pisto - 7-3-2020 at 12:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob  
Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  

The only time that I came seriously close to a REAL problem (N.O.B in Indio) was as much due to late-night fatigue (and alcohol) as anything else. Finding myself in a bad neighborhood in a bad situation, I fired a .45 shot "past" an aggressor's head. Apparently, he stumbled backwards and tripped, but in that fog of fatigue, I thought that I'd mistakenly hit him. Fortunately, it resolved favorably, but it was the principal reason that I left Indio and moved to Yucca Valley. It was clear that my days were numbered if I had stayed.


Geezsus. Drinking and shooting at people. You want a medal? Only shooting you're doing now is at ghosts in your dreams.

You had the chance to kill people in the military -- and you passed on that, Bill Too bad.

Your bullshlt reads like fantasy. Mr.ToughGuy ranting about shooting people. Watch less TV! And then take this crap over to OT. That's where it belongs.:lol:



that's good council lee. i hope it will be heard.


as the marvelettes would say...don't mess with Bill!

pacificobob - 7-3-2020 at 12:37 PM

i just spit my beer...thanks don

Crazy ?

MrBillM - 7-3-2020 at 01:50 PM

That can't be ME.

I don't own a double. Just a couple of pumps.

And, I haven't had that much hair in many years.

It's OK, though. So many people (sometimes with good reasons) have called me crazy (though school officials phrased it differently) since "Tykehood" that I'm used to it.

BTW, speaking of those "40 acres and a Mule", I don't think that they actually came through. Now, with this reparations business, MAYBE ?

I don't suppose that there are enough spare mules, though. Or, acres ?

Peace, Bros.





From today's Los Angeles Times

Ken Cooke - 7-11-2020 at 12:48 PM

Link:
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-11/san-gabr...

Barry A. - 7-11-2020 at 02:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  


I stopped carrying in bear country, where I now bring bear spray, shown to be more effective from most information I've researched. I want the bear to go away, not kill or wound it. YMMV.

John


Interesting comment. I was the Asst. District Park Ranger in Glacier Natl. Park (Lake McDonald District) way back (1968-'69), and even tho we prohibited firearms in a Natl. Park, all the Rangers that I knew there carried a .357 or .44 magnum revolver concealed-------because of the BEARS!!! I was also the District "Bear Management Officer" during that time, and believe me I was fully armed when dealing with those ornery and unpredictable critters---both Black and Grizzly. Thank God I never had to use that weapon, but I was certainly prepared to do so, and it came close several times.



Barry A. - 7-11-2020 at 02:54 PM

Ref. the destruction of the San Gabriel Mission:

I wonder if any of these Patriots responsible for THIS destruction were involved?:

Link:

https://www.facebook.com/100000227682810/posts/4555466791137...

Lee - 7-11-2020 at 04:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
Ref. the destruction of the San Gabriel Mission:

I wonder if any of these Patriots responsible for THIS destruction were involved?:

Link:

https://www.facebook.com/100000227682810/posts/4555466791137...


Defund police. No qualified immunity. Start sending bad cops to prison. Disband police unions.

Religious backlash is deserved. F’ em.

John Harper - 7-11-2020 at 05:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  


I stopped carrying in bear country, where I now bring bear spray, shown to be more effective from most information I've researched. I want the bear to go away, not kill or wound it. YMMV.

John


Interesting comment. I was the Asst. District Park Ranger in Glacier Natl. Park (Lake McDonald District) way back (1968-'69), and even tho we prohibited firearms in a Natl. Park, all the Rangers that I knew there carried a .357 or .44 magnum revolver concealed-------because of the BEARS!!!


1968? Seriously? Bear spray was not even invented until the 1980's. Carrying a gun was the ONLY option in 1968.

Here's some more recent information. This is pretty much what a ranger also told me last year in Wyoming as well. Times change.

https://above.nasa.gov/safety/documents/Bear/bearspray_vs_bu...

John

[Edited on 7-12-2020 by John Harper]

del mar - 7-11-2020 at 05:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  
Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  
Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  


I stopped carrying in bear country, where I now bring bear spray, shown to be more effective from most information I've researched. I want the bear to go away, not kill or wound it. YMMV.

John


Interesting comment. I was the Asst. District Park Ranger in Glacier Natl. Park (Lake McDonald District) way back (1968-'69), and even tho we prohibited firearms in a Natl. Park, all the Rangers that I knew there carried a .357 or .44 magnum revolver concealed-------because of the BEARS!!!


1968? Seriously? Bear spray was not even invented until the 1980's. Carrying a gun was the ONLY option in 1968.

Here's some more recent information. This is pretty much what a ranger also told me last year in Wyoming as well. Times change.

https://above.nasa.gov/safety/documents/Bear/bearspray_vs_bu...

John

[Edited on 7-12-2020 by John Harper]


very interesting! pretty sure neither one would work for me....frozen in fear:o

Barry A. - 7-11-2020 at 06:30 PM

John Harper---------thanks for bringing me up-to-date, and you make a good point. I know very little about "bear spray", which is now obvious. LOL I spent my last 25 years as a Ranger Pilot in Cape Hatteras (no bears that I knew of) and then the Desert Southwest in S. California and the Sierra Front country. I had had enough of "bears" in Glacier. I am not a fan of bears----way to grouchy and ornery.

Barry

Ken Cooke - 7-11-2020 at 09:22 PM






[Edited on 7-12-2020 by BajaNomad]