BajaNomad - Water for the Indigenous Family $100 needed FUNDED

Water for the Indigenous Family $100 needed FUNDED

BajaBlanca - 11-22-2020 at 05:43 PM

The background story:

We live in the tiny village of La Bocana, it is on the Pacific, in Baja California Sur. There is a local Indian Family with 7 kids living here. Dad had a vasectomy so there will be NO MORE BABIES. They really struggle to even put food on the table. They have no electricity. No water. They were able to slowly pay off a lot close to where they live from a very kind land owner. It took years, but they did it. Which makes me believe in them and for sure want to see them in their own decent home.

The need now:

6 of us here in town pooled funds and piped water to the family's lot.

After piping all the way from the main line to Tidiana and Abraham's lot, they still don't have water! It just does not reach their house. Maddening. The worker who piped it all says that he chose a small pipe which he thought would work. We actually had the same problem at our house for months and months and finally hubby Les reconfigured the system.

This huge family needs water! Cristian the SAPA man will redo the piping with dad Abraham doing most of the work. The local hardware store owner will sell me, at cost, the 6 meters of 2"piping needed for this.

The total for pipes is $85 and I think for $15 we can pay off Cristian and of course, the main worker Abraham will work for free.

Anyone interested in helping out?

Here are the photos of the original layout.

Digging the trench.

Abraham filling trench in with dirt.

Installing a faucet that so far has not seen a drop of water. Frustration 100% for me.

and this last one is me, Blanca, paying off Cristian, the water guy from SAPA.

It would be so amazing to see water flowing to their lot!

:bounce:

[Edited on 11-25-2020 by BajaBlanca]

CaboMagic - 11-22-2020 at 06:19 PM

Covered half ..
We are thankful for what we have,
We are thankful for what you do.
May the spirits of the seasons reach into all hearts and minds.
L&T

AKgringo - 11-22-2020 at 07:25 PM

Before you spend more money on a larger pipe, you need to find out why there is no water flowing through a pipe which may be too small, but there should be some water flowing.

LancairDriver - 11-22-2020 at 07:33 PM

Maybe David K will see this and have some suggestions. He knows the water business.

BajaBlanca - 11-22-2020 at 07:38 PM

THANKS LORI AND TOMMY!

So, what was explained to me is that by installing a bigger pipe at the main line, the water pressure into the smaller line will force the water to go through.

Les says that their lot is also on high ground, like ours. It took us two months to get a drop of water as well since we are up on a hill.

I cannot tell you how frustrating this has been!

mtgoat666 - 11-22-2020 at 09:18 PM

What is water pressure with small line? Increasing diameter will increase rate of flow, but will not change water pressure. If water is not flowing at all, it sounds like you got a blocked line or inadequate pressure.

BTW, Looks like that pipe is buried only 6 or 8 inches below grade. Bury it at least 24 inches to prevent damage and keep water cooler.

Also, Digging a narrow trench with an adze and pick will be easier than digging with a straight edge shovel I see in the pic.

[Edited on 11-23-2020 by mtgoat666]

RnR - 11-22-2020 at 10:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Increasing diameter will increase rate of flow, but will not change water pressure.
[Edited on 11-23-2020 by mtgoat666]

Goat is right.

And something else is wrong.

Adding 20 ft of 2" dia pipe is not going to do anything to change the big picture.

Have somebody (SAPA?) measure the pressure (in psi) at the tap to the main line. Better yet, at the point where you intend to start installing the 2" new pipe.

Have somebody measure the elevation difference (in ft) from the location of the pressure measurement to the outlet of the spigot.

Then, calculate the maximum allowable elevation difference based on the available pressure. Each foot of elevation change consumes (or needs) 0.433 psi to push the water up that one foot.

When you get to the spigot elevation, you will need a minimum of 10 psi left over to get any real flow of water to come out of the spigot. 20 psi would be better.

(There are other pressure losses along the way due to pipe friction losses, but, at low flow rates, these losses are also minimal)

If the available pressure can not overcome the change in elevation, water will never flow from the spigot.

This simplified hydraulic analysis may even be a good, real life engineering problem for the students in the local math class.

If the analysis determines that there should be adequate pressure at the spigot, then something is blocking or plugging the waterline to the property.

[Edited on 11-23-2020 by RnR]

BajaBill74 - 11-23-2020 at 10:53 AM

RnR, what you say is correct. However I might point out that Mexico uses the metric system. (Which is better IMO.)

RnR - 11-23-2020 at 01:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaBill74

RnR, what you say is correct. However I might point out that Mexico uses the metric system. (Which is better IMO.)

Noted !

I am familiar with the metric unit of pressure - Pascal (Pa) or Nm2 (newton/sq meter)

However, I live in a small Mexican village and have never heard anything but "libras" used for a pressure measurement.

(Libras = pounds. Not even pounds/sq in)

Applies to tire pressures, water pressures, the Mx gauges on the water system pumps, etc.

Most length/height measurements are quoted in metric (cm, meter) but just about every albanil that I know can work in ft/inches just as easily as m/cm. Most of their tape measures actually have dual scales.

Mixing Imperial pressure with Metric distance would result in some really strange conversion factors. So, I chose to use Imperial units only.

[Edited on 11-23-2020 by RnR]

gnukid - 11-23-2020 at 02:30 PM

Money is not the issue.

Bigger pipe is not the issue and is not a good idea.

Each home in a pueblo should have max 1/2 inch line to receive an equal share of water, it is strictly against rules for one person to put in larger distribution lines.

The issue usually is the tank and line should be lower in the ground. They will need a pump to move the water from the lower tank to the house or to another higher tank.

Dig hole for the cistern and build it properly. There are no shortcuts.

[Edited on 11-23-2020 by gnukid]

gnukid - 11-23-2020 at 02:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaBlanca

So, what was explained to me is that by installing a bigger pipe at the main line, the water pressure into the smaller line will force the water to go through.

Absolutely not legal, if everyone puts in bigger pipes at every location the whole city water system will fail. Each property must maintain similar pipe size at 1/2 inch to be fair.

BajaBlanca - 11-23-2020 at 04:20 PM

Well, there is no one with any equipment in town to measure any pressure.

Hubbie says pressure is always different, and most likely almost non-existent where they are. Cristian does all the water connections for our whole town. This is not a new problem, I hope and pray that he knows what he is doing.

mtnpop - 11-23-2020 at 06:42 PM

Pretty simple to build a pressure test unit... a pressure gauge and a few pvc fittings u2u me your email and I will send you a pic of one that we made up to use with the RV..
going a couple hundred feet or more with 1/2" pvc will have much friction loss works the same as fire hoses.. the longer they are the less pressure at the nozzle. I can't imagine that changing out the first half with larger pipe then to 1/2 is illegal but what do I know?? you are adding some volume /pressure at the front end...
First thing I would do is check the tap.. the saddle at the conneciton to the main. they may not have punched a good enouth hole at the connection... having dealt with SAPA in Mulege for many years and problems there no telling what the tap is like..
you can also install a 12volt pump in line with a small solar supply to push some pressure also...
Just a few thoughts now my brain hurts... good luck.

[Edited on 11-24-2020 by mtnpop]

advrider - 11-23-2020 at 08:48 PM

I'm good for the $100 but would agree the real problem needs to be figured out. Either way let me know and I will get it set off to you.

Salsa - 11-24-2020 at 11:17 AM

Easy problem to solve.
Los Barriles water system comes through every house in a very small pipe and it is often off. The flow is not enough to take a shower.
Every house has a storage facility for water. Some are underground tanks and some are rooftop tanks.
IF the water is shut off for hours or a day it does not mater.

They need a water storage method.

Don

BajaBlanca - 11-24-2020 at 01:22 PM

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. First off, there are meters at the exit that measure the amount water coming out (at most houses) so I am presuming it does not matter one iota how big or small the pipe is after that meter.

We do need to buy them a tinaco. OK. for a family of 9, maybe more than one since our water is often down as well. Storage storage storage.

oh how I wish I were smarter to understand all these ideas but alas, this is so above my head. so beyond my comprehension. and Les has so many of his own projects, he laughs when I ask for help!!

Thanks advrider, I will keep you appraised.

RnR - 11-24-2020 at 01:57 PM

Blanca,

Here is very low tech investigation to see if you can actually get water to the property.

1. Locate the closest functioning spigot to their property.

It may be a neighbor's house, or somebody's yard hydrant, whatever. As long it is the closest and water comes out of it.

2. Borrow a bunch of garden hoses and start hooking them up, one by one, until you get to their property or next to their new spigot.

Turn on the water after each length or two of hose is connected. If you suddenly reach the limit of water flow out of the last hose length, then, that is it. The water will never go any farther unless the water system pressure is increased in the entire town.

If the water reaches the property through the hose but not through the new pipeline. Then there is plug in the pipeline.

Try the hose system at different times of the day, and night. System pressure may vary depending on the overall usage.

Good Luck.

BajaBlanca - 11-24-2020 at 03:59 PM

RnR

There is property nearby with water.

The new pipeline is 2 months old, Cristian and owner Abraham installed it.

Hoses. Simple enough. We don't get water piped in every day. The system is one day La Bocana, the next Punta Abreojos.

Water pressure to the whole town has been solved by allowing the main storage unit to completely fill before opening it up. If there has been a problem and most tanks or tinacos are empty, Cristian waits until night time when folks do not water the sand.

I wish they would not water the sand but the upside is that most are now creating gardens in their yards! So, now they are watering beautiful gardens and not wasting water on plain sand to keep down the dust.

That is thanks to the pandemic, people spend way more time at home.

Cliffy - 11-25-2020 at 07:43 AM

Don't need garden hoses which they may not have.
Its only 1/2 PVC
Cut the 1/2 inch PVC for the house right near where it connects to the main feed (as close as possible) and see if water flows. If it flows good, Reconnect with a simple glue in PVC coupling. If flow is bad find out why.
Now go to the house and start 50 feet from the house and cut the 1/2 inch line and see if water flows.

Continue every 50 feet (15 meters) to see where the water stops.
You will either find a blockage in the line by finding a good flow of water at one cut than the next OR you will find that there is no flow due to too low of pressure where it starts out at the main connection.
Fix the problem and just reconnect every cut with a simple PVC coupling which they have from the original installation.
Much cheaper this way than adding anything right now.

I doubt that the 2" addition will accomplish anything.

Find out if the water flows at the beginning and where it stops along the line.

My bet is not enough pressure at the beginning or a blockage along the line from dirt getting in the pipe when installed. Happens all the time.

gnukid - 11-25-2020 at 08:29 AM

Rate of fall over distance is a factor, often there is almost no pressure so the water just barely trickles along. I am last in the line for water any many neighbors get no water and have to truck it, so I dug the hole for the cistern 4 meters deep and made sure the 1/2 pipe falls steadily, now I get water as it begins to trickle in everyday over a few hours and use a submersible pump for pressure. I put one tank above the house to keep full for emergency times when the power is out, plus a few barrels here and there.

David K - 11-25-2020 at 08:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by LancairDriver

Maybe David K will see this and have some suggestions. He knows the water business.

I am just now reading this thread and if I knew there was a hydraulic question, I would have sooner! My apologies!

Seems you need to solve a problem with FLOW: Why no flow?

A) Pressure
Water pressure is what moves water through pipes and pressure can be created only in two ways:

A1) Gravity: The more 'down' the water moves from a source, the more pressure will be behind it. 0.433 pounds per square inch (PSI) per foot of elevation. Add going down, subtract going up. Why water tanks for towns are high up on towers or are on hills above town.

A2) Pump: A pump pushes the water and is an artificial source of pressure.

B) FRICTION
Water moving through a pipe has friction with the inside of the pipe. Friction takes away pressure, called Friction Pressure Loss.

Bigger pipe has less friction than smaller, so less pressure is lost at the same flow rate. Charts tell you how much pressure is lost per 100 feet at various rates of flow. Different types of pipe have different friction losses.

A bigger pipe will have less loss of pressure. Use the charts to see what size pipe you need based on the distance and the starting pressure at the source.

*** TO GET MORE WATER PRESSURE at the end of the line: Lower the flow though the existing pipe or increase the pipe size. If you don't have any water at all, then the source does not have enough pressure to push the water through the existing size pipe. Water has weight, and it needs force to move it through a pipe... that force is water pressure!

I have posted all this data on Nomad in the Home Building & Living forum here... from 2014:

Quote: Originally posted by David K

I have been in the irrigation industry since 1980 and in 1992 co-authored a book on how to easily find the flow of water available and the pressure of the water...

Inside, are informative pages on how water works and what changes the pressure and flow of the water...

We made some charts to help see how water pressure and flow changes with elevation and pipe type and size and length...

Here are the basic limits for the flow of water you should not exceed based on pipe size:

Here is how much pressure is lost per 100 feet, based on the flow and size (and type) of pipe:

Two important facts:
You will lose less pressure by going to a larger pipe.
You will lose less pressure by reducing the flow of water.

The above water pressure loss happens as water moves through pipe (addition loss occurs when water moves through valves and fittings (elbows, tees, etc.). These are called DYNAMIC PRESSURE LOSS.

Elevation changes also change water pressure, even when the water is not moving, called STATIC PRESSURE LOSS OR GAIN. Going downhill increases water pressure and going uphill reduces water pressure (0.443 psi per foot):

If you need anything to help with your design, let me know!

If there is more you would like to read about, I will scan more pages from my book. It is no longer in print, but was a best seller in one horticultural catalog for quite a while!

pacificobob - 11-25-2020 at 08:59 AM

I have noticed local plumbers laying pipe. a ditch is dug, the pipe is placed in the ditch. the ends if protected from dirt,gravel ect. at all, have
a bit of paper from a cement bag protecting it. its super common to have rocks, sand and all manner of other crap blocking the full flow.
additionally, using a small pipe size, because going up a size will cost a few more pesos, is no way to save money.

one more thought. in my sphere of living here, the use of the word "Indian" is
reacted to like the "N" word would be north of the border. in my experience "indigenous " is a bunch less offensive.

Barry A. - 11-25-2020 at 09:44 AM

David Kier--------Great information--------many thanks for posting it. I was not aware of your book on the subject, but I will look for it now.

mtgoat666 - 11-25-2020 at 10:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob

I have noticed local plumbers laying pipe. a ditch is dug, the pipe is placed in the ditch. the ends if protected from dirt,gravel ect. at all, have
a bit of paper from a cement bag protecting it. its super common to have rocks, sand and all manner of other crap blocking the full flow.

give your plumber a roll of duct tape or painters tape to cover the pipe ends during construction, avoid debris entering pipe.
tell your plumber to flush line before making end connections, get the sand and rocks out.
it ain't rocket science.

David K - 11-25-2020 at 10:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.

David Kier--------Great information--------many thanks for posting it. I was not aware of your book on the subject, but I will look for it now.

Hi Barry,
Thanks for your interest, but that was back in the 90s and no longer in print. It was sold by a horticulture catalog... even was a "best seller" according to them!
Larry and I just wanted to present the details in a fun way so they could easily be used.
It was my third book, following the two Baja road guides from the 70s.

motoged - 11-25-2020 at 11:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob

one more thought. in my sphere of living here, the use of the word "Indian" is
reacted to like the "N" word would be north of the border. in my experience "indigenous " is a bunch less offensive.

It's all part of "the flow" ...

[Edited on 11-25-2020 by motoged]

BajaBlanca - 11-25-2020 at 11:34 AM

INDIGENOUS it is!

BajaBlanca - 11-25-2020 at 11:37 AM

David, that is a lot of info. Thanks so much.

I am thinking now that I will ask whoever does installations in Punta Abreojos to come over and assess the situation.

David K - 11-25-2020 at 11:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaBlanca

David, that is a lot of info. Thanks so much.

I am thinking now that I will ask whoever does installations in Punta Abreojos to come over and assess the situation.

If you need any additional information on water pipes, pressure, etc., let me know! Wish I was there to help in person...

Tioloco - 11-25-2020 at 02:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob

one more thought. in my sphere of living here, the use of the word "Indian" is
reacted to like the "N" word would be north of the border. in my experience "indigenous " is a bunch less offensive.

It's all part of "the flow" ...

[Edited on 11-25-2020 by motoged]

Wow, the PC police strike again. I happen to live in a part of the country that has many Indian reservations. The Indians have no issues with being called Indian. That is how they refer to themselves as well. When will the non natives (pacificobob and motoged types) stop feeling so important that they know better than everyone else.
Totally ridiculous.

Happy Thanksgiving all!

Tioloco - 11-25-2020 at 03:04 PM

BajaBlanca thank you for always being very helpful with your community and beyond. They are lucky to have you and your help.

motoged - 11-25-2020 at 03:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco

Whooops....I stand corrected by the crazy uncle. Thank you for pointing out that you know better than everyone else.

I have lived in and worked in/with Indian/native/indigenous communities for 30 years. This experience has influenced me to respect how they self identify. Yes, some indigenous do refer to themselves as Indians, some prefer other terms (as "Indian" was a misnomer for native North Americans by some lost white guys).

It is not about "political correctness" (something you appear to be quite distant from in terms of appealing to a caring aspect for others other than yourself), but rather is an issue of respect.

Tioloco - 11-25-2020 at 03:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco

Motoged, Interesting to me that you would refer to respect. You have clearly demonstrated your lack of the ability to respect any opinions different from your own "woke" way of viewing the world.

I appreciate your experiences with Indians and Indigenous groups. But one size just doesnt fit all. Good day hoser.

Chup - 11-25-2020 at 04:51 PM

[/rquote]
Good day hoser.[/rquote]

Take off ya hoser, eh?

bob-and-doug-mckenzie-d988dde6-a4bb-4740-a670-545c64bb7ba-resize-750.jpeg - 65kB

bob-and-doug-mckenzie-d988dde6-a4bb-4740-a670-545c64bb7ba-resize-750.jpeg - 65kB

Sr.vienes - 11-25-2020 at 06:13 PM

Not sure if someone has addressed this yet but it sure sounds like an air lock, When we install water mains in hilly country we have to install air release valves at the peaks of the hills or it will become impossible to force the water through. One way to find where the air is trapped is get some small self drilling stainless screws and
drill in the line where it looks like a peak might be pull it out and see if you get air or water, if your getting water put it back in and move on. Obviously start at the source. I have seen 12” water mains blow up from an air lock and still not force the water through.

advrider - 11-25-2020 at 07:14 PM

I am Indian (American) myself and prefer to be called Indian over native American or any of the other politically correct names. Same goes for many others that share my heritage. Not sure if it's the same in Mexico but we don't take offense by being call our actual name. Not trying to start a political post, just thought I would share some info.

advrider - 11-25-2020 at 07:40 PM

If the timing works out when it comes time to build I would be will to spend a moth helping how ever how I can. I'm a jack of all trades, master of none.

surabi - 11-25-2020 at 10:03 PM

"Bigger pipe has less friction than smaller, so less pressure is lost at the same flow rate. Charts tell you how much pressure is lost per 100 feet at various rates of flow. Different types of pipe have different friction losses.

A bigger pipe will have less loss of pressure. "

Unfortunately, many of the Mexicans who have done work for me and my friends have zero understanding of this, as Baja Blanca's found out. They don't understand hydraulics and have this false notion that reducing the size of the pipe will create more pressure.

My neighbor's so-called plumber put a 3/8 inch pipe from her main up to her tinako on the roof, saying that because we don't get a lot of water pressure here, that would increase the pressure. I told him the pressure would depend on the pressure behind the water, not reducing the size of the pipe, but of course I was just some dumb gringa, so what did I know.

What he did only resulted in it taking all night for her tinako to fill (and sometimes didn't fully fill as they sometimes turn the water off after a few hours), whereas mine filled in half an hour. When she went back up north and tasked me to manage her property, I replaced that skinny pipe with a proper size one and now her tinako fills just fine.

[Edited on 11-26-2020 by surabi]

KasloKid - 11-25-2020 at 11:47 PM

My two cents:
To check for blockage, disconnect both ends, hook a compressor up set for 40 psi and use the air to clean the pipe out. No compressor? Then use a portable air tank. This is a preferred method for checking for leaks. Seal one end of the pipe, fit a valve with a pressure gauge on the other end, pressurize the line, close the valve and watch the gauge.

pacificobob - 11-26-2020 at 07:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob

one more thought. in my sphere of living here, the use of the word "Indian" is
reacted to like the "N" word would be north of the border. in my experience "indigenous " is a bunch less offensive.

It's all part of "the flow" ...

[Edited on 11-25-2020 by motoged]

I am going to go out on a limb here. I am going g to guess, you have limited Spanish, have never lived in Mexico, have few to none mexicano friends. [ the ones you pay don't count] if you did, you would be clear that referring to someone as "indio" is highly offensive. i have witnessed it several times. the word in not used in polite conversations. your ignorance is on full display. don't belive me? on your next trip to Mexico try using the word...see how it works for you. then again you may consider not using the Nword PC nonsense. cheers. p.s. I have lived and still have property on the flathead reservation in Montana. they prefer the term "indian" for the most part.

[Edited on 11-26-2020 by pacificobob]

pacificobob - 11-26-2020 at 07:51 AM

Quote: Originally posted by advrider

I am Indian (American) myself and prefer to be called Indian over native American or any of the other politically correct names. Same goes for many others that share my heritage. Not sure if it's the same in Mexico but we don't take offense by being call our actual name. Not trying to start a political post, just thought I would share some info.

Mexican culture and social norms are not the same as those NOB. trust me the term is offensive here. ask a mexican!

gnukid - 11-26-2020 at 07:53 AM

It's offensive to people who aren't Indians that are called Indians, like any Meztizo or chaparito, it's not offensive to people who are actual Indians, like Seri, Yaqui, Pericu, Guaycura etc. Anyone who is from the land is Indigenous. But yes there has been a historical negative connotation in Mexico to call someone Indio, not anymore.

[Edited on 11-26-2020 by gnukid]