BajaNomad - Off road 2 way radio

Off road 2 way radio

larryC - 5-15-2021 at 07:01 AM

There is a group of us that are doing more off roading in the BoLA area and we are using marine vhf radios. They are less than ideal and I was wondering if anyone here has experience with a radio that would be better suited for our use? Probably any radio would be better, even a CB. I would like to have a radio that I could program some marine frequencies into so that those people in our group that are resistant to change can still communicate. I could also use some suggestions on antennas that work best.

advrider - 5-15-2021 at 07:14 AM

I use the Rugged radios in our SXS's and have been pretty happy. I know you can program them but we use the pre set channels. I don't know much about HAM radios, so I'm not sure if you need repeaters or not for long distance?

aburruss - 5-15-2021 at 07:20 AM

Why do you feel they are less than ideal?

VHF radios are what all the race teams use to communicate while off-roading. But, it’s all about a your antenna and the wattage of the radio. A small handheld VHF radio might have 5w of power to transmit. The VHF radio in my boat is 25w. A lot of the typical hard-mount VHF radios (kenwood 281,etc) are 55w, and then there are some high end ones that have a built-in amplifier and can use 110w for transmitting.

You can then also use these to communicate with the guys still running the “marine” radio (I’m adding there’s the programmed channels (14, 16, 68, etc). Those marine “channels” all correspond to an actual frequency... so you can just lunch that in and still talk to them. (For example, marine channel 16 is 156.800)

If you’re not racing or needing something super blingy, I’d recommend the kenwood 281. Relatively inexpensive and works well (though you will have to have it modified or modify it yourself to “open up” transmission ability on all frequencies). You can also check Amazon for other options.

The handheld baofeng radios work great too, and are super cheap and convenient, but are only going to be 5w-8w of power when transmissions, so they won’t have great range.

[Edited on 5-15-2021 by aburruss]

Hook - 5-15-2021 at 07:42 AM

Consider a Yaesu FT-2900R. A ham license is required but easy to get. 75 watts. Can be modified to transmit on the marine frequencies.

Or, you could look for used FT-8800 or 8900. These are 2m/440 radios that can be modified very easily to transmit on just about any frequency you want. I have mine programmed to use all the common VHF marine frequencies, as well as the GMRS and CB frequencies. It will transmit/receive AM or FM. 50 watts max, but you can also transmit at 25/10/5 watts. Ham license required.

FM transmission will have line-of-sight limitations. But increased power will improve some line-of-sight situations.

pacificobob - 5-15-2021 at 07:57 AM

how much range do you require?
i think that's the first question to consider.

JZ - 5-15-2021 at 08:15 AM

Here you go op: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=90605

Baofeng for HH. Yaesu if mounting.

[Edited on 5-15-2021 by JZ]

larryC - 5-15-2021 at 08:24 AM

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm guessing in most situations a 5 to 10 mile range would cover most all of our needs when looking to talk to someone that may have made a wrong turn and end up going the wrong way and gotten away from the group. Most of our riding is in the hills and the marine radios, and especially the handheld radios suffer for range in the hills. Most of us are using the Tram 6db whip antennas. Maybe there is a better choice for antennas also. If just 2 or 3 of us had the better radios we could probably keep the group under control in most cases.

StuckSucks - 5-15-2021 at 08:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by aburruss

VHF radios are what all the race teams use to communicate while off-roading. But, it’s all about a your antenna and the wattage of the radio.

That would be my suggestion as well. I have a 50w race radio in the truck and we use it all the time -- super clear transmission. While distance is generally restricted by terrain (canyons, mountains, etc.), we have experienced hilltop-to-hilltop transmit/receive distances as far as 60+ miles.

Now, if you have really deep pockets, there's always Satcomm.

For years, I've purchased race radios at PCI -- they are awesome people, super helpful, excellent service.

larryC - 5-15-2021 at 09:22 AM

In my original post I now see that I wasn't very clear, but most of us are using panel mount 25 watt vhf marine radios. I find that the HH marine radios are pretty much worthless at any distance over a mile unless talking hilltop to hilltop. The 25 watt radios will power through some hilltops but not always. So that's why I was asking if there is a better choice of radios, ones that will work up and over hills. It has been suggested that maybe a CB radio will be better in the hills because the signal will bounce off the atmosphere and might be better in hilly terrain.

PCI gets my vote

John M - 5-15-2021 at 09:47 AM

As StuckSucks wrote, PCI has the answers - you simply ask them the questions. Great customer service.

John M

Mr. Bills - 5-15-2021 at 09:55 AM

CB is line of sight, just as the other platforms already mentioned.

The CB signal might "skip" from your location to Arkansas but it won't bounce off the atmosphere into the adjacent canyon, and because it is AM rather than FM you will be dealing with static. CB is outdated technology and there are better alternatives at the same price point.

GMRS is becoming very popular among offroaders as an alternative to CB. Midland has a line of readily available, reasonably priced mobile GMRS units that may suit your group's needs.

The key with any line of sight radio platform (CB, GMRS, 2m70/cm ham, commercial VHF, "race radios," etc.) will be the antenna and the quality of the antenna installation.

Under the right conditions I have been able to Tx/Rx 25+ miles in Baja using GMRS and ham 2m simplex and a 37" Larsen NMO 2/70 antenna. I tried a shorter 18" Larsen NMO 2/70SH and was still able to Rx long distances but only Tx 15 miles.* CB was 5 miles maximum even with a properly tuned roof mounted 4' Firestik antenna.

______________
* Note: Both antennas are tuned for the 70cm ham frequencies, about 20 MHz lower than the GMRS frequencies. An antenna tuned for the GMRS frequencies would likely have transmitted farther.

Here are two:

https://www.amazon.com/Midland-Antenna-Durable-Connection-Mi...

https://www.pulselarsenantennas.com/product/nmo4503cs-2/

larryC - 5-16-2021 at 07:16 AM

Again thanks for sharing all your knowledge with me, I do appreciate it. So far from what I gather basically is that I should get a good 2 meter radio and a good antenna for it, properly install the radio and antenna, program in the marine channels that I might use to communicate with the other riders and that's about as good as it gets. One more thing if I end up with a radio in the say 50 to 80 watt range will all the channels I transmit on be at 80 watts or will the radio limit the marine bands to 25 watt? This question just shows how little I know about this stuff.
One more question, the local ranchers around here have repeaters in the hills and use the 2 meter radios also for ranch to ranch comms. Will we be able to tap into there repeater system, hopefully without interfering with there comms?

Mr. Bills - 5-16-2021 at 08:06 AM

CB channels are 26.965-27.405 MHz.

The ham 2 meter band is 144-148 MHz.

Race Radios operate in an FCC "grey area" using the VHF commercial band and are typically programmed for frequencies between 151.625-154.515 MHz.

Marine VHF channels are 156.050-157.425 MHz.

The ham 70cm band is 420-450 MHz.

GMRS channels range from 462.5625 MHz to 467.7250 MHz.

Generally speaking, there are no radios that will transmit on CB and also ham, marine and also ham, commercial VHF and also marine, etc. The FCC will not approve such devices. Everyone in the group needs to standardize on the same radio platform whatever it may be and be appropriately licensed for that platform.

Although there are some Chinese made dual band ham radios (2m/70cm) that can be hacked to transmit in both the 70cm and GMRS frequencies, and it is possible to hack some of the Yaesu and other better made mobile units to do so, it is not legal for a licensed ham to operate such a radio.

I prefer ham, GMRS and even CB over marine and race radios. The problem with using marine radios is you can only talk to your group and perhaps some boaters if you are near water. You will also be operating illegally if in the U.S. The problem with race radios is also that you are limited to communicating with other race radio owners.

These articles may be of use to your group in deciding which radio platform to use in the future:

https://myoffroadradio.com/what-are-race-radios/

https://myoffroadradio.com/ham-radio-vs-cb/

https://myoffroadradio.com/importance-of-staying-on-ham-radi...

mjs - 5-16-2021 at 08:12 AM

Don't discount the fact that these are line of sight communications. A 100 watt radio in the bottom of a hole will still have limited range. Mountain top repeaters can help immensely IF both parties can see them.

We found that the radios worked well for us on tours when we're in open terrain but if in mountainous areas and with any distance between parties (i.e. ride group and chase truck) a satellite phone or communicator is better. An InReach is relatively inexpensive but a bit limited if you need to have an extended conversation.

Mr. Bills - 5-16-2021 at 08:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by larryC

One more question, the local ranchers around here have repeaters in the hills and use the 2 meter radios also for ranch to ranch comms. Will we be able to tap into there repeater system, hopefully without interfering with there comms?

For the U.S., you can easily get a list of repeaters, both open and closed, for specific areas.

In Mexico there is not a current reciprocity agreement for ham radio and GMRS operation with the U.S. so it is unlikely that you would be able to use local repeaters operating in the 2m ham or GMRS frequencies even if you have the access code. That doesn't mean it is impossible, just unlikely. Best to count on simplex Tx.

Finally, don't get fixated on the wattage of the radio. A quality antenna and proper installation will do more for you than raw power. 5 watts is usually enough in most group convoys. 25 watts is plenty.

73
KG6LMV

4x4abc - 5-16-2021 at 10:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by larryC

Again thanks for sharing all your knowledge with me, I do appreciate it. So far from what I gather basically is that I should get a good 2 meter radio and a good antenna for it, properly install the radio and antenna, program in the marine channels that I might use to communicate with the other riders and that's about as good as it gets. One more thing if I end up with a radio in the say 50 to 80 watt range will all the channels I transmit on be at 80 watts or will the radio limit the marine bands to 25 watt? This question just shows how little I know about this stuff.
One more question, the local ranchers around here have repeaters in the hills and use the 2 meter radios also for ranch to ranch comms. Will we be able to tap into there repeater system, hopefully without interfering with there comms?

NOPE! Don't even try. They will chase you down.
The repeaters even supply internet to some of the remote ranchos now.

4x4abc - 5-16-2021 at 10:10 AM

race radios work so well (during the race) because the organizers have mountaintop repeaters and airplanes as repeaters (remember Weatherman?).
Once the repeaters are gone, they are as good as any 2m radio.

RFClark - 5-17-2021 at 02:50 AM

If you really need to stay in touch in difficult terrain some form of Iridium Satellite based voice or text based system is the best choice until Starlink is available.

I have a Zoleo text system. It tracks location does and receives texts plus has an SOS feature. It also displays local weather. It costs money but it works.

https://www.zoleosatellitecommunicator.ltd/

Hook - 5-17-2021 at 07:06 AM

I have a feeling he is looking for general, instantaneous communication to/from multiple parties. Some type of radio is best for this situation, rather than any person-to-person device like a cell or sat phone. Yes, you can set up "groups" for texting or even conference calls, but cell service is the limitation.

With most all programmable 2 meter radios, you can program in the power level that you want to use when you go to that frequency IN MEMORY OPERATION. So, if you program in conventional marine frequencies that you use, you can limit it to 25 watts, the legal limit in the US for that band. Even outside of that, the typical Yaesu mic has four programmable function buttons on the mic itself. The default setting of one of them is moving up and down in power level, as you depress the button. No need to go into a menu or depress buttons on the unit itself, which can be a hassle while driving.

Yaesu 2m radios (and probably other mfgrs like ICOM) have a feature where you can enter a mode Yaesu calls ARTS (Auto Range Transponder System). Do a search about this feature. It might be valuable as a backup plan if anyone gets separated from the group. Once the "lost" party realizes he is lost, he/she engages ARTS and someone is sent back to look for them while also engaging ARTS. The radios will determine whether they are in range or out of range by sending a subaudible signal. It will do this automatically every 25 seconds and/or every time the mic on either radio is keyed. Supposedly used by search and rescue teams to make sure they stay in radio range.

I think you should go with a modified 2 meter radio. Certainly in Mexico, if it is even illegal (not sure), it's not an enforced thing. Gringos and Mexican fishermen have been using these radios since the 70s (at least) and I cant recall ever hearing of someone getting hassled about over power transmissions.

PaulW - 5-17-2021 at 07:57 AM

Just setting up my new wrangler for VHF and CB and here is what I have on the bench.
VHF:
Yaesu FT-2980R with Mars mod from Giga Parts.
Software + cable from RTsystems
NMO fender mount bracket from Topsy
Coax with NMO from Browning
Antenna - High gain no ground plane from Tram (kinda tall so that choice may change)
I also have a pair of low power Baofeng 5R multiband handheld units which we often use when out of the vehicle like when spotting to get someone unstuck. Programmed with the same frequencies and the main radio. Note that the oversize battery is needed for reasonable use life.

CB no details due to lack of interest for Baja.
I use a CB in the states with the Jeep club
I consider GMRS and Marine to be inferior just like CB. They just do not have the transmit power we need in Baja.

Hook - 5-17-2021 at 09:12 AM

Yeah, I mentioned the FT-2900R, but I think the latest version of that is the 2980. 75 watts. 2 meter.

Udo - 5-17-2021 at 09:36 AM

We now have switched from Jeeps to RZRs. In Jepps we generally kept using CBs with amplifiers. However, in the RZRs we are all using Rugged Radios transceivers. They are good for about 20+ miles. The antenna placement, ground plane (for the antenna) and type of antenna are all very important.

Quote: Originally posted by larryC

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm guessing in most situations a 5 to 10 mile range would cover most all of our needs when looking to talk to someone that may have made a wrong turn and end up going the wrong way and gotten away from the group. Most of our riding is in the hills and the marine radios, and especially the handheld radios suffer for range in the hills. Most of us are using the Tram 6db whip antennas. Maybe there is a better choice for antennas also. If just 2 or 3 of us had the better radios we could probably keep the group under control in most cases.

PaulW - 5-17-2021 at 11:23 AM

Hook, the 2180 highest power setting is 80watts

UDO. Rugged is an excellent source for radios and they specialize in the latest off sxs rigs. The company is unjustified by the bad mouthing of the racer guys because they do not like the competition for their favorite radio supplier. I really like their version to the Baofeng 5r radio and do not mind the small extra cost. Having said all that I still rely on Google to find my parts and always read reviews on Amazon.

BTW, these radios we are discussing have the ability to transmit on illegal frequencies in the USA. So none of them are recommended for use in the states. Baja only

TMW - 5-17-2021 at 11:45 AM

I have a FT-2900 and a FT-7900 I'm selling for a friend after I check them out and make sure they work OK. I use a Yaesu FT-2600M with a mag mount antenna on the roof of my Tacoma when I'm with friends in the desert or Baja. I normally run it on low power which I think is 10 watts. I also have several Baofeng UV-5R handheld radios. Thank goodness for the key lockout feature.

What Mr. Bills and Udo said above is good info.

JZ - 5-17-2021 at 12:35 PM

Here is what I use:

Truck radio:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0779CN8X9/ref=ox_sc_act_t...

Two handhelds for the bikes:
https://www.amazon.com/BaoFeng-BF-F8HP-Two-Way-136-174MHz-40...

Mag mount antenna:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018EUB8DU/ref=oh_aui_deta...

The Yaesu came with the MARS/CAP Modification done for you. Looks like Amazon caught on and they aren't selling that version anymore.

Jack Swords - 5-17-2021 at 01:09 PM

Obtaining an amateur radio license opens the ability to use much more power, and many more frequencies. We sailed in the Sea of Cortez for over 20 years (and spent many years exploring 4X4 Baja), and always stayed in touch with HF radio. As small as a CB, but running 100 watts on the HF bands, these HF mobile radios allow constant contact world wide. If you have the power available you can run up to 1000 watts. We used Winlink and a Pactor modem to do e-mail several times a day. Hundreds of stations are available worldwide as e-mail gateways. Simply contacted one in the USA and connected to Internet e-mail. Unlike 2 meter and marine VHF, signals on HF are not line-of-sight. Vehicle to vehicle or boat to boat communication was always consistent. Directional antennas are not usually required (I used a loaded vertical whip). You can choose your ham band (80, 40, 20 meters, etc. for best results)

Used a phone patch with a fellow ham to talk to stateside family regularly. Blue sky, nice breeze, boat heeled over and quietly sailing along talking to our daughter on her phone at home. Never felt far away.

Jack N1IY
https://winlink.org/

update

Jack Swords - 5-17-2021 at 01:20 PM

Currently the Mexican Government does not grant reciprocal amateur radio licenses to holders of a license in the USA. Ours was granted years ago and we had a Mexican license prefix. Some are working on it, hopefully reciprocal licensing with Mexico can happen again. Meanwhile....

PaulW - 5-17-2021 at 01:40 PM

Correct Jack,
Ham is not appropriate for Mexico.
Commercial frequency band is what we all use. (Mexico only).
Sure enough we Ham folks still are using in Mexico with no enforcement issues.

larryC - 5-19-2021 at 05:17 PM

Update: I followed most of your advice and ended up with a Kenwood TM 281a w/mars mod, and an antenna for that radio plus the right cable. Once I get it down here I'll let you know how it works out.
We're doing a ride this Saturday over to the west coast from BoLA and back that afternoon, I won't have the radio by then but it should be a fun one. Lots of exploring to do over there.

Mr. Bills - 5-19-2021 at 08:18 PM

The Kenwood TM281a is a rock solid 2 meter radio. I have one in my jeep. You will like it.

KG6LMV

AKgringo - 5-19-2021 at 08:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Bills

The Kenwood TM281a is a rock solid 2 meter radio. I have one in my jeep. You will like it.

KG6LMV

Just now, I decided to check on line to see what one of these units would cost. Two different sites say it is discontinued by the manufacturer!

PaulW - 5-20-2021 at 06:07 AM

Correct.
Try Ebay for discontinued stuff.
Or get the Yaesu FT-2900R which is comparable.

larryC - 5-20-2021 at 07:13 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Udo

We now have switched from Jeeps to RZRs. In Jepps we generally kept using CBs with amplifiers. However, in the RZRs we are all using Rugged Radios transceivers. They are good for about 20+ miles. The antenna placement, ground plane (for the antenna) and type of antenna are all very important.

Quote: Originally posted by larryC

Udo
There's probably 10 of us here with rzr's and we're having a ball doing some exploring in the hills here around BoLA. Early June I'm going down to San Francisquito to visit a friend and from there will do some exploring. I'd like to go out to Santa Gertrudis and see that area and also El Arco, Pozo Aleman and just follow some old roads and trails. Are you still in Asuncion and is that where you do most of your riding?

KasloKid - 5-20-2021 at 10:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo

Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Bills

The Kenwood TM281a is a rock solid 2 meter radio. I have one in my jeep. You will like it.

KG6LMV

Just now, I decided to check on line to see what one of these units would cost. Two different sites say it is discontinued by the manufacturer!

Available in Canada..
https://www.gpscentral.ca/products/kenwood/tm-281a.html

Mr. Bills - 5-20-2021 at 04:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by KasloKid

Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo

Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Bills

The Kenwood TM281a is a rock solid 2 meter radio. I have one in my jeep. You will like it.

KG6LMV

Just now, I decided to check on line to see what one of these units would cost. Two different sites say it is discontinued by the manufacturer!

Available in Canada..
https://www.gpscentral.ca/products/kenwood/tm-281a.html

As of May 20, 2021, the Kenwood TM-281a 2 meter ham radio is available at Ham Radio Outlet for $215.95.

https://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-011362