BajaNomad - The palm tree is going two feet under water

Climate change is being promoted just so countries can justify the expansion of government.

They are using it to wrestle control away from free enterprise.
When was the last time the government innovated on anything?

Hard pass.

[Edited on 8-18-2021 by JZ]

You're kidding, right? Do you just bypass all the evidence?

David K - 8-18-2021 at 11:28 AM

Since climate change is a natural event, it is pretty presumptuous to think humans are more powerful than Nature (or God). One volcanic eruption, one hurricane, one lightning-started forest fire, far outdoes us in altering the planet!

Let's see Al Gore or Leonardo de Caprio stop a volcano from erupting with American's tax dollars.

They need to take their demands to China where (dirty) coal power plants are springing up like wildfire... and pollution is unchecked. We in the West have done some really amazing work on being clean compared to all we produce for the world.

Nothing wrong with getting cleaner emissions but on a Global scale, if it is only us suffering to reduce emissions, it won't matter a hill of beans. The air and weather of the U.S. is not permanently fixed over us. It comes here from China and the rest of the world!

BajaMama - 8-18-2021 at 11:29 AM

Pics of a palm tree with the tide at different heights is not proof of climate change.

Climate change is real, but this wouldn't be considered evidence.

JZ - 8-18-2021 at 11:34 AM

I've been to China about 20 times. The pollution is so bad you can feel it burning your face. Let us know when they sign up for a Green New Deal.

David K - 8-18-2021 at 11:36 AM

Pics of a palm tree with the tide at different heights is not proof of climate change.

Climate change is real, but this wouldn't be considered evidence.

The wet sand is the high tide point... and for the 80+ years of photos, the palm tree is above high tide. The sea is not rising in any rate to cause fear and panic.

This is not just in Baja, either. I am now old enough to easily remember back over 50 years, where I have lived or camped on or near the shore: Del Mar, CA; all around Baja; Darwin, Australia... and when I look at these places on Google Earth... the sea is not higher. Only the sand has moved a bit.

Speaking of Australia:

Sea Level.jpg - 51kB

[Edited on 8-18-2021 by David K]

JZ - 8-18-2021 at 11:37 AM

[/rquote]

You're kidding, right? Do you just bypass all the evidence?

You honestly think government bureaucrats can out smart mother nature?

Of course not. But they are smart enough to convince some ppl to let them have a massive expansion of govt. so they have more power and influence.

mtgoat666 - 8-18-2021 at 11:45 AM

[/rquote]

You're kidding, right? Do you just bypass all the evidence?

They don’t have to outsmart Mother Nature, they just have to create framework to stop and reverse mans pollution.
Bureaucrats did a great job correcting problems with tools such as:
Clean water act
Clean air act
Endangered species act
RCRA
CERCLA

Polluters always complain about new laws to counteract their ill effects. Polluters always seek support of gullible rubes like DK and shorty mcjizzy.

Don’t be a gullible rube.

JZ - 8-18-2021 at 11:55 AM

Their goals are much more ambitious Goat than a simple framework.

They want govt. to have its tentacles all over industry. So they have more power and wealth, and everyone else becomes equal.

It's a charade.

[Edited on 8-18-2021 by JZ]

John Harper - 8-18-2021 at 12:21 PM

"When was the last time the government innovated on anything?"

A lot of our modern conveniences came because of government contracts to develop new technologies. I'm not sure where you draw the line that government does not create innovation.

Integrated Circuits (NASA)
Internet (ARPA, DARPA)
GPS Positioning (US military, USN)
Drone Technology (US Military)
Digital imaging,GIS mapping (NOAA and other agencies)
Stealth Technology (USAF)
Body Armor (US Army)
Advanced Battle Optics (US Army)

It's not just social programs and corporate welfare.

John

BajaMama - 8-18-2021 at 02:31 PM

Pics of a palm tree with the tide at different heights is not proof of climate change.

Climate change is real, but this wouldn't be considered evidence.

It's not even remotely close to the same palm tree 😂😂😂

Depending on the variety, palm trees only live between 70-100 years. The palm in the original photo is already quite old and dead by now.

[Edited on 8-18-2021 by BajaMama]

David K - 8-18-2021 at 03:21 PM

Same spot, same root system, be it different trunks or not. The place has been photographed many times over many years. Not one photo shows it reducing in height or vanishing.

Even if there was no palm... it is at the top of the beach, the water has not reached the top of the beach. There are many photos of that beach from high above on the old road... If the sea raised higher, that flat area behind the beach would be a lagoon. It is not. In any case, the same is true around the world... Even the Maldives are still above the sea. Banks would not loan money for beach houses if there was any truth to the sea level scare.

[Edited on 8-18-2021 by David K]

Alm - 8-18-2021 at 03:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco

This thread will make a Wednesday more interesting. Cant wait to hear the insults from the “experts”. lol!

We already heard it, seems to me.

John Harper - 8-18-2021 at 03:42 PM

Oh, I forgot the Manhattan Project. Government directed and funded innovation. What a blast.

John

4x4abc - 8-18-2021 at 05:18 PM

so we invented all this cool stuff
measuring any surface of the planet by fractions of an inch with satellites
we have done that for a few decades now

then you guys come along and look (half drunk) at palm trees at the beach

aburruss - 8-18-2021 at 06:18 PM

Why do we think that what the climate is TODAY, is the "right" climate? What if plant and animal life, culture, technology, etc. will thrive in a warmer climate/temperatures? What if melting polar ice causes the ocean's salinity level to change, which will then change how humanity handles irrigation/drinking water, or increases certain species of species sustainability in the less salty ocean waters. Or maybe a cooler climate (remember that we have had concerns in the past 30-40 years of cooling along with the current concern around warming) will bring some changes that cause us some growth and benefit in various areas of our life.

Are we so self-centered as a race that we believe that the climate NOW is exactly what it should be, because, well... US!?!? Of course, our current climate COULD be the ideal climate for our planet. Or it could be that over the past few hundred or thousand years, we, as the human race, have adjusted to the "imperfect" climate that we've had... and a modification of that climate (warmer OR cooler) would be an overall benefit to humanity. Would we have to adjust? Sure. Would there be things that are negative? Sure.

The climate IS changing!! There's no disagreement there.
Is the change caused by humans? Most say yes!, some say No!.
What is the climate "supposed" to be? I don't know how to quantify the concept of what the climate "should be", in the scope of the impact to all of humanity.

I propose that us having to adjust our lives should not be the sole factor in our decisions around ANYTHING. Don't be selfish. (this statement can go to BOTH sides of this discussion)

BajaGringo - 8-19-2021 at 09:53 AM

Pics of a palm tree with the tide at different heights is not proof of climate change.

Climate change is real, but this wouldn't be considered evidence.

This photo is simply an illusion and does not help your case amigo as they are simply two images taken from different distances, obvious when you compare difference in apparent block row heights between the two photos.

A much better indicator would be to simply count the number of rows of block visible out of the water below the window and a visual count reveals that there are just over 13 rows of block above the water line in the recent photo and a little over 14 rows of block out of the water from 140 years ago.

That equates to a difference of roughly 6-8 inches, based on what block size they used.

My point is that such comparative photos are of little value in making a case for either side without knowing the complete story like the tide levels when the photos were taken and any and all other relative data.

Global Warming Comparison.jpg - 82kB

[Edited on 8-19-2021 by BajaGringo]

David K - 8-19-2021 at 10:22 AM

Sure, it was a meme on Facebook but addressed the truth about sea level. High tide is often several feet more than low tide.

In your area: Are the salt flats of San Quintín, that were worked for salt in the 1700s, underwater now, or still dry between highest tides? Surely, if the sea level was rising at an alarming rate, 250 years should have been enough to cover them all the time?

Believe what you want... but I know what I can see. I am not denying the sea level has changed over the years... Nothing is static. However, to scare children and fools into this "the world has only 12 years left" is just sad.

Life should be enjoyed, not feared.

RFClark - 8-19-2021 at 11:20 AM

The facts in Asia are somewhat different!

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/19/coal-prices-the-worlds-least...

surabi - 8-19-2021 at 11:31 AM

You're kidding, right? Do you just bypass all the evidence?

Yep, that's many peoples' MO on everything they disagree with. Ignore or deny the overwhelming evidence, instead find some BS they read online to support their opinion.

This is how much sea level has risen in 20K years

RFClark - 8-19-2021 at 11:46 AM

Sea level has risen 350’ since the end of the last ice age 20,000 years ago. Almost the hight of this rocket!

The climate has changed continually as well. 20,000 years ago the Sahara Desert was covered with trees and lakes!

You really can't blame humans for any of the first 19,700 years of these changes!

It’s unclear that short of reducing the world’s population by half any other measures will do more than slow the rate of change!

Putting people who don’t follow their own rules in charge won’t solve it either!

A18A0F78-4BD7-4C48-BBCF-FFAFD0E30FA0.jpeg - 234kB

[Edited on 8-19-2021 by RFClark]

mtgoat666 - 8-19-2021 at 03:28 PM

It had never rained here before — until this week

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/19/weather/greenland-summit-rain...

Dk, don’t bother to read it, we know your mind is closed off, lost forever — you will surely not believe anything if not measured in palm trees…

mtgoat666 - 8-19-2021 at 03:32 PM

A combined cycle plant could have total capital costs of $0.07 per kilowatt-hour to $0.08 cents per kilowatt-hour, if natural gas prices remain at $5 per MMBTU

Natural gas is a generating cost, not a capital cost.

John Harper - 8-19-2021 at 04:29 PM

I would not be surprised that DK's palm tree is still relatively dry because any expansion/inflow to the Sea of Cortez likely just fills in areas left dry by the massive depletion of the Colorado River inflow, which has been tapped out. So, it may take much more time to show any significant rise compared to many Pacific islands that seem to show documented sea level rise. We do know that the entrance to the delta used to be extremely hazardous for ships entering the Colorado River from the SOC.

Just a thought.

John

Tioloco - 8-19-2021 at 04:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper

I would not be surprised that DK's palm tree is still relatively dry because any expansion/inflow to the Sea of Cortez likely just fills in areas left dry by the massive depletion of the Colorado River inflow, which has been tapped out. So, it may take much more time to show any significant rise compared to many Pacific islands that seem to show documented sea level rise. We do know that the entrance to the delta used to be extremely hazardous for ships entering the Colorado River from the SOC.

Just a thought.

John

That is a ridiculous justification to continue ignoring what you actually see and continue hypothesizing about things you dont know about.
The fact will always remain that the earth will continue evolving… When the Sun eventually burns out- which it certainly will- then humankind will have a real dilemma on their hands. Maybe science will figure out a way to compensate for that. Maybe not.

Either way, that inevitability will make the current debate about mans role in climate change seem pretty moot.

Go have some tacos, a cold beer and enjoy the time you actually have here.

BajaGringo - 8-20-2021 at 11:03 AM

In your area: Are the salt flats of San Quintín, that were worked for salt in the 1700s, underwater now, or still dry between highest tides? Surely, if the sea level was rising at an alarming rate, 250 years should have been enough to cover them all the time?

If you had ever spent time living along the edge of the sea David you would learn that beaches change over time with surges and currents pulling and leaving sand in cycles.

We witness that cycle play out right out in front of us on the beach below us here at La Chorera where a large piece of volcanic rock sticks out close to the high tide line, sometimes as much as 6 or 7 feet in the air during the summer only to completely disappear for months at other times of the year, covered in sand and usually in the late winter/early spring months of each year.

So happens too with those salt flats just a mile or so north of us; the relative level of sand rises and declines each year with the currents and surges. It might appear to someone not watching closely that nothing changes.

But it does. The coastline is always adjusting with the changes.

So too could happen with your palm tree, the beach there could simply be rising with the currents and even mild coastal surges, and yes - increase in sea level - appearing to remain at the same relative distance from the water when it is quite likely that a few to several inches of the trunk have simply been covered up by the increasing levels of sand.

Is it consistent everywhere? No - based on the underwater topography out in front as well as the tides and current, the change may appear severe in some areas while other beaches see little relative difference.

Hard to say for sure either way but exactly why such photographic comparisons without much other data are simply anecdotal and really prove nothing.

However that doesn't mean I am crying the end is near due to global warming.

I tend to be more moderate and while I agree the earth is quite resilient as we witnessed during the peak months of pandemic shutdown last year where many examples were witnessed of the planet rebounding during the months we stayed at home, we must remain vigilant and do everything possible to minimize the damage an ever increasing population is causing to this planet.

There is little doubt in the scientific community these days that we are living in an era of climate change and global warming. There is overwhelming evidence based on slowly rising average air temperatures and sea levels, over 8 inches since 1880 and 3 inches in just the last 25 years. Coastal communities near sea level around the planet are now battling with perennial flooding and the loss of ice mass at the polar extremes is abundantly documented.

The question that remains unanswered in my mind is what percentage of all that change is due to our human activity on this planet vs a natural climatic cycle?

Not sure that we will ever resolve that question to the satisfaction of everyone but there is indisputable evidence today that man made pollution has a very negative impact on this planet and all of it's life forms.

So if we can agree on that, doesn't it make sense to do everything we can to minimize our human impact on this planet for our sake and for the generations still to come?

Assuming you don't support the idea of culling the general population and/or sterilizing women after giving birth to one child then increasing levels of protective measures must be implemented to preserve a planet that is home to an ever-growing population.

At least until we have the technology to ship half of them to mars.

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I don't suspect that climate change will be the end of us anytime soon but you know what will? It's this hateful division in this world today and largely over race, religion and politics, with politics today probably the fastest growing threat.

Ignorant fools have been fighting wars over religion and race since the beginning of time and that's unlikely to change.

Over the last 20 years I have watched this increasing hostility and divisiveness in US politics get to the point where compromise and civil discourse has slowly eroded away leaving us today with a scenario where a political "win" is more important than whether or not it really makes good sense, is fair and good long term policy based on morally sound judgement.

Everything today in politics is like a high school football game of fierce cross-town rivals with their fans loudly crying blind support for their team winning - even by cheating if necessary - while simultaneously screaming hate, disdain and even death for the opposing side, treating each and every play in the game as if it were a matter or life and death with extreme factions using the political momentum to push their racist and idiotic agendas of hate.

When I heard people mention the possibility of another American Civil War coming 20 years ago, I laughed at the idea.

I am not laughing anymore and all one needs to do is research and study the political/social climate in the US prior to 1860 to understand how much trouble we are in today.

That is what I MOST fear today. Not global warming...

monoloco - 8-20-2021 at 11:14 AM

Then there's this one. Rapid expansion in emerging markets power demands force expansion of not always the best power sources. Theres no excuse for Canada tho. We pay a lot of taxes supposedly directed for climate change
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-change-low-carbon-...

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-change-low-carbon-...

[Edited on 8-19-2021 by JDCanuck]

Maybe your taxes up there would be lower if you weren't subsidizing the oil sand bitumen industry where the costs of production are higher than the value of the commodity.

monoloco - 8-20-2021 at 11:24 AM

Mexico may have a really difficult time adding in the carbon capture as it would be an additional expense and CFE which is the primary owner is struggling financially. What happened to all the huge solar utility plans that were in place previously for La Paz and other areas?

There is currently a fully operational solar installation in Ciudad Insurgente with a large grid scale battery sitting idle due to the government playing games with the permitting process.

RFClark - 8-20-2021 at 12:17 PM

Our US ride is a Hyundai Ioniq plug hybrid! 27 miles electric only and 60 mpg or more on gas. Not terribly expensive either.

Our ride in Mexico does better than 40 mpg! The house in Mexico is off the grid totally!

As to the fluctuating sea level! A 350’ rise in the last 20K years! That said the technology to accurately measure the rise and fall of the shore has only existed since the GPS constellation was launched.

However anyone driving south from Palm Springs past the Salton Sea can see the watermarks on the rocks showing 20’-30’ up on the rocks. Ditto for south of Mexicali on HWY5. You see the same 20’-30’! Did the sea rise or the land subside or both? The Naples area of Italy rises and falls 10s of feet because of the volcano next to it and has since at least Roman times!

660CC Daihatsu hijet mini 4x4!

RFClark - 8-20-2021 at 12:32 PM

8EFE7A63-B628-4E5A-8051-E50BA0FC45B5.jpeg - 245kB

4x4abc - 8-20-2021 at 12:33 PM

enjoy the ride guys!

where to sit.jpeg - 66kB

RFClark - 8-20-2021 at 01:02 PM

Imported and RH drive!

4x4abc

Reduce the earth’s population by 1/2 and learn to swim! All else is moving around the deckchairs! Of course we could reduce the amount of sunlight striking the earth, but that wouldn’t put the “proper people” in charge would it?

Hook - 8-20-2021 at 01:11 PM

I am dismayed by the message being fed to my young grandchildren that the world is coming to an end by climate alarmists. Over the past 30 years I have seen massive shifts to reduce both energy usage by individuals and at the same time huge improvements by power utilities as they converted from primarily coal and oil to high efficiency natural gas, wind and solar power. Investors will no longer invest in coal or nuclear power as wind and solar are now far cheaper and offer a greater return. It takes time, but we are making fantastic headway.

I agree completely with this. But we can do more.......

At least in the US, the carbon emissions from personal vehicles still rivals the emissions of the energy generating sector. They are both in the 25-30% range. At least it was around 25-30 % before covid. The personal vehicle number may have gone down a bit, since then.

Those are the two largest sources, at least in the U.S. I dont know about China and I always have reservations about statistics from them, anyway.

We still need to find a way to get people out of these ridiculous single-person errands to the store or single-person commutes. If we could cut dramatically into that, there'd be no question about "allowing" people to go on driving vacations or flying vacations.

Did anyone hear about the Green Party proposal in Norway? They want to mandate to each person a specific allotment of airline flying time, based on how much carbon a jet emits. Basically, you would get a specific number of airline miles over a specific time interval. Once you use yours up, you are literally grounded. Or, you have to buy more allotment from others.

A whole new category on Craigslist! For Sale: personal airline quotas. :wow:

I could see some form of this becoming part of the "progressives" Green New Deal.

[Edited on 8-20-2021 by Hook]

RFClark - 8-20-2021 at 01:20 PM

I’ll consider it as soon as those pushing it actually do it! You know that’s not going to happen!

John Harper - 8-20-2021 at 01:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Hook

Did anyone hear about the Green Party proposal in Norway? They want to mandate to each person a specific allotment of airline flying time, based on how much carbon a jet emits. Basically, you would get a specific number of airline miles over a specific time interval. Once you use yours up, you are literally grounded. Or, you have to buy more allotment from others.

A whole new category on Craigslist! For Sale: personal airline quotas. :wow:

I could see some form of this becoming part of the "progressives" Green New Deal.

It's actually an example of a "free market" solution. Nothing "progressive" about supply and demand, just simple economics.

The proposed "carbon tax" works the same way, with credits exchanged in a market environment.

John

JZ - 8-20-2021 at 02:12 PM

It looks to me like the utilities contributions are being dealt with quite quickly and effectively. Now how do we get people to drive to the grocery store in smaller more fuel efficient vehicles instead of the jacked up 400 hp 4by4's? Tiny parking stalls didn't help as they just use up 4 of em.

Lol.

I do take up two with my truck. Zfg.

John Harper - 8-21-2021 at 02:45 PM

Looks to me like there's plenty of room for the SOC to expand before any sea level rise at DK's palm tree becomes noticeable. Check out how far the river has receded. Lots of room for expansion.

https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7322918,-114.8912632,71753m/...

Seems like massive depletion of river inflow at one end of the SOC has just been able to mask the effects of warming in this localized sea, but this is possibly just an unintended consequence of damming and exploiting the Colorado. None of this contradicts existing science.

This might explain DK's tree to some extent. Occam's Razor and all that kind of logic, you know.

If anyone is left with an open mind, please chime in. Otherwise, you know what to do with yourself.

John

[Edited on 8-21-2021 by John Harper]

mtgoat666 - 8-21-2021 at 03:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper

Looks to me like there's plenty of room for the SOC to expand before any sea level rise at DK's palm tree becomes noticeable. Check out how far the river has receded. Lots of room for expansion.

https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7322918,-114.8912632,71753m/...

Seems like massive depletion of river inflow at one end of the SOC has just been able to mask the effects of warming in this localized sea, but this is possibly just an unintended consequence of damming and exploiting the Colorado. None of this contradicts existing science.

This might explain DK's tree to some extent. Occam's Razor and all that kind of logic, you know.

If anyone is left with an open mind, please chime in. Otherwise, you know what to do with yourself.

John

[Edited on 8-21-2021 by John Harper]

So many reasons that dk is confused by the photos of his precious palm trees:
(1) Each storm flow out of the arroyo deposits new sediment in back-beach area (ground elevation rises)
(2) that area of baja has quaternary tectonic uplift recorded in literature, seems likely uplift is still occurring (perhaps land rises same rate as sea level changes, perhaps dk can survey temporal changes of land elevations to mm accuracy using his palm tree method)
(3) storm waves may have deposited sediment on beach (ground elevation rises)
(4) the palm trees die and get replaced every decade or two, his photos don’t even distinguish individual palm trees and their ages, very sloppy photo album science)

For many reasons, scientists use carefully calibrated tide gauges to record sea level changes, and they don’t use dk’s vacation photo album of palm trees and drunken people on beach holiday (well, maybe some creation scientists at Bob Jones university use palm trees, eh?)

[Edited on 8-21-2021 by mtgoat666]

David K - 8-21-2021 at 04:18 PM

LOL

4x4abc - 8-21-2021 at 05:05 PM

cool! - photo album science

RFClark - 8-21-2021 at 10:43 PM

Goat,

If the land goes up and/or down then the tide gauges and the palm trees go with it! Just like Naples!

It’s only been since GPS that there was a simple and very accurate way to measure millimeter elevation changes!

surfhat - 8-22-2021 at 09:02 AM

Why is it so hard to grasp the absolute FACT that certain areas of the globe experience climate change earlier and more than others? They are the forbearers of what is coming.

The Bay of Conception cannot show the irreversible changes that the Arctic and islands in the Pacific and elsewhere irrefutably are experiencing severe climactic changes.

We are leaving generations to come a dismal future through the proliferation of incompetence and downright ignorance.

The undeniable truth is out there and has been for decades.

peeing into the wind for all the good it will do with those who choose to ignore the clear signs of the coming viability of human life on this lonely planet.

We have had a Eden given to us. Mother Earth deserves better treatment.

Peace and love. Thank you Ringo. haha

Fish tacos forever as long as we have them. Just don't look for the plastic in every sea creature we would like to consume. It is already there.

All life springs from the oceans and we are killing them as surely as we are killing the potential of 'human' life on the planet. Perhaps that is what it will take and it will be too late by then, if it isn't already. Our supposed superiority is only a supposition.

Now for a change of pace. Happy Sunday Baja lovers.

BajaTed - 8-22-2021 at 09:26 AM

So far; every aspect of the infamous palm has been shared except the human part associated with it;

Waking up by the tree to a glorious sunrise is awesome. Go catch some Pargo off the point. Make ceviche. Hook up later with Daniel the diver and tell him you will have Pacifico Ballena's . He then brings Chocolate Clams for a classic Baja story session as only he can tell.

4x4abc - 8-22-2021 at 09:27 AM

sea level rise is 133/1000" per year
so, David's 1936 palm tree picture would have experienced an 11" sea level rise
not much
barely visible
but barely visible does not mean, it is not there

some don't see/understand subtle changes
some only understand when it is too late
from climate change over Trump to Covid

https://sealevel.nasa.gov/

Screen Shot 2021-08-22 at 10.15.54 AM.png - 101kB

Screen Shot 2021-08-22 at 10.15.54 AM.png - 101kB

BajaMama - 8-22-2021 at 09:45 AM

The bottom line is that humans, since industrialization and the burning of fossil fuels, have impacted the climate on the planet. Stats and facts don't lie. Deniers cry that we always go between ice ages and swampy periods. This is true, BUT NOT IN JUST 100 YEARS. These naturally occurring changes take hundreds of millennia, not mere decades. All you deniers can throw out memes and justifications for the situation we are in, but NOTHING will change the FACT that the seas are rising, glaciers are melting, and the planet is heating up at a rate that is unnaturally caused by human actions and behavior. And as it continues we will see more severe weather, droughts and other events brought on by man-made global warming.

caj13 - 8-22-2021 at 09:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

sea level rise is 133/1000" per year
so, David's 1936 palm tree picture would have experienced an 11" sea level rise
not much
barely visible
but barely visible does not mean, it is not there

some don't see/understand subtle changes
some only understand when it is too late
from climate change over Trump to Covid

https://sealevel.nasa.gov/

Thanks Harold, I appreciate that, but its not the current rise per say that raises the alarms. Its what we know is coming. It's not a snapshot in time - its the trends and rates that are so concerning to actual scientists and those who actually embrace science for its process and "power".

4x4abc - 8-22-2021 at 10:04 AM

Quote: Originally posted by caj13

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

we know what's coming and are concerned since 1896 (Svante Arrhenius) - but the medieval mob prefers snake oil salesmen. Humans always choose colorful stories (no facts needed) over naked numbers and concepts that go beyond their grasp.

[Edited on 8-22-2021 by 4x4abc]

BajaRun - 8-22-2021 at 10:05 AM

I try to do my part in my little slice of the world. I'm certainly not a liberal. I would like to do what I can to preserve our planet for future generations... But what little part I can do is in reality diminished by 1.4 billion in China and 1.4 billion in India.

If it makes you feel good then do your part and preach your sermon. But it ain't gonna matter.

4x4abc - 8-22-2021 at 10:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaRun

I try to do my part in my little slice of the world. I'm certainly not a liberal. I would like to do what I can to preserve our planet for future generations... But what little part I can do is in reality diminished by 1.4 billion in China and 1.4 billion in India.

If it makes you feel good then do your part and preach your sermon. But it ain't gonna matter.

your part is to elect politicians in your country that could make a positive difference. Yes, there are some. Don't worry about China and India. They are getting their chit together faster than you think. Because they are not hampered by public opinion and freedom ideas. Why do I think it will be fast (in political terms)? Dead and sick people don't make money for the rich and for the government. So, expect to see changes soon. On the personal level? Recycle if it makes you feel good. Won't make a difference - but feeling good is important. You can see the effect of not feeling good every day on this forum.

RFClark - 8-22-2021 at 10:45 AM

So if “it’s coming” why do so many of those leading us live in huge oceanfront estates located at the current sea level? In fact some have several such estates along with private jets and Big SUVs!

More people might follow if they were led by example and not from the French Laundry!

Personally, I’m green because it actually saves not just the earth but money!

4x4abc - 8-22-2021 at 10:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark

So if “it’s coming” why do so many of those leading us live in huge oceanfront estates located at the current sea level? In fact some have several such estates along with private jets and Big SUVs!

More people might follow if they were led by example and not from the French Laundry!

Personally, I’m green because it actually saves not just the earth but money!

because it is cool to live close to the water. And it is cool to be rich. It is cool to own a very expensive property. And rich allows them to relocate anywhere anytime they want. But if you wait too long selling your house close to the water, you'll lose everything the American dream promised you.

RFClark - 8-22-2021 at 11:02 AM

Harold,

I’m an Engineering type! My locations are all above the mean sea level by more than 10 M!

I’ve known since I was a child that you could walk to Catalina at the end of the last Ice Age!

4x4abc - 8-22-2021 at 12:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark

Harold,

I’m an Engineering type! My locations are all above the mean sea level by more than 10 M!

I’ve known since I was a child that you could walk to Catalina at the end of the last Ice Age!

good thinking
always make sure your home, your family is safe
right after that is the thought - what will the future bring?
in the old days, religion "helped" you
today you are on your own choosing the source of information for your evaluation
not easy
most still fall for gurus who formulate thoughts for them (talk radio)
feels good
usually its wrong

[Edited on 8-23-2021 by 4x4abc]

RFClark - 8-22-2021 at 12:52 PM

Harold,

For Engineers, Murphy has always been God or Nature’s appointed enforcer! You’d do well to listen to him!

Hook - 8-23-2021 at 09:56 AM

In a country as "free" as ours, born of capitalism, people do almost nothing unless there is a monetary incentive to do so. Yes, some people are altruistic to a point. But altruism drops when altruism becomes inconvenient.

Heck, even altruism has a monetary component. Before the Trump tax cut, many got a tax break to give to charity. Most of the middle class has lost that tax break. Charitable receipts are way down.

Anyway, there will have to be a monetary incentive to get into smaller, more efficient vehicles. Or to take public transportation. People won't "just do it". Even for a reason as large as "saving the planet". People just don't think that far ahead in their lives.

Incentives can occur in a couple ways. One is seeing what we are seeing now. Gas and diesel approaching and passing 4.00/gallon. It will have to get much higher than that, probably.

The other might be some combination of governmental incentives.

Personally, I have really enjoyed turning a lot of my errands into e-bike opportunities. It's not for everyone. Solutions rarely fit everyone's abilities. My locale is pretty darn bike friendly.

But I think the single biggest obstacle to turning to bikes is that our cities are just not that bike friendly. I think it's ABOVE a lack of physical ability to operate a bike, as an obstacle.

And people THINK they just dont have the time to use the bike, for these purposes. Well, they would if they would carve out some of the hours they spend on their devices. :lol:

The physical obstacles in the cities has to change. No one likes sharing the road with giant hunks of metal, spewing noxious exhaust. We need more protected (with physical barriers) bike paths.

And we need incentives to purchase these non-polluting options.

And we need cheaper electric options in cars. Electric cars are not cheap.

Oh sure, these options are not going to replace our "toy haulers" on vacations. They wont have to, if we replace that carbon emission with reductions in city driving. All that flocking idling in traffic, with one person at the wheel......my god!

In the end, maybe it's all, too little, too late........

Maybe the evolution of the human race is to produce something that eventually kills off several billion and makes the planet more habitable again.

Pollution is evolutionarily inevitable, maybe, at these numbers of people.

Maybe it wasn't The Bomb, after all.

One thing's for sure, to me. Why bother trying to inhabit Mars, or anywhere else, to save the human race from itself? Why should there be a refuge from this level of pollution?

It'll only be inhabited by elitist rich people, anyway, probably looking for a way to monetize something or other "up there".

If we can't fix it here, let it end here. Don't export our failure to some other unsuspecting environment, and continue the cycle. Fix it, or die trying.

There......a healthy dose of pragmatic fatalism, as summer days shorten on a Monday morning.

RFClark - 8-23-2021 at 11:25 AM

We have had e cars since 2013.

Generally they have been very useful for runs up to 90 miles each way.

Currently we have a 2019 Hyundai Ioniq plug hybrid. It goes 27 miles on electricity and gets over 60 mpg on cheap gas. It’s not a small car as it weighs 3300lbs. The range is 600 miles. The car cost $18K!

We just drove it to Rapid City SD and back. The lane following and adaptive cruse control worked great. We averaged 55 - 60 mpg running 70-80 mph! It would have done better at 65 and w/o AC on.

There are no politics here, just engineering! The fuel costs are about 7 cents/mile. Deprecation is about 15 cents/mile and maintenance reserve is about 5 cents/mile assuming $0 value at 200K miles! That's almost 1/2 of what our 2016 Nissan Rogue cost to run!

You do the math! The per mile deduction is 45 cents/mile!

JZ - 8-23-2021 at 12:01 PM

I'll stick to my 3/4 ton diesel. Thank you very much!

RFClark - 8-23-2021 at 12:05 PM

We’ve got a 3/4T Dodge 4X4 V10 to haul stuff too! It gets 14MPG! On a good day!

JZ - 8-23-2021 at 12:15 PM

Plus hell would have to freeze over before I'm riding an electric dirt bike and giving up the Brraappp and the beautiful smell of the exhaust.

TMW - 8-23-2021 at 12:37 PM

Plus hell would have to freeze over before I'm riding an electric dirt bike and giving up the Brraappp and the beautiful smell of the exhaust.

Attach a boom box on the back with a Brraappp CD, problem solved. Now that was easy, just kidding. Your kids would love it.

4x4abc - 8-23-2021 at 01:40 PM

Plus hell would have to freeze over before I'm riding an electric dirt bike and giving up the Brraappp and the beautiful smell of the exhaust.

that's what people said about horses and cars in 1890
wanna take a hint from history?

RFClark - 8-23-2021 at 01:49 PM

Since change is usually unavoidable unless you take to hiding under the bed, best to embrace it!

SFandH - 8-23-2021 at 03:46 PM

Environmental nutcases would like us to go back to burning wood like they do at the protest camps (not to mention the garbage they generally leave behind for the "establishment" to clean up) Hard to get your point across when you act like that.

Are you from Alberta?

caj13 - 8-23-2021 at 05:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH

Are you from Alberta?

Is that his excuse?

caj13 - 8-23-2021 at 05:23 PM

Are you from Alberta?[/rquote]

Nope...BC, and we see them all out here, I am especially upset with environmentalists that abandon their rusty hulk ships for us to clean up (Ucluelet) after they tire of them, and the tree spikers that cause people to slice half their face off, not to mention the ones that purposely derail oil transport trains and create spills and fires. (Whatcom County). Here is the Canadian environmentalists side of the story'. Locals have a different perspective.
https://www.seashepherd.org.uk/news-and-commentary/commentar...

[Edited on 8-24-2021 by JDCanuck]

So should we start a list - on one side list all the damage "environmental groups" do to the environment and compare that to Oil companies damages on the other side? would that make you happy?

[Edited on 8-24-2021 by caj13]

motoged - 8-23-2021 at 10:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH

Are you from Alberta?

motoged - 8-23-2021 at 11:04 PM

How do you feel about Baja locals (generally Mexican) cooking and heating with wood? And how about how they manage their refuse (pit burns) ?

"Hard to get your point across when you act like that."

Do you support ongoing logging of protected old growth timber?
If not, what strategies are you applying to stop it?

westafricancaptain - 8-24-2021 at 08:41 AM

God bless BajaGringo

Hook - 8-24-2021 at 08:56 AM

I cant believe anyone thought you were from Alberta, JD. You sound BC all the way, to me.

Maybe it's the Vancouver Island shading that fooled them. Just not the over-the-top liberalism of a person from Vancouver or Ontario.

AKgringo - 8-24-2021 at 09:13 AM

I heat with a wood stove all winter in the northern California foot hills. What goes up the chimney is a small contribution compared to my burn piles of dead trees, under brush and tree thinning to lessen the wildfire danger.

Whether the forest is protected, or just over grown rural areas, we are currently burning it by the hundreds of thousands of acres, with a carbon footprint that can be seen from space!

Composting is great, but it is not practical to try to compost acres of dead trees. Even if you could, if the methane generated is not captured, it is a far worse pollutant than the CO2 and soot generated by the fires.

vgabndo - 8-26-2021 at 04:22 AM

Same spot, same root system, be it different trunks or not. The place has been photographed many times over many years. Not one photo shows it reducing in height or vanishing.

Even if there was no palm... it is at the top of the beach, the water has not reached the top of the beach. There are many photos of that beach from high above on the old road... If the sea raised higher, that flat area behind the beach would be a lagoon. It is not. In any case, the same is true around the world... Even the Maldives are still above the sea. Banks would not loan money for beach houses if there was any truth to the sea level scare.

[Edited on 8-18-2021 by David K]

People in the Solomon
Islands disagree with your isolated palm tree theory.

solomon-islands-rising-sea-level-university-of-queensland.jpg - 105kB

John Harper - 8-26-2021 at 05:55 AM

Why would anyone build in New Orleans or the Netherlands?

Or even along the shores of Malibu and the bluffs here in North County San Diego?

Because they can?

John

PaulW - 8-27-2021 at 09:09 AM

willardguy - 8-27-2021 at 09:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by PaulW

looks suitable for hauling palm trees!

white whale - 9-2-2021 at 05:19 PM

A six pager climate discussion - alright. Knew I'd seen the Solomon pic before...... part of a 60 mins austrailia pgm. It is quite an interesting take on the two sides here.

SFandH - 9-2-2021 at 05:41 PM

No doubt the planet is getting warmer, no doubt it's caused by the burning of fossil fuels, no doubt it's causing major problems.

Dry is drier, wet is wetter, hot is hotter, storms are stronger, droughts are longer, floods are deeper, wildfires are wilder, coastlines are moving. Plus there is migration out of the tropics, which are expanding, into more temperate latitudes.

It's happening now.

[Edited on 9-3-2021 by SFandH]

4x4abc - 9-3-2021 at 07:18 AM

how the Australians see it:

https://www.facebook.com/thejuicemedia/videos/35018150346636...

SFandH - 9-3-2021 at 08:15 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

how the Australians see it:

https://www.facebook.com/thejuicemedia/videos/35018150346636...

Good satire, an effective way to get a point across. It might work to change the minds of some of the knuckleheads out there.

Bruce R Leech - 9-3-2021 at 10:38 AM

how many of us can remember the hole in the ozone layer fraud that caused the ban o Freon R12 all over the world. a lot of people got rich over that at the expense of many more

[Edited on 9-3-2021 by Bruce R Leech]

SFandH - 9-3-2021 at 10:43 AM

Hanford is not a fair comparison. Those reactors were hastily built in the late 1940s and 1950s to generate plutonium for weapons. Plus there was a terribly messy reprocessing plant to extract the plutonium from the irradiated uranium fuel rods. The radioactive waste was carelessly buried in tanks that have been leaking for decades. They are not power reactors. Whole different story.

SFandH - 9-3-2021 at 07:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH

Hanford is not a fair comparison. Those reactors were hastily built in the late 1940s and 1950s to generate plutonium for weapons. Plus there was a terribly messy reprocessing plant to extract the plutonium from the irradiated uranium fuel rods. The radioactive waste was carelessly buried in tanks that have been leaking for decades. They are not power reactors. Whole different story.

The last time i checked Hanford was storing 40 percent of all the nuclear waste ever produced in the US (shipped as well from other areas)and the state and federal governments were still arguing over who was responsible to remediate the leaking storage as the bill grew ever larger. The second temporary containments installed are also now suspected of leaking. This one is refusing to go away.

All of the nuclear waste at Hanford was produced at Hanford during the production of Pu-239 for nuclear weapons. And it could be a very large percentage of all the waste there is. That is one nasty place that is heavily contaminated.

The federal government is responsible, there's no argument about that.

Production of Pu-239 (it does not exist in nature) has stopped because we have enough of the crap to destroy the world 100 times over.

Power reactor waste (spent fuel) in the US is stored on-site at the power reactors. It is not moved around.

I'm confident this is true. If you have info to the contrary, post the link. I'll take a look.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site

[Edited on 9-4-2021 by SFandH]

Don Pisto - 9-3-2021 at 07:50 PM

and the palm tree?

SFandH - 9-3-2021 at 08:07 PM