BajaNomad - The palm tree is going two feet under water

There are things I really like about cutting and trimming with battery powered saws, but if you want to do a day's work, they are not yet an acceptable substitute for gas powered saws.

Exactly. Can you imagine logging, or road clearing after a major storm, with an electric saw?

The power-to-weight ratio of a fossil fuel chansaw is pretty amazing, and they run through a heck of a lot less gasoline than the driving a car down to the corner grocery store for soda pop.

There are many variables that go into this, but the following example illustrates the battery weight problem.

A Tesla Model S, 85 Kwh battery pack weighs 1200 pounds. The range is generously 300 miles.

A roughly equivalent gas-powered car would require 12 gallons of gas at 25 mpg. 12 gallons of gas weighs 75 pounds.

So, in this case, 1200 pounds of batteries will do what 75 pounds of gas do.

Or, an electric chain saw with a 100-pound battery pack will do what a gas chain saw with a one-gallon tank (6.3 pounds) does.

[Edited on 10-11-2021 by SFandH]

mtgoat666 - 10-11-2021 at 02:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho

There are things I really like about cutting and trimming with battery powered saws, but if you want to do a day's work, they are not yet an acceptable substitute for gas powered saws.

electric motors weigh much less than equivalent IC engine/transmission. in case of tesla, the 1200 lb battery pack is OK as the car does not have the heavy IC engine and transmission and accessories that are in your fossil fuel vehicle.

i use a small e-chain saw, as well as many other e-tools -- and i have multiple batteries to get me thru a day of yard work.
i do have a gas-powered chain saw, but only rarely need the gasoline beast for large wood. most yard work is smaller diameter branches that e-chain saw handles well.

SFandH - 10-11-2021 at 03:06 PM

Still, it takes 100 pounds of batteries to deliver what 6.3 pounds of gasoline does. That's my point. Tough to beat the energy density of gasoline; however, plutonium does a good job.

luna negra - 10-11-2021 at 03:22 PM

For what it's worth, I was a skeptic of an e-saw until I tried the Milwaukee 18V model. Will cut for quite a long time on one battery and don't have to worry about the carbs gumming up and gas lines rotting from gas with ethanol. Highly recommend.

Don Pisto - 10-11-2021 at 03:29 PM

"why don't we just get in the running car!" :lol:

SFandH - 10-11-2021 at 03:43 PM

The 12" battery-powered chain saws for sale by Amazon have excellent reviews.

mtgoat666 - 10-11-2021 at 04:07 PM

Still, it takes 100 pounds of batteries to deliver what 6.3 pounds of gasoline does. That's my point. Tough to beat the energy density of gasoline; however, plutonium does a good job.

Apples and oranges. You are comparing weight of liquid fuel to weight of energy storage device.

David K - 10-11-2021 at 04:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Don Pisto

"why don't we just get in the running car!" :lol:

"are you nuts?" :lol:

monoloco - 10-11-2021 at 04:54 PM

Still, it takes 100 pounds of batteries to deliver what 6.3 pounds of gasoline does. That's my point. Tough to beat the energy density of gasoline; however, plutonium does a good job.

Apples and oranges. You are comparing weight of liquid fuel to weight of energy storage device.

Considering that the Tesla battery can last for 300-600,000 miles, it should be 1200 lbs. of Tesla batteries=30-40,000 lbs. of fuel.

A couple of things I didn't expect with my e-saw

AKgringo - 10-11-2021 at 05:43 PM

The electric motor develops torque at lower rpms than gas, so it is able to cut with slower chain speed. Cutting hard dry wood, or limbs at high rpm can generate enough heat to shorten the chain and bar life.

With my e-saw, it seems to me that I am going much longer between sessions of sharpening and adjusting the tension of the bar/chain!

Even with a fully charged battery, and a sharp chain, if I work it too hard it will overheat and shut down until it cools a bit. It doesn't take long to re-set, but it is still annoying. At this point I am not sure if it is the battery or the motor that needs to cool, but if it happens again I will swap a battery right away and report the result.

[Edited on 10-12-2021 by AKgringo]

SFandH - 10-11-2021 at 05:46 PM

Still, it takes 100 pounds of batteries to deliver what 6.3 pounds of gasoline does. That's my point. Tough to beat the energy density of gasoline; however, plutonium does a good job.

Apples and oranges. You are comparing weight of liquid fuel to weight of energy storage device.

I was making the point you would need a fully charged 100-pound battery pack to do the work of 6.3 pounds of gasoline.

An important consideration when addressing hand-held machinery like chain saws. Which would you prefer to move around to do a day's work in the woods with a chain saw? A gallon of gas or 100 pounds of batteries?

Energy density is joules per kilogram. Period. Both gasoline and lithium-ion batteries can be measured in joules per kilogram.

[Edited on 10-12-2021 by SFandH]

John Harper - 10-11-2021 at 06:11 PM

The electric motor develops torque at lower rpms than gas, so it is able to cut with slower chain speed. Cutting hard dry wood, or limbs at high rpm can generate enough heat to shorten the chain and bar life.

One huge advantage of electric motors, constant/instant torque. This is why railroads use electric motors to drive locomotives with diesel generators to supply the electricity, been using it for over 50-70 years now. Electric car acceleration is incredible, from what I've read. Never even been in a Prius, let alone a Tesla. But, torque from electric motors is real.

Why do you think Ford is using torque as a main selling point to the electric F series? They pull harder than gas or diesel trucks. Selling it right down the alley to truck people. I can pull more than you!!!!

If JZ wasn't a GMC guy, I was hoping he'd get the electric Ford F150 truck and show us all up!!! Come on, JZ, show the Goat, buy (lease) an electric F150! You know you love being the "first kid on the block" to have one.

John

[Edited on 10-12-2021 by John Harper]

RFClark - 10-11-2021 at 06:20 PM

So since I can’t comment on the problems that blanket outlawing of small gas motors will cause. I’ll just post this picture! It’s 10/11 we live at 4200’ Computer models are GIGO!

Since I probably can’t use the “S” word either, I’ll leave it to the reader to interpret what they’re looking at!

701B951C-E323-4B40-9015-5D3219104EF6.jpeg - 111kB

701B951C-E323-4B40-9015-5D3219104EF6.jpeg - 111kB

SFandH - 10-11-2021 at 06:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper

Why do you think Ford is using torque as a main selling point to the electric F series? They pull harder than gas or diesel trucks. Selling it right down the alley to truck people. I can pull more than you!!!!

Part of the electric F-150 Lightning increased torque is used to get it moving.

"The Lightning weighs 6,500 pounds—more than 35 percent more than the gas-powered model. That’s in large part because of an immovable weight at its core: an 1,800-pound battery. Part of that is just the nature of electric vehicles: The Tesla Model 3 weighs 1,000 pounds more than a Honda Civic. The more luxurious Tesla Model S weighs 1,200 pounds more than a Lexus ES 350."

https://slate.com/business/2021/05/ford-f150-lightning-elect...

I'm all for electric vehicles but the battery packs are heavy and will become a huge, HUGE toxic waste issue. Currently, it's cheaper to dig the elements needed to make batteries out of the ground than it is to recycle them.

[Edited on 10-12-2021 by SFandH]

A few posts are missing

AKgringo - 10-11-2021 at 07:18 PM

Kind of curious why they were deleted? I can agree that a California law is not exactly a Baja issue, but many of us Nomads will be using some of the gas or electric tools tools being discussed on our trips SOB.

pacificobob - 10-12-2021 at 07:27 AM

Tesla plaid S
0 to 60. 1.9 seconds
$129K
Sweet jebus!

Marc - 10-12-2021 at 07:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ

I've been to China about 20 times. The pollution is so bad you can feel it burning your face. Let us know when they sign up for a Green New Deal.

[Edited on 10-15-2021 by Marc]

I have also been to China and SE Asia. Unbelievable pollution. You have to experience it to believe. How about a Green New Deal for those Bozos and leave us alone.
Marc

[Edited on 10-16-2021 by Marc]

SFandH - 10-12-2021 at 08:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho

Currently, it's cheaper to dig the elements needed to make batteries out of the ground than it is to recycle them.

That's really surprising, considering how concentrated they are in batteries. :?:

"Most of the batteries that do get recycled undergo a high-temperature melting-and-extraction, or smelting, process similar to ones used in the mining industry. Those operations, which are carried out in large commercial facilities—for example, in Asia, Europe, and Canada—are energy intensive. The plants are also costly to build and operate and require sophisticated equipment to treat harmful emissions generated by the smelting process. And despite the high costs, these plants don’t recover all valuable battery materials."

https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-re...

lewmt - 10-15-2021 at 05:35 AM

I have been loving my Milwaukee esaw. I have 12ah + 8ah batteries I use with it & they seem to last a long time. I haven't used it for super consistent cutting like blocking firewood chunks I've used it primarily for clearing mtn bike trails & they've been badly littered. The saw works fantastic for this as its easier & a bit less messy to pack in my backpack.

Having said all that - the earth, the oceans, the atmosphere is going to do what its going to do whether I or everyone uses an e-anything or not. With all forms of energy there are trade-offs. If our fearless leaders decrying "climate change" ever lead by example I may be more accepting of their rhetoric but so far all I see is the hypocrisy of "rules for thee & not for me"

[Edited on 10-15-2021 by lewmt]

mtgoat666 - 10-15-2021 at 06:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lewmt

If our fearless leaders decrying "climate change" ever lead by example I may be more accepting of their rhetoric but so far all I see is the hypocrisy of "rules for thee & not for me"

[Edited on 10-15-2021 by lewmt]

Think global, act local.
Among my peers I see most people are leading by example, and conserve, reuse, recycle.
Plenty of people are leading by example….

Me thinks you should listen less to Fox News and pay more attention to what your neighbors are doing.

Global warming and climate change and finite natural resources are real. Are you going to be a Fox News brainwashed robot, or are you going to be part of the solution?

David K - 10-15-2021 at 08:15 AM

I am sure no more than you are a CNN or MSNBC robot.
The climate has ALWAYS changed and mankind adapts or dies. During the Ice Age and subsequent Warming, people adapted. HUMANS cannot change the climate or the sea level, that is a NATURAL event that happens over hundreds of years.

Being 'clean' is a good thing, we all can agree... but take your band of hypocrites to China, India, Indonesia, etc. where real pollution is being dumped on the earth or into the atmosphere. Let them catch up to us on how to clean up the environment. It should be about healthy living, on a beautiful planet, and not the fantasy of changing the global climate... Keep it real!

pacificobob - 10-15-2021 at 08:22 AM

This from a Fox robot? Or maybe i misunderstood the strange grammar in your first sentence.

[Edited on 10-15-2021 by pacificobob]

David K - 10-15-2021 at 08:39 AM

I was replying to goat... How did you miss his reply? Doesn't matter... Facts are not important to some of you! Have a nice day, Bob!

lewmt - 10-15-2021 at 08:50 AM

Honestly - I haven't watched Fox News in years. MSNBC or CNN either for that matter. I do read a lot of news on line from a variety of sources fully aware that I am reading a biased presentation no matter what my source is. I try to read enough from both sides on articles I'm interested in to juxtapose the information and draw my own conclusions.

Nice try though

Your friends locally or otherwise are irrelevant to the hypocrisy of leadership on the issue. If they truly believe & their strongest desire is to have us(the multitudinous peons) accept their dictates and dogma - why don't they show us how its done?

lewmt - 10-15-2021 at 09:01 AM

Also - you climate change enthusiasts never address the concept of pollution trade-offs. Batteries - what no pollution from manufacture or waste or by-product? Solar panels ? Windmills?

There are trade-offs unless you believe societies worldwide can sustain any economic viability without consistent energy. Try convincing us climate "science" deniers that's a viable approach.

David K - 10-15-2021 at 10:04 AM

It's a need for drama and/or control that drives the 'man is more powerful than Nature and can change natural events' groups.

Those in power and corporations found a way to extract money from people by force or by fear... getting them to buy into the notion we can reverse the natural climate changes through taxes or 'green products'.

We are not alive long enough to see a global climate change from one to another... we do see weather changes and people are led to believe that these are climate changes. Hot summers are really no different than past hot summers... same is true for cold winters... and we can only rely on record keeping that is not much more than 100 years old. That is hardly a way to see real changes.

Be clean, but don't feel threatened to live green... We Americans have excelled in lowering pollution considering all we do and that we help feed the world and make life enhancing products.

mtgoat666 - 10-15-2021 at 11:11 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lewmt

Your friends locally or otherwise are irrelevant to the hypocrisy of leadership on the issue. If they truly believe & their strongest desire is to have us(the multitudinous peons) accept their dictates and dogma - why don't they show us how its done?

That is ridiculous! You wont do the right thing just because you see some leaders not doing the right thing? Some leaders are doing the right thing, why not look to them for example to guide your uncertain morality? Do you continue smoking just because you see some people in leadership continue to smoke?

You should always do the right thing regardless of what you see other people do.

mtgoat666 - 10-15-2021 at 11:21 AM

It's a need for drama and/or control that drives the 'man is more powerful than Nature and can change natural events' groups.

Those in power and corporations found a way to extract money from people by force or by fear... getting them to buy into the notion we can reverse the natural climate changes through taxes or 'green products'.

We are not alive long enough to see a global climate change from one to another... we do see weather changes and people are led to believe that these are climate changes. Hot summers are really no different than past hot summers... same is true for cold winters... and we can only rely on record keeping that is not much more than 100 years old. That is hardly a way to see real changes.

Be clean, but don't feel threatened to live green... We Americans have excelled in lowering pollution considering all we do and that we help feed the world and make life enhancing products.

There are many example of mans impact on climate, biggest example is mans greenhouse gas emissions causing global warming - it is even accepted fact at Exxon. On small scale we even saw climate change in usa due to lack if contrails right after 911 when diurnal temp variation increased due to absence of contrail pollution.

There are many historical records of climate changes. Look at the little ice age in medieval times. Look at the cycles of drought in usa.

John Harper - 10-15-2021 at 11:29 AM

Ice cores, tree rings, sediment layers, pollen analysis, etc. All common methods used by scientists to discern ancient climate and atmospheric conditions. Like the layer of iridium found that helped to narrow the date of the dinosaur demise.

John

David K - 10-15-2021 at 11:34 AM

Correct John... science is great and always changing as new facts are known.

No goat, you are confusing weather changes with climate changes.

Skipjack Joe - 10-15-2021 at 06:41 PM

I am sure no more than you are a CNN or MSNBC robot.
The climate has ALWAYS changed and mankind adapts or dies. During the Ice Age and subsequent Warming, people adapted. HUMANS cannot change the climate or the sea level, that is a NATURAL event that happens over hundreds of years.

Being 'clean' is a good thing, we all can agree... but take your band of hypocrites to China, India, Indonesia, etc. where real pollution is being dumped on the earth or into the atmosphere. Let them catch up to us on how to clean up the environment. It should be about healthy living, on a beautiful planet, and not the fantasy of changing the global climate... Keep it real!

You have no idea tired I am of reading the garbage you write.

Barry A. - 10-15-2021 at 07:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

You have no idea tired I am of reading the garbage you write.

I submit that your being "tired" of what DK writes is YOUR problem. I certainly appreciate his opinions, and like what he writes, and totally agree with him.

Lee - 10-15-2021 at 07:48 PM

HUMANS cannot change the climate or the sea level, that is a NATURAL event that happens over hundreds of years.

Delusional rantings of Baja Tourists.

Any bets David and Barry believe The Big Lie?

LancairDriver - 10-15-2021 at 09:22 PM

The EU has been at the forefront in pushing Green Energy for years. In the latest example of how much fossil fuels are still needed now, Europe is facing a cold winter with energy shortages and no reserves. Ironically in spite of sanctions, threatening, and even sabotage, the US was unable to prevent Russia who completed the gas pipeline alone just recently. In the last few days the US asked Russia would they please hurry and start up the line to save the EU problem. Another example of failed leadership in addressing the problems facing the country and the world.

Marc - 10-16-2021 at 06:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ

I've been to China about 20 times. The pollution is so bad you can feel it burning your face. Let us know when they sign up for a Green New Deal.

I have also been to China and SE Asia. Unbelievable pollution. You have to experience it to believe. How about a Green New Deal for those Bozos and leave us alone.
Marc

pacificobob - 10-16-2021 at 06:13 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lee

HUMANS cannot change the climate or the sea level, that is a NATURAL event that happens over hundreds of years.

Delusional rantings of Baja Tourists.

Any bets David and Barry believe The Big Lie?

I would put that bet into the "lead pipe cinch" category.

TMW - 10-16-2021 at 12:10 PM

Where is the recycling stuff going? China stopped taking it so where are we sending it? My guess is to the dump where it went before. As far as I know only aluminum cans and paper is being recycled in the U.S.

A Google Search:
According to the EPA, of the 267.8 million tons of municipal solid waste generated by Americans in 2017, only 94.2 million tons were recycled or composted. Sixty-six percent of discarded paper and cardboard was recycled, 27 percent of glass, and 8 percent of plastics were recycled.Mar 13, 2020

What percentage of recycling actually gets recycled 2020?
This will likely come as no surprise to longtime readers, but according to National Geographic, an astonishing 91 percent of plastic doesn't actually get recycled. This means that only around 9 percent is being recycled.Mar 16, 2021

Why is glass no longer recyclable?

Note: Drinking glasses, glass objects, and window glass cannot be placed with recyclable glass because they have different chemical properties and melt at different temperatures than the recyclable bottles and containers. Broken drinking glass goes into the trash stream.

John Harper - 10-16-2021 at 12:33 PM

Hurtling towards oblivion on so many fronts.

John

AKgringo - 10-16-2021 at 01:07 PM

When I replaced the single pane, aluminum sash windows in my dad's house
ten years ago, the recycling center at the local transfer station would not accept the glass panes.

They would take the aluminum frames, as long as all non-aluminum rivets and screws were removed, but they told me to toss the clean glass into the trash!

Jaybo - 10-16-2021 at 11:35 PM

When I replaced the single pane, aluminum sash windows in my dad's house
ten years ago, the recycling center at the local transfer station would not accept the glass panes.

They would take the aluminum frames, as long as all non-aluminum rivets and screws were removed, but they told me to toss the clean glass into the trash!

Window glass melts at a much higher temperature so it is not energy effective to reprocess it. When you put it in with container glass recycling it contaminates and causes the container glass to be worthless.

The same thing is essentially true for aluminum with contaminants, but that depends on metal prices. 10 years ago they were in a slump so the recycling places were very picky about what they took. if the metal is cleaned especially extruded window frames, it gets top money at recycle places.

Skipjack Joe - 10-17-2021 at 02:01 AM

What about the doing the right thing regardless of cost?

What is the alternative cost of living with garbage?

surfhat - 10-17-2021 at 11:45 AM

Thank you neighbor John Harper, as always, for the voice of reason in a dastardly and purposely? designed controversial atmosphere. Divide and conquer is not an abstract.

We share a particular perspective on this and another website on a daily basis.

Please do carry on good neighbor. Your opinion needs to be heard and repeated until those who chose to sell out our democracy are held accountable. And for what and for whom? Il Duce shows every time. Who can buy into that?

Rant over. Peace out.

Jaybo - 10-18-2021 at 07:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

What about the doing the right thing regardless of cost?

What is the alternative cost of living with garbage?

The cost of energy and the CO2 it produces is greater than the cost of manufacturing new glass. We will always have *some* waste. Not everything is going to be able to be reused. My previous job of 34 years was in the waste industry so I'm a little knowledgeable about it.

Yes we need to do all we can to recycle as much as possible, but the general public often ruins it at the collection point by throwing contaminated material into the recycling stream. The plants that recycle container glass for example have really tight margins with the price of energy needed to recycle it. If the drop box of glass delivered to them is contaminated, they refuse to take the load, because they simply cannot afford to separate out the contaminates and pay to dispose of them. Do you expect them to just take it anyway losing money and forcing them into bankruptcy?

There is always going to be trash, and as time and and innovation continue it will get better and there will be less of it.

Skipjack Joe - 10-19-2021 at 07:51 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

What about the doing the right thing regardless of cost?

What is the alternative cost of living with garbage?

You're right. In retrospect my comment was kind of dumb.

mtgoat666 - 10-19-2021 at 08:07 AM

…the general public often ruins it at the collection point by throwing contaminated material into the recycling stream.

The mfgs don’t label their plastic and glass very well, so public has little idea what is recyclable, and so public throws everything in the blue bin….

I try to recycle responsibly, but I also would like product labeling to make my sorting easier.
Need govt to mandate labels!

Jaybo - 10-20-2021 at 05:53 AM

…the general public often ruins it at the collection point by throwing contaminated material into the recycling stream.

The manufacturers are not the ones collecting the material. Your collector will have information on what *they* collect as recyclable materials. Read their instructions or ask them as to what is allowed.

Once China stopped taking all of our "recycling" that was heavily contaminated by improper materials being put into bins both at the waste generator and collector levels, they have become a lot more strict as far as what they will take. I understand your frustration, but the information as to what is recyclable comes from the company or municipality that is collecting it.

mtgoat666 - 10-21-2021 at 06:23 PM

Mankind may be doomed for fall of civilization, and extinction?

https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/these-scientists-did-more-...

https://futurism.com/the-byte/humanity-doomed-scientists

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/financial-stability-oversight...

56 Percent of Young People Think Humanity Is Doomed
https://www.vice.com/en/article/88npnp/fifty-six-percent-of-...

If we don’t cause our own extinction, then an asteroid certainly will. On average Every 100M years we get Mega-extinction level asteroids here (last one was 66M years ago)

“ An impact from an asteroid that's more than about a half-mile wide would be a global catastrophe. Even on the small end, an asteroid of that size would destroy everything within hundreds of miles of ground zero, triggering massive earthquakes and fires. The dust and smoke sent into the atmosphere would darken the skies for months, plunging the Earth into a mini ice age, causing worldwide crop failures. An asteroid similar in size to the one that doomed the dinosaurs would probably trigger mass extinctions, blot out the sun entirely for months, and kill billions of humans. Still, some scientists think that those who didn't perish in the initial blast or die in the subsequent global famine might stand a chance at long-term survival. University of Colorado geoscientist Brian Toon estimates that it would take an asteroid 60 miles wide to fully obliterate the human race. "That," he says, "would incinerate everybody." ‘

[Edited on 10-22-2021 by mtgoat666]

mtgoat666 - 11-1-2021 at 08:42 PM

Don’t chose extinction!
https://youtu.be/VaTgTiUhEJg

More rising sea level stuff to fight over

Santiago - 11-4-2021 at 01:10 PM

https://omny.fm/shows/hidden-brain/we-broke-the-planet-now-w...

Hidden Brain is an interesting weekly 1 hour program on NPR (the "P" in NPR does NOT stand for Progressive, by the way) that looks at psychological and sociological issues. Last week's program diverged a bit and looked at those that are not fighting climate change, but actually dealing with the affects in their own countries and cities and focusing on adapting to them.
Netherlands have been doing this for years but have changed their methods and the Seychelles are literally dredging sand and adding it to the islands and atolls they deem worth saving.
For those of you who believe this stuff it is sobering indeed; for those of you who do not, you should get sober.

[Edited on 11-4-2021 by Santiago]

pauldavidmena - 11-4-2021 at 01:55 PM

My workplace just presented at the recent international climate conference in Glasgow. Here is the press release.

willardguy - 11-4-2021 at 02:18 PM

enter Special K.....

Timinator - 11-5-2021 at 09:51 AM

I think people are getting erosion and sea level mixed up.

David K - 11-8-2021 at 12:04 PM

If anyone watches the crab fishing show each year, Deadliest Catch, they know the ice pack is as heavy as ever. The sea level still remains between high and low tide, same over the past 100 years.

Baja Nomad is nearing its 20th birthday, and some here, over those years, aren't able to accept the physical science we can see but will fall for anything politicians say! :biggrin:

caj13 - 11-8-2021 at 12:54 PM

Hey TMW - so so is it Al Gore? or the scientific studies that he was quoting?
and what happened to Geraldos posts with the "statements" overlaid on the nice photos from Politifake? where did it go?

and david, so thats the sum total of your "research"? you watch cerab fisherman on TV and look at a couple of photos of a tree? when are you ever going to actually look at real science - you know - the stuff you claim to believe in, until you get called out, and go running to the mod to delete your idiotic posts and those who point them out as bogus drivel wrapped in willfull ignorance?

LancairDriver - 11-8-2021 at 01:42 PM

If anyone watches the crab fishing show each year, Deadliest Catch, they know the ice pack is as heavy as ever. The sea level still remains between high and low tide, same over the past 100 years.

Baja Nomad is nearing its 20th birthday, and some here, over those years, aren't able to accept the physical science we can see but will fall for anything politicians say! :biggrin:

David, The koolaid drinkers will always drink the koolaid and trust the so called scientist or politician of the day instead of their own eyes.It’s the WOKE mentality.

JZ - 11-8-2021 at 02:09 PM

Again, even if you accept that the climate is changing, can man do anything about it? Can a big, bloated govt. do something about it.

All this spending for the climate is just a big power grab.

mtgoat666 - 11-8-2021 at 03:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ

Again, even if you accept that the climate is changing, can man do anything about it?

perhaps man can.
we will never know if we dont study it, and try.

if we can accomplish things like flying to flocking edge of the solar system, i think we can understand and solve solve greenhouse gas pollution

David K - 11-8-2021 at 04:13 PM

The climate is changing, always has and always will... takes about 10,000 years to change from one climate to another. It was an Ice Age when our Siberian amigos walked into Alaska. Animals and people adapt to these slow changes... they didn't pay some government a 'carbon tax' to hide their self-imposed guilt, to try to alter a natural event.

John Harper - 11-8-2021 at 04:15 PM

Well, the ozone "hole" was apparently created by man, and, once the culprit was identified, changes were made. Chemistry explained the reaction of CFC's with ozone, and back then people trusted science.

CFC's were banned (probably not 100% successfully, but better than vaccination rates) and we thereby developed less harmful refrigerants. Sound familiar?

I have not heard any warnings about the ozone "hole" for years. Now for you contrarians of everything, I ask you, was that just a hoax to get government control? Control of what, exactly? Does your air conditioning still work?

John

JZ - 11-8-2021 at 04:46 PM

Did anyone notice the 400 private jets at the so-called "climate summit."

Or the 80 car motorcade our fierce leader was riding around in? And he still managed to sh!t his pants at the Vatican, literally, not figuratively.

All these ppl want is money and power.

David K - 11-8-2021 at 05:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper

Well, the ozone "hole" was apparently created by man, and, once the culprit was identified, changes were made. Chemistry explained the reaction of CFC's with ozone, and back then people trusted science.

CFC's were banned (probably not 100% successfully, but better than vaccination rates) and we thereby developed less harmful refrigerants. Sound familiar?

I have not heard any warnings about the ozone "hole" for years. Now for you contrarians of everything, I ask you, was that just a hoax to get government control? Control of what, exactly? Does your air conditioning still work?

John

When you study a 4-billion-year-old atmosphere for 50-60 years and think you see an abnormality, then you got to wonder what was that for if not to create some panic and gain revenue for your foundation.

How do they know ozone holes, coming and going, are not a 'normal thing' in Nature? Solar wind, sun spots, etc. can do a lot to our polar regions.

When a volcano erupts, with millions more pounds of "ozone-depleting" gasses than all the aerosols humans have ever used, you can only stand by and watch. No amount of taxation and spending can stop volcanoes from erupting!

Still, I am all in favor of cleaner EVERYTHING. Well, except my truck off-roading in Baja!

Once you accept that all this climate hysteria is a TOOL to extract money from American pockets, you may see through those rose-colored glasses better.

Peace, Love, and Fish Tacos, for everyone! :light:

Bajaboy - 11-8-2021 at 05:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper

David, how many water ways in the US are considered clean? How did they get contaminated? Do you think that car emissions create pollution?

Who exactly gets all of this money? Do you think private companies might benefit?

David K - 11-8-2021 at 06:30 PM

"David, how many water ways in the US are considered clean?"
Way, way more than in China or India (or maybe most other industrial countries)!

"How did they get contaminated?"
By pouring junk in them... but we in the U.S. learned and made them clean again.

"Do you think that car emissions create pollution?"
Anything that exhales or farts is a polluter according to some, but is it all harmful or just normal?

"Who exactly gets all of this money?"
Not the taxpaying citizens who should be keeping that money for their families.

"Do you think private companies might benefit?"
From what? Helping to make something people want? I hope so, because they create jobs and that's how an economy works.

mtgoat666 - 11-8-2021 at 07:38 PM

"Do you think private companies might benefit?"
From what? Helping to make something people want? I hope so, because they create jobs and that's how an economy works.

Solution to global warming will be developed by private industry and public universities, within regulatory framework of government.

Dk, you are very ignorant of how regulations drive business to do good things that benefit our society. And there is nothing wrong with using government to force old business models to change to the way we want things to be.

CWA, CAA, RCRA, CERCLA were implemented by businesses: manufacturers, environmental engineers/contractors.

The mandate to move to renewable power is leading to many thriving businesses.

The mandates to go electric for vehicles is forcing business to adapt in great ways. Ever driven an e-vehicle? Way more enjoyable drive than that IC engine toyota you drive.

People want government to create reg framework to solve problems, and you are always on the dinosaur side of change.
Pull your head out of your a$$.

JZ - 11-8-2021 at 09:06 PM

People want government to create reg framework to solve problems, and you are always on the dinosaur side of change.
Pull your head out of your a$$.

That sure isn't what they are trying to do now. And you know it.

Let's just pray that don't destroy America before they get booted out.

mtgoat666 - 5-14-2022 at 06:03 PM

What La Paz and San Diego beach communities will look like in 65 years.

Guerrro negro will be gone.

Hwy 1 will have to be relocated toward the mountains.

Downtown Ensenada will be inundated where will they build the new malecon?

Encourage your kids to go into civil engineering and heavy civil construction with emphasis on coastal engineering,… good job security, as mankind is incapable of fixing their pollution! Nice places to work, along the coast, none of that interior desert chit where 125-degree summer days will be the norm.

:no:

[Edited on 5-15-2022 by mtgoat666]

Copacetico1 - 5-15-2022 at 11:34 AM

And the Sea of Cortez will reach north of the Salton Sea. Palm Springs will become a major beach resort and property values will skyrocket. Meanwhile dykes will be built around San Diego, just as with New Orleans, Amsterdam, Singapore and Copenhagen and life will go on.

David K - 5-15-2022 at 12:15 PM

Or... the sea will remain about the same, as we see it has for over 100 years in photos? Show me a boat launch ramp built over 60 years ago that is underwater now. Just relax and enjoy life with what little money you have. All the tax payers hard earned dollars being spent on 'climate change' will not change a natural occurrence.
:light:

pacificobob - 5-15-2022 at 03:24 PM

Science doesn't care what you believe.

[Edited on 5-15-2022 by pacificobob]

caj13 - 5-17-2022 at 08:28 AM

Or... the sea will remain about the same, as we see it has for over 100 years in photos? Show me a boat launch ramp built over 60 years ago that is underwater now. Just relax and enjoy life with what little money you have. All the tax payers hard earned dollars being spent on 'climate change' will not change a natural occurrence.
:light:

Ah - so you can not google images to look for those photos?

and you don't believe. the dramatic increases in severity and frequency of extreme weather events?

and you obviously ignore the economist predications of effects on economies by climate change?

and you figure you can ignore literally thousands of scientific studies - all based on huge data sets - because you don't want to believe?

and whats the motive forr these people trying to stop climate change? whats their objective - and more importantly - why?

David - remember when we all had a big belly laugh when you kept insisting you liked and believed in science?

Sorry David, climate change is here, its real and it's causing untold economic damage all over the planet. Thats the truth - No matter what you want to believe!

and once again - if some secret cabal trying to destroy world wide economies is your contention - any idea why they would be doing that?

and just for fun David - how about you look up the research on economic benefits of technologies and projects that reduce carbon emmissions?

hell almost half of all electricity being used in California is renewable

- my energy is free after making the one time investment in solar panels - pays for itself in another 9 months - then its free electricity for the next 20 years - so am I trying to destroy the economy by not paying PGE? and how did I destroy the economy by putting people who engineer build and install solar systems to work?

rectal cranial inversion results in cutting of flow of Oxygen to the Brain david - thats what you really need to be concerned about - look up the science on that!

David K - 5-17-2022 at 09:53 AM

It's like talking to a wall with you... and why I wonder why I try at all.

I believe in climate change, that is a fact... The climate is ALWAYS CHANGING, man or no man. The problem I have is the need for your group to say it is man-caused (now) and that taking tax payers' money will change the climate. Every few years, when the catastrophe, your side predicted, DOESN'T happen, you change the name of the event or give a new prediction as to when the sea will swallow Miami, etc.

More truth is that the longer one lives, the more extreme weather events one will witness. Weather is not the same as climate. Weather can change in a day, climates change over hundreds to thousands of years.

LancairDriver - 5-17-2022 at 10:09 AM

I keep following this thread to see one of the “Google climate experts” finally provide a credible explanation as to why the iconic palm tree remains high and dry after decades of photographic evidence as if in defiance of the rising sea warnings.

caj13 - 5-18-2022 at 08:19 AM

It's like talking to a wall with you... and why I wonder why I try at all.

I believe in climate change, that is a fact... The climate is ALWAYS CHANGING, man or no man. The problem I have is the need for your group to say it is man-caused (now) and that taking tax payers' money will change the climate. Every few years, when the catastrophe, your side predicted, DOESN'T happen, you change the name of the event or give a new prediction as to when the sea will swallow Miami, etc.

More truth is that the longer one lives, the more extreme weather events one will witness. Weather is not the same as climate. Weather can change in a day, climates change over hundreds to thousands of years.

Care to actually provide a link to these supposed "predictions" that have not come true? I promise for every one you provide, I will provide 5 links when predicitions were accurate - but you first - wheres your sourse for this claim of failed predictions?

Next
OK what tax payers money? for what? you spout that rhetoric all - the time - what tax payer money for what? and while you are at it, do you care to look up the costs of dealing with catastrophic weather events over the past 10 years? how does that compare to previous decades?

You did get one thing right David. =- well sort of
You are correct that climates change over thousands (more like tens and hundreds of thousands) of years.

That's the point - see the changes we saw taking place over those long time frames - well it turns out they are now happening in much much much tighter time frames. its not the change David - its the RATE of CHANGE that has scientists concerned. Stuff we expect to see over 1000 years is changing in 10 years - its the rate,

A quick google search will demonstrate how wrong your Miami isn't seeing climate change effects - just google it David - its all there - measurements, data, statistical analysis, events, costs, concerns - its all there.

I've come to realize why you choose to be Willfuly Ignorant on this subject David. You are plenty smart enough to recognize that if you actually do some research, look at studies, data, results etc - these will all be counter to your personal beliefs. And when that happens - you are confronted with having to change your beliefs. That ain't easy David - in fact - the science you so dearly love - you know what it says about having to change a core belief?
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2016/12/28/14088992/b...

BTW just for the record, a good portion of my research over the past 20 years is being used in climate change science, so i do know maybe just a little tiny bit more that just googling things.

Skipjack Joe - 5-18-2022 at 09:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by LancairDriver

I keep following this thread to see one of the “Google climate experts” finally provide a credible explanation as to why the iconic palm tree remains high and dry after decades of photographic evidence as if in defiance of the rising sea warnings.

F.ck the palm tree! Enough of that.

RFClark - 5-18-2022 at 10:38 AM

caj13,

If you drive south from Palm Springs to San Felipe you can see evidence that sea level has been 20M higher in the past. There is also evidence that it has been 100+M lower in the past. Few dispute that! Additionally the land rises and falls in elevation over time, often over short time spans and by a number of feet! (Think Naples here!) These things have always occurred! Everything about the earth and its atmosphere has been radically different in the past!

The real issue is will putting the enviroleftists in charge solve any of this!

As a Conservative who has both solar and alt-fuel cars I see over reaching government as most of the problem and little of the solution!
Many of the dirtiest places on the planet are that way as a direct result of government failing to follow the rules that it tries to force on everyone except itself! (Think hypocrites only wearing masks when on camera or flying to environmental events in private jets here!)

The real problem is there are too many people! No one is going to touch that issue! All else is political theater!

SFandH - 5-18-2022 at 10:47 AM

If you drive south from Palm Springs to San Felipe ........

“A little learning is a dangerous thing.”

[Edited on 5-18-2022 by SFandH]

RFClark - 5-18-2022 at 10:51 AM

You mean like Liberal Arts degree as opposed to a technical degree!

SFandH - 5-18-2022 at 11:00 AM

You mean like Liberal Arts degree as opposed to a technical degree!

You don't understand what I meant?

RFClark - 5-18-2022 at 11:12 AM

If you mean that a movement that has an autistic teenager as a major spokesperson is operating on very little knowledge and is dangerous, yes I understand and agree!

SFandH - 5-18-2022 at 11:14 AM

No, I didn't mean that and I certainly didn't say anything to imply that.

RFClark - 5-18-2022 at 11:32 AM

SF&H

The problem is the Earth’s Climate is a very dynamic system that we currently don’t really understand and can't model! At the end of the day we think that it’s primarily driven by the sun, which we also can't model because we don’t understand it. It’s also driven by other cycles that we also don’t understand and can't model.

Most agree that we are effecting the system to some degree. When I was in college the then current theory was that a new ice age was coming! Probably not! You can track the rise in temperatures and CO2 against population growth! Until you really address the overpopulation of the planet you're not going to do much and putting a bunch of hypocrites in charge won’t change that!

caj13 - 5-19-2022 at 09:30 AM

caj13,

If you drive south from Palm Springs to San Felipe you can see evidence that sea level has been 20M higher in the past. There is also evidence that it has been 100+M lower in the past. Few dispute that! Additionally the land rises and falls in elevation over time, often over short time spans and by a number of feet! (Think Naples here!) These things have always occurred! Everything about the earth and its atmosphere has been radically different in the past!

The real issue is will putting the enviroleftists in charge solve any of this!

As a Conservative who has both solar and alt-fuel cars I see over reaching government as most of the problem and little of the solution!
Many of the dirtiest places on the planet are that way as a direct result of government failing to follow the rules that it tries to force on everyone except itself! (Think hypocrites only wearing masks when on camera or flying to environmental events in private jets here!)

The real problem is there are too many people! No one is going to touch that issue! All else is political theater!

Richard, of course sea level changes, always has, always will, . the channell Islands used to be one island used to be about 5 miles offshore - because the ice age tied up enough water to lower sea levels 300 feet. Thats why there were pygmy Mammoths on Catalina BTW - https://www.nps.gov/chis/learn/historyculture/pygmymammoth.h...
but thats a whole different story.

so when Davis starts talking about miniscule changes not making a difference - He of course is ignoring all of the geological, fossil and geographic evidence - but thats expected from someone who actually believes the world is flat . He also believes the earth is 6000 years old - so of course hes not understanding Rates of change - in his mind the earth was created in 6 days!

The difference is those things happened much more slowly - as I have told David, and others here REPEATEDLY - its not the change - It's the RATE of change that has been so drastically accelerated.

Once again I see all sorts of Nebulous claims about secret cabals and radical leftists trying to control you patriots. but - of course, no one here actually wants to point out specific instances.

Richard - the reason you have solar and alt Fuel cars - both saving you money - as well as contributing to solutions - is that those were "forced" onto people to try and deal with the issue of climate change.
so how did they force you Richard? did they show up at your door with guns and demand you purchase solar panels?

There are solutions Richard - and its science that has given us those solutions. There is no single overarching thing, its thousands and thousands of little changes, making things more efficient, changing energy sources, tweaking behavior, renewables, carbon capture - etc. guess what Richard - turns out all those things save YOU MONEY, and make the Planet healthier - so I'm not so sure why thats such an evil thing?

change isn't hard, unless you are unwilling to learn, and unwilling to apply your intellect for a bit of deductive reasoning and logical thought processes!

[Edited on 5-19-2022 by caj13]

caj13 - 5-19-2022 at 09:41 AM

SF&H

The problem is the Earth’s Climate is a very dynamic system that we currently don’t really understand and can't model! At the end of the day we think that it’s primarily driven by the sun, which we also can't model because we don’t understand it. It’s also driven by other cycles that we also don’t understand and can't model.

Most agree that we are effecting the system to some degree. When I was in college the then current theory was that a new ice age was coming! Probably not! You can track the rise in temperatures and CO2 against population growth! Until you really address the overpopulation of the planet you're not going to do much and putting a bunch of hypocrites in charge won’t change that!

Turns out you were probably right - back in the 1960's. But guess what - science keeps learning, advancing. technology gets better, Data sets get bigger and broader, and well - turns out the climate models we have are actually pretty good - and they are improving all the time.
just to refresh your memory - there was never any "current theory" in the 70's that a new ice age was coming. Look it up - do just a bit of research, turns out thats a bogus claim made by climate deniers. I provided links debunking that BS - here in this forum a couple years ago - so you really need to update you schtick!

And its not the Sun - Richard - Thats been well and truely debunked - I provided links for that as well- Look it up -

Population - you are partially right, but its not the populations directly, its the burning of fossil fuels, and release of chemicals into the atmosphere that are driving this rapid change. The good thing is - the solution is obvious - quit burning so much oil - switch to alternative fuels when we can - promote and speed up clean technologies that reduce our carbon footprints - there is a hell of alot we can do as individuals, as states , and as nations - the only question is - do we have the will to change? some like you , and David throw up your hands and say - It'd beyond ours understanding, and its beyond our control.

science says Bu$$pit to that - we know what's going on and why - we know how to deal with it.

I chose to be part of the solution Richard - you go back to sitting on the porch and yelling at the neighbor kids to get off your lawn!

RFClark - 5-19-2022 at 10:46 AM

Caj13,

I don’t know if you have a technical BG or not! I know that I do!

FYI sea level at the end of the last ice age was about 350’ lower then today! Before the last ice age it was about 30’ higher! None of which accounts for the changes in elevation of the land itself. The US east coast comes to mind here!

Anyone who believes that the sun isn’t the primary source of the earth’s weather is a fool! The best current theory on why there were cycles in our climate pre-humanity is changes in earth’s orbit and inclination caused by orbital resonances with the sun, moon and Jupiter! These changes affect earth’s amount of insolation!

https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2948/milankovitch-orbital-cycl...

There were a number of accepted scientific theories in the 60’s taught in the LAUSD that were wrong some stupidly so! “Only birds fly so bats just glide” comes to mind!

Continental drift was a new and unaccepted theory! We are at the beginnings of a new Ice age being another. The solar nebula theory of planet formation was widely unaccepted leading to the belief that stars with planets were rare rather than common as dirt!

All were wrong, some glaringly so!

Accepted science is more often than not incomplete or just plain wrong!

My point is this putting people in charge who have repeatedly demonstrated that they won’t follow the rules that they claim are “science” and want to force on the rest of us is a bad idea especially when the “science” is agenda driven!

This is especially true when the rest of the earth’s billions won’t do the same things! I’ve been to China! What you see is Coal mining and Coal transport everywhere. India ditto! Want to calculate how much pollution a few billion people cooking over a organic fueled fire creates? Then there is the burn the old crop stubble approach to agriculture! That’s the population effect I spoke of! If those billions aren't onboard what we do won’t count!

Please note I’m not saying that a clean environment isn’t a good goal, it is! I’m doing more than most to help!

How many KW of solar panels do you have? Any alt-fuel transport?

[Edited on 5-19-2022 by RFClark]

[Edited on 5-19-2022 by RFClark]

[Edited on 5-19-2022 by RFClark]

David K - 5-19-2022 at 11:17 AM

It almost is just too obvious;
The one side choses to ignore the fact the sea level has not gotten any closer to the palm, in nearly 90 years (or more). Is it because it takes away the justification for all the climate crime they want to levy on the world (and fill their pockets)!?

Every time a climate prediction fails to happen, they can't admit they were wrong! They do have a new excuse, however... and a new (future) date.

Is living in fear or under stress so important to them?

The question is simple: Is the sea level higher now than in 1936? Answer no (and a raise the length of a cigarette doesn't count if the tide rises a hundred cigarette widths, every day). Just a one foot rise in sea level wound put the palm in the water every lunar high tide.

This is not just a quark (or fact) in Baja (or here in San Diego)... but around the world:

Sea Level.jpg - 51kB

RFClark - 5-19-2022 at 12:00 PM

David,

Accurate (less than 1mm) measurements of the mean sea level world wide have only been possible for about 30 years. GPS and satellite laser altimetry have only recently been available, of the two GPS is the more accurate by at least an order of magnitude! The paper cited below is from 2017.

https://www.osti.gov/biblio/1406751-potential-limitations-sa...

How fast the sea is rising and the causes depend on your politics. What is clear is the delta C (the change in the rate of change) is beyond the ability of the current generation of satellite laser altimeters to resolve! Example the melting of floating ice actually lowers sea level!

Ongoing GPS monitoring at thousands of locations will answer the question but will take years to collect enough data! The change numbers are just GIGO until land elevation changes, wind and air pressure changes are included in the results!

BajaGringo - 5-19-2022 at 12:50 PM

It almost is just too obvious;
The one side choses to ignore the fact the sea level has not gotten any closer to the palm, in nearly 90 years (or more). Is it because it takes away the justification for all the climate crime they want to levy on the world (and fill their pockets)!?

Every time a climate prediction fails to happen, they can't admit they were wrong! They do have a new excuse, however... and a new (future) date.

Is living in fear or under stress so important to them?

The question is simple: Is the sea level higher now than in 1936? Answer no (and a raise the length of a cigarette doesn't count if the tide rises a hundred cigarette widths, every day). Just a one foot rise in sea level wound put the palm in the water every lunar high tide.

This is not just a quark (or fact) in Baja (or here in San Diego)... but around the world:

I am not 100% positive of the exact percentage of man's impact on global warming and the recent pandemic provided us with a mixed bag of evidence which both sides of this argument will try to use to help make their case.

https://climate.nasa.gov/news/3129/emission-reductions-from-...

I do believe we should treat this planet as stewards and not conquerors if you care in just the least little bit about the future we will leave for the generations to come. Continuing on the course we are on and plotting the most critical resources vs population growth shows that sufficient food and potable water along with perhaps even breathable oxygen could each become exponentially more valuable than oil, beverly hills real estate and gold all combined.

Too many today (I believe) solely focus on the levels of our seas when the receding land masses and underwater real estate will probably be the least of our worries.

However, I'll play along since it seems to be the only parameter anybody wants to argue over and interject that empirical measurements of tide levels over the decades are worth about as much as the 8 year old tire I recently pulled off my truck, without taking into account the tide's relative position in the annual tide cycles vs the annual mean tide levels (which also change over the decades), any geological activity, currents, sand deposits/erosion, etc.

Shorelines constantly change over time and the distance a palm tree is near its edge means literally nothing as an increasing sea level could simply carve away or bring additional sand with the tide cycles and an increasing or decreasing amount of the palm tree appear visible above the sand - or even appear to stay the same.

Your photos prove nothing.

If you want a more accurate indicator David, and wish to sway my opinion, bring out a surveyor and set a deep, graduated stake in concrete near the palm tree and measure the exact tide level relative to the marked height of some easily identifiable landmark onshore nearby. Then, continue to make those observations every hour over decades. That's a lot of work and expense to come up with anything that could even resemble something scientifically defensible but in the meantime we do have lots of evidence of increased coastal flooding over the last 70 years, something much easier to document and evaluate vs other contributing factors:

Coastal flooding increasing

Here in San Quintin, the Old Mill area now is usually completely under water during the January King Tide cycles, something the local old timers tell me only started happening here back in the early 80's.

Does that data definitely prove the sea levels are increasing? No.

And your other example is also a poor one and in fact, actually helps makes the opposite case for which you advocate. Blow that image up and look closer to count the rows of stone visible out of the water:

That really doesn't prove anything either but again, we are ignoring what I believe are the real problems ahead. We really should all be focusing on the growing shortages in food supplies and potable water, as not only are they essential for life but their scarcity also leads to further environmental degradation.

A catch-22 double whammy which will make all this arguing back and forth seem silly.

I doubt anyone here will be swayed from our personal beliefs on the issue as partisan politics seem to trump logic and common sense but know that future generations will indeed hold us accountable for our ignorance/negligence.

Now you can all go back to your political finger pointing and name calling...

SFandH - 5-19-2022 at 12:56 PM

The first photos of Sydney Harbour are meaningless. I just checked, there are 6 foot tides in that harbor. The photo at the right was obviously taken at low tide. You can see the tidal water line on the building. Who knows what the height of the tide was on the left photo.

Same goes with the palm tree photos. No reference whatsoever to the tidal conditions.

[Edited on 5-19-2022 by SFandH]

mtgoat666 - 5-19-2022 at 12:57 PM

Scientist have been recording sea level at tide gages for hundreds of years, gages surveyed to elevation datums. Measurement of sea level change is based on records dating back hundreds of years

Photos are meaningless for recording sea level elevation.

SFandH - 5-19-2022 at 01:00 PM

Absolutely!

David K - 5-19-2022 at 01:12 PM

I have been trying to show / and get you all to think 'outside' of the tidal range change.

There is no crisis in sea level! There is, however, a crisis in Ukraine and a crisis in the White House!

BajaTed - 5-19-2022 at 01:16 PM

This thread needs a recent photo of the palm tree.

Side note:
The other most iconic plant I've seen is the supposed oldest Saguro cactus around in a remote area by Quartzite AZ. It has 27 arms and is quite the sight to see. She is quite healthy looking too.

David K - 5-19-2022 at 01:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaTed

This thread needs a recent photo of the palm tree.

Sept 2021:

Coyote Palm 9-21.jpg - 69kB

RFClark - 5-19-2022 at 05:26 PM

Goat & others,

https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/datums/faq.shtml

You might want to read about elevation datums and their pre-GPS accuracy (or lack there of) adjustments of as much as 9 meters were required for a variety of reasons but mostly because the ground moves a lot even over short time scales! The current location accuracy for an “A” location is +/- 5mm.

This is not to say that the sea isn’t rising. It is and it has risen about 350’ since the end of the last ice age! It is to say that it’s difficult to measure small annual changes over short periods prior to the last few decades!

Those old tide records often don't reflect the elevation and even the location of the gage over the course of it’s measurements which makes them unusable!

BajaTed - 5-20-2022 at 08:29 AM