BajaNomad

San Ignacio - La Sierrita Route

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Lance S. - 4-15-2023 at 05:45 PM

Route begins on page 436
https://sachsen.digital/werkansicht/18685/440?tx_dlf_navigat...

A quick look at the route described in Itinerarios y Derroteros. The section from San Ignacio to San Andreas is well described. At San Andreas the route split in two and rejoined at a place called La Sierrita. . The costal route was difficult and seldom used. Below is a rundown of what may have been the main route from San Andreas to La Sierrita.

San Andres, that is what Goldbaum seems to label this location., mislabeled?
28°47'04"N 114°10'03"W

Water 29°00'04"N 114°15'31"W

Codornices 29°11'18"N 114°18'35"W

Water 29°13'35"N 114°28'06"W

Salado (Aguaje Salado?) There is a salt flat nearby that probably explains the name. 29°18'01"N 114°34'47"W

San Jose de Las Palomas. A rancheria name that appears frequently in the registers for San Fernando
Appears as Codornices on modern maps. 29°24'13"N 114°37'09"W

Need to fill in this section between Palomas and San Julio, its on Goldbaum, will come back to it. The water source for Cerro Blanco?

Rancho San Julio right in here somewhere 29°40'01"N 114°55'02"W

Water 29°45'05"N 114°58'22"W

Catarina, S. Catarina on 1922 map and Catavina on Goldbaum. 9°50'50"N 115°01'49"W

La Sierrita 29°52'00"N 115°03'36"W

The whole thing is shown on Goldbaum.


[Edited on 4-16-2023 by Lance S.]



[Edited on 1-4-2024 by Lance S.]

[Edited on 4-13-2024 by Lance S.]

Lance S. - 4-15-2023 at 06:25 PM

Really should be called the San Ignacio - San Fernando route since that's what essentially is. Was it an arm of the camino real? One of Crosby's criteria is documented use before 1822. The earliest I can find is 1849 and that follows the costal arm.
The Dominican military button found on the route is intriguing though. It's harder to believe the route wasn't used in the mission period.


[Edited on 1-4-2024 by Lance S.]

[Edited on 1-4-2024 by Lance S.]

David K - 4-15-2023 at 06:46 PM

Consag explored that region on his third expedition (1751?) but he found no location that made a mission possible.
No ECR documented route. But, who knows for sure beyond those alive at the time?

4x4abc - 4-15-2023 at 06:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
A quick rundown of the route described in Itinerarios y Derroteros. The section from San Ignacio to San Andreas is well described. At San Andreas the route split in two and rejoined at a place called La Sierrita. . The costal route was difficult and seldom used. Below is a rundown of the main route from San Andreas to La Sierrita before it began shifting over to accommodate wheeled vehicle travel.

San Andres, that is what Goldbaum seems to label this location., mislabeled?
28°47'04"N 114°10'03"W

Water 29°00'04"N 114°15'31"W

Codornices 29°11'18"N 114°18'35"W

Water 29°13'35"N 114°28'06"W

Salado (Aguaje Salado?) There is a salt flat nearby that probably explains the name. 29°18'01"N 114°34'47"W

San Jose de Las Palomas. A rancheria name that appears frequently in the registers for San Fernando
Appears as Codornices on modern maps. 29°24'13"N 114°37'09"W

Need to fill in this section between Palomas and San Julio, its on Goldbaum, will come back to it. The water source for Cerro Blanco?

Rancho San Julio right in here somewhere 29°40'01"N 114°55'02"W

Water 29°45'05"N 114°58'22"W

Catarina, S. Catarina on 1922 map and Catavina on Goldbaum. 9°50'50"N 115°01'49"W

La Sierrita 29°52'00"N 115°03'36"W

The whole thing is shown on Goldbaum. Most of what is on that map can now be followed by road. This route is exceptional in that hardly any of it can. Maybe I can get some help filling it in a little bit.


[Edited on 4-16-2023 by Lance S.]


the route you are proposing

route.jpg - 252kB

Lance S. - 4-15-2023 at 07:16 PM

Las Palomas is definitely in the wrong place on your map. Let me check the coordinates I posted.

Lance S. - 4-15-2023 at 07:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Consag explored that region on his third expedition (1751?) but he found no location that made a mission possible.
No ECR documented route. But, who knows for sure beyond those alive at the time?


At San Andres Consag formed two groups from his footman and had one group head east and the other north to Los Ojitos. The group that went east made it to Codornices according to Linck.
Just like the San Ignacio-La Sierrita Route. San Andres was already an important trail junction when Consag arrived.

After 1768 the real focus became the missions of Alta California and people wanted to get between there and Loretto quickly. No reason to stop at San Borja and Santa Maria closed. If I had to put money on it I'd bet the route began getting regular use during the Dominican Period.

[Edited on 4-16-2023 by Lance S.]

[Edited on 8-27-2023 by Lance S.]

Lance S. - 4-15-2023 at 07:42 PM

Harald you may have placed Las Palomas at Codornices.
This is San Jose de Las Palomas, now also named Codornices on modern maps.

29°24'16"N 114°37'09"W


[Edited on 4-16-2023 by Lance S.]

4x4abc - 4-15-2023 at 10:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
Harald you may have placed Las Palomas at Codornices.
This is San Jose de Las Palomas, now also named Codornices on modern maps.

29°24'16"N 114°37'09"W


[Edited on 4-16-2023 by Lance S.]


the line follows the points given by you

I did not name the Codornices point in the image
Las Palomas de San Jose is at the point you provided

I double checked - it's all where you wanted it

how did you get the points?
because some don't match the location where they should be

Lance S. - 4-16-2023 at 08:36 AM

Thank you Harald! That is a good representation of how the route runs on goldbaum. I may have had Palomas in the wrong place. Was using ge coordinates.

Now I'm trying to fill in between Las Palomas and San Julio. Goldbaum makes it look like a straight run but there must be a stop in between.

Lance S. - 4-16-2023 at 08:51 AM

Also it begins at mission San Ignacio, not San Ignacito. That was a typo on my part.

4x4abc - 4-16-2023 at 10:30 AM

San Andres - earliest mention in a map 1884 by S. Voisin

1884.jpg - 270kB

4x4abc - 4-16-2023 at 10:41 AM

San Jose (de las Palomas) here 29° 21.844'N, 114° 44.875'W
new maps show a location close to the ocean

Rancho san Julio (now La Bocana) 29° 40.638'N, 114° 53.556'W

Rancho Santa Catarina 29° 43.306'N, 115° 7.885'W

Lance S. - 4-16-2023 at 12:55 PM

Ok I see the confusion now.

Your Las Palomas coordinates are for Codornices. My coordinates are correct for Las Palomas. There are two Las Palomas on Goldbaum, mine is the northern one. That one is now called Codornices but it is not the same place as the Codornices we usually discuss here.

The old Rancho San Julio was a little up Arroyo San Julio on a side canyon.

Catarina and Santa Catarina are two different places. My coordinates are for an aquaje called Catarina.

Lance S. - 4-16-2023 at 01:04 PM

My Las Palomas is between Codornices and San Julio on Goldbaum. If you follow the trail north from Codornices you first come to Salado then next is Las Palomas.

[Edited on 4-16-2023 by Lance S.]

4x4abc - 4-16-2023 at 01:32 PM

I am lost

Lance S. - 4-16-2023 at 02:03 PM

Sorry it is confusing. Just find Codornices on Goldbaum (Rancho Codornices 29°11'17"N 114°18'32"W). The map shows a trail going north to Salado then Las Palomas.

Lance S. - 4-16-2023 at 04:13 PM

uploading a photo

4x4abc - 4-16-2023 at 04:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
Sorry it is confusing. Just find Codornices on Goldbaum (Rancho Codornices 29°11'17"N 114°18'32"W). The map shows a trail going north to Salado then Las Palomas.


Salado is Laguna Chapala?

Screen Shot 2023-04-16 at 4.13.57 PM copy.jpg - 311kB

Lance S. - 4-16-2023 at 04:25 PM

You know that small lake bed between Chapala and the coast? That is Salado. 29°16'05"N 114°34'34"W .Very salty water when it fills up, you can probably see in past Google earth images. There is a waterhole nearby.

Lance S. - 4-16-2023 at 04:28 PM

Water is at 29°18'01"N 114°34'46"W

4x4abc - 4-16-2023 at 04:31 PM

OK - next

Llano.jpg - 304kB

Lance S. - 4-16-2023 at 04:32 PM

You actually have the route between Codornices and Salado marked .


[Edited on 4-17-2023 by Lance S.]

Lance S. - 4-16-2023 at 04:41 PM



Salado

[Edited on 4-16-2023 by Lance S.]

4x4abc - 4-16-2023 at 04:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
Water is at 29°18'01"N 114°34'46"W


you are right - I found animal trails that support that idea
but the spring is not on the travel route

Lance S. - 4-16-2023 at 04:49 PM

Las Palomas (now called Codornices)

upload image to link

You can make out the route from the water to there. Easiest if you work back from Palomas.

[Edited on 4-16-2023 by Lance S.]

4x4abc - 4-16-2023 at 04:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
You actually have the route between Codornices and Salado marked . Now fill in the part to Las Palomas.


I can only fill in what I see on the sat images

I have some promising traces between Rancho El Sauce and Laguna El Caporal
but nothing from Salado to El Caporal - all trails there are radiating out from Laguna Chapala

traces.jpg - 270kB

4x4abc - 4-16-2023 at 04:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
You know that small lake bed between Chapala and the coast? That is Salado. 29°16'05"N 114°34'34"W .Very salty water when it fills up, you can probably see in past Google earth images. There is a waterhole nearby.


Laguna El Caporal

Lance S. - 4-16-2023 at 05:02 PM

Thank you! Was wondering if it even had a modern name.

4x4abc - 4-16-2023 at 05:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
Las Palomas (now called Codornices)

upload image to link

You can make out the route from the water to there. Easiest if you work back from Palomas.

[Edited on 4-16-2023 by Lance S.]


so we have 2 Codornices now?
that'll be confusing!

Lance S. - 4-16-2023 at 05:14 PM

Yup! That was already part of the confusion I think.:)

David K - 4-16-2023 at 06:31 PM

Guys, I have been standing back hoping to see some perfecting of the map Harald put out... I hope you don't give up!

We are certain of where Codornices is and were Agua Leon is.

Also, I am exchanging data with the Arce clan, one branch is the family owns that ranch and it has been there over 100 years.

Salomé Arce Villavicencio (daughter of Marcelino Arce & Cleofas Villavicencio), was born there. She was Eliodoro's (the prospector we have been talking about) aunt. Salomé married Jesús Zúñiga. Her grandchildren are adults on the Internet today.
The land remains in the hands of that family today.

Los Codornices and San Antonio are the same place, even the family uses both names (I will try and find out that story). 'geoffff' was there as well. Just an adobe ruin by a giant eucalyptus tree: 29.1959, -114.3170

[Edited on 4-17-2023 by David K]

PaulW - 4-17-2023 at 08:18 AM

Looking for Codornices on the San Antonio route:
Yes “Los Codornices and San Antonio are the same place.”
According to the Almanac they are in the same place. The new Atlas shows just San Antonio.
The Almanac shows a Codornices further west on the San Antonio route and the new Atlas calls that place Los Palomas.
Look at 29 1.617, -114 32.137 just see a blur with a bunch of roads, but a couple of building a bit north.
The largest ranch with unknown name along that route is at 20 8.767, -114 20.619
Google Earth shows Codornices as an area at 29 8.767, -114 21.155. It is along a major wash.

4x4abc - 4-17-2023 at 08:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by PaulW  
Looking for Codornices on the San Antonio route:
Yes “Los Codornices and San Antonio are the same place.”
According to the Almanac they are in the same place. The new Atlas shows just San Antonio.
The Almanac shows a Codornices further west on the San Antonio route and the new Atlas calls that place Los Palomas.
Look at 29 1.617, -114 32.137 just see a blur with a bunch of roads, but a couple of building a bit north.
The largest ranch with unknown name along that route is at 20 8.767, -114 20.619
Google Earth shows Codornices as an area at 29 8.767, -114 21.155. It is along a major wash.


lotsa Codornices - lotsa Las Palomas in the area
H11D49

29 8.767, -114 21.155 is Arroyo Cordonices

Screen Shot 2023-04-17 at 8.25.54 AM.png - 294kB

David K - 4-17-2023 at 11:39 AM

Palomas=Doves
Codornices=Quail

Anyone can put a name on the map but if you talk to the people who own or live at these places, you may learn more.

My connections with the Arce clan keeps growing and I am editing the Eliodoro Arce family tree almost daily. They are very open to sharing the family history and that gives us history and map fans a great insight to these places. I will ask them about these places... soon. Still working on translating their messages and applying the data into the family tree. It is all under construction so if you don't mind a rough look, go to the bottom of the Eliodoro page. www.vivabaja.com/eliodoro

Here is what I have (so far) on the family who owns Rancho (Los) Codornices/ San Antonio:

Salomé Arce Villavicencio [Los Codornices/ San Antonio]; Primitivo's sister hermana/ Eliodoro's aunt tía) & Jesús Zúñiga >> Chacha Margarita, Celia Nelo, José María, Teodora ('Toña') Zúñiga Arce & Pilar Cota >> t-1) María Cota Zúñiga & Manuel Ruelas >> Manuel Ruelas Cota. t-2) Teodoro Estrada Zúñiga.



4x4abc - 4-17-2023 at 11:55 AM

whenever a new topic comes up I use the opportunity to re-visit the area
do some updates if needed (lotsa new roads over the last few years!)

connected to this topic I found a new airstrip in the middle of nowhere
some new roads around it
maybe mining
29° 10.322'N, 114° 30.011'W

David K - 4-17-2023 at 12:18 PM

That's just up the arroyo from La Miseria (now abandoned and roofless) where you can still see the two hot tubs.

4x4abc - 4-17-2023 at 03:24 PM

2 new airstrips at Laguna La Guija 29° 24.519'N, 114° 29.460'W
29° 23.666'N, 114° 29.418'W

David K - 4-17-2023 at 03:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
2 new airstrips at Laguna La Guija 29° 24.519'N, 114° 29.460'W
29° 23.666'N, 114° 29.418'W


That first one has already been ditched by the army.

Are we not getting a bit off topic with gps waypoints for drug-runner runways? :lol:

Seriously Harald, a thread just on your drug runway discoveries would be huge!

Lance S. - 4-17-2023 at 10:37 PM



The next stop on Goldbaum after Las Palomas is San Jose. That is another San Jose de Las Palomas. Apparently the newer location of the same ranch.
The next section of the map, San Jose to San Julio, is now followed by a road so I guess the question is which locations on the road have water near the surface and which have deeper drilled wells.


[Edited on 4-18-2023 by Lance S.]

Fun with Maps!

David K - 4-18-2023 at 07:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  


Notice the names on Goldbaum's map (top to bottom): C Blanco, Onyx (and to the right, part of Pedregoso), San Jose, Las Palomas.
On the Gulick map, below: Cerro Blanco (Onyx), El Pedregoso, San José, Las Palomas (at the bottom).



Above is the 1962 Howard Gulick/ Lower California Guidebook Map, which was researched from 1958 to 1961... and as Harald stated, they are the first accurate road maps of Baja. His previous two guidebook editions (1956 & 1958) did not include the roads to the Pacific (Seven Sisters) Coast.

At roughly the same area as the Gulick map above:

4x4abc - 4-18-2023 at 09:11 AM

those early 1900's maps are very frustrating

they seem to be based on hearsay and not so much on survey
many names are out of place

looking at satellite data with passable valleys, visible trails and known water sources, completely different routes emerge than what the maps suggest


David K - 4-18-2023 at 04:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
those early 1900's maps are very frustrating

they seem to be based on hearsay and not so much on survey
many names are out of place

looking at satellite data with passable valleys, visible trails and known water sources, completely different routes emerge than what the maps suggest




Why I included the Gulick map, as it is very close to accurate, and the nearest such map to when Goldbaum drew his in 1918. It would surprise me if the 1971 geology map, 10 years after Gulick's research wasn't accurate as well... and it includes Leon Grande, too.

Lance S. - 4-18-2023 at 06:24 PM

Next section of the map, San Julio to La Sierrita.

Lance S. - 4-18-2023 at 06:28 PM

To help understand this section of the map, the location below is that hill just above Rancho San Julio. Ignore Jaraguay, it is in the wrong place as will be explained.





[Edited on 4-19-2023 by Lance S.]

David K - 4-18-2023 at 06:45 PM

Someone said San Julio was today's Rancho La Bocana.
What say you?

Lance S. - 4-18-2023 at 06:54 PM

Rancho San Julio was in that side canyon just below the ecotourism place



[Edited on 4-19-2023 by Lance S.]

4x4abc - 4-18-2023 at 07:37 PM

here are the names off the Goldbaum map put on the location with a matching name

major mixup with the points along the coast and the Arroyos

gato.jpg - 276kB

Lance S. - 4-18-2023 at 07:44 PM

Do you have mina Luciana?

4x4abc - 4-18-2023 at 07:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
Do you have mina Luciana?


it is north of the image:
29° 42.336'N, 115° 0.853'W

Lance S. - 4-18-2023 at 08:09 PM

Nice, thank you





[Edited on 4-19-2023 by Lance S.]

Lance S. - 4-18-2023 at 08:31 PM

Mentally erase Arroyo Jaraguay from the Goldbaum map when comparing the two images above. It is surprisingly accurate.
Do you see it? Goldbaum doesn't say Catavina, it says Catarina.



[Edited on 4-19-2023 by Lance S.]

4x4abc - 4-18-2023 at 09:32 PM

one more time

salorio.jpg - 277kB

Lance S. - 4-18-2023 at 09:41 PM

Arroyos Jaraguay and Jaraguacito are shown on Goldbaum. Las Palmas is on Arroyo Jaraguay. They are shown flowing into Arroyo San Julio instead of Arroyo Cuervitas.

Las Palmas

Lance S. - 4-18-2023 at 09:51 PM

Jaraguacito



[Edited on 4-19-2023 by Lance S.]

My Facebook chat with Juan, owner of Rancho Las Palomas, if you have questions for him.

David K - 4-19-2023 at 07:23 AM

This exchange may be of interest to Nomads that recall my April 2017 trip to this area. This was following the photos I posted of the adobe at Codornices (San Antonio) from 'geoffff' [Juan's words are auto-translated to English]:

Juan Carlos Aviña Ornelas:
In those conditions I met that ranch in 1970.
Eventually I pass through the ruins of that ranch today.
I am an ejidatarian of San Jose de las Palomas and one of the access routes to the ejido where I belong is this.

David Kier:
Juan Carlos Aviña Ornelas, It is great to hear from you. I am currently talking with the Arce/ Torres (Rancho San Luis) family who are related to Teodoro Estrada Zúñiga of this ranch (Codornices).

Juan Carlos Aviña Ornelas:
David Kier, Thank you very much for the attention.
I am the owner of RANCHO LAS PALOMAS, in ejido San Jose de las Palomas, about 30 kilometers west of Rancho Codornices.
Kind regards.

David Kier:
Juan Carlos Aviña Ornelas, Do you know what happened with Rancho La Miseria, near you? I 'rescued' Leo and Lorena Durazo, who flagged me down for help, and ended up driving them both south to Santa Rosalillita and then to Punta Prieta. Lorena told me they had been abandoned and unpaid by the ranch owner and were in need of food and medicine for Leo's bad heart condition. What a night, driving all in the dark!

This was my satellite text message to Antonio Muñoz of the Baja Cactus Motel and Pemex, in El Rosario: Apr 23, 2017 6:02 PM:
Hola Antonio, tengo emergencia with the couple at Rancho Miseria de Candelario. Their truck broke miles away. They need heart meds and food [abandoned here for] 2 months. … Señor Candelario Aguire Arce is the owner. He has taxis in Rosarito. … They have no food or medicine. … Can you get ahold of him to bring help to his employees stuck here? On the San Antonio road, east of Bahia Blanco. … Leo y Lorena Durazo.

Juan Carlos Aviña Ornelas:
David Kier, I have knowledge that LEO already died and LORENA back to Tijuana with her family.
The Ranch of Misery is the same, it's still abandoned and vandalized.
One of the causes was the exceptional Drought affecting our state.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you guys want me to ask Juan any questions about his Rancho Las Palomas or the Ejido de San José de las Palomas, let me know!

Lance S. - 4-19-2023 at 08:29 AM

If you talk to the family who owns San Antonio again I an curious if they know who Tinaja Ortiz is named after.

4x4abc - 4-19-2023 at 10:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
Jaraguacito



[Edited on 4-19-2023 by Lance S.]


how did you get the locations for Las Palmas and Jaraguaycito?

David K - 4-19-2023 at 01:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
If you talk to the family who owns San Antonio again I an curious if they know who Tinaja Ortiz is named after.


San Antonio/ Los Codornices, yes... I am chatting with them almost daily as I am working on the family tree of Eliodoro Arce. Just added dozens more names!
How far is Tinaja Ortiz from the adobe at Codornices/ San Antonio?

PaulW - 4-19-2023 at 01:56 PM

Can you pin point where they live. I noticed a well traveled road looping just south of San Antonio ruins?
No roads visible on GE.

David K - 4-19-2023 at 02:17 PM

Well, nobody lives at the adobe or nearby... a ranch house is a couple miles east, just south of the road, but it looked abandoned when I went by. Not sure geoffff commented on it? Then, just off the road that comes south from Km. 252, is a ranch.

I will ask where they live, currently chatting with Gardenia Cota (daughter of the owner, José Cota Zúñiga & Dolores Gaxiola Arce) and with (via his cousin) Teodoro Estrada Zúñiga (son of Salvador Estrada & Antonia (Toña) Zúñiga Arce).

This Arce family, connected with Eliodoro is huge!

4x4abc - 4-19-2023 at 06:25 PM

revisiting the area I found a new road
so much to find in Baja!

4x4abc - 4-19-2023 at 06:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
If you talk to the family who owns San Antonio again I an curious if they know who Tinaja Ortiz is named after.


Cañada Tinaje de Ortiz is well known - but where is the Tinaja de Ortiz?

Lance S. - 4-20-2023 at 01:27 PM

Think it's right about here. That's just based on looking at different image dates years ago. It is not in the arroyo labeled on Google Earth so either I had the wrong location or Google Earth does.



[Edited on 4-21-2023 by Lance S.]

Lance S. - 4-20-2023 at 02:43 PM

Another question about old Rancho San Antonio. According to Nelson 1905, the 1927 map, and the Goldbaum map the last section of road down the peninsula to be filled in was the stretch between El Marmol and Punta Prieta Sometime between 1905 and 1927. Does San Antonio predate or postdate that?


[Edited on 4-21-2023 by Lance S.]

[Edited on 4-21-2023 by Lance S.]

Lance S. - 4-20-2023 at 08:01 PM

Catarina


upload images for free


Lance S. - 4-20-2023 at 08:07 PM

The top Catavina on this map is Catarina. Above Los Cerritos.



Los Cerritos

post pics

David K - 4-20-2023 at 08:15 PM

Wonderful maps, such a good job showing the places you want us to examine.
I will spend more time on them tomorrow.
San Antonio/ Codornices is older than 1905, yes.
I have asked the family those two questions from yesterday. Awaiting an answer.

4x4abc - 4-20-2023 at 09:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
Catarina


Great job!
Now I have names

David K - 4-21-2023 at 07:48 AM

This archaeology paper on petroglyphs, names La Sierrita and San Julio (as well as the San Fernando site)... Maybe you have already mentioned it here, but it was in my email this morning so I wanted to grab it and share here, before I got distracted on a new project!

https://www.academia.edu/27626752/G_Engerrand_s_New_Petrogly...

4x4abc - 4-21-2023 at 10:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
This archaeology paper on petroglyphs, names La Sierrita and San Julio (as well as the San Fernando site)... Maybe you have already mentioned it here, but it was in my email this morning so I wanted to grab it and share here, before I got distracted on a new project!

https://www.academia.edu/27626752/G_Engerrand_s_New_Petrogly...


the image of Aguaje La Sierrita (Figure 8.) indicates that it is downstream of Rancho San Julio in Arroyo San Julio.

Lance S. - 4-22-2023 at 09:37 PM

San Julio Location

https://www.elvigia.net/general/2016/9/11/bocana-rancho-geot...

Llegamos hasta el pequeño valle, en medio de un cañón por donde corre el arroyo de San Julio, el cual llevaba algo de agua gracias a la lluvia del día anterior. Ahí observamos vestigios de un antiguo rancho, posiblemente del siglo XIX.

"Actualmente se desconoce quiénes habitaron dicho rancho y cuál era su nombre. Entre los vestigios destacan dos círculos hechos con piedras muy bien acomodadas, a ras del suelo. No se sabe muy bien en qué los utilizaban, pero al parecer eran para la separación de granos. También hay una cerca de piedra, así como algunos restos de una acequia."

The Devils Road shows one of the circles at 27:00 but they attribute them to the Cochimi.
https://youtu.be/Jueqf0gXODw

4x4abc - 4-22-2023 at 10:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
Think it's right about here. That's just based on looking at different image dates years ago. It is not in the arroyo labeled on Google Earth so either I had the wrong location or Google Earth does.



[Edited on 4-21-2023 by Lance S.]


now this is exciting!
with that location I was able to trace the entire trail from Codornices to Llano Las Palomas
not easy - but discoverable

Lance S. - 4-23-2023 at 12:25 PM

That is interesting, can we see the route?
Does the route give any indication of the location of Tinaja el Caporal?


[Edited on 4-23-2023 by Lance S.]

4x4abc - 4-23-2023 at 06:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
That is interesting, can we see the route?
Does the route give any indication of the location of Tinaja el Caporal?


[Edited on 4-23-2023 by Lance S.]


rough outline - details later

Ortiz.jpg - 289kB

4x4abc - 4-23-2023 at 09:23 PM

got a position for Tinaja el Caporal??

Lance S. - 4-24-2023 at 07:32 AM

I haven't been able to find it, was hoping maybe there was a track or something that might give a clue.



[Edited on 4-24-2023 by Lance S.]

4x4abc - 4-24-2023 at 09:31 AM

I have 3 prospects for a Tinaja in the Arroyo (white marker)
and a number of indicators for a trail

Caporal.jpg - 319kB

4x4abc - 4-24-2023 at 02:23 PM

I have been busy tracing old trails in the area

each square is a spot that looks like it could be part of a trail

tracking.jpg - 264kB

David K - 4-24-2023 at 03:32 PM

Great stuff!
Can you overlay your lines and squares on a map too? INEGI, Baja Almanac, or Benchmark Baja Atlas?

4x4abc - 4-24-2023 at 05:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Great stuff!
Can you overlay your lines and squares on a map too? INEGI, Baja Almanac, or Benchmark Baja Atlas?


don't know - will have to to try it out

bajaric - 6-6-2023 at 08:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
San Andres - earliest mention in a map 1884 by S. Voisin



San Andres is an interesting place. I keep seeing it pop up on various old maps going all the way back to the 1880's as Harald pointed out. It looks like it is in a wide arroyo with a water source a little east of Santa Rosalillita. One GPS coordinate on this thread put it here: 28°47'04"N 114°10'03"W

On google earth you can see a structure in the bottom of the arroyo a little north of that point. Gerhard and Gulik described San Andres as "an old cattle ranch, uninhabited in 1961". After that it disappeared off the maps.

What makes San Andres interesting is that it seems to be outside of the mission system, a very early private enterprise in the central desert of Baja.

In the 1800's San Andreas may have been a rancho where cattle were raised for their hides and sold to seagoing traders. This was a common practice in Alta California prior to 1849 as described in the book Seven Years Before the Mast. Ensenada as well was a "hide rancho" during the period.

Or, San Andres may have just been a water hole, and that is why it is shown on so many maps.

Around 1905 there was a wagon road that went from the landing at Santa Rosalia (aka Santa Rosalillita) to Punta Prieta to supply the mines in the Sierra Columbia. This wagon road passed by San Andres. It would have been an important source of water and perhaps also beef for the small mining community at Punta Prieta. You can still trace the wagon road south from Punta Prieta to San Andreas and beyond to Santa Rosalillita. It is a different route than the modern paved road.

edited for spelling.
also, the Baja California Almanac shows a "San Andres" 2 miles inland from Puerto San Andres, north of Santa Rosalillita (I hate spelling that!) but this is a different location than shown on Gerhard and Gulik's map, which shows San Andreas as 8 miles inland. The more inland location is probably the original San Andres, a place that has been known to travelers since the 1750's, way back in the missionary days.



[Edited on 6-6-2023 by bajaric]

4x4abc - 6-6-2023 at 11:57 AM

can't miss San Andres!

Puerto San Andres
Sierra San Andres
Arroyo San Andres
Cañon San Andres
Rancho San Andres
Cerro San Andres
Rancho Bachandres

all within a 5 mile radius

mtgoat666 - 6-6-2023 at 12:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
can't miss San Andres!

Puerto San Andres
Sierra San Andres
Arroyo San Andres
Cañon San Andres
Rancho San Andres
Cerro San Andres
Rancho Bachandres

all within a 5 mile radius


It seems like they are fond of saint andrew. saint andrew was greek, perhaps the area was settled by greeks? :lol:

4x4abc - 6-6-2023 at 08:45 PM

this German 1868 map mentions San Andres first

1868.jpg - 224kB

David K - 6-7-2023 at 08:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
this German 1868 map mentions San Andres first



Would you please email the full map to me?

Lance S. - 6-7-2023 at 09:59 AM

https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/33415/map-of-lower-c...

mtgoat666 - 6-7-2023 at 11:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/33415/map-of-lower-c...


The Lower California Company - an example proving that yankee imperialism was sometimes not successful or prosperous :lol::lol:

David K - 6-7-2023 at 12:01 PM

Thanks Lance, unfortunately, this is one map that Barry doesn't show in the highest resolution. Names blur when you zoom in. Not so in most of his maps, like this one of Pichilingue, near La Paz, in the early 1900s. Zoom in on the U.S. Coaling station fo detail: https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/71918/pichilinque-ha...

Lance S. - 6-7-2023 at 03:25 PM

From J.D. Hawks 1849.

We halted , at 11 o'clock , at a small salt - marsh , where we could pick up crystals of beautiful salt , and our shoes and clothing were incrusted with it . There is a fresh water stream that makes through or rises in the valley or marsh . The water is good , has a slight smell of sulphur , but is cool and clear , with but a little brackish taste . This is called San Andres , and was once occupied by an American named Gilbert , but who has abandoned it .

Lance S. - 6-7-2023 at 05:05 PM

North 1905

The darkness became less intense after midnight , and in order to make the journey as easy as possible for the stock by traveling in the cool early morning hours , we broke camp at 2 a . m . and continued down the trail . After traveling about 10 miles we reached Punta Prieta , a deserted cattle ranch . This place had been occupied within a few weeks and we were glad to find a well about 40 feet deep with a bucket and rope , so we were able to water our stock . Thence we continued about 10 miles farther down the trail to San Andres Ranch , at the ex- treme lower end of the valley . Here the hills on both sides shut in and reduce the valley to a narrow point from which a short canyon leads through the coast hills to the shore of Playa Maria Bay . About a mile of the lower end of the valley bad been extensively improved and the ruins of well - made houses , machinery , good wells , irrigation ditches , and old fields showed that a large amount of money had been spent here , but the project had evidently been a com- plete failure and from the ruined condition of the improvements it was plain the place had been abandoned for many years . I have since learned that this establishment belonged to an English corporation ( Henry Louis & Co. ) , which was operating here in 1887 with the object of making paper from the datilillo or yucca ( Yucca valida ) , which abounds throughout this region.¹ At the extreme lower end of the valley water lies near enough the surface to make some wet meadows and to fill a small pond . The green flats and large mesquites gave a welcome change from the desert country we had traversed , and a short stop was made here to rest the stock . An ocotillo we had not seen before ( Fouquieria peninsularis ) grew in the valley above San Andres and Idria columnaris was abundant in the valley just above the ranch . Harris's hawk , Scott's oriole , and the black - chinned sparrow ( Spizella atrogularis ) , were common here . A dozen or more Harris's hawks , a species which had not been seen since we left Ensenada , gathered every day at sunset to roost in the tall cirios near the ranch

Lance S. - 6-7-2023 at 05:29 PM

Itinerarios y Derroteros 1865 (google translate)

San Andres: The road continues on flat land for the most part and after passing through another small water (Santo Domingo) we reach San Andres over the same somewhat wrinkled terrain where there is water and grass, a lot of mesquite, and there was Rancho San Borja. It is distant from Rosarito Six Leagues.

[Edited on 6-8-2023 by Lance S.]

Lance S. - 6-7-2023 at 06:50 PM

Just noticed that on Goldbaum there is a trail headed north west from San Andres that runs between the Sierra San Andres and the Sierra Columbia. Just like the road today. So Goldbaum actually has it in the same place as the Baja Almanac. The site nearer the ocean.




[Edited on 6-8-2023 by Lance S.]

[Edited on 1-4-2024 by Lance S.]

Lance S. - 6-7-2023 at 07:05 PM

Speaking of the Sierra San Andres.

https://www.academia.edu/35589037/Surfing_the_Waves_of_Small...

bajaric - 6-8-2023 at 08:53 AM

Interesting! Everything you never knew you needed to know about San Andres. Turns out there WAS some private enterprise there in the 1880's, not herding cattle, but herding yuccas. San Andres was undoubtably an important water source used by early travelers in this area, from Consag in 1751 all the way to the days of the "49rs" two centuries later. There was probably also a substantial indigenous population centered there who periodically went over to the coast to feast on shellfish. oops now the secret is out, pretty soon the surfers will show up and start the looting.

David K - 6-8-2023 at 09:10 AM

There also was a potential coal mine near San Andres, or so says a report in 1891. See pages 159-160 of Modest Fortunes ©1992 (#51 of the Dawson Book series).
Reported to be within three miles of the coast, at San Andres. The coal was described as "coarse sulphur-colored sandstone with plenty of shale. We tested some of the coal, which burned freely and left a clean white ash".

Lance S. - 4-13-2024 at 12:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
You actually have the route between Codornices and Salado marked . Now fill in the part to Las Palomas.


I can only fill in what I see on the sat images

I have some promising traces between Rancho El Sauce and Laguna El Caporal
but nothing from Salado to El Caporal - all trails there are radiating out from Laguna Chapala



Been working on marking this all out. Here is the stretch from Codornices to Las
Palomas as shown on Goldbaum.


[Edited on 4-13-2024 by Lance S.]

Lance S. - 4-13-2024 at 12:44 PM



upload image to url

David K - 4-13-2024 at 05:17 PM

Hi Lance! :bounce:
Nice to have a fun map project to explain history by.

4x4abc - 4-13-2024 at 06:18 PM

Lance,

could you give us the GPS for the locations you put into Google Erath?

Lance S. - 4-14-2024 at 12:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Lance,

could you give us the GPS for the locations you put into Google Erath?


Still same coordinates as my first post on this thread but with a couple of speculative place names and Cerrito Blanco added.

The water between Codornices and Salado is next to Pico El Sauz. Aquaje El Sauz?

The water between San Julio and Catarina is near Cerro Las Casitas, maybe the water source is also called Las Casitas.
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