BajaNomad - San Ignacio - La Sierrita Route

Ric, do you have San Ignacio to San Andres marked out on Google Earth?

Hi Lance, no have not plotted that. Reading the source you posted (in Spanish) it is pretty detailed describing the route: San Ignacio / San Angel /Ojo de Libre / Toro / Rosarito / San Andres, as best I can determine with my limited Spanish. He noted that Ojo de Libre had been visited by travelers during the gold rush. From San Andreas north to La Sierrita there is no description of the trail other than it was seldom used because of the lack of water and difficult terrain.

I'm still working on Leon Grande location. I went back and looked at "Long Road to Mulege" by Hale. He described Leon Grande as 10 kilometers "mas o menos" south of Agua Leon.

Lance S. - 4-17-2024 at 07:23 PM

It says the coastal arm between San Andres and La Sierrita is bad and seldom used but that the inland arm passes over " buen torreno".

There are some places missing from the description of the route between San Ignacio and San Andres, I will have to look and try to fill it in sometime.

[Edited on 4-18-2024 by Lance S.]

Ojo de Liebre in 1953 by Howard Gulick

David K - 4-18-2024 at 08:13 AM

In 1961, Howard returned...

4x4abc - 4-20-2024 at 11:59 AM

putting a pin into Google Earth for a possible historic location is exciting
lotsa thinking, reading, comparing, speculating before you feel safe to do so

I have been focussing on something else the last 10 years
finding and recording possible trails between those locations

if a trail has been used by animals before humans used it and animals continued to use it when the humans found easier paths then it is kinda easy

but when humans blazed fresh trails they are very difficult to find after 100 years of non use.

so far I have only faint hints between Leon Grande and Codornices
it looks like the route through Punta Prieta and Agua Leon was preferred
lotsa trails

[Edited on 4-20-2024 by 4x4abc]

Lance S. - 4-20-2024 at 04:30 PM

Absolutely. Here is my thinking on this.

I only wanted to include places where water would have been available before drilling deep wells became feasible (apart from the newer San Jose since it is next to the original). Notice I didn't include Punta Prieta. Seems like a long distance to go between San Andres and Agua Leon without water but maybe it still would have been preferred due to the terrain.

There could have been a branch of the inland arm of the Sierrita route that went Agua Leon - Pozo Chapala - El Gato - Jaraguacito - Las Palmas - San Julio - Las Casitas(?) - Catarina - La Sierrita. That would be consistent with the "main trail" North described a little before reaching Rinconada.

I would love to see the trails you have found.

[Edited on 4-21-2024 by Lance S.]

[Edited on 4-21-2024 by Lance S.]

mtgoat666 - 4-20-2024 at 05:06 PM

You guys are shooting in the dark relying on google earth and old maps by foreign passers by.
Go interview the locals. They know the history, the stories of the old places.
The ranchers know where the old ruins are that are not visible on GE nor traveled by tourists on motorcycles.
The ranchers know where the former springs are that are now dry due to wells lowering the water table.

[Edited on 4-21-2024 by mtgoat666]

Lance S. - 4-20-2024 at 05:25 PM

Something not discussed as much is the availability of pasture, especially in a desert environment. Available pasture would be used up on frequently traveled routes like the ECR, perhaps one incentive to use the La Sierrita route at times.

There is a hybrid ECR - La Sierrita route described in the entry for Yubay in Itinererios y Deroteros.

[Edited on 4-21-2024 by Lance S.]

4x4abc - 4-20-2024 at 07:17 PM

You guys are shooting in the dark relying on google earth and old maps by foreign passers by.
Go interview the locals. They know the history, the stories of the old places.
The ranchers know where the old ruins are that are not visible on GE nor traveled by tourists on motorcycles.
The ranchers know where the former springs are that are now dry due to wells lowering the water table.

[Edited on 4-21-2024 by mtgoat666]

there are no ranchos in the area where you could ask anyone
besides - I found the locals the most unreliable source for infomation when it comes to historical stuff
they know the water sources and their trails
but they could not tell you with certainty whether these trails are ECR or late 1800's mining trails.

locals are very eager to please you - they will tell you anything you want to hear about ECR
of course there are exceptions - there are some very knowledgeable locals in Baja
Edie Littlefield was lucky - she found all the good ones as guides.

in areas where there are no locals Google Earth is a superb tool to locate almost any trail
especially with the recent new, super detailed images.

David K - 4-21-2024 at 08:23 AM

Spot on... local ranchers do know their land very well, but not always the true history. They came to Baja for work, to farm, to ranch. They do not have need for accurate history of the Jesuits or other missionaries, but only to repeat stories told to them. Other than a some miners, south of La Paz, most people from Mexico didn't come to the peninsula until the 1800s. Just the padres, craftsmen, and Spanish soldiers.

bajaric - 4-24-2024 at 08:29 AM

There is not much grass in that area...

Anyway, back to Leon Grande, the water hole. I looked at some of the old maps that show Leon Grande. Goldbaum's map is typical:

golbaum leon grand jpg.jpg - 232kB

The scale of this map is not accurate. However, it clearly shows Leon Grande as a bit north of latitude 29 degrees but south of the upper part of a big arroyo that flows past Punta Prieta. To the north this arroyo forks into two main drainages on either side of some hills. It is apparent that these hills are called Mesas el Leoncito. The mesas are a prominent feature that can be seen on Google Earth. Leon Grande is shown as south of the upper part of the arroyo that flows along the south side of the mesas.

More information is in the book "Long walk to Mulege" by Hale. On their walk south from Chapala they came upon a road that went towards the gulf. Following this road they came to an abandoned ranch with a windmill. This was probably El Crucero. From that location they walked southwest, passing Agua Leon. Walking south from the general area of Agua Leon they followed a shallow arroyo south. When the arroyo turned to the east they continued south and arrived at Leon Grande, a spring where water came from the side of a cliff.

The next day they continued south, following a burro trail, until they arrived at a graded "road to nowhere" that terminated in the middle of the desert. This road went to Punta Prieta.

This walk from Leon Grande to Punta Prieta gives an approximate distance from Punta Prieta to Leon Grande, as it was about as far as Hale and his companion could walk in one day. And those boys could walk! "On our second day out of Ensenada we arrived at Santo Tomas". That is about 24 miles in two days of walking, or 12 miles a day.

So will all of this information put together I looked at Google Earth to try and find the place.

This is what I came up with. The yellow lines show a faint trail southwest from Agua Leon that passes to the west of Mesas el Leoncitio. The trail arrives at a shallow arroyo that flows south and then turns east. A couple of miles south of the point where the arroyo turns east another trail coming in from the west terminates at the coordinates on the map. 29 3'40.34"N -114 17'11.69"W I think this is Leon Grande.

From there the trail goes west, then south towards Punta Prieta until it arrives at Highway 1. This is probably where Hale encountered the end of the "road to nowhere"; the initial construction of a graded road that eventually went north from Punta Prieta to El Crucero. The road was completed by about 1925 and the trail past Leon Grande was abandoned.
The point where I think the trail south from Leon Grande ran into the "road to nowhere" is shown by the end of the yellow line south of the pin marked 29 degrees latitude. This is at Hwy 1 (not shown) which is what the road to nowhere eventually became.

The coordinates for Leon Grande came from Harald, who spotted a water source at that location. Unfortunately, on Google Earth not much can be seen there. No water, no buildings, just what looks like it could be a water hole in an arroyo and maybe some cleared areas. Perhaps the spring dried up.

So, in the end, the location of Leon Grande, the spring, remains a bit of a mystery. I am pretty confident, however, that based on all of the available information it was probably at or near the location shown by the coordinates on the map: 29 3'40.34"N -114 17'11.69"W

Two other locations shown on the map are Mina Leon Grande and Mina La Venada. La Venada is a modern mine with a modern road to it. Unless Leon Grande, the water hole, happened to be at the exact same spot as a gold mine, it is unlikely that this is Leon Grande. Mina Leon Grande is shown on a geological map from 1971 but appears to be a mine, not a water hole. No trails can be seen going to Mina Leon Grande, indicating that it was not a spring that was on a well-known trail.

For scale, the distance between the BOLA junction and Punta Prieta is 6.8 miles.

Leon Grande re surroundings.jpg - 269kB

David K - 4-24-2024 at 09:19 AM

Great work!

I recall Leon Grande as being mainly a mine site and not a waterhole (which was Agua Leon, that our own 'geoffff' visited on his last Baja trip).
Goldman shows Mina Leon Grande and Oro nearby. The Long Walk book is great fun to read, indeed.

The 1930 Edward Knight map has all these places... but still suffers with some odd inaccuracies: https://octopup.org/img/media/maps/baja/1930--Baja--Lower-Ca...

Hopefully, 4x4abc (Harald) and others will chime in... and at some point, I will open my files on this mystery, again! I have been working on the 1684 Atondo-Kino route and just finished the latest version of details and maps.

Looking at your waypoint in the satellite layer, I don't see any indication of a mine or road.

[Edited on 4-24-2024 by David K]

Lance S. - 4-24-2024 at 03:07 PM

This is still my guess for the Leon Grande mine 29°01'34"N 114°15'10"W.

The coordinates I gave on the route were for the water source for the mine. Haralds coordinates for Manantial Leon Grande are another good candidate for the water.

David K - 4-24-2024 at 04:04 PM

Is the La Venada Mine my original guess for Leon Grande? It appears so.. at the northern end of the road from Punta Prieta... the road Hale & company walked on in the 1920s.

Maybe the two were mine names are confused since Leon Grande was a big enough deal to appear on so many maps and books and La Venada not at all?

There really should be a debris field at Leon Grande or tailings. Don't you think so?

bajaric - 4-25-2024 at 08:56 PM

What I have been searching for is the water source described by Hale that was called Leon Grande. He described it as 15 kilometers "mas o menos" south of Agua Leon. (I think I made a mistake in another thread and said 10 kilometers). That puts it right at the place that I think is Leon Grande shown by the coordinates on my Google Earth map above.

The road from La Venada to Punta Prieta does not match Hale's description of the trail from Leon Grande to Punta Prieta. However, the trail from the place that I think is Leon Grande matches his description almost exactly. You have really squint but there is a clear trail that starts just east of the coordinates and goes all the way to Highway 1 between Punta Prieta and the BOLA junction. Part of the trail is shown on the Benchmark Atlas, starting at Hwy 1 at Km 7.5 at a place on the highway called El Norteno. I'm pretty sure this is the trail that Hale followed from Leon Grande to Punta Prieta.

Anyways, I spent a lot of time on this, think that is enough for now. Someday may go out there and search around in person. Good excuse to go out to the desert and more fun than sitting in front of a computer.

Here is Hale's description of the trail from Leon Grande to Punta Prieta:

"after we had taken a bath in cold clear water from the spring at Leon Grande.

Heading south toward Punta Prieta we followed a well defined trail across a wide plain, then over a low ridge, across a second plain to another ridge. After crossing the second plain or what might be called a valley, we had covered that day a distance of about fifteen kilometers of monotonous landscape. But, beyond the second ridge, we saw before us a stretch of wagon road that extended in a continuous straight line for as far as we could see.

We recognized it as an accomplishment of competent surveyors, or perhaps navigators, and well directed labor.

"A road to nowhere" commented Dinty, as he looked in marked astonishment.

"Quite so," I agreed. "It's an unfinished path to the end of someone's imaginary rainbow."

In a more serious vein, we spoke of the road as a project ahead of its times or else the possible beginning of a new order of things in the erstwhile neglected peninsula. In any case it was, to Irving and me, a roadway unlike anything we had seen before in Baja and the meandering pathways we had followed, or tried to follow, for a hundred kilometers or more. It was also an indication that Punta Prieta was not very far ahead, and I was particularly anxious to get there....

Some distance farther on, we came to the bank of a dry arroyo where the newly cleared roadway came to an end. The windmill was nearby on the opposite side bank which afforded an opportunity to give the burros a drink before approaching the most promising looking house in the scraggly settlement."

The straight graded wagon road was of course the early incarnation of Hwy. 1, between EL Norteno and Punta Prieta.

4x4abc - 4-26-2024 at 12:00 AM

this are the trails/roads clearly visible in the area
most are still in use
I have some leads and traces between Leon Grande and Agua Leon
as well as to Cordonices

Screen Shot 2024-04-25 at 11.42.59 PM copy.jpg - 265kB

pacificobob - 4-26-2024 at 07:09 AM

It never fails to amaze me how little locals know about the history of their area. Even current knowledge about areas 25kms from their place of birth.
We were exploring (ok, half lost) on motorbikes about 100km south of batopilias Chihuahua and came to a settlement of about 30 indigenous folks. When i asked the name of the river that they lived on, i got the deer in the headlights look. Their only response was "the river".

Locally, here in South baja simple questions like , when did electricity come to the village?, where did your grandparents get water? Go unanswered or with vague answers..... And minimal curiosity.

David K - 4-26-2024 at 09:58 AM

Good point, Bob.
I am also amused that they rarely give names to hot springs, other than calling them 'Agua Caliente'...

mtgoat666 - 4-26-2024 at 10:43 AM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob

It never fails to amaze me how little locals know about the history of their area. Even current knowledge about areas 25kms from their place of birth.

Locally, here in South baja simple questions like , when did electricity come to the village?, where did your grandparents get water? Go unanswered or with vague answers..... And minimal curiosity.

If you ask me when electricity came to my town, i would not know…

Why are you asking locals inane questions about dates of infrastructure construction?

4x4abc - 4-26-2024 at 01:30 PM

If you ask me when electricity came to my town, i would not know…

Why are you asking locals inane questions about dates of infrastructure construction?

remember your first car?
the year you got it?
good!

many places in Baja never had power (many still don't)
finally getting power is likely like getting your first car

but it could be that the Baja people don't really care much
they don't have money to buy anything that runs on power
except maybe light bulbs
for those the government had a free solar project in the 1990's for even the remotest places - you got a solar panel, a battery and one light bulb.

remember the days when in Bahia de los Angels the power went out at 10pm?
when the machinist was drunk it would not come on the next day
or when they were out of diesel (happened often) there was no power for weeks.
those days when the light stayed on past 10pm were sad days
it meant that someone had died
the corpse was stored in the walk in freezer at Guillermos and it needed to be kept cold over night

mtgoat666 - 4-26-2024 at 02:40 PM

I have talked with quite a few locals who know their land well, the natural history, human history, etc.
it is sad you arm chair google earth travelers are writing off locals as ignorant bumpkins.

4x4abc - 4-26-2024 at 03:58 PM

here is what i have so far

white blobs are water sources
the diamond signs are traces of trails
the yellow lines are trails wide enough for vehicles
the white lines are well established mining foot trails
many of them now used by MC groups
the red arrows are the high points of the trail

straight south from Leon Grande is very rugged - not likely
SE from Leon Grande is mountainous with deep canyons - not likely
only east has the terrain described in the report - very likely their path
the 2 high points kinda match
there are 2 sections of dead straight roads for the last part of the journey (long arrows)
the northernmost is likely the one as I understand they did not follow it

[Edited on 4-26-2024 by 4x4abc]

4x4abc - 4-26-2024 at 04:20 PM

the northernmost straight road is not as dead straight as the Pemex trails from the 1950's - but very straight for Baja standards

David K - 4-26-2024 at 04:59 PM

You have the old road to La Paz and the newer Baja 1000 road, both south from El Crucero, as white lines. These are auto roads, still. Just an fyi.
Otherwise, I love the work.

Can you add some kind of dashed line or other way to show us which lines you think Hale and friend hiked 100 years ago?

4x4abc - 4-26-2024 at 05:18 PM

sorry - forgot to mention that
work in progress
the old Baja road is also in white

I have dash lines somewhere

Lance S. - 4-27-2024 at 02:11 PM

That's amazing work Harald, you can see the trail that branches off and heads over the Mesa to Agua Leon. You can even make out where the Y junction was. Thank you!

4x4abc - 4-27-2024 at 04:59 PM

the straight line you see in my image is, as I believe, a signal line
there is a peak visible almost all the way from Leon Grande north
perfect direction for Codornices
29°16'39.77"N, 114°18'3.59"W

peak.jpg - 233kB

4x4abc - 4-27-2024 at 05:09 PM

there is some new MC activity in the area
someone laying out a new trail
MCs are very active in that part of the desert
29° 7'56.88"N, 114°16'29.19"W

bajaric - 4-28-2024 at 09:18 AM

there is some new MC activity in the area
someone laying out a new trail
MCs are very active in that part of the desert
29° 7'56.88"N, 114°16'29.19"W

I was wondering when you were going to spot that trail. It is a single track originating at Agua Leon and going around and over the west side of Mesas Leoncito then south towards Leon Grande. The trail matches Hale's route, could it be an old burro trail?

As for Leon Grande, I can't see any trace of it. I think it was never more than a couple of shacks next to a tiny spring. A possible explanation of its inclusion on so many maps would be that Goldbaum, being a mining guy, would have known the area due to its proximity to Mina Columbia, a big gold mine just to the south. When he drew his map there were some Germans that were involved in mining at BOLA who were building a road to a proposed mine in the Leon Grande area. It's possible that Goldbaum knew of their activity at Leon Grande and put it on his map during the brief period when it was occupied by the Germans. The mine was a bust, and the Germans all went home when the war ended. Subsequent map makers all copied Goldbaum, making Leon Grande seem more substantial than it really was.

Old abandoned mining camps are usually very hard to see on Google Earth. After 100 years anything that was built from wood is long gone. Only foundations or structures that were built from stone or adobe can still be seen. For example, even Las Flores, a substantial mill site with many buildings can barely be seen on the satellite view. Everything is gone except one stone building. Same for Las Arrastras, Molino de Lacy, El Crucero, La Milla, etc. These were all mining camps / mills built near a well or water source. The early Baja map makers always showed these camps on their maps because they were inhabited places with water. Leon Grande, being a tiny camp, is understandably invisible.

[Edited on 4-28-2024 by bajaric]

David K - 4-28-2024 at 01:30 PM

Thanks Ric... I guess that 'Long Walk to Mulegé' made a big deal of it as it was Goldbaum who advised the young WWI vets in Ensenada and provided them with his map.

Howard Gulick, who traveled the peninsula by Willys-Jeep wagons, extensively from 1950 to 1970, never mentioned Leon Grande... which I though was odd. Howard mapped the El Camino Real in 1954 and always provided history of the mines and villages. His original, large scale maps would be such a joy to see. The Lower California Guidebook maps were abbreviations of the large maps Howard had made during his travels. I saw them at his friend (Andy Anderson's) home... the one south of San Felipe I remember seeing as a kid and again when I popped in for a visit in 1976, when I was 18.

The maps are in the Gulick collection at UCSD... One day... mmmmmmmmmmm, one day!

4x4abc - 4-28-2024 at 07:55 PM

I wrote this before -
Gulick was the first to make accurate Baja maps
he shows what's there
not "there should be a trail here somewhere"

mtgoat666 - 4-28-2024 at 09:24 PM

The maps are in the Gulick collection at UCSD... One day... mmmmmmmmmmm, one day!

What’s stopping you? You probably live 30 minutes from UCSD…

David K - 4-29-2024 at 09:08 AM

Not that close... closer to an hour.
I guess I have not tried to see them is because of the shear size of the university, where to park, and not knowing protocol. Neal Johns (R.I.P) and I were going to go see them at one time... then time won.
My step-son, Josh may be going there soon. His sister graduated from it a few years ago... I could ask them.
You are right to ask me, goat.

Lance S. - 4-29-2024 at 10:04 AM

Some pretty cool stuff about the area, including info on water sources
Page 119

https://books.google.com/books?id=wM0QAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA120&...

4x4abc - 4-29-2024 at 10:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bajaric

that MC trail is the hardest to follow of all MC trails I have found so far
some cow trails are easier
I guess, it sees little use
the frequently used MC trails are the easiest of all trails in Baja to spot on sat images
I love their elegance!
they weave through the landscape like no other
cow trails and MTB trails are more eradic, have harsher turns
MC trails have wide swings and gentle turns

by now I can tell just by looking at a trail/road who created it
animals, padres, ranchers, farmers, MC, MTB, hikers, private dozer, government dozer, Pemex, Boleo

4x4abc - 4-29-2024 at 10:29 AM

there is another aspect that I like about the MC trails
they bring long forgotten trails back to life
Camino Real as well as mining trails.
One day the trail(s) betyween Agua Leon and Leon Grande will be back on the map
there is a new MC creation south of Leon Grande that I really like
looks like an old route from Punta Prieta to Leon Grande

Attachment: MC.kmz (19kB)
This file has been downloaded 5 times

mtgoat666 - 4-29-2024 at 10:50 AM

Not that close... closer to an hour.
I guess I have not tried to see them is because of the shear size of the university, where to park, and not knowing protocol. Neal Johns (R.I.P) and I were going to go see them at one time... then time won.
My step-son, Josh may be going there soon. His sister graduated from it a few years ago... I could ask them.
You are right to ask me, goat.

Public university libraries are generally open for all. UCSD libraries are there for you.
Historical manuscripts/collections are often only viewable in certain rooms, due to being fragile. You normally just call or email to tell them what you want to see, and book an appointment.
Parking on campus is easy, just pay the fee. The trolley and busses also serve campus.
The UCSD collection ae mostly listed on line, just call or email the listed contacts to ask how to access...
https://library.ucsd.edu/research-and-collections/special-co...

here is page to submit request for gullick maps
https://library.ucsd.edu/speccoll/findingaids/mss0091.html#a...

[Edited on 4-29-2024 by mtgoat666]

Excellent find!

David K - 4-29-2024 at 11:17 AM

Some pretty cool stuff about the area, including info on water sources
Page 119

https://books.google.com/books?id=wM0QAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA120&...

Text from that book from PC scanned to plain text:

Mission Calamajué to La Vachata (Bachata): 70 kms. (Santa Maria and Rosarito quadrangles, pls. 58 and 60).

The trail to La Vachata goes southwestward through the narrow gorge of Arroyo Calamajué (8 kms.). Above the canyon there is a broad valley, and near its upper end the trail divides, one branch going south via Yubay to Las Flores (San Borja quadrangle, pl. 61), and another southwestward to Los Codornices and 1 lado (?), ranches which were not visited. Following the 1 tter (?) trail to the divide (elevation 2,000 feet), the trail descends the gentle western slope to the arroyo below Los Codornices.

In this arroyo there is, near the trail, a large stone about ton feet high, against which have been leaned a number of logs, forming a shelter (20 kms.). Here a dim trail leads southeastward over a steep ridge, and down Arroyo Leon to Aqua Leon (28 kms.), where water may be obtained by digging at various places in the arroyo.

From Pozo Salorio (1. 34A) to Leon Grande the trail is traversing the higher portions of the main range of the peninsula. Though the eastern slope is precipitous, the topography of the western slope is fairly gentle, the valleys boing rather shallow, though steep-sided and the hill tops being broad, gently undulating surfaces. this region, and the surface of the gr nitic terrain is only partially covered by a thin veneer of arkose sands, formed by the decomposition of the granite in an arid climate.

Cirio (l. 343) and mezcal plants (pl. 151) are very numerous, but other vegetation is only rarely seen.

There are no ranches and travelers are seldom encountered.

Meloros (wandering, men who gather wild honey for a living) are the only humans that one is likely to meet.

Cirios with hollow trunks frequently contain bee hives, and both cirio
and mezcal furnish large quantities of strong nectar from which the bees
make honey. The region is nearly devoid of game and an occasional lizard
may be the only living creature seen in a day's ride.

Arroyo Leon may be followed all the way to La Vachata, but slight detours will load one to the Tinaja del Melero (33 kms.), where a small amount of good water may be obtained by digging in the sand which fills the hollows in the rocks, and to the well of Leon Grande (42 kms.).

The latter is a well about 90 foot deep and has a windlass, cable, and a large iron bucket. As the well has been left uncovered for a long time, lizard, rabbits, and snakes have been drowned in it, making the water undesirable but not absolutely unusable. exere (?) forced to drink it and carry a supply with us and suffered no ill effects. A wagon road begins at the mine of Leon Grande (3 kms. from the well of that name), and follows the arroyo to La Vachata, and ultimately to Calmallí (San Borja quadrangle, pl. 61).

This road is a part of a road which was intended to make wagon travel possible throughout the length or the peninsula. It has been built northward from Calmallí, via Rosarito and San Andros (Rosarito quadrangle, pl. 60), and ends at Leon Grande. It is not likely that the northern extension of this road will be built for many years, as there are few ranches in the region and the need for a road is not very great.

Punta Prieta (60 kms.), is a small settlement now occupied only by the families of two men who act as caretakers for the idle mill. (pl.343). Hills were built here for working the ore from a number of mines in the vicinity.

David K - 4-29-2024 at 11:22 AM

Thank you... I have seen this before. I guess the question I would have, with so many boxes to request, and not knowing what exactly is in the boxes, how many can be checked? Can I make copies or take photos of what I see? Am I the only one here interested in this?

Lance S. - 4-29-2024 at 11:46 AM

"This road is a part of a road which was intended to make wagon travel possible throughout the length or the peninsula. It has been built northward from Calmallí, via Rosarito and San Andros (Rosarito quadrangle, pl. 60), and ends at Leon Grande. It is not likely that the northern extension of this road will be built for many years, as there are few ranches in the region and the need for a road is not very great."

Is the plan for the wagon road what we are seeing on this 1946 map? It would be consistent with both the 1922 geology report and North's 1905 description of the 'main trail".
https://octopup.org/img/media/maps/baja/1946--Baja-Californi...

[Edited on 4-29-2024 by Lance S.]

[Edited on 4-29-2024 by Lance S.]

mtgoat666 - 4-29-2024 at 11:49 AM

If it was me, I would check all the boxes and see what's in 'em.

If you got Qs about the library, then call or visit the librarian!

[Edited on 4-29-2024 by mtgoat666]

Lance S. - 4-29-2024 at 12:16 PM

A rough breakdown of what appears on the 1946 map.

4x4abc - 4-29-2024 at 01:16 PM

can anyone confirm the location of Pozo Salorio ?

David K - 4-29-2024 at 03:16 PM

"This road is a part of a road which was intended to make wagon travel possible throughout the length or the peninsula. It has been built northward from Calmallí, via Rosarito and San Andros (Rosarito quadrangle, pl. 60), and ends at Leon Grande. It is not likely that the northern extension of this road will be built for many years, as there are few ranches in the region and the need for a road is not very great."

Is the plan for the wagon road what we are seeing on this 1946 map? It would be consistent with both the 1922 geology report and North's 1905 description of the 'main trail".
https://octopup.org/img/media/maps/baja/1946--Baja-Californi...

[Edited on 4-29-2024 by Lance S.]

[Edited on 4-29-2024 by Lance S.]

It sure seems so!
However, the map year is simply a printing date as the 'modern' road from San Agustin/El Mármol jcn. to Punta Prieta was in before 1930...

Here is the government's new road map to Mulegé, of Feb. 1927 (I suspect with AAA help): https://octopup.org/img/media/maps/baja/1927--Plano-de-los-C...

AAA Peninsula map of 1930: https://octopup.org/img/media/maps/baja/1930--Baja-Californi...

See all the maps in my VivaBaja collection: https://vivabaja.com/maps/

Lance S. - 4-29-2024 at 03:17 PM

can anyone confirm the location of Pozo Salorio ?

The lack of any mention of Las Arrastras is interesting.

David K - 4-29-2024 at 03:35 PM

can anyone confirm the location of Pozo Salorio ?

Didn't we conclude (in the past) it was Las Palmitas... about 10 miles southwest of Gonzaga Bay? 29.6728, -114.4721 ?

Lance S. - 4-29-2024 at 03:48 PM

can anyone confirm the location of Pozo Salorio ?

Didn't we conclude (in the past) it was Las Palmitas... about 10 miles southwest of Gonzaga Bay? 29.6728, -114.4721 ?

It was after crossing the divide between Rinconada and La Turquesa according to old maps. The 1922 report sounds like it was near La Turquesa but it is not clear.

[Edited on 4-29-2024 by Lance S.]

David K - 4-29-2024 at 06:14 PM

Las Palmitas is the next canyon north of La Turquesa. It is on El Camino Real, also.

[Edited on 4-30-2024 by David K]

4x4abc - 4-29-2024 at 10:49 PM

just to throw a little wrench into the game:

4x4abc - 4-29-2024 at 11:41 PM

so, here is what we have

in the northern part of the image we have a location called La Rinconada
a tough section of a trail (been working on tracing it) from Jaraguay to Las Palmitas
Las Palmitas could have been Pozo Saloro or Aguae Calam

in the southern part we have Arroyo La Rinconada flowing from Cerro Pedregoso SW
La Turquesa road runs parallel for a little bit
to the east of it is Arroyo La Turquesa with a water source near the bottom
which could have been named Pozo Saloro or Aguae Calam

Las Arrastras in the right hand corner

La Rinconada.jpg - 284kB

David K - 4-30-2024 at 08:03 AM

I have been to Las Palmitas a couple of times (1999-2003) and it always seemed to be a dead end, box canyon. The El Camino Real reached it from the east and left it going north, as the auto road now does.

This photo of me hiking uphill from Las Palmitas (palms in background) was taken by BajaMur (RIP). I recall just boulders beyond this point...? Maybe I am on the trail that Harald shows?

Here is my son at the water in La Turquesa Canyon, 2002:

29°33.73′, -114°23.93′

More photos of the water in La Turquesa Canyon taken by Wayno (B&BBait) at https://vivabaja.com/wayno/

Water is everywhere... if you know where to look!

4x4abc - 4-30-2024 at 08:41 AM

here are the traces I have so far

traces.jpg - 271kB

Lance S. - 4-30-2024 at 09:04 AM

Jaraguay used to have lots of palms. Just like Agua Dulce they are gone now. Learned something new today!

14 Kilometers from Jaraguay puts you right at La Rinconada on Km 213 of the highway.

Isn't the well at Las Arrastras drilled through solid granite?

[Edited on 4-30-2024 by Lance S.]

Jaraguay by Howard Gulick

David K - 4-30-2024 at 01:55 PM

The 1962-67 Lower California Guidebook:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------

Rancho Jaraguay in May 1957:

Remains (between Km. 196-197, east of highway on the Old Road): 29° 37.653'N, 114° 36.344'W

[Edited on 4-30-2024 by David K]

bajaric - 4-30-2024 at 05:08 PM

Thanks Lance, for finding and providing a little more info on Leon Grande from Beal:

"the well of Leon Grande (42 kms.).

The latter is a well about 90 foot deep and has a windlass, cable, and a large iron bucket."

So, a well was dug there at some point!

That would be fun to go out to the end of that road west of Parador Punta Prieta and try and find Leon Grande. The wooden structures associated with these old camps from 1900-1920 have usually vanished. There is, however, usually one thing that remains, their trash! If a place was inhabited for any significant period of time you usually can find trash dumps that contain old tin cans, glass bottles, and fragments of crockery. If there were workers there long enough to dig a well and build a wagon trail I bet somewhere nearby one could find an old trash dump.

On the road a couple miles west of Parador Punta Prieta there is a big trash dump but it is modern trash, a whole bunch of those fat brown beer bottles that had the opener recessed into the bottom of the bottle. I can't remember what kind of beer that was and when those were in use? That is a neat area, lots of cardon, super remote the farther west that you go, has not changed much in the last 100 years.

[Edited on 5-1-2024 by bajaric]

4x4abc - 4-30-2024 at 05:47 PM

trying to locate the remnants of rancho Pedregoso
any leads?

David K - 5-1-2024 at 08:30 AM

trying to locate the remnants of rancho Pedregoso
any leads?

Unfortunately, no Gulick photos of the ranch. Only one of the boulder hill and one of a mule cart... from 1957:

Cliff Cross, in his 1970 Baja Guide shows us what remains of Rancho El Pedregoso:

The Old Road passed the boulder hill on the west side, whereas Hwy. 1 was built to the east of the famous landmark hill.

Harry Crosby has several photos of the boulder hill.

Harald, I looked without success, but maybe you can find that concrete water trough or ranch remains?

4x4abc - 5-1-2024 at 09:41 AM

looking at the 1962 Gulick map we have some strong pointers
Arroyo san Jose - upper section not shown on today's topos
Arroyo San Jose (flowing down from Cerro Pedregoso - the real big one) runs past Rancho El Pedregoso
with a distinct curve
judging by how the ground looks like, I think it was here:
29°31'41.56"N, 114°31'7.61"W
no clear signs of the trough - but a faint indication

mtgoat666 - 5-1-2024 at 10:03 AM

looking at the 1962 Gulick map we have some strong pointers
Arroyo san Jose - upper section not shown on today's topos
Arroyo San Jose (flowing down from Cerro Pedregoso - the real big one) runs past Rancho El Pedregoso
with a distinct curve
judging by how the ground looks like, I think it was here:
29°31'41.56"N, 114°31'7.61"W
no clear signs of the trough - but a faint indication

Never knew that mountain was called cerro pedregoso. We have always called that T-Rex rocks, because of the large boulder visible on the skyline that looks like profile of a T Rex.

I have always wanted to scramble up that mountain. Maybe next time i drive by i will park at the old ranch location and scramble up the peak.

[Edited on 5-1-2024 by mtgoat666]

4x4abc - 5-1-2024 at 10:27 AM

that rocky hill is NOT Cerro Pedregoso
it is called El Pedregoso, like the rancho
but Cerro Pedregoso is the 4,650 ft mountain in the back (north)

Pedregoso copy.jpg - 269kB

4x4abc - 5-1-2024 at 10:49 AM

could be the trough

David K - 5-1-2024 at 11:19 AM

Bravo!!! You found it... matches the Cross photo in tat it points toward the road, not parallel to it. Ranch house plot is pretty clear, too.
Good job, Harald... I knew you could do it!

Lance S. - 5-1-2024 at 12:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bajaric

That would be fun to go out to the end of that road west of Parador Punta Prieta and try and find Leon Grande. .

[Edited on 5-1-2024 by bajaric]

It would be fun to run out there, maybe do the 4 mile round trip hike to find the well.

Lance S. - 5-1-2024 at 12:18 PM

The arroyo that flows past El Pedregrosso flows into Arroyo La Rinconada which then flows into Arroyo San Jose.

I believe the arroyo now called Codornices on Inegi maps is actually the head of Arroyo San Jose. Where San Jose de Las Palomas (possible head of the mission rancheria of that name) is located.

[Edited on 5-1-2024 by Lance S.]

4x4abc - 5-1-2024 at 12:25 PM

source of Arroyo San Jose:
29°34'47.64"N, 114°31'8.50"W
originating at Cerro Pedregoso
Arroyo La Rinconada flows into it past rancho El Pedregoso

the 1962 Gulick map is pretty clear about that

[Edited on 5-1-2024 by 4x4abc]

Lance S. - 5-1-2024 at 12:26 PM

The spot marked water on this map is San Jose de Las Palomas.

4x4abc - 5-1-2024 at 12:30 PM

Ar. Codornices originates here:
29°16'16.63"N.114°20'47.84"W

4x4abc - 5-1-2024 at 12:38 PM

The spot marked water on this map is San Jose de Las Palomas.

which map?

Lance S. - 5-1-2024 at 12:40 PM

I believe Gulick is mistaken on that one.
Just an opinion.

[Edited on 5-1-2024 by Lance S.]

Lance S. - 5-1-2024 at 12:43 PM

which map?

1905

David K - 5-1-2024 at 01:21 PM

which map?

1905

At www.vivabaja.com/maps ...
1905 Mine Map

4x4abc - 5-1-2024 at 05:52 PM

I believe Gulick is mistaken on that one.
Just an opinion.

[Edited on 5-1-2024 by Lance S.]

I am on Gulick's side
haven't seen a single mistake in his maps

David K - 5-1-2024 at 07:15 PM

I believe Gulick is mistaken on that one.
Just an opinion.

[Edited on 5-1-2024 by Lance S.]

I am on Gulick's side
haven't seen a single mistake in his maps

As you may know, I am a huge Howard Gulick fan... His guidebook was the Baja Bible for so many of us in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. Meeting him was a thrill for young me, as well. I drew maps in his style as a kid and teen +.
There are a couple of errors, but they were showing places he did not visit.

mtgoat666 - 5-1-2024 at 09:39 PM

that rocky hill is NOT Cerro Pedregoso
it is called El Pedregoso, like the rancho
but Cerro Pedregoso is the 4,650 ft mountain in the back (north)

Are you sure? The granitic “rocky hill” is really more spectacular than the boring basalt mountain in the back,… and pedregoso seems like the name old timers would have given to the granitic boulders of the rocky hill. And Google maps calls the hill “Cerro…” and I have heard (here) that in baja the locals don't know, and what is on the internet is truthier

[Edited on 5-2-2024 by mtgoat666]

David K - 5-1-2024 at 11:05 PM

Inegi does not consult historic sources or old timers very well. They get many names wrong or mixed up.

4x4abc - 5-2-2024 at 12:43 AM

there is a reason why this one network is called Truth Social and not Facts Social
truth is a user created feel good version of some selected facts
facts are just that - facts. They don't care how people feel about them

Google Maps uses official documents as a base
the rest is crowd sourcing
anyone can chip in
people are encouraged to chip in
saves staff
so, when smart phone tourists are zipping by a big rocky hill, they give it a rocky name in Google Maps
a tiny world through a small fast moving car window

names for landscape features were given by early travelers and frequent users
the simple fact that an Arroyo, mountain, Mesa, Punta has a name indicates that the area has been used a lot
early explorers and travelers named them for navigational reasons
mountain peaks like Puntas at the shore play a primary role
they were used as aiming points
So, the mighty Cerro Pedregoso served an important role in navigation for the late 1800's explorers and prospectors
the tiny rock dump in the valley did not

by the way - the name alone indicates to me who the first explorers and prospectors were
The padres used mostly Christian names for significant landscape features
prospectors an miners used real world names
Pedregoso, La Turquesa, La Rinconada
and the first significant travelers in that area were miners and prospectors

I just used the presence of names yesterday to find another important travel route in the area
Puerto San Francisquito, Lacey, Pioneer, Chapala, Puerto Bahia Blanco
I rarely ever search for old trails/roads in nameless Arroyos

by checking names on maps I found a previously unrecorded stretch of Camino Real a few years ago
Cañada La Cuesta Vieja
who would name an Arroyo in the middle of nowhere Cuesta La Vieja unless there was an old Cuesta?
and a Cuesta would indicate a trail
I zoomed in and found a well defined Camino Real section
not in any of the books
INEGI maps are a great tool for that

David might have some personal beef with them - I don't

[Edited on 5-2-2024 by 4x4abc]

mtgoat666 - 5-2-2024 at 06:37 AM

Language is not static, words in use change over time, same with geographic names,… the common local usage drifts with time,… geographic names were not etched in stone in the 1700s.
Maybe crowd sourcing (google maps, open street map) is best way to establish and document geographic names actually used by people, eh?

4x4abc - 5-2-2024 at 06:52 AM

Language is not static, words in use change over time, same with geographic names,… the common local usage drifts with time,… geographic names were not etched in stone in the 1700s.
Maybe crowd sourcing (google maps, open street map) is best way to establish and document geographic names actually used by people, eh?

on street level - sure

David K - 5-2-2024 at 09:32 AM

Not personal, Harald... just the facts.

Swapping the bay names at Gonzaga, the Arroyo el Volcán name with 'Zamora', etc. It is just careless work of a government employee.

Ensenada San Francisquito is the south half of the double bay, named after the gold ore mill, San Francisquito (later called Molino de Lacy) and Puerto San Francisquito (later called Punta Final Resort).

Arroyo Las Arrastras on INEGI was Arroyo San Francisquito, named after the waterhole on El Camino Real, original called San Francisco 29.5522, -114.3441. It is almost across the highway from the new Coco's Corner (at Las Arrastras)... just a little north. Anyway, that waterhole gave its name to all the many San Francisquito's of this area.

From Howard Gulick in 1956:

[Edited on 5-2-2024 by David K]

mtgoat666 - 5-2-2024 at 10:04 AM