Braulio
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Mexico's neutrality.
Hola.
I read some comments on Mexico's supposed neutrality during WWII on another board this morning - it was an interesting exchange and thought some
comments about Mexico's position in world conflicts might be interesting.
First off Mexico wasn't nuetral during WWII. Mexico tried to remain neutral but broke off diplomatic relations with the axis powers following Pearl
Harbor and in May of 1942 Germany torpedoed a couple mexico merchant ships of the coast of Florida so Mexico declared war on the axis countries the
end of May 1942.
The Mexican President at the time was Avila Camacho. He happens to be one of my all-time favorite Mexican Presidents (along with Zedillo) - he set
right some of the actions takes by Card##as and steered the presidency in a new direction - up to that time all presidents had been ex-military. It
was also a difficult time because the Mexican Republic was being threatened from within by both fascists and communists.
Although it didn't participate much in the way of troops to the allied effort it did supply oil/raw material and a whole lot of manpower directly to
the US to work the factories and the fields. The relationship between Roosevielt and Camacho was tight.
It's interesting - and hardly ever noted - the Alien Enemies Act put restrictions on Germans, Italians, and especially Japanese living in the US but
Mexicans living illegaly in the US were untouched.
In most world conflicts Mexico does try to remain neutral. It's situation is dificult having such a powerful nation to it's north but still needing
to have relations with the rest of the world - in addition it has traditionally been a rural or agrarian based type country and just hasn't had the
means to project power outside it's borders.
I guess the point of my bringing up this theme is that I don't think too much should be read into Mexico in the Security Council aligning or not
aligning itself with the US on the current conflict.
Mexico's situation is kind of like Switzerland's (which is still not even part of the EU).
Appearing to be a lap dog of the US would simply not serve Mexico's own interests well.
Chau guys.
Braulio
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Stephanie Jackter
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Interesting analysisI a
I do agree with your conclusion, although I'm very weak on my Mexican history and will therefore accept you version of the events of WW11. I think we
could also agree, though, that sending troops is the ultimate endorsement of war. The only thing that remains to be seen is how Mexico will react in
the face of WW111, the first salvos of which may have well just been fired.-Stephanie
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Braulio
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Stephanie -
The facts I stated weren't my version of history - they're simply the way it was. The opinion part was my opinion - I think I distinguished them.
As for the conflict in Iraq being a precursor to WWIII - yeah I guess it's possible. Personally I think that doing nothing (or working with the UN -
which amounts to nothing) and allowing Iraq to develop a nuclear threat would be a better bet to be a precursor to WWIII.
In fact sometimes troops are sent in not so much as an endorsement of war but to prevent a bigger all-out war from happening. Let's hope this is the
case in the Iraqi war.
Focusing things on Mexico did you know that when the US Marines landed in Veracruz and occupied Mexico that many Mexicans were hoping/assuming that
the US would take over the entire country. In fact the Catholic Church of Mexico was in favor of US taking over the mexican government - kind of
strange considering the US is a mostly protestant country.
Take care.
Braulio
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Stephanie Jackter
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Braulio:
The facts I stated weren't my version of history - they're simply the way it was. The
opinion part was my opinion - I think I distinguished them.
-I didn't mean to imply I was in doubt of your facts. Just admitting my own ignorance.
As for the conflict in Iraq being a precursor to WWIII - yeah I guess it's possible.
Personally I think that doing nothing (or working with the UN - which amounts to
nothing) and allowing Iraq to develop a nuclear threat would be a better bet to be a
precursor to WWIII.
-Well, that's something we will certainly never have a chance to know, will we? BTW, they sure are finding some big stashes of "weapons of mass
destruction", huh. Do you believe it now should be our policy to invade any country that attempts to develop nuclear weapons? - or those who already
have them? How many countries are we gonna have to invade in order to stop nuclear weapons production? Isn't that as difficult as stemming the
epidemic of SARS? And with it comes the unintended side effect of world destabilization that comes with these invasions.
In fact sometimes troops are sent in not so much as an endorsement of war but to
prevent a bigger all-out war from happening. Let's hope this is the case in the Iraqi
war.
-This is about as "all out" as I wanna see in my lifetime. And the destabilization of the world righ now is terrifying to me.
Focusing things on Mexico did you know that when the US Marines landed in
Veracruz and occupied Mexico that many Mexicans were hoping/assuming that the
US would take over the entire country. In fact the Catholic Church of Mexico was in
favor of US taking over the mexican government - kind of strange considering the US
is a mostly protestant country.
-Once again, I'm so ignorant about Mexican history. Was the invasion of Veracruz during the Spanish American War? I've never heard about it. I just
know a little bit about Santa Anna and not much more. I'd have to know a heck of a lot more about context to make even a guess about why the Catholic
church might have wanted the U.S. to take over. - Stephanie
[Edited on 4-1-2003 by Stephanie Jackter]
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JESSE
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Braulio is correct Steph, and Mexico even sent an airforce squadron to the Pacific teather, escuadron 201.
http://www.squadron201.com/history.htm
[Edited on 4-1-2003 by JESSE]
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Minnow
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Mood: Embarrased Harry Reid is a Nevadan
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I asked some of my mexican friends this very question on my last trip south. Their answer was that Mexico didn't want to do anything that might make
the terroristas consider Mexico as a target. Remember Fox abstained from voting on the security council issue. They figured, my friends that is,
That enough americans were in Mexico, living or as tourists, that an attack was a possibility. Especially considering the fact that they don't have
the resources to police every inch of territory as we do. Makes sence to me. Tom
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JESSE
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Minnow
I asked some of my mexican friends this very question on my last trip south. Their answer was that Mexico didn't want to do anything that might make
the terroristas consider Mexico as a target. Remember Fox abstained from voting on the security council issue. They figured, my friends that is,
That enough americans were in Mexico, living or as tourists, that an attack was a possibility. Especially considering the fact that they don't have
the resources to police every inch of territory as we do. Makes sence to me. Tom |
Not really Minnow,
AlQaeda does not respect those kinds of things, if they want to get americans in Mexico, they will, regardless of the stand that the Mexican goverment
has.
From what i saw here, pretty much 90% of Mexico was completely against this war, and since we have federal elections in July that are crucial to Fox's
party, i don't think he wanted to risk an electoral disaster.
His administration wanted to support the U.S., but everybodu else was against it, if he would have voted for it, he would have paid for it dearly with
votes.
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FirstFederal
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Aztec Eagle Links
This is an interesting subject and one that I became interested in a few months ago, on another discission board.
Although not general public knowledge, there is a lot of information on the web about the Aztec Eagles and Mexican involvement in WW2.
Here are a few links that I found about Squadron 201 and the MAF.
http://www.1upinfo.com/country-guide-study/mexico/mexico105....
http://users.senet.com.au/~mhyde/ww2_aircraft_mexico.htm
http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/slenchek/slmexicoww2.h...
http://www.utexas.edu/projects/latinoarchives/narratives/vol...
http://www.sjvls.org/sjvis/bens/bf006mx.html
This link is for art and I don't advocate buying, I just include it because I like pics of aircraft and this is a pretty good one of a Mexican Aztec
Eagle P-47.
http://www.oldgloryprints.com/Strike%20of%20the%20Aztec%20Ea...
More pics of Mexican Air Force aircraft.
http://www.laahs.com/art84.htm
The current Mexican Air Force.
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/americas/mexico/mex-airforce...
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Tucker
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I went with my friend and army air force sgt. to his base of operation this afternoon, I don't think the pictured aircraft is the one mentioned above,
but it is one of two of the same type on static display at the La Paz air base. A side note: Operational aircraft consist of about 10 turbo-prop
fighters, a weird aircraft, sounds even more weird when flying over.
Further search indicates that the pictured aircraft must be a T-28.
[Edited on 5-18-2003 by Tucker]
[Edited on 5-18-2003 by Tucker]
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FirstFederal
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Cool pic Tucker! It's pretty nice that you got to go to the base with your friend too. There is a base in Ensenada that I drove by a lot and I've
always wanted to get a better look at the DC-3 and the Convair 440 parked there.
I'd love to see the BUNO of this aircraft. Any other pics of the bird? The Bureau Number is a (usually) a 6 digit numeric code located on the lower
section of the tail.
It's unusual to see a T-28 with this style prop. I'd like to look up the history of the aircraft.
[Edited on 5-18-2003 by FirstFederal]
[Edited on 5-18-2003 by FirstFederal]
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Braulio
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Sr. Tucker - Neat picture - I had no idea they had anything like that in La Paz.
Minnow - Yeah - your 90% figure jibes with my own experience in Mexico. I think that in some respects Mexico's military/police have more control over
things within Mexico than they do in the US. In Mexico their primary mission is to control and aid their own people - they're really not set up to do
much outside of Mexico's borders.
In addition foreigners just plain stick out more in Mexico.
Jesse - I think you hit it - Pres. Fox's personal opinions aren't even that important here - he's a politician first.
Off topic to Jesse - I've been stopped by the federal police on several occasions but yeah - it's fairly rare. Once I made the mistake of making eye
contact with some guy in a restaurant in Mexicali and he turned out to by a federale - he had me followed in my car and stopped and searched. I guess
I just looked out of place to him.
I've also been stopped and searched as a pedestrian - but there's usually something that triggers it - like I'm carrying a funny looking bag or
something.
A couple weeks ago I was leaving the Mexicali airport and got about a mile away when a team of federales pulled me over and questioned me - but the
search didn't amount to much. They said that I met the description of someone they were looking for.
Who knows.
Take care muchachos.
Braulio
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Tucker
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FF.....the only numbers on the tail are T28 574 and the large 74 on the fuselage, another photo taken from the right rear quarter confirms that.
My friend has my camera and will take photos of the second T-28, Also next door at the Naval base is an Albotross flying boat on static display, he
should be able to get a good photo of that also.
[Edited on 5-19-2003 by Tucker]
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