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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Sorry Mulegena, but I'm not impressed with the man's conclusion that since there are no cleaning wrasses in baja the rays resort to jumping. These
kind of connections are often made by biologists, especially on television programs, and just bring a smile to more seasoned scientists. Actually,
it's amazing how often such tenuous conclusions are provided by authorities. This is particularly prevalent in the science of biology. Go to almost
any natural history museum and you will hear explanations that will leave you scratching your head.
BTW, Alex saw a program recently that showed rays stunning baitfish with the shock waves produced by the impact on water. These fish were later
consumed before they revived. When I reminded him that mantas and mobulas are plankton feeders I did not get a response. But the idea is interesting
and could have merit in some species of rays since the camera showed it all. I don't think that's happening in baja as I have witnessed mobula feeding
behavior.
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Sallysouth
Super Nomad
Posts: 1835
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Capo Beach
Member Is Offline
Mood: missing Baja...
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Like I said, and Mulegena, and others, Feels good and is good fun!I kinda wish I could do just the same thing.Just imagine.....
Happiness is just a Baja memory away...
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Bajamick
Junior Nomad
Posts: 60
Registered: 10-20-2009
Location: Underwater as often as possible!!
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Sorry Mulegena, but I'm not impressed with the man's conclusion that since there are no cleaning wrasses in baja the rays resort to jumping. These
kind of connections are often made by biologists, especially on television programs, and just bring a smile to more seasoned scientists. Actually,
it's amazing how often such tenuous conclusions are provided by authorities. This is particularly prevalent in the science of biology. Go to almost
any natural history museum and you will hear explanations that will leave you scratching your head.
BTW, Alex saw a program recently that showed rays stunning baitfish with the shock waves produced by the impact on water. These fish were later
consumed before they revived. When I reminded him that mantas and mobulas are plankton feeders I did not get a response. But the idea is interesting
and could have merit in some species of rays since the camera showed it all. I don't think that's happening in baja as I have witnessed mobula feeding
behavior. |
I would just like to add my tuppence worth here now directly, and not through Mulegena any more. My thanks to her for getting myself involved in this
interesting conversation.
To reply to you directly Skipjack Joe, I write the following.
You wrote in your text on January 20th @ 2037 that, and I quote, “I just perused the internet and came up with nothing.” Unquote. The very fact that
you have to peruse the internet for information would suggest that you know little to nothing about these animals other than from personal
observations from a boat. A little like myself really, except I have had some 35 years of pleasurable scuba diving experiences, as well as topside
experiences with all kinds of marine animals, including mobula.
You then go on to state that in your opinion mobula jump simply for the benefit that comes from the landing. Well, that landing has to be proceeded by
the jump, so I would suggest that that “jump” and “landing” are really all one act. I’ll state again as I did via Mulegena on January 22nd @ 2224,
that these animals jump for fun and for possibly ridding themselves of parasites. That sounds very similar to your own explanation above in that they
receive some kind of “benefit” from such activities.
However, you then state on January 23rd @ 2201 that you disagree with my observations and thoughts. Fine, I have no problem with anyone, at anytime,
disagreeing with me over anything, but please keep your own facts straight at the same time.
I don’t even mind if you are not impressed with my observations and thoughts, but please read my text via Mulegena correctly first.
In that text I stated that these were my personal observations. I never stated they were facts. I stated that they were my opinions. I never stated
they were facts.
As to your own statement that I was suggesting that mobula only jump in the Sea of Cortez to rid themselves of parasites because there are no wrasse
cleaning stations here (the water is too cold in winter, and too hot in summer for cleaner wrasse) please reread my text. I do not state that mobula
resort (“only??) to jumping because there are no cleaner wrasse hereabouts. Mobula jump worldwide, wherever they are found, not just here in the Baja
region because there are no cleaning stations. I have never seen mobula stationary, as I have manta, eagle and other rays. Mobula always seem to be
heading off in one direction or another. I do not state my thoughts/observations as scientific facts.
And when, if one goes to a Natural History Museum, and is confounded by names, statements, observations etc that leaves one “scratching” ones head,
might I suggest that the best way to stop scratching is to ask questions from the people that know, the scientists, the biologists or other
“authorities” that the often “tenacious conclusions” came from in the first place. When I teach, no matter the level, I always state that there is no
such thing as a stupid question. So might I suggest Skipjack Joe that next time you are confused, lost, left wondering and scratching your head, you
ask people in the know questions. That way you’ll get answers, and stop writing somewhat tenacious conclusions of your own on Baja Nomad.
Let me state now, that I am no scientist, no biologist as a professional. I am just a very interested amateur that has a love of the worlds oceans,
its inhabitants and that I scuba dive almost daily whenever possible. That way I learn far more than searching the internet, practically at least, and
leave the academic stuff to experts whom I’ll ask any day of the week if I need answers I cannot find elsewhere. Yes, including the internet.
As Mulegena said, I do have a degree in Marine Biology, I do have 35 years of worldwide diving (14,000 plus dives) and travel experiences on which to
glean my thoughts and observations from. Yet I state very openly, I am no expert on these matters. But certainly I am not an armchair internet expert
either.
Finally, Baitcast: Thanks for such a magical photograph that you posted on January 21st @1001. Now that brings a smile to my face for sure.
The Ocean is my playground,
And the marine creatures, my playmates!!
Honi soit qui mal y pense!!
Who Cares Who Wins??
www.cortez-explorers.com |
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Bajamick
Junior Nomad
Posts: 60
Registered: 10-20-2009
Location: Underwater as often as possible!!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sallysouth
Like I said, and Mulegena, and others, Feels good and is good fun!I kinda wish I could do just the same thing.Just imagine.....
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Good morning Sallysouth. You can if you wish have that freedom. Learn to dive somewhere (I am not selling my own company here) and then enjoy the
freedom and three dimensional abilities not known to landlubbers. If you don’t dive already that is.
Learn to dive, it will change your life!!
The Ocean is my playground,
And the marine creatures, my playmates!!
Honi soit qui mal y pense!!
Who Cares Who Wins??
www.cortez-explorers.com |
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maspacifico
Nomad
Posts: 317
Registered: 4-22-2008
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I think Sallysouth wants to jump, flip, and flap the wings!
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Bajamick
Junior Nomad
Posts: 60
Registered: 10-20-2009
Location: Underwater as often as possible!!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by maspacifico
I think Sallysouth wants to jump, flip, and flap the wings! |
Trust me, Sallysouth, indeed anyone, can enjoy the freedom that comes with scuba diving. The ability to jump, from boats topside, or underwater from
rocks to the sand safely below. To flip and flap ones wings (arms) in unison with the sway of the surge, the seaweed, the mantas flying by. No matter,
the ocean gives us mere humans, strengths and properties that we do not have on land. Scuba diving is simply so much FUN!!
The Ocean is my playground,
And the marine creatures, my playmates!!
Honi soit qui mal y pense!!
Who Cares Who Wins??
www.cortez-explorers.com |
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Wow, looks like I've hit a nerve.
Your second post seems to deny what you said in your first post:
| Quote: |
So to me, from my own observations and experiences, the rays in general, and here in the Sea of Cortez especially, the Mobula, jump for the two above
mentioned reasons. Fun, and dislodging those parasites that the wrasse cannot, do not, or have not reached. And it must be remembered that there are,
at least to the best of my knowledge, not such animals here in the Sea of Cortez as "Cleaner Wrasse." I do not know if there are any other species of
fish, or indeed invertebrate that would/could perform such cleaning duties in this part of the world..
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As I read this, it states that you think that mobulas jump because the Cortez lacks cleaning wrasses. That's quite a jump in my opinion. From having
witnessed wrasses cleaning rays to suggesting that they jump due to their absence is a real stretch. You were asked a question and this is your
explanation. Frankly, I don't buy it.
I like the idea that they do so to remove parasites but to go further and state that they do so because parasite removing fish are absent is very
unlikely.
Regarding them doing it for 'fun'.
Of course they do it for fun. In the animal world everything is done either for fun or from fear. Everything that is beneficial is done for fun.
That's how evolution works. First comes a behavior that provides benefit and then we become wired to like it. So saying that something is done for fun
is not very illuminating. On the other hand saying they do it for no other reason than 'fun', I wouldn't agree with that. Hunting in the savannah is
fun but running around with no purpose is not 'fun'.
I am sorry that my criticism has hurt your feelings but those are my thoughts.
There are many improbable statements that have turned out to be true. Perhaps yours is one of them. There is a discussion about continental drift on
another thread. Certainly the people who first concluded that since the east coast of south america fits so nicely into the west coast of africa those
2 continents must have been together at one time. The jeers that came from that suggestion must have been ear splitting. Yet the work from Scripps
expeditions proved them to be right. Perhaps your theory will be successful as well. But to me, it seems very far fetched.
As for your snide remarks about head scratching - save the anger.
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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
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Mood: Mellow
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Posted by bajamick:
"And it must be remembered that there are, at least to the best of my knowledge, not such animals here in the Sea of Cortez as "Cleaner Wrasse." I do
not know if there are any other species of fish, or indeed invertebrate that would/could perform such cleaning duties in this part of the world.."
Mick I have seen hammerhead sharks cleaned by king angelfish and barberfish in the Sea of Cortez (El Bajo and Las Animas) and by Clarion angelfish at
Isla San Benedicto in the Revillagigedos. Perhaps these fish provide cleaner services for the bigger rays also, although I have never seen it.
carpe diem!
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Bajamick
Junior Nomad
Posts: 60
Registered: 10-20-2009
Location: Underwater as often as possible!!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Posted by bajamick:
"And it must be remembered that there are, at least to the best of my knowledge, not such animals here in the Sea of Cortez as "Cleaner Wrasse." I do
not know if there are any other species of fish, or indeed invertebrate that would/could perform such cleaning duties in this part of the world.."
Mick I have seen hammerhead sharks cleaned by king angelfish and barberfish in the Sea of Cortez (El Bajo and Las Animas) and by Clarion angelfish at
Isla San Benedicto in the Revillagigedos. Perhaps these fish provide cleaner services for the bigger rays also, although I have never seen it.
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Hi Ken: Thanks for the knowledge gleaned from first hand. I can now add that info to my limited knowledge base, with permission of course!! Isn't it
magical when one see's such activities for oneself, and can pass on that knowledge. My thanks!!
One of these days I have to get to those dive spots personally, along with the myriads of other locations still on my list. One day, one day!! Thanks
again Ken.
The Ocean is my playground,
And the marine creatures, my playmates!!
Honi soit qui mal y pense!!
Who Cares Who Wins??
www.cortez-explorers.com |
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Bajamick
Junior Nomad
Posts: 60
Registered: 10-20-2009
Location: Underwater as often as possible!!
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Wow, looks like I've hit a nerve.
Your second post seems to deny what you said in your first post:
| Quote: |
So to me, from my own observations and experiences, the rays in general, and here in the Sea of Cortez especially, the Mobula, jump for the two above
mentioned reasons. Fun, and dislodging those parasites that the wrasse cannot, do not, or have not reached. And it must be remembered that there are,
at least to the best of my knowledge, not such animals here in the Sea of Cortez as "Cleaner Wrasse." I do not know if there are any other species of
fish, or indeed invertebrate that would/could perform such cleaning duties in this part of the world..
|
As I read this, it states that you think that mobulas jump because the Cortez lacks cleaning wrasses. That's quite a jump in my opinion. From having
witnessed wrasses cleaning rays to suggesting that they jump due to their absence is a real stretch. You were asked a question and this is your
explanation. Frankly, I don't buy it.
I like the idea that they do so to remove parasites but to go further and state that they do so because parasite removing fish are absent is very
unlikely.
Regarding them doing it for 'fun'.
Of course they do it for fun. In the animal world everything is done either for fun or from fear. Everything that is beneficial is done for fun.
That's how evolution works. First comes a behavior that provides benefit and then we become wired to like it. So saying that something is done for fun
is not very illuminating. On the other hand saying they do it for no other reason than 'fun', I wouldn't agree with that. Hunting in the savannah is
fun but running around with no purpose is not 'fun'.
I am sorry that my criticism has hurt your feelings but those are my thoughts.
There are many improbable statements that have turned out to be true. Perhaps yours is one of them. There is a discussion about continental drift on
another thread. Certainly the people who first concluded that since the east coast of south america fits so nicely into the west coast of africa those
2 continents must have been together at one time. The jeers that came from that suggestion must have been ear splitting. Yet the work from Scripps
expeditions proved them to be right. Perhaps your theory will be successful as well. But to me, it seems very far fetched.
As for your snide remarks about head scratching - save the anger. |
Oh dear me. It seems that there is a lot of confusion here. I would ask you where I state that mobula jump “SOLELY” as a result of there being a lack
of cleaner wrasse here in the Sea of Cortez?? I simply stated that there is an absence of such animals hereabouts. Equally I stated that as far as I
knew, there were no other fish or invertebrates that performed such services. To that I have been put right by Ken Bondy, see below and my reply to
him. You do not have to doubt my explanation, you simply have to read it, and take it on board, or dismiss it out of hand. The choice is yours of
course. So believe me, I was not stretching my observations, as I qualified it later by stating that I have never seen a mobula stationary. They are
always on the move, and in being so, it would be extremely unlikely that a cleaner wrasse (or any animal performing such valuable tasks) anywhere in
the world would leave the protection of the reef and fly out into open ocean where one mostly finds mobula. So please read my text as it was meant to
be. No one else found the same problem understanding other than yourself it seems. So far that is of course.
“Of course they do it for fun?? Come now, I do not know of any scientist, biologist or other “authority” that would state such a thing as “of course”
in that context. I cannot say, nor do I know of anyone else that says, “of course…” It was stated as my speculation, and not as fact.
Equally I would take some discourse with you on the fact that you state that everything in the animal kingdom is done for fun or fear. And everything
that is beneficial is done for fun. Evolution does not work that way, as you state.
The fittest survive, not those having the most fun. If that were the case, I would live to be centuries old as I have fun most days of my life, but
sadly, I am in the evolutionary chain along with the rest of the animal kingdom. Animals do not eat out of fun, nor fear, they eat to survive. Very
few animals, with the exception of the apes and a few other mammals have sixx for fun. They do it to survive and pass on their genes. (I am happy I am
a mammal I might add).
To use your expression, “wired.” We are all wired to survive, not to have fun, and to try to avoid fear whenever possible. It is just that some of us
have more fun in life than others.
Running around in the savannah I am sure is no fun with no purpose, but then again, I would suggest that anything done without a purpose is no fun. Be
that parachuting, scuba diving, running marathons etc, even watching mobula jump or having sex oneself, it should all be done with a purpose in life.
I am being facetious true, but factual at the same time.
Truly, you never hurt my feelings, so there is no requirement for you to apologise. (English spelling there).
Oh so true. Many improbable statements etc. My ex wife stating that she was going to divorce me. Darwins theory of evolution. The missing links from
the oceans to the land. That Baja is a dangerous place. The moon not being made of cheese, to name but a few.
I did like your example though of Abraham Ortelius (I think that’s how one spells his name) in 1590 something if I recall correctly, suggesting that
the continents had separated. They still are separating by the way. It was not Scripps at all, but a geophysicist Jack Oliver, in as late a time as
1968. About the time I was into The Who, Floyd, The Stones, Deep Purple and Jimmy Hendrix etc. Virtually 400 years after Ortelius.
Trust me totally, that statement was not anger. I was being facetious again. Snide maybe, but I had actually deleted where I said something about
wearing boxing gloves also to stop the scratching. That statement was factual, not a tenuous conclusion. If one has to scratch ones head because the
subject matter is beyond ones comprehension (such as scientists/biologists writings) ask questions. Seek answers. Become informed.
Me?? I don’t understand many things in life. Some things I’ll ask questions about. Others I’ll simply let live. Others still, I take Darwin’s thoughts
on board when he was first putting together the Origin of Species by Natural Selection. Again I quote, this time, the man himself, “I think!!
In other words, some things I know, some things I do not, and some things I care little about.
No that was not anger, it was an Englishman extracting the urine.
The Ocean is my playground,
And the marine creatures, my playmates!!
Honi soit qui mal y pense!!
Who Cares Who Wins??
www.cortez-explorers.com |
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sjanny01
Newbie
Posts: 1
Registered: 1-26-2011
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East Cape holds some kind of strange and wonderful happening. This early morning I was awakened by what sounded like a herd of Clydesdales playing
soccer on the beach road. Sounds get distorted on their way up from the beach and later in the day I discovered the sound was coming from large shoals
of rays jumping close to shore. (I live 650 meters~from the water and it was still loud enough to wake me). By afternoon I could see them with my
binoculars and was amazed at the size and activity of the school.
free software download
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Leapin' Lizards! er, Mantas! You really threw a ray of interest in starting this thread Osprey!
Iflyfishformantaswhentheyflybuttheyarehardtocatch
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EMAM
Nomad
Posts: 149
Registered: 2-2-2008
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Lets just all agree that "Who cares why they jump", but all agree that it makes for some beautiful photography
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Bajamick
Junior Nomad
Posts: 60
Registered: 10-20-2009
Location: Underwater as often as possible!!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by EMAM
Lets just all agree that "Who cares why they jump", but all agree that it makes for some beautiful photography
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Bajamick
Junior Nomad
Posts: 60
Registered: 10-20-2009
Location: Underwater as often as possible!!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by EMAM
Lets just all agree that "Who cares why they jump", but all agree that it makes for some beautiful photography
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Thanks for two stunning and beautiful pictures of fish in flight!!
The Ocean is my playground,
And the marine creatures, my playmates!!
Honi soit qui mal y pense!!
Who Cares Who Wins??
www.cortez-explorers.com |
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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Can't agree with "Who cares why they jump".
But I will agree that your images are fine.
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Bajamick
Junior Nomad
Posts: 60
Registered: 10-20-2009
Location: Underwater as often as possible!!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajamick
| Quote: | Originally posted by EMAM
Lets just all agree that "Who cares why they jump", but all agree that it makes for some beautiful photography
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Bajamick
Junior Nomad
Posts: 60
Registered: 10-20-2009
Location: Underwater as often as possible!!
Member Is Offline
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SORRY Eman!! It seems my skills with a computer are not as good as my say, diving skills!! Somehow it looks like I have tried to poach your picures
under my name. I apologise totally. I was trying to state that I liked and enjoyed your pictures.
People out there, SADLY I did not take the pictures. Again Eman, I apologise. (English spelling BTW)
The Ocean is my playground,
And the marine creatures, my playmates!!
Honi soit qui mal y pense!!
Who Cares Who Wins??
www.cortez-explorers.com |
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EMAM
Nomad
Posts: 149
Registered: 2-2-2008
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Can't agree with "Who cares why they jump".
But I will agree that your images are fine. |
Thanks guys, glad you liked them!
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajamick
SORRY Eman!! It seems my skills with a computer are not as good as my say, diving skills!! Somehow it looks like I have tried to poach your picures
under my name. I apologise totally. I was trying to state that I liked and enjoyed your pictures.
People out there, SADLY I did not take the pictures. Again Eman, I apologise. (English spelling BTW) |
That is a very nice thing you posted---but Pat and Cindy do have their marks on all of their beautiful photography. But too many people just don't
think about using photos---and obviously, you do think about it. :yes
If you want to see more, including some that look like the bears are going to have one of them for lunch,  check out their photo galleries---they are both really good photographers. http://www.everymilesamemory.com
This is one of my favorite photos --- it was taken in Bahia Asuncion ---It is Pat with Jisreal during some bike trials
Sorry for the small hijack. 
Can't wait to have them back in Bahia Asuncion!:
[Edited on 1-26-2011 by DianaT]
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