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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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To me what you (Cisco, ToneArt, Ateo, et al) reflect is extreme gullibility coupled with anger in your youth, and mind-boggling resentment and, again
anger, in your older age, neither being a very wise, logical, or positive reaction to "life" to my way of thinking.
I don't recall ever experiencing any of that, but perhaps I purposely forget the "bad", the "evil", and the misfortune?!?!?! I grew up in a
single-Mom household, and she was seldom home, often out of the Country, and we had little money--------so what (?)---------it was no big deal and
just the way it was. Actually, I seldom even thought about it. I just got on with life, learning what worked for me in keeping me out of trouble
with my fellow man, but yet prospering and learning what I thought I needed to know to be happy, and make others close to me happy. That worked for
me, and mine.
Most of the stuff you write about just bewilders me, but I don't think I really WANT to understand most of it since it appears to produce such anger
and resentment in each of you.
To each his own.
Carry on.
Barry
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5900
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Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.  | To me what you (Cisco, ToneArt, Ateo, et al) reflect is extreme gullibility coupled with anger in your youth, and mind-boggling resentment and, again
anger, in your older age, neither being a very wise, logical, or positive reaction to "life" to my way of thinking.
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You are totally wrong in your assessment of me. Too many things wrong with your statement and I'm not gonna spend the time typing a rebuttal on my
phone.
If I wrote something so horribly incorrect about your I would hope you would ask for a an apology. 
[Edited on 2-10-2015 by Ateo]
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Cisco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4196
Registered: 12-30-2010
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| Quote: Originally posted by Barry A. | To me what you (Cisco, ToneArt, Ateo, et al) reflect is extreme gullibility coupled with anger in your youth, and mind-boggling resentment and, again
anger, in your older age, neither being a very wise, logical, or positive reaction to "life" to my way of thinking.
I don't recall ever experiencing any of that, but perhaps I purposely forget the "bad", the "evil", and the misfortune?!?!?! I grew up in a
single-Mom household, and she was seldom home, often out of the Country, and we had little money--------so what (?)---------it was no big deal and
just the way it was. Actually, I seldom even thought about it. I just got on with life, learning what worked for me in keeping me out of trouble
with my fellow man, but yet prospering and learning what I thought I needed to know to be happy, and make others close to me happy. That worked for
me, and mine.
Most of the stuff you write about just bewilders me, but I don't think I really WANT to understand most of it since it appears to produce such anger
and resentment in each of you.
To each his own.
Carry on.
Barry
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Barry, what are you talking about?
What anger do you see in my above post?
The only connection that I can make regarding myself, Tony and Jon is that
we are without belief in a deity.
What's up?
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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My first wife was a saint. I worshipped her. But no miracle could save our marriage.
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Barry A.
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Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: Originally posted by Ateo | | Quote: Originally posted by Barry A. | To me what you (Cisco, ToneArt, Ateo, et al) reflect is extreme gullibility coupled with anger in your youth, and mind-boggling resentment and, again
anger, in your older age, neither being a very wise, logical, or positive reaction to "life" to my way of thinking.
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You are wrong in your assessment of me. So many things wrong with this statement and Im not gonna spend the time typing a rebuttal on my phone. If I
wrote something so horribly wrong about your character I would hope you would ask for a an apology. |
What I wrote, Ateo, is just my impression, not necessarily the truth. I would NOT ask anybody for "an apology" for speaking what they thought to be
true, but when inclined I will defend my self. If I offended you, then I do apologize-----it was not my intention to offend, just to reflect my
honest conclusions based on what you occasionally write. I am pretty sure you feel similar about some (or all?) of my thoughts.
Barry
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cisco | | Quote: Originally posted by Barry A. | To me what you (Cisco, ToneArt, Ateo, et al) reflect is extreme gullibility coupled with anger in your youth, and mind-boggling resentment and, again
anger, in your older age, neither being a very wise, logical, or positive reaction to "life" to my way of thinking.
I don't recall ever experiencing any of that, but perhaps I purposely forget the "bad", the "evil", and the misfortune?!?!?! I grew up in a
single-Mom household, and she was seldom home, often out of the Country, and we had little money--------so what (?)---------it was no big deal and
just the way it was. Actually, I seldom even thought about it. I just got on with life, learning what worked for me in keeping me out of trouble
with my fellow man, but yet prospering and learning what I thought I needed to know to be happy, and make others close to me happy. That worked for
me, and mine.
Most of the stuff you write about just bewilders me, but I don't think I really WANT to understand most of it since it appears to produce such anger
and resentment in each of you.
To each his own.
Carry on.
Barry
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Barry, what are you talking about?
What anger do you see in my above post?
The only connection that I can make regarding myself, Tony and Jon is that
we are without belief in a deity.
What's up?
|
You guys in particular seem to put forth so much negative feelings and criticism of all things Conservative, Religious, American, etc. etc. that I
probably over-reacted out of frustration that people actually do feel the way you guys do-------it just boggles my mind!!!
Again, it was not my intention to "offend", just to reflect my frustration and bewilderment with where you appear (to me) to be coming from.
Nothing personal was meant----hope none is taken.
Barry
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64805
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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It is really sad how negative things have become in the past 6 or so years. We are losing so much hope and faith in the things that used to bring us
together as a nation. We are far more divided and polarized. I long for an administration that unites our country instead of dividing, grouping,
'special interesting' everyone.
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K | | It is really sad how negative things have become in the past 6 or so years. We are losing so much hope and faith in the things that used to bring us
together as a nation. We are far more divided and polarized. I long for an administration that unites our country instead of dividing, grouping,
'special interesting' everyone. |
I believe there is a Congress that does a pretty good job of putting their foot down and not compromising. They do a pretty well at dividing,
grouping and (sic) 'special interesting' everyone.
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: Originally posted by Barry A. | | Quote: Originally posted by Cisco | | Quote: Originally posted by Barry A. | To me what you (Cisco, ToneArt, Ateo, et al) reflect is extreme gullibility coupled with anger in your youth, and mind-boggling resentment and, again
anger, in your older age, neither being a very wise, logical, or positive reaction to "life" to my way of thinking.
I don't recall ever experiencing any of that, but perhaps I purposely forget the "bad", the "evil", and the misfortune?!?!?! I grew up in a
single-Mom household, and she was seldom home, often out of the Country, and we had little money--------so what (?)---------it was no big deal and
just the way it was. Actually, I seldom even thought about it. I just got on with life, learning what worked for me in keeping me out of trouble
with my fellow man, but yet prospering and learning what I thought I needed to know to be happy, and make others close to me happy. That worked for
me, and mine.
Most of the stuff you write about just bewilders me, but I don't think I really WANT to understand most of it since it appears to produce such anger
and resentment in each of you.
To each his own.
Carry on.
Barry
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Barry, what are you talking about?
What anger do you see in my above post?
The only connection that I can make regarding myself, Tony and Jon is that
we are without belief in a deity.
What's up?
|
You guys in particular seem to put forth so much negative feelings and criticism of all things Conservative, Religious, American, etc. etc. that I
probably over-reacted out of frustration that people actually do feel the way you guys do-------it just boggles my mind!!!
Again, it was not my intention to "offend", just to reflect my frustration and bewilderment with where you appear (to me) to be coming from.
Nothing personal was meant----hope none is taken.
Barry |
Why would you expect everyone to agree with you Barry? After all, the fight over religion and politics (don't understand American) has been going on
forever.
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Cisco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4196
Registered: 12-30-2010
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by Barry A. | | Quote: Originally posted by Cisco | | Quote: Originally posted by Barry A. | To me what you (Cisco, ToneArt, Ateo, et al) reflect is extreme gullibility coupled with anger in your youth, and mind-boggling resentment and, again
anger, in your older age, neither being a very wise, logical, or positive reaction to "life" to my way of thinking.
I don't recall ever experiencing any of that, but perhaps I purposely forget the "bad", the "evil", and the misfortune?!?!?! I grew up in a
single-Mom household, and she was seldom home, often out of the Country, and we had little money--------so what (?)---------it was no big deal and
just the way it was. Actually, I seldom even thought about it. I just got on with life, learning what worked for me in keeping me out of trouble
with my fellow man, but yet prospering and learning what I thought I needed to know to be happy, and make others close to me happy. That worked for
me, and mine.
Most of the stuff you write about just bewilders me, but I don't think I really WANT to understand most of it since it appears to produce such anger
and resentment in each of you.
To each his own.
Carry on.
Barry
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Barry, what are you talking about?
What anger do you see in my above post?
The only connection that I can make regarding myself, Tony and Jon is that
we are without belief in a deity.
What's up?
|
You guys in particular seem to put forth so much negative feelings and criticism of all things Conservative, Religious, American, etc. etc. that I
probably over-reacted out of frustration that people actually do feel the way you guys do-------it just boggles my mind!!!
Again, it was not my intention to "offend", just to reflect my frustration and bewilderment with where you appear (to me) to be coming from.
Nothing personal was meant----hope none is taken.
Barry |
"I will defend my self."
Barry what are you defending yourself against?
You seem to have a lot on your plate that is coming through as something else. Whatever it is you may skip "our" posts and perhaps you will feel
better.
In reviewing the thread I see nothing that would offend a normal person or anything regarding gullibility with the exception of childhood innocence
which was certainly being abused by the religious community at that time.
I will not speak to my feelings regarding your posts with the exception that you just dropped a notch in my estimation of you, and, sorry Barry, I
really don't care what your estimation of myself is. As you mentioned once before we live in different universe's and I'm fine with that.
Sorry your feelings got out of control, happens to us all at one point or another.
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5900
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
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Not sure what this means. I actually think you are one of the sane people on here that can argue without character assassinations. When I read that
I was "gullible and angry" I was like, WHAT THE HELL IS HE TALKING ABOUT? Nothing could be further from the truth.
I was raised in a loving environment and my lack of gullibility is what made me question what I was being told about Jesus being my lord and personal
saviour at the age of 14. This led to an honest evaluation of the claims of Christianity, and later to the claims of other religions. Gullible is
something I've never really been.
And angry in my old age? I'm 39.
Day in, day out, I'm a loving, chill dude. I don't go around yelling at people due to anger issues.
When it comes to religion, yeah, I can get angry. Who wouldn't be angry at the horrific atrocities religion has committed on this world? How many
gay kids have committed suicide because of the evil program that has been placed in the minds of their parents that tells them their kids are an
abomination?
Was that a run on sentence?
I'm off the soap box.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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Morality is a social concept. There is no right or wrong outside of what a group of people agree to believe is right or wrong. Our contemporary world
is not as isolated as it used to be and same values are now pretty much accepted everywhere. But older cultures often had values completely different
than others. it's hard for a European to comprehend how human sacrifice, removing a beating heart from an individual, could be seen as positive. Yet
it was. Pharaoh burials that included all of his living wives is another example. In the Polynesian islands a young man was taught sexual
gratification by his mothers sister before marriage. That was considered a social responsibility. The fascinating list is endless.
So we know that morality varies both between cultures and within a culture over time.
Given that fact what good does it do to judge historical actions by the values we have now. Junipero Serra is being 'crucified' for performing acts
which in his time were considered laudable. How did he know that mankind would change it's mind. And you know what? This is not the end of the road.
Our values will some day be villified and ridiculed as we are doing now. It's an endless journey with no compass that points to true north. That's the
nature of morality.
Consider this. We utilize all living things for our own benefit. We grow animals purely for our own needs. Raise them, fatten them up, and slaughter
them for food. We bring them into the world only for our needs. And that goes for virtually the entire planet. Fish are being farmed. Land is cleared
of land and plants to suit our needs. If all living things have a right for life then something is wrong with this picture. All men are created equal
but nothing else is?
So I can see how in the distant future our generation will be accused of being barbaric.
But really, morals are a waste of time to spend time on. They are only valuable in facilitating a society to make it interact smoothly. If everyone's
on the same page we have less friction. It's the grease that helps the machine run smoothly. Period. There is nothing further that morality provides.
[Edited on 2-10-2015 by Skipjack Joe]
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Skeptical
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Barry! I am really surprised and disappointed in your broad brush depiction of the four of us. I thought you were more objective than that.
It is absolutely beyond my comprehension that you could read my post and not see anything but Love and service to Humanity. I know I expressed that
well. Yes, I do express skepticism of Religion but I also leave judgment open because "who knows?"
It contains no negativity other than the experience I underwent as a child. Contrary to the fate of most of the other boys on that ranch, who either
went to prison or died young, it made me stronger of character. That experience produced a positive, loving adult who observed the horrible, abusive,
Evangelical hypocrites and vowed to NEVER be like them. That is so apparent in my post!
You know this about me Barry: Through private conversations, you learned about my local volunteering with Hospice; being on the Board of Directors of
the local Arts Council; expressing love and joy though my visual art, Jazz trumpet playing and writing. The feedback from performing validates what it
is that I put out.
Mulegeneos were aware of all the contributions I made to the Mulege locals after devastating floods, through the Rotary and by contributions through
Engineer Mike.
Some Nomads and Antonio (Baja Cactus) is aware of the various donations I made to his calls for help; the little girl who needed a heart transplant;
the woman's family who was shot and killed in her own restaurant in El Rosario. I did not know them. That is called compassion. This is what Liberals
do! We experience or observe the tragedies in our world (the negatives, which we can't stand) and turn that around to do what we can to help (the
positives).
You don't ever have to agree with me, but your blast was not about agreement or debate. It was about your perception of (through misreading) my points
and projecting your own negativity. I guess Money is a God to some. 
[Edited on 2-10-2015 by toneart]
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woody with a view
PITA Nomad
Posts: 15939
Registered: 11-8-2004
Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Everchangin'
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if I need something to believe in I believe i'll go surf. then I believe i'll have a beer!
the bible is based on a bunch of campfire stories told for thousands of years on trying to be a better example of a human. nothing wrong with that.
resurrections, water to wine, devils? SERIOUSLY?
this song sums it up pretty well:
by XTC:
Dear God, hope You got the letter
And I pray You can make it better down here
I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer
But all the people that You made in Your image
See them starving on their feet
'Cause they don't get enough to eat
From God, I can't believe in You
Dear God, sorry to disturb You
But I feel that I should be heard loud and clear
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears
And all the people that You made in Your image
See them fighting in the street
'Cause they can't make opinions meet
About God, I can't believe in You
Did You make disease, and the diamond blue?
Did You make mankind after we made You?
And the devil too
Dear God, don't know if You noticed
But Your name is on a lot of quotes in this book
Us crazy humans wrote it, You should take a look
And all the people that You made in Your image
Still believing that junk is true
Well I know it ain't and so do You
Dear God, I can't believe in, I don't believe in
I won't believe in Heaven and Hell
No saints, no sinners, no devil as well
No pearly gates, no thorny crown
You're always letting us humans down
The wars You bring, the babes You drown
Those lost at sea and never found
And it's the same the whole world 'round
The hurt I see helps to compound
That the Father, Son and Holy Ghost
Is just somebody's unholy hoax
And if You're up there You'll perceive
That my heart's here upon my sleeve
If there's one thing I don't believe in
It's You, dear God
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Mexitron
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3397
Registered: 9-21-2003
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy!
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| Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe | Morality is a social concept. There is no right or wrong outside of what a group of people agree to believe is right or wrong. Our contemporary world
is not as isolated as it used to be and same values are now pretty much accepted everywhere. But older cultures often had values completely different
than others. it's hard for a European to comprehend how human sacrifice, removing a beating heart from an individual, could be seen as positive. Yet
it was. Pharaoh burials that included all of his living wives is another example. In the Polynesian islands a young man was taught sexual
gratification by his mothers sister before marriage. That was considered a social responsibility. The fascinating list is endless.
So we know that morality varies both between cultures and within a culture over time.
Given that fact what good does it do to judge historical actions by the values we have now. Junipero Serra is being 'crucified' for performing acts
which in his time were considered laudable. How did he know that mankind would change it's mind. And you know what? This is not the end of the road.
Our values will some day be villified and ridiculed as we are doing now. It's an endless journey with no compass that points to true north. That's the
nature of morality.
Consider this. We utilize all living things for our own benefit. We grow animals purely for our own needs. Raise them, fatten them up, and slaughter
them for food. We bring them into the world only for our needs. And that goes for virtually the entire planet. Fish are being farmed. Land is cleared
of land and plants to suit our needs. If all living things have a right for life then something is wrong with this picture. All men are created equal
but nothing else is?
So I can see how in the distant future our generation will be accused of being barbaric.
But really, morals are a waste of time to spend time on. They are only valuable in facilitating a society to make it interact smoothly. If everyone's
on the same page we have less friction. It's the grease that helps the machine run smoothly. Period. There is nothing further that morality provides.
[Edited on 2-10-2015 by Skipjack Joe] |
Beautifully said, and, snicker, very Taoist if I may say (if you've read the I Ching its truths are as stark). Good and bad are just that in the big
picture, they both interact to allow "the play".
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5900
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
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Woody, always loved that song, although I considered it blasphemous and evil when I was growing up. Glad I got past that..........
And yep Skipjack, morality is a social concept.
Always fun to imagine the morals of the year 2500. I'm sure we will look back and be horrified that we were eating animals. I'm guilty.
That's if we can make it another 500 years.
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe | Morality is a social concept. There is no right or wrong outside of what a group of people agree to believe is right or wrong. Our contemporary world
is not as isolated as it used to be and same values are now pretty much accepted everywhere. But older cultures often had values completely different
than others. it's hard for a European to comprehend how human sacrifice, removing a beating heart from an individual, could be seen as positive. Yet
it was. Pharaoh burials that included all of his living wives is another example. In the Polynesian islands a young man was taught sexual
gratification by his mothers sister before marriage. That was considered a social responsibility. The fascinating list is endless.
So we know that morality varies both between cultures and within a culture over time.
Given that fact what good does it do to judge historical actions by the values we have now. Junipero Serra is being 'crucified' for performing acts
which in his time were considered laudable. How did he know that mankind would change it's mind. And you know what? This is not the end of the road.
Our values will some day be villified and ridiculed as we are doing now. It's an endless journey with no compass that points to true north. That's the
nature of morality.
Consider this. We utilize all living things for our own benefit. We grow animals purely for our own needs. Raise them, fatten them up, and slaughter
them for food. We bring them into the world only for our needs. And that goes for virtually the entire planet. Fish are being farmed. Land is cleared
of land and plants to suit our needs. If all living things have a right for life then something is wrong with this picture. All men are created equal
but nothing else is?
So I can see how in the distant future our generation will be accused of being barbaric.
But really, morals are a waste of time to spend time on. They are only valuable in facilitating a society to make it interact smoothly. If everyone's
on the same page we have less friction. It's the grease that helps the machine run smoothly. Period. There is nothing further that morality provides.
[Edited on 2-10-2015 by Skipjack Joe] |
Very, very well expressed and I agree with most of it.
My question is this. Yes, the Native American moral system conflicted heavily with the European's moral system, and the Native American's paid a
heavy price. And no, maybe we cannot use our moral system today to criticize those who came before.
However, IMHO, while I believe the idea of declaring any one a saint is silly, it is very meaningful to a lot of people. And in doing this, there is
an element of going back and approving of what the one culture did to the other culture and an implied acceptance of the one morality over the other
morality.
Torquemada was a true believer and among his peers, his work was not only moral, but he was saving souls. And I am sure someone can find some miracles
somewhere as they always do, so maybe he should be next.
While maybe we cannot judge either one by today's morals and standards, I just think we should not glorify them either as that becomes a current
acceptance of their values.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by Ateo |
Always fun to imagine the morals of the year 2500. I'm sure we will look back and be horrified that we were eating animals. I'm guilty.
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I actually wish I hadn't written that. But, it's done.
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
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Why in the world would you be sorry? It is a great read and food for more thought.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64805
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: Originally posted by Ateo | Woody, always loved that song, although I considered it blasphemous and evil when I was growing up. Glad I got past that..........
And yep Skipjack, morality is a social concept.
Always fun to imagine the morals of the year 2500. I'm sure we will look back and be horrified that we were eating animals. I'm guilty.
That's if we can make it another 500 years. |
Jon, if we weren't supposed to eat animals (including fish), then why did God make them taste so good?   
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