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motoged
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6481
Registered: 7-31-2006
Location: Kamloops, BC
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gettin' Better
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
A conservative will check and make sure the water is deep enough to dive into.  If you're gonna dive off a bridge, be sure about the depth.
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Not bad advice.....how deep was the water "hiding" weapons of mass destruction?
This "either-or" type of thinking is rather limited and is part of the problem at times. Thinking outside the box isn't necessarily a subversive or
terrorist practice.
Now, to apply this to the purpose of this forum (Baja)....is there factual information as to whether fish tacos are superior to beef or goat tacos
.... or is it a matter of personal preference and taste?
Me? I like good fish tacos anytime....but cabeza de vaca (sp?) is a wonderful taco, too.
Don't believe everything you think....
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Paula
Super Nomad
Posts: 2219
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
| Quote: | Originally posted by Paula
Keep talking, Ged! If I had chosen to express my opinion on this thread it would have been pretty much what you wrote. But I'm tired of reading
Barry A.'s replies every single time I speak about anything more significant than the weather
I met a surgical oncologist in Cuba who evaluates a patient's needs and then crafts the tools he need to operate at home in the evening. A doctor
friend watched the surgery and said it was amazing. Everyone in Cuba has equal care. In the US a poor mother of 6 just died on a waiting room
floor.
So there are problems everywhere, just different problems. |
I think they shut that LA area hospital down for a number of problems similar to the lady dying on the floor. It had a record dating back many years
of problems they wouldn't or couldn't fixed. But I did see in the paper where they may open it up again. Will the problems be fixed, we'll see.
I don't think I would care to have a Dr. make his operating tools at home and then use them on me unless it was an absolute emergency. I don't think
that would be legal in the US. I'll stick with my United Healthcare policy and my $20 co-pay. |
The death I was referring to was in New York a day or so ago at a hospital with a history of problems that continues to operate. The woman lay on the
floor for two hours-- several employees walked by and ignored her. After one poked at her with a foot and she didn't respond, they figured she was
dead. Records were altered as to her time of arrival to avoid embarrassment for the employees. The surveillance camera told the true story. So it
happens from time to time on both coasts, and maybe in the middle of the country too.
The surgery in Cuba was on a woman suffering from lung cancer. She was better off for the doctor's determination to help her in spite of a lack of
equipment in a large central hospital in Havana.
Again, there are problems in all places, just different problems. I wish we were as willing to recognize our own as we are those of others.
Now I'm going to go take care of my stiff neck
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Paula
Keep talking, Ged! If I had chosen to express my opinion on this thread it would have been pretty much what you wrote. But I'm tired of reading
Barry A.'s replies every single time I speak about anything more significant than the weather
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Paula------I try only to comment when someone makes what I think is a non-Baja political comment outside the "OFF TOPIC" arena that I don't agree
with. If my comments offend you please understand that is not my intention. I simply am uncomfortable letting statements that I think are
off-the-wall stand without some sort of rebuttal, less others think that we all agree with what is said.
If this is not proper, I hope that the monitors will let me know.
Barry A.
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Getting carved up on a kitchen table isn't my idea of quality medical treatment.
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Paula
Super Nomad
Posts: 2219
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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Barry
I let so many political posts and gratuitous slams against people who don't fit the prevalent conservative thinking here pass by without responding.
And it isn't so much your comments that offend me as the fact that you belittle the posters you don't agree with. Nevertheless, I was rude, and it
wasn't even me that you called silly (this time:biggrin
Cypress
The lady was not carved up on a kitchen table, she was operated on in hospital where doctors perform near miracles with no supplies thanks to the
inadequacies of their government. I do not mean to imply that Cuban healthcare is better than ours. But the doctors are as well trained as US
doctors. They are paid the government wage, so most of them drive cabs on their days off to earn American $$ so that they can afford to continue to
be doctors. Many people would just drive the cab and forget the medical career, but these are dedicated people. By pointing to the recent death in
the NY hospital I did not say that our system is inadequate, but one could see that we could use a little more humanity here and there in our society.
I wish you would read more carefully before you respond. The point of both of my posts was that nobody, and no country is perfect. No one gains by a
defensive stance in which one side proclaims itself to be above criticism. I think this is one of our founding principles. Happy Fourth of July.
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Bajafun777
Super Nomad
Posts: 1103
Registered: 9-13-2006
Location: Rosarito & California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enjoying Life with Wife In Mexico, Easy on The Easy
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Well, I get tired of hearing how our founding fathers intended our Constitution to be read and understood. I am part conservative and part liberal
but I do not run from a fight, agree just to get along, hope that bad people and bad things will just stop, and never ever depend on the winos, dinos,
and dingbats to tell me what the Democratic Party is and what it should be. You can be Democratic and believe in family, support your country,
willing to die for you believe or to save those you love, and understand there is nothing wrong with a "hand-up" but not a continual "handout." I
got a lot of friends and relatives that are Republicans and very very conservative, we tease at each other constantly but remain friends over
politics, as we all know where our hearts and believes are. All countries have their problems and I like visiting different countries but nowhere
repeat nowhere is there a better country than the USA. We therefore, must all work harder in these trying times of uncertain future events to keep it
that way. Take care Nomads and Happy Fourth of July, God Bless American and may we make the world a better place despite our politicans (here lies
our real problems and divisions). Later----bajafun777
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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Paula, Must have missed something while reading your post But, to the best of
my knowledge, people are not flocking to Cuba for medical treatment or anything else.Seems to me that they're risking their lives attempting to reach the USA.
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
Member Is Offline
Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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Through my life I have made the swing from "Liberal" to "Conservative" and now have ended up somewhere in the middle. I have come to the conclusion
that neither side has all the answers and the reality is that only the political hacks in Washington are the true winners in the war they create
between the two sides. A "war" where they prefer to isolate us to the two extremes where rhetoric is much more valuable than substance and both
parties are guilty of putting politics above issues. Most issues are neither "liberal" or "conservative" but "human" issues requiring thoughtful and
honest debate, responsible and long term planning and a willingness to take some medicine which may or may not be pleasant or sweet tasting in the
short term. As they are more interested in getting re-elected, no politician wants to be credited with handing out any foul tasting medicine. They
just want to be loved and re-elected.
As far as health care, I have abandoned my US based HMO and only see doctors here in Mexico for the last four years since an HMO "killed" my fourteen
year old daughter. Medical care is great in the US for extreme situations and urgent care. My 14 year old daughter went into cardiac arrest under
"managed" care when she didn't meet the "criteria" for an EKG by HMO standards when suffering from chest pain and shortness of breath. The HMO doctor
listened to her heart and said she was only suffering from minor anxiety. We asked for an EKG but were told that wasn't "needed" or covered and sent
her home with Tylenol.
An EKG would have picked up the Long QT syndrome causing her pain and shortness of breath.
The HMO went on to pay several hundred thousand dollars over the next few weeks when she was flown hours later to LA Children's hospital in Los
Angeles and the ICU care she received for those few weeks was world class and top notch with a doctor and nurse assigned to care for only her, with
all the latest technology around to tell us what was happening with her and explain that she was now brain dead.
I went to the hospital here in Rosarito last year with the same symptoms and was given an EKG without even requesting it. After several hours I was
sent home with some heart medication and new blood pressure medication. The total cost of the visit, care, EKG and medicine was less than $70 USD.
If my daughter could have just had some common sense care that could override HMO managed care guidelines she would still be with us today.
The US has the best medical technology available today. It does not have the best day to day managed care as HMO's put profits above lives. It is a
calculated algorithm and since they passed legislation protecting the HMO's from lawsuits they have "tweaked" that algorithm to take bigger risks and
offer less standard health care. Doctors are rewarded with bonuses for keeping managed care costs down by denying such expenses such as EKG's. Health
care dollars need to be managed to give the best care possible while keeping the costs affordable and it is not a "liberal" or "conservative" issue.
It is a human issue and I am tired of the politicians playing political football with it.
OK, I am done. rant over.
Have a happy fourth all you Nomads, in and out of Mexico...
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fulano
Banned
Posts: 496
Registered: 3-31-2008
Location: Ramona, CA
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Paula
Everyone in Cuba has equal care. ..The surgery in Cuba was on a woman suffering from lung cancer. She was better off for the doctor's determination
to help her in spite of a lack of equipment in a large central hospital in Havana. |
| Quote: | Originally posted by motoged
France has a superior public medical health system to the US, as do many other countries (Canada, Britain, and Cuba to name a few).
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You and motoged should meet offline and get your stories about Cuban health care syncronized.
For the record, Cuba has a dismal healthcare system. They have one modern hospital in Havana for tourists and dignitaries to get foreign currency. The
natives can't get into it. The rest of the Cubans can't even get aspirin. Doctors who have escaped Cuban on rafts report that Cuba's infant mortality
rate is so low because if they even detect a problem with a fetus, they force the woman to have an abortion, whereas in the US we will try anything to
save the baby.
http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm
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sylens
Senior Nomad
Posts: 584
Registered: 4-6-2005
Location: Ensenada
Member Is Offline
Mood: ando bajando
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
Through my life I have made the swing from "Liberal" to "Conservative" and now have ended up somewhere in the middle. I have come to the conclusion
that neither side has all the answers and the reality is that only the political hacks in Washington are the true winners in the war they create
between the two sides. A "war" where they prefer to isolate us to the two extremes where rhetoric is much more valuable than substance and both
parties are guilty of putting politics above issues. Most issues are neither "liberal" or "conservative" but "human" issues requiring thoughtful and
honest debate, responsible and long term planning and a willingness to take some medicine which may or may not be pleasant or sweet tasting in the
short term. As they are more interested in getting re-elected, no politician wants to be credited with handing out any foul tasting medicine. They
just want to be loved and re-elected.
As far as health care, I have abandoned my US based HMO and only see doctors here in Mexico for the last four years since an HMO "killed" my fourteen
year old daughter. Medical care is great in the US for extreme situations and urgent care. My 14 year old daughter went into cardiac arrest under
"managed" care when she didn't meet the "criteria" for an EKG by HMO standards when suffering from chest pain and shortness of breath. The HMO doctor
listened to her heart and said she was only suffering from minor anxiety. We asked for an EKG but were told that wasn't "needed" or covered and sent
her home with Tylenol.
An EKG would have picked up the Long QT syndrome causing her pain and shortness of breath.
The HMO went on to pay several hundred thousand dollars over the next few weeks when she was flown hours later to LA Children's hospital in Los
Angeles and the ICU care she received for those few weeks was world class and top notch with a doctor and nurse assigned to care for only her, with
all the latest technology around to tell us what was happening with her and explain that she was now brain dead.
I went to the hospital here in Rosarito last year with the same symptoms and was given an EKG without even requesting it. After several hours I was
sent home with some heart medication and new blood pressure medication. The total cost of the visit, care, EKG and medicine was less than $70 USD.
If my daughter could have just had some common sense care that could override HMO managed care guidelines she would still be with us today.
The US has the best medical technology available today. It does not have the best day to day managed care as HMO's put profits above lives. It is a
calculated algorithm and since they passed legislation protecting the HMO's from lawsuits they have "tweaked" that algorithm to take bigger risks and
offer less standard health care. Doctors are rewarded with bonuses for keeping managed care costs down by denying such expenses such as EKG's. Health
care dollars need to be managed to give the best care possible while keeping the costs affordable and it is not a "liberal" or "conservative" issue.
It is a human issue and I am tired of the politicians playing political football with it.
OK, I am done. rant over.
Have a happy fourth all you Nomads, in and out of Mexico... |
i am so sorry to hear of your experience. i am hopeful that we will be seeing more outrage about incidents such as the one you described. we need to
display outrage and a patriotic insistence that the usa is and must be better than that when it comes to the health care available to its residents.
jmho as a proudly liberal ex-pat.
lili
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motoged
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6481
Registered: 7-31-2006
Location: Kamloops, BC
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gettin' Better
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Bajagringo,
I am so sorry to hear of your family experience.
You and a few others have more eloquently elaborated on some of my original comments on this issue, and I appreciate your comments.
This thread started as a comment on a 'Real Mexico" concept and I threw out some economical-political opinions (as I am want to do from time-to-time).
It is NOT about people "rushing" to different countries....a bit of a simplistic rebuttal.
I have lived in the USA as a child (California....without a "K") and have great memories of that. I have traveled throughout all of the US west of the
Mississippi (except for Alaska....as BC has it all and is my front yard). I do not see Canada as a socialist country, and others who have any true
sense of it know that it is not.
The bipolar political spectrum sets up this "us vs them" scenario which is so limiting....
Barry A. ....what we have in common are at least two things: we love the Baja, and we make comments to some posts which pique our sensibilities and
we can't help but respond.
I will (jokingly) suggest a survey:
Which are Best???:
A) Fish tacos.... for the liberals (as fish are wishy-washy and constantly giving into the tide, and can't take a stand as they have no feet)
B) Beef tacos ....for the conservatives....(full of bull and headstrong preferring to charge the red cape rather than wonder or determine if it is
truly a threat)
Politics and religion: two topics to usually avoid in many conversations.
Don't believe everything you think....
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Paula
Super Nomad
Posts: 2219
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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BajaGringo, I too am saddened by your story. One thing I think we'll all agree on is that what happened to your daughter shouldn't have happened
anywhere, to anyone. Ever.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Paula
Barry
I let so many political posts and gratuitous slams against people who don't fit the prevalent conservative thinking here pass by without responding.
And it isn't so much your comments that offend me as the fact that you belittle the posters you don't agree with. Nevertheless, I was rude, and it
wasn't even me that you called silly (this time:biggrin
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Paula-------I see your point. The word "belittle" that you apply to me is startling-----I need to think about that one. I guess I need to check out
the water depth more before I jump in.
To those who I may have insulted I apologize------but I don't apologize for my Conservative views-------they are just part of who I am. I DO have
some Liberal friends who tolerate me, but some have drifted away in inexplicable anger------I have a hard time understanding that------Liberals have
never made me "angry", they just frustrate me and leave me incredulous.
Why are so many Liberals so "angry"? (this has now drifted into the
OFF-TOPIC category, I suppose)
I will try to be more careful in the future. Thanks Paula, and Moto, etc.
Cheers, Barry
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guadalupe
Junior Nomad
Posts: 27
Registered: 6-26-2008
Member Is Offline
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I am so sorry
BG - I too am very saddened by your story and your loss. My sister just retired last year after working for 28 years as a pediatric surgeon and has
been saying the very same things for a long time. She is looking to relocate to southern Mexico to a small community where she can (in her words) go
back to being a doctor, something she felt she was not allowed to do in her last several years working under the HMO system of medicine.
Your little girl is watching down on you. You will see her again one day.
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
Member Is Offline
Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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Thanks for the kind thoughts and to those of you who sent me some very nice messages via U2U. I wasn't searching for sympathy but your thoughts and
gestures mean a lot. It is a process and I am still getting through it.
Hopefully one day we can find the right mixture of tort reform and corporate philosophy to reach a more balanced and fair health care solution. Health
care is a business but to compare it to General Motors or Sony is ludicrous.
We can live without a new car or a big screen TV. Health care is something we all need eventually in our lives and to treat is solely as a profit
machine is to lose a sense of our humanity as a society that claims to be the greatest nation on earth. A great nation is one that not only provides
opportunities for the strongest, but also cares for the weakest.
I don't hear any real answers or long term solutions today - just more rhetoric. Both sides of the aisle in Washington are sold out to the board rooms
of the health care industry today. We need some new faces and fresh voices.
Spending more time and money at home instead of nation building abroad would go a long way IMHO.
But what do I know? I am just a bitter old man who lost his daughter to the current system in place...
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gpm414
Junior Nomad
Posts: 67
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Summer: Oregon Winter: Baja
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
Thanks for the kind thoughts and to those of you who sent me some very nice messages via U2U. I wasn't searching for sympathy but your thoughts and
gestures mean a lot. It is a process and I am still getting through it.
Hopefully one day we can find the right mixture of tort reform and corporate philosophy to reach a more balanced and fair health care solution. Health
care is a business but to compare it to General Motors or Sony is ludicrous.
We can live without a new car or a big screen TV. Health care is something we all need eventually in our lives and to treat is solely as a profit
machine is to lose a sense of our humanity as a society that claims to be the greatest nation on earth. A great nation is one that not only provides
opportunities for the strongest, but also cares for the weakest.
I don't hear any real answers or long term solutions today - just more rhetoric. Both sides of the aisle in Washington are sold out to the board rooms
of the health care industry today. We need some new faces and fresh voices.
Spending more time and money at home instead of nation building abroad would go a long way IMHO.
But what do I know? I am just a bitter old man who lost his daughter to the current system in place... |
I totally agree with what you have expressed so well. Will we ever put the well beiing of our citizens before money, big business and politics?
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Skeptical
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I have read in sympathy, BajaGringo's plight. I agree with him that our healthcare system in the United States is broken.
Regarding Barry A, I have not experienced his posts as "belittling" liberals. Even though we are usually diametrically opposed politically, I find him
one of those on The Right who can be objective in his debates, and he is a gentleman. (He is still hopeless though! :lol
Someone asked, "why are Liberals so angry?" My answer is, Look how our country is being run and by whom. There is plenty to be angry about. We,
Liberals and duped Conservatives alike, are losing our country.
The thing that I ask to be considered: Look not at the philosophies. There are good and bad ideas on both sides. But observe the implementation of of
those philosophies. They are killing our country and they are killing us!
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: |
Will we ever put the well beiing of our citizens before money, big business and politics? |
(edit----I wrote and posted this before I saw 'TONEART's post--------thank you, Tony---------wise thoughts, for sure.
barry)
In my opinion, the well-being our of citizens IS "money, business (all sizes), and politics"--------without which we would have very little of what we
have/enjoy today.
There are huge problems with health care, I agree, but we still have the best "system" in the world, IMHO.
I have been with Blue Cross/Blue Shield for 45 years with absolutely NO problems ever-------and now that I am old enough for Medicare parts A & B
too, I hardly pay for anything (which is embarrassing), and always go to doctors of my choice-------what's not to love?? But, (and this is a huge
"but"), I ONLY go to doctors when I absolutely have to.
I don't like the concept of HMO's----never have------and NEVER been with one. I just want to stay with what has always worked for me, and at a
reasonable cost, and I do NOT want to support others frivolous trips to the doc and emergency rooms.
I support a "safety net" concept, but I want it truly an emergency only program------insurance works for me. I do NOT believe that "health care" is
a "right". It is hard for me to have empathy for folks getting free health care when they have no insurance, and still drive nice cars and have big
screen TV's-----I was just not brought up that way, and we had very few of the "things" that todays folks seem to expect, and demand, BECAUSE WE COULD
NOT AFFORD THEM (but we DID always have "insurance")------folks without insurance need to re-evaluate their priorities, IMHO.
(staying together as "families" helps, too)
See ------I have the problem solved.
Barry
[Edited on 7-5-2008 by Barry A.]
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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BajaGringo, I have a daughter, thank God we have'nt been through the agony that you have.It's a parents worst nightmare.In total agreement with your opinion of
"foreign aid".We need to take care of our own, first and foremost!
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
Member Is Offline
Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
BajaGringo, I have a daughter, thank God we have'nt been through the agony that you have.It's a parents worst nightmare
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I pray you never live to find out either. It is something that never goes away. Thank God for good friends who have helped along the way.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
(In total agreement with your opinion of "foreign aid".We need to take care of
our own, first and foremost!
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It is a funny thing how much of that "foreign aid" ends up in the pockets of a few "domestic" large campaign donors. But that's another issue and
probably belongs in another thread...
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