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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Language barrier or easement?
Many people express frustration at their inability to converse in Spanish fluently. Many Nomads speak fractured Spanish including myself, like when I
try to conjugate verbs etc.
How are these attempts viewed by a Mexican. Does it irritate some as it does here often when a person misspells or otherwise prints/speaks poor
English?
It seems to me that Mexicans are much more tolerant, understanding and helpful towards enabling cross-communication when it's attempted.
I enjoy the learning curve.
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Bob H
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5867
Registered: 8-19-2003
Location: San Diego
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Sharks, you think of so many topics. This is a good one. I just point to something and say "como se dice?" (sp?). Hah!
Bob H
The SAME boiling water that softens the potato hardens the egg. It's about what you are made of NOT the circumstance.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Sharks, Listen, listen, listen. Some of my gringo neighbors don't know how to listen. A couple have become confused about how to say "Too much".
They say "Too mas". The Mexican hears "you, more". You should see the show when my stupid gringo neighbors try to help their gardeners put water in
a bucket. I don't worry about language in this little village -- I have about 2000 Spanish words and my Mexican fisherman pals use only about 150
Spanish words so unless we watch Jeopardy together we get along just fine. If we watch Jeopardy in Spanish, I win.
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Santiago
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3499
Registered: 8-27-2003
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I suspect that there is a difference between a visitor and an ex-pat. A visitor gets a lot of slack on both sides of the border. But when the
visitor buys a house and five years later still can't carry on a basic conversation - I think resentment sets in.
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jerry
Super Nomad
Posts: 1354
Registered: 10-10-2003
Location: loreto
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most of the time i can get the idea across and i have never experenced a mexican being rude to me i cant say that about the gringos speaking about my
spelling or perhaps i just dont understand what the mexicans are saying ?? but they say it with a smile when they need to correct me have a good one jerry
jerry and judi
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bajajudy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6886
Registered: 10-4-2004
Location: San Jose del Cabo,BCS
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I find the Mexican people to be VERY tolerant of my fractured Spanish in general. However the more educated the person, the more they expect you to
be able to speak Spanish if you live here.
I have been to 5 weeks of school, 3 in La Paz and 2 in Guadalajara and I still stumble bumble through a conversation but my verbs(tense and person)
are pretty good and vocabulary excellent. And "como se dice" is the best way to improve your vocabulary.
No, Mexicans will very seldom correct you unless they are your friends and you ask them to help you learn the language.
The only way to learn is to practice, so speak and you will be rewarded with new friends and new knowledge.
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bajajudy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6886
Registered: 10-4-2004
Location: San Jose del Cabo,BCS
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Ok hose
And a little embarassment
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comitan
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4177
Registered: 3-27-2004
Location: La Paz
Member Is Offline
Mood: mellow
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Knowing the words and pronouncing them are the problem I have. I can say a word and think I'm saying it right but they come back with the word, and I
say it the same way they do at least to me, but no they say it back again, this can go on 3 or 4 times then I give up. Its difficult.!!
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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bajajudy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6886
Registered: 10-4-2004
Location: San Jose del Cabo,BCS
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Well one of my major problems is that I have a southern accent. Put that in the mix with "is it masculine or feminine" and that is why I stumble
bumble through conversations.
But I still say you have to do it. How can you live somewhere and not at least try to learn what the heck people are saying around you!?!?!?!?!
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Diver
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4729
Registered: 11-15-2004
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Yes, it took me a while to get the less-than-subtle distinction between smoking purros vs burros.
Se vende burros ? ... wasn't getting me anywhere looking for cigars !
Now I can say se vende ? anything with confidence !
"Commo se dice, senior or senorita ?" is my motto.
BTW, never saw a senora bothered by being called senorita !
They will often correct you with a blush.
I love women everywhere......
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Oso
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2637
Registered: 8-29-2003
Location: on da border
Member Is Offline
Mood: wait and see
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One of the main cultural differences I observed over many years of teaching English to Mexicans was the frustrating difficulty in drawing them out,
getting them to speak up and just go for it. Adults, in particular, are very reluctant to "try out" their newly acquired English in public until they
are certain they have it exactly right. They seem much more embarrassed by mispronunciation.
Americans, by comparison, seem to be divided into two groups; those not interested in even trying to learn and those who will blithely and loudly come
out with any god-awful absurd mish-mash of sounds with no trace of shyness.
The interesting thing is that the latter approach works. I have not yet clearly defined the reason for the apparent fact that badly pronounced
Spanish CAN be understood and badly pronounced English cannot. Perhaps it has to do with the more homogenous roots of Spanish, coming almost directly
from Latin with only a few "outside" influences and relatively simpler rules of pronunciation versus the hodge-podge of many roots forming English
with its almost total lack of rules or consistency of pronunciation.
Any other thoughts on this particular point?
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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rpleger
Super Nomad
Posts: 1087
Registered: 3-12-2005
Location: H. Mulegé, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: Was good.
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4 semesters of college Spanish.
3 weeks in Ensenada.
1 year tutouring in Muleg?.
I'm just friggen dumb, but I get along.
Richard on the Hill
*ABROAD*, adj. At war with savages and idiots. To be a Frenchman abroad is to
be miserable; to be an American abroad is to make others miserable.
-- Ambrose Bierce, _The Enlarged Devil\'s Dictionary_
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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buying a pot
Fifty years later I can still feel the embarassment of shopping with my parents in Australia. I was 7 then.
dad: I vont pot.
salesman: What?
dad: Pot, big pot.
salesman: Sir, I don't understand.
dad: I buy pot (getting angrier).
salesman: Pot? what pot.
dad: I looking for pot (neck muscles straining).
salesman: Ohhhhh! You mean pot. (face lighting up)
Dad turns to me. What an idiot. I said pot and he doesn't understand pot. Then he says the exact same thing (pot) and now he understands. His anger
turns on me. Why aren't you helping in this? What am I sending you to school for? You should be doing all the talking.
Fortunately I seem to grasp languages quickly. I don't learn to swim. I just jump into the water and start thrashing.
Skipjack
[Edited on 9-18-2005 by Skipjack Joe]
[Edited on 9-18-2005 by Skipjack Joe]
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
Member Is Offline
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Skipjack, that's the best way to learn to swim, just jump in. My dad taught all us kids down at the river. Couple of times I almost didn't make it
out of the sack.
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Diver
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4729
Registered: 11-15-2004
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Very correct Oso;
We have many spanish-speaking carpenters and masons in my area and you really have to get one on one and friendly to get them to try their english.
Unfortunately, they don't seem keen on helping me learn spanish either as it often requires them to try some english to explain.
We keep trying though, because they are good people and good workers.
[Edited on 9-18-2005 by Diver]
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
Member Is Offline
Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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Communicating
I look at this whole language business a little differently. I really don't care if I can ever speak Spanish correctly. I'm not a very gregarious
person to begin with and began to learn Spanish at a late stage in life. My only consideration is making myself understood, whether it be in a
business transaction or socially.
I spent eight years in the Auto Electric business in Indio. As a result, unlike a lot of people here, I have been in contact with Hispanics speaking
illiterate, fractured English for years and I never thought badly of them. Our only motivation was to communicate well enough to get the job done.
The Mexicans in Baja should feel the same way. If they don't, tough !
I once had a Hispanic customer who owned a Service Station in Coachella tell me that I should learn to speak better Spanish because so many of my
customers didn't speak English. He said that when he first came to the U.S. on the Sunkist express *, he only knew a few words of English, but taught
himself English to survive. I pointed out that the difference was motivation and if I were suddenly in an environment where I had to learn to
survive, I probably would.
* The Sunkist Express for those unfamiliar with the Coachella Valley refers to the Southern Pacific railroad that passes through Mecca where there
was a Sunkist Packing plant. The plant had a sign showing a huge Orange right next to the tracks. The coyotes would tell the passengers to get off
of the train when they saw the Big Orange since La Migra would usually board the trains when they pulled into the Thermal-Indio area.
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bajaden
Nomad
Posts: 496
Registered: 4-7-2005
Location: Ensenada
Member Is Offline
Mood: vicarious
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I guess I'm with Richard. Just dumb. I think its harder to learn at an older age. My short term memory sucks. Once, and if, I ever get something in
there, I can usually remember it. My spanish is better now than it was a year ago, so I guess there's room for hope. My good friend Omar gets most of
his intertainment trying to teach me spanish. Im sort of like Comitan. He'll pronounce a word for me and I'll say it back to him. Its sounds exactly
the same to me. I immediatly know somethings wrong when he breaks out in laughter.
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
Member Is Offline
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Very well articulated you people.
Oso, you've a good spin on this.
Americans who have little Spanish are a confused bunch.
Most I have talked to about this subject concur that the need for a second language is more and more important. Since the number of hispanic speaking
people has increased dramatically in recent years so has the importance of understanding our new neighbors.
I suppose it is personal choice for the most part but it sure would be handy for many. I mean how many service businesses depend on folks that speak
limited English. Inasmuch, it beehooves and in most cases becomes necessary for hispanics to acquire basic knowledge of workplace English. It has
become unusual to see the majority job applicants are not caucasion, and I am talkin' Oregon.
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Diver
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4729
Registered: 11-15-2004
Member Is Offline
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It's not just the gringos that are moving up from Ca to Oregon and Washington !! It's a better life for the mexican-americans as well.
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
Member Is Offline
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Especially to Washington! Good grief what about all that rain?
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