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Paula
Super Nomad
Posts: 2219
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Loreto
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My neighbors, Jose and Maria (not their names) have family in the US. Maria's sister lives in San Diego with her American born children. The sister
went up undocumented 10 years ago. Her daughterr can visit Mexico, but the sister cannot. Jose's parents live in Arizona. They have never seen
their grandchildren, and can't come down. Although Jose has a good job with the city, they can't afford the passports and travel.
College graduates in Oaxaca who teach Spanish imersion classes to foreign tourists can't enter the US because their income isn't sufficient to obtain
the visa. It is very difficult for Mexicans to enter the US-- legally or not.
[Edited on 4-21-2006 by Paula]
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Frank
Senior Nomad
Posts: 861
Registered: 6-5-2005
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Is it time to leave yet?
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We have a family in the same situation, except up here in San Diego. Our friend cannot go back home to Colima to see her sick father, due to her
status{or lack of}.
Paula,
Im just a average guy sitting in San Diego. I have no clue what it takes for a Mexican to come to the US. It seemed simple enough. I know a lot of
the general public has the same amount of knowledge as I do.
Its really confusing for me. I root for them to come, but know that we cannot just open the flood gates.
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Timbercrete
Junior Nomad
Posts: 49
Registered: 3-22-2006
Location: SoCal
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 I don't understand. Are you saying these poeple living in the states can't go to
Mexico to visit ill Family members or for that part, family members at all?
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Frank
Senior Nomad
Posts: 861
Registered: 6-5-2005
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Is it time to leave yet?
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Oh they can, but its getting back home to there US citizen children thats the problem.
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chickensoup
Newbie
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1) The movie is crap!
2) Open borders??? Way to go! Hispanics in the South West may go for it, but what about the rest of the US. Please! Racism and hate are very real.
3) IF we were to let the borders just open, what would happen to Baja?? Disaster. Gringo city. I would buy land like the wind and so would every other
person with a job. The locals would be priced out and shipped out.
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bajabound2005
Ultra Nomad
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Location: Punta Banda, BCN
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Mood: words cannot describe...
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Hey Chickensoup, why do you say the movie is crap? You don't back up your statement with anything.
[Edited on 4-21-2006 by bajabound2005]
Friends don't let friends drink white zinfandel.
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bajajudy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6886
Registered: 10-4-2004
Location: San Jose del Cabo,BCS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chickensoup
3) IF we were to let the borders just open, what would happen to Baja?? Disaster. Gringo city. I would buy land like the wind and so would every other
person with a job. The locals would be priced out and shipped out. |
What makes you think that you cant do that now? The Mexican land ownership laws will not change no matter what happens to the border. In Baja you
cannot own land outright...period.
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woody with a view
PITA Nomad
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Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
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it's a movie. i don't like it. i like very few movies. hard to keep me entertained for two hours at a strech while sitting. sleep comes fast these
days.
what about a day without a cop? a firefighter? a nuke plant worker? a teacher? a doctor? and on and on.
maybe its from working 200 miles from home, seeing my wife and son only on weekends all just to keep the lights on and gas at $3/gallon and to try to
justify my wages to the boss when he can hire 3 "others" and still probably save money. when i started this job there was a safety meeting-me (token
white guy), a black guy, 42 non-english speaking guys who required a translator!!! on a government construction site! what about the issues of safety
when you can't understand each other! this country is full of crap. politicos just wanna stay in office and will do anything (except what's right for
the country) to make sure that happens. how does that make this country better?
jesus h. christ-just open the borders and let everyone who wants to come, in?  even if it was
a two way street, you all would run south just to find what you left in the first place, eventually. where's the logic?
sorry for the rant, but i started on topic
oh, my wife is peruvian so that disqualifies me as a latino hater-N-zi-racist, no?
[Edited on 4-21-2006 by woody in ob]
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Paula
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It's a sad story,Pompano, and Susie and her family shouldn't have to suffer the loss of the life they've made for themselves. One thing is for
certain, that there is no easy solution to all the injustices that have brought about her situation.
She is right that the Mexican government needs to solve the problem of poverty down here. But this isn't something we can fix.
And she blames the American government for not protecting her. And she is right on this one too.
The question is what should the government do? More prisons, tighter borders, more guns, citizen vigilante groups have not improved things any more
than the long running war on drugs has solved the drug problem. And the drug problem is a part of the border problem, and certainly part of Susie's
problem.
I wonder if a new way of seeing and dealing with the border might be a good step. What we have been doing certainly isn't working, and Susie's
difficulties are small compared to those of Juan and Alejandro.
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Riom
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chickensoup
3) IF we were to let the borders just open, what would happen to Baja?? Disaster. Gringo city. I would buy land like the wind and so would every other
person with a job. The locals would be priced out and shipped out. |
I agree it would be a disaster for Baja California, but the Californians moving in (some illegally) are doing the same already. And, in most cases,
locals move away from the pricey (and unstable) beachfront land but stay local, and get paid more wages as prices rise, rather than just going to
interior Mexico because it is cheap.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Frank
Isnt that the way it is now? If everyone follows the rules? Why re-invent the wheel? Just enforce what on the books now. |
Not at all. There is limited free trade for big business, and for a few people under special circumstances (mostly when they have plenty of money).
That's it. There's still a customs border and no practical way to get normal (everyday) jobs in the other country legally, in either direction.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Pompano
It is a little different take on the illegal immigration issue. This woman's trials are typical of ranch-owners living within a hundred miles of our
700-mile border with Mexico. Can you imagine (from this article) how you would feel?
[Edited on 4-21-2006 by Pompano] |
I agree. This is caused by forcing people to cross the border illegally, rather than providing a way to do it legally. With open borders, people
smuggling and walking across the desert disappears - they can just legally get the bus. There would still be drug smuggling, but it's not limited to
the border areas anywhere - checkpoints and borders can be in more sensible locations, further south and north.
For example, driving south from the Netherlands (drugs widely available) there's no border going into Belgium and then on into France (by no border I
mean nothing at all, just a "welcome to France" sign on the freeway). But inside France, at convenient points, there are random checkpoints and
searches, like the Immigration checkpoints north of Yuma and Brawley. No long border to expensively defend.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
However, would not the base pay (minimum wage) need to rise in Mexico and match ours first? Good pay in Mexico is 10 dollars a day, here it is 10
dollars an hour! THAT is why they flood north...
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Given the choice, most people prefer to work near family and friends. In the EU for example a nurse is paid around $360/month in Slovakia,
$2500/month plus in Ireland, a similar ratio. The nurse from Slovakia can already move freely to Ireland, and they may do for a while, but most
realise that much of the difference is used up with the higher cost of living. Most people hate being exiles.
Over time, the poorer countries catch up. Portugal is an example which was very poor before joining the EU but is catching up, in large part because
lots of northern Europeans have moved there which employs more people locally at higher rates.
Anyway, to get back to the movie, sounds worth watching, although it'll be interesting to see if they mention that the US should get something in
return for allowing Mexicans in legally... freedoms should be reciprocal, that way both sides become in favor.
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capn.sharky
Senior Nomad
Posts: 686
Registered: 9-4-2003
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"It would be so good to see this happen... how might we encourage our elected officials to move in this direction?"
Paula---Its simple, send them lots of money. These people are only in it for what it can do for them. They care not about us. That should be clear
by now. When people ask how I can go to Baja with all the corruption, I respond by telling them I am leaving our corruption to see another countries
corruption.
If there is no fishing in heaven, I am not going
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Paula
Super Nomad
Posts: 2219
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Loreto
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Cap'n Sharkey,
I couldn't agree with you more. But I keep hoping.........
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bajajudy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6886
Registered: 10-4-2004
Location: San Jose del Cabo,BCS
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Ok and the answer is(if anyone cares).....................
The irony of the title is that it was ALL Spanish speaking people who disappeared not just Mexicans but we, Americans, lump them all together never
thinking that some were from Guatamala, Honduras, Columbia, Puerto Rico etc.
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HotSchott
Nomad
Posts: 156
Registered: 9-4-2003
Location: Sandy Eggo
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I guess if all Spanish-speaking people disappeared that would include a few of us degenerate Mexi-loving landscaper types that actually speak Spanish.
There is alot of sh*t that wouldn't get done if I don't go to work. It should be like "A day without a Gringo Boss"...
May 1 is my Dad's birthday - he will be 71. A totally just cause for celebration - he's a way cool dude. I think he likes Mexicans. Is this
relevant? My birthday is May 3. I am going to Belize to party where everyone doesn't give a crap about much other than fishing and keeping my
Belikin cold. That is what Labor day should be all about - keeping my beer cold. I am taking my wife and mother - they both like Mexicans too. This
must be important to someone.
I like Belize - virtually everyone is from somewhere else. The black people there would rather fish and smoke lots of pot than b-tch about the fact
that their great great great great great grandaddy was a slave. Garifuna is a cool language and you have to shake your ass - (hey I said A$$) when
they get on the drums. Most Belizeans speak good English and like to get drunk at Christmas - this is probably not important to everyone.
In Belize, virtually every day is a day without Mexicans - which is funny because, well like Mexico is like right there.
I suspect most of the Mexican guys I work with are not going to see A day without a Mexican - even if they change the name to something else. The
Mexicans I work with don't seem to be too concerned with the "Big Reform Movement" stirring around town. They actually rolled their eyes and laughed
when I asked if they were participating. I tried to explain how important it was to participate in this momentous process, this life-changing appeal
to our legislators. Let's just say that they were not moved. It seems that Apathy is tought quickly once they are north of the garita.
Most of the Mexicans don't like the Mexicans from other parts of Mexico. Like the guys from Zacateca can't stand the group from Michoacan. Like they
don't even eat together, but they work side-by-side. We had a guy from Guadalajara and he didn't last through the hazing. They really hate each
other. They totally hate Guatamalans. Whoo they hate Guatamalans! Are they in the movie too - the Guatamalans?
You know they actually have Menonites in Belize? It is freaking hilarious to see these hard-core German brothers dressed up like Louis Farrakan in
the middle of the freaking 100-degree jungle on a horse-drawn cart. This is important and relevant - I'm just not sure why. Do you think the Brits
and their red uniforms looked funny in Belize too?
Sooooo, I think it stopped drizzling and I can paint now. But one more thought to really make JR squirm , how about movie called "A day without idiots" - you know, genuine anal cranial inverted types? Maybe get
Michael Moore to direct it. Or co-narrated by Hillary Clinton and Monica Lewinsky.
American's and much of the rest of the planet needs to lighten up. Those Muslims are really on a tear huh? Talk about uptight - geez. Ya I'm gonna
go paint now so I can take my mama to Belize, where there are lots of dudes fishing and smoking pot and lots of Mayans, Guatamalans and Garifuna and
Creole but just not too many Mexicans. That's wierd huh? A day without Mexicans. I hope the Beer is cold.
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Paula
Super Nomad
Posts: 2219
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Loreto
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Hot Schott,
Heavy??? I didn't get heavy there did I?? Well, thanks for lightening
it up...
Happy birthday-- Hope the fishing is good!
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wornout
Senior Nomad
Posts: 595
Registered: 10-24-2004
Location: San Felipe, Baja California
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Bad Days
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Hum.
This Space Available, E-Mail Me If Interested.
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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Hey Pomp...
I have ancestors, Dutch guys, who settled in what is now New York.
They were not illegal aliens.
They bought fideicomisos with their beads. Legal.
A Day Without The Dutch?
OK, I'll go away now.
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bajabound2005
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2760
Registered: 10-15-2005
Location: Punta Banda, BCN
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Mood: words cannot describe...
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There is a great transcript from a speech by the former Governor of Colorado on this immigration issue at this site:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/lamm.asp
And after reading many of the Nomads' comments, stories and this transcript I think I've changed my mind on this subject. And I've order the book,
Mexifornia! Thanks for enlightening all of us.
Friends don't let friends drink white zinfandel.
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bajajudy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6886
Registered: 10-4-2004
Location: San Jose del Cabo,BCS
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Raid splits up Mexican families in U.S.
BY SAM QUINONES
El Universal
April 23, 2006
Families of deported illegals find themselves suddenly lost in the United States.
Paola Ordaz is feeling lost in the United States.
Her husband, Alfredo Garc?a, was arrested Wednesday with 28 co-workers during a raid at a Riverside, Calif., area factory run by IFCO Systems North
America, where he made wooden pallets.
He and his brother, Alejandro Garc?a, were immediately deported to Mexico as a result of the U.S. investigation into IFCO?s alleged hiring of illegal
immigrants. They were among 1,187 workers taken into custody this week in a nationwide crackdown on the Dutch company, the largest manufacturer of
wooden pallets in the United States.
He?s now in Tijuana, and has called her twice, but is afraid to cross the border illegally again, for fear of landing in prison, she said.
Ordaz, 29, is left to care for three U.S.-born children under the age of 6, with no job, no money - not even enough for bus fare to rejoin her husband
in Tijuana. The US$650 rent for their apartment is due May 1.
"I?m hoping to find a job now so I can support my children," said Ordaz, who quit school at age 10 to become a tomato picker.
She has her husband?s car, but has never learned to drive it, and because of that hasn?t explored much of the area west of Riverside, where she?s
lived for the last seven years.
She?s not entirely alone. Her sister-in-law, Mar?a Jarqu?n, who is married to Alejandro Garc?a, lives nearby. But she, too, is stranded.
She must now support her 6-year-old daughter and 3-year-old son - both U.S. citizens - at least until she can leave for Mexico when the school year
ends.
ESCAPING POVERTY
Until Wednesday, the immigration debate raged as mostly background noise for the women, who had comfortably inhabited the world of
undocumented-immigrant housewives raising children in the United States. Neither they nor their husbands had ever faced deportation before.
Southern California was an escape from the poverty in the southern state of Oaxaca.
Their husbands had spent several years as itinerant tomato pickers in northwest Mexico before coming to the United States to work. At the factory,
they made US$350 a week.
"We?re all working, doing the hardest jobs," said Jarqu?n. "The immigrants do more work than those who have papers."
But U.S. immigration authorities said families like these made conscious choices to break the law.
"The position of the (U.S.) government is that families make the decision to come here and live illegally," said Virginia Kice, a spokes-woman for the
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
Just because they had children here "doesn?t convey that status on their parents," she added. "Those children are free to return with their parents to
a home country."
She also said everyone arrested has the right to have a formal immigration hearing, although doing so might make it more difficult down the road to
return to the United States.
"This is not a new situation," she said. "Families have to make their own decisions about how they will proceed."
?TEMPORARY? WORK
At IFCO?s Riverside- area facility, company officials declined to comment on the raid or investigation, saying only that they had hired temporary
workers from an employment agency to replace the deported immigrants.
U.S. investigators claim IFCO not only hired illegal immigrants but reimbursed them for buying illegal documents and coached them in avoiding
detection.
Ordaz said she knew nothing of this; she had no idea whether the allegations were true. Her life revolved around her apartment and her children, she
said.
The Garc?a brothers, according to their wives, had become reliable workers at the plant.
Alfredo had worked there eight years, after arriving illegally from their hometown of Ejutla, Oaxaca, Ordaz said.
Over the years, he was joined at the job by Alejandro, another brother, a sister, a cousin and an uncle, she said.
All were deported after Wednesday?s raid, she said.
Now, Ordaz said, her husband and the others are hoping to earn money in Tijuana to take a bus to back to Oaxaca.
Friday afternoon, Ordaz wasn?t sure whether she?d stay in the United States or go back home.
"You come here to have a better life, but here they don?t want us," she said. "We need to ask the Mexican government to give us jobs so we don?t have
to leave our country to survive."
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
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Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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BajaJudy------
-------this family detailed in your "piece" certainly did not plan for the future well, did they. Since they were engaged in illegal activity, which
by itself includes the possibility of bad things happening, it is amazing to me that they did not have contingency plans to handle situations like
this.
All I can do is shake my head, and wonder what people are thinking of when they get themselves, and worse, their kids, into these situations like
this which are totally predictable.
Only they can take responsibility for their own ILLEGAL actions, it seems to me.
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