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capn.sharky
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Posts: 686
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Interesting opinions on BN Board
I addressed the board with a single question and stirred up a hornets nest. Answers went from "should be off topic" to a quote from Ted Roosevelt.
Roosevelt (who I liked when I studied about him) was wrong if he was quoted correctly. America is the "Great Melting Pot". From Texas west to
California, our towns are named in Spanish and we enjoy the food of Mexico. Try to find a good taco in Maine, for example. We celebrate Cinco de
Mayo---while in Mexico it is no big deal, except in Puebla. Everyones opinions were appreciated even though they varied from pro Mexican to anti
illegal immigration. I would have thought this board would be more pro immigration than say, a construction union board. One hit on the real
problem---that of fining employers for the hiring of illegals. Like drugs coming up from Mexico---isn't the real problem here in America where they
find a market for illegal drugs? As for being off topic---I didn't think it was off topic since it involved talking about illegal immigration with
our Mexican friends in Baja. Of all the answers, and all were valid, I would have to agree with Skeets idea. After all, how do you round up 11
Million illegal Mexicans and deport them? More important is how can the government target one group and not the other groups that have gotten into the
country illegally. That would seem to be against our constitution. Lastly, as for Mexico taking over our western states, I find that highly unlikely.
Skeeter is right---find them, check them out and if no problems with their background, legalize them. Build a fence to keep more from coming and
send the ones with criminal backgrounds back to Mexico. But, find all illegal immigrants (arabic, chinese, etc. and run them through the system.
Fear is behind all of this problem.....same as with the Afro American problem in the 50's and 60's. Never let fear cloud your thinking. Thanks to
all who responded to my question.
If there is no fishing in heaven, I am not going
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MSZULCK
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I am so sorry, Captain Sharky, but you offer a solution to the problem excluding completely again the fact that making money hiring cheap undocumented
laborers in the USA is authorized. Again, immigration without proper documents to Europe has almost come to a standstill because there is no illegal
work to be found. Due to the very high fines and the rigorous control no employer, big and small, dares to get involved with illegal workers anymore.
That stops undocumented workers from coming and nothing else. It is the solution and it is simple. Please see that the person who makes the tremendous
effort of travelling without documents into the USA comes from a place where they live in harsh poverty. But the person who hires them for extremely
low wages, without paying health insurance, social wellfare, taxes, lodging, etc, lives in comfort and makes through this illegal hiring more money
and is not considered illegal....
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David K
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Well it is not slavery, like you make it sound... Nobody makes them come here to work for whatever wages.
By the way, in the landscape industry around here... they hardly make low wages... $10-$15+ per hour for manual labor is the range they work for...
often includes lunch too.
The problem is Mexico... If the government would allow the free market to prosper in the banking and other industries as well as stop the corruption,
then those people wouldn't need to go 3,000 miles to get a decent wage.
The ones that come here to occupy and try to unite the west with the mother country are laughable... What is the reason they left Mexico? Why would
they want THAT, here??? Where would they go then?
Most of those here from Mexico are good people and not revolutionaries....
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elgatoloco
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Location: Yes
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http://www.markfiore.com/animation/phobia.html
MAGA
Making Attorneys Get Attorneys
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sylens
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Location: Ensenada
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thanks elgatoloco
i really enjoyed it. pretty comprehensive. covers most of the bases, i think.
lili
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Marie-Rose
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Posts: 894
Registered: 10-2-2003
Location: Victoria, B.C. and Todos Santos
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Mood: Worried...
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Thanks Matt ....any trips to Todos Santos planned???? Send me U2U, would love to visit again!
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chickensoup
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I'll tell you what, if illegal immigrants are making $10-$15/hour plus lunch... how can anyone argue that these are jobs that legal US citizens
wouldn't want???
When I got out of college (1996), I went to Norway and picked up a job loading stuff in a factory for $30/hour. It was crazy! Stuff you would get for
$8/hour (MAX!!!) here. You know what, my employer got busted and my job went bye-bye.
I wasn't contributing one penny back into their economy that I didn't have to. Everything I could save was coming back here. I had a degree in
physics and all I could think was...dude, why did I go to school when I could just make $30/hour with no education??? And that would be the case, if
they didn't crack down.
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Bruce R Leech
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I think most of us are pro immigration
I only object to illegal immigration.
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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Osprey
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Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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This problem stumps us all because we just don't have enough data. Yesterday's news polls said 97% of those polled (on the street, in the U.S.) agree
with some news people who say FIRST FIX THE BORDERS, THEN WRESTLE WITH THE OTHER PROBLEMS. I'm in the 3% I guess beacuse it might be impossible to
fix both those long, long borders in a way that would satisfy the congress, the pundits and those polled. So, if you lay that formula down as common
sense law, you may stymy all the other very pressing immigration issures --- that might set us back precious years while finding middle ground for
lots of decent folks in 3 big countries.
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capn.sharky
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Gracias Elgatoloco. Muy chiste. Seems like the press these days decides on what we should all worry about. Ah, the United States---the great
melting pot.
I agree wholeheartedly with David K. If Mexico would give opportunity to their people---why would they come here. Mexico is the big looser by not
using its own people to make the country prosper. Its not just El Zorro (Pres. Fox) it their whole system and has been for l00 years now. One of the
southern states just passed legeslation that is pretty strong. In the meantime, I am heading to Spain for two weeks then on to Loreto to relax. If
our government was so concerned about all this, they would have put a stop to it a long time ago.
If there is no fishing in heaven, I am not going
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thebajarunner
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Posts: 3687
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Location: Arizona....."Free at last from crumbling Cali
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another interesting aspect
Here is a part of this whole puzzle that no one addresses.
Those who come across, legal or illegal, to take the low pay, no fun jobs are enterprising enough that they (or surely their next generation) work
real hard to elevate themselves into the next economic levels.
Thus, today's solution for the low level labor needs, will not be a solution in the near future.
And, I know this to be a fact, first hand.
My wife came across 30 years ago (came across the TJ river twice before she succeeded.)
And, all of her 14 brothers and sisters are here now as well.
They all started out at the bottom, cleaning houses, doing landscaping, general labor.
And now, 25 or 30 years later..... well, my wife has her own business, and several of her brothers as well.
Most of the next-gen have gone to college, a couple have graduated from U.C.
Guess what? No more low level labor for this family.
So, now who fills those slots? And how long will they be satisfied at that level before they move up? And who will then fill the slots.
Work on that one for a while!
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64490
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Location: San Diego County
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chickensoup
I'll tell you what, if illegal immigrants are making $10-$15/hour plus lunch... how can anyone argue that these are jobs that legal US citizens
wouldn't want???
When I got out of college (1996), I went to Norway and picked up a job loading stuff in a factory for $30/hour. It was crazy! Stuff you would get for
$8/hour (MAX!!!) here. You know what, my employer got busted and my job went bye-bye.
I wasn't contributing one penny back into their economy that I didn't have to. Everything I could save was coming back here. I had a degree in
physics and all I could think was...dude, why did I go to school when I could just make $30/hour with no education??? And that would be the case, if
they didn't crack down. |
===================================================
I have no idea if they are illegal or legal, but they line the streets and Home Depot parking lots seeking work....
I once picked up a fellow for one day's work and began to speak Spanish to him... oops... He didn't speak Spanish... he was an American. So, if
'Americans' want to work, they just need to go where they are hiring or start their own business. I prefer an English speaker no matter what
nationality, as I am not fluent in Spanish. Nothing is keeping Americans from working...
Immigration could wrap up the problem of illegals here by just parking one of their staffed vehicles at the places where they gather to find jobs...
There aren't that many places, and I have seen how many Border Patrol rigs are parked at the checkpoints, doing nothing! That way only legal ones will
show up for work... and would entice those not legal to go through the same process their fellow legal amigos went through.
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Paula
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Posts: 2219
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Capn Sharkey,
It was I who suggested that the thread move to off-topic. I think that you posed an interesting question, and I would liked to have read some answers
to it.
But nobody chose to answer, and a jingoistic tirade ensued, and I found many statements to be offensive. We have the off-topic forum for
conversations about US politics, which is what the thread turned into.
I think that many Americans base their opinions on emotional response and lack of understanding of complex economic realities. Our economy requires
the illegal workers, and our politicians walk a thin line trying to keep their constituents pacified and voting for them, and their big donors
(corporations) supplied with a low cost workforce. The unfortunate souls who cross the border hoping to solve their personal economic problems are
the victims our our paranoia and bickering.
I have mentioned before a book, "Crossing Over" by Ruben Martinez, that brings some humanity to the issue. "Tortilla Curtain", a novel by T.C. Boyle
is also interesting.
I sure don't profess to have the answers to this issue, but maybe it is time to think differently about it. A big long wall may slow things down a
bit, but at a very high cost in human lives. More border police and beaurocracy won't really stop hungry people, and those citizen groups sitting on
the line with their guns in their laps are just ridiculous. Maybe we need to find a way to cooperate for the good of all. And maybe that means that
Americans need to listen and think before just coming up with answers that don't work.
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HotSchott
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Registered: 9-4-2003
Location: Sandy Eggo
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Americans listen and think...
That's a good one! All the makings of a good oxymarooon.
I would settle for listen OR think.
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Skeet/Loreto
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It is my suggestion that each one of the Posters read "Mexifornia" by Victor Davis Hanson.
D. Hanson also wrote" Ripples of Battle", and "Carnage and Culture".
then come back to this discussion and proceed. Dr. Hanson retired as a Prof of the Classics at University of Calif at Fresno, Calif.He was born and
rasied in a small Town of Selma Calif. and has some Ideas and words that would benefit you all!!
skeet/Loreto
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
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Hot Shcott
Perhaps if you change Paula's message to American AND Mexican Politicians should stop listen and think--it would survive. People on both sides of
this issue are being used by Politicians on each side for 'their' own benefit. Americans to get more votes and Mexicans to quell the revolution that
would eventually occur if they didn't have America as a relief valve.
Paula thanks for the reading list--I hate it when people recommend books because I just head out and get them.
I suppose I am a real live 'oxymarooon' because I do attempt to understand both sides of the argument before I place my thoughts in concrete
As usual Skeet comes up with a good one (I'll buy it too)--Did anyone notice his spelling since he became a college student--are they really ready for
you my friend?
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
Registered: 9-20-2004
Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
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Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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Mexifornia : A State of a Becomng
http://www.coolshopping.com/books.php/Mode/product/page/1/br...
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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bonanza bucko
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Registered: 8-31-2003
Location: San Diego
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Mexico should be one of the RICHEST countries on earth! It has thousands of miles of warm water coast line and magnificnet ports, it has natural
resources beyond measure, it has millions of hard working, religious, honest good people and it has a magnificent climate. I love the place and the
people.
But it's poor because of its upside down legal system and its corruption. Can you imagine the impact on the economy and society of Baja, for
instance, if there were a system like the USA had as we built our coutry in the 1870s to 1960s? Here's what that was:
1.)Universal Service and Price Averaging for utilities...that produced telephone, electric, gas, water and sewer service for everyone at a price they
could afford in their simplest forms....for instance, a local phone cost the customer about 10% of its true cost and the loss was offset by higher
charges for business service and long distance....a local phone was for ordering groceries, calling the cops and the doctor. Long distance was a
"luxury." Those utilities were paid for by the customers and managed by governement regulated utilities or by goverment entities with the SPECIFIC
GOAL OF INCREASING ECONOMIC STRENTH AND PUBLIC HEALTH AND EDUCATION.
2.)Good roads, railroads and airlines designed to promote commerce. The road south of San Felipe, for instance, is a great big resistor in the
circuit of commerce....nothing will ever make that area rich as long as you can't deliver the goods.
We built the railroads with land grants and we built the airlines with postal contracts. They have been there, like them or not now, for a century
and they made us rich.
President Eisenhower pushed the construction of the Interstate Road System that we currently need in the early 1950s...what would America be like
today without it? What would Mexico be like today if it had such a thing? Why didn't it produce one? You know the reason and so does anyone who
will think about it.
3.)Universal Public Education with an emphasis on civics and our constitutional history....on the power of "The Melting Pot" and the contributions
made by assimilated legal imigrants from all over the world. 50 years ago every school kid could recite the Gettysburg Address and quote the words on
the base of the Statue of Liberty. They could also read and write in English!....or they were flunked out.
Etc. Without these legal, political and cultural keys to our prosperity we would look like Mexico or Poland. But, I'll bet a whole bunch against a
doughnut that 99% of the people reading this never heard of the stuff above....that they don't know any of the reasons we are fat, dumb and happy
today. And you can bet yer gluteus that these facts are not taught in any school.
Take a trip to China and you will see a vastly bigger version of the USA 100 years ago...all those utilities and aids to education, health and
commerce are being built. But not in Mexico...or here either any more....WHY?
It would be very nice if we had OPEN BORDERS! But that means OPEN BOTH WAYS!! .....funny how we hear so much about how nice open borders would be
from Mexicans but with the insistence that the door only swings north.
If we really had open borders...if Gringos could really go to Mexico and buy land, establish businesses and put heat on local politicians to produce
the public utility services above....the place would change pretty fast. We might even find some "illegals" going home.....might even find some
Gringos flooding south the way the illegals have flooded north.
You know what? I think that those both way open borders are what Bush, Fox and Whatshisname from Canada agreed on down at the ranch five years ago.
That might be why Bush and our gummint ain't too interested in cleaning up the current mess they have created.
Now enough common sense and logic. Let's have a little fantasy: How about putting the cannibals back on Isla Tiburon and letting them live off of
corrupt politicans as they are discovered and shipped out there....both flavors...Gringo and Mexican. Boy, we'd have some overweight cannibals
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bajabound2005
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2760
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Location: Punta Banda, BCN
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Dr. Hanson retired as a Prof of the Classics at University of Calif at Fresno, Calif.He was born and rasied in a small Town of Selma Calif. and has
some Ideas and words that would benefit you all!!
skeet/Loreto |
I think that might be Calif State Univ at Fresno as there is no UC in Fresno.
Friends don't let friends drink white zinfandel.
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Skeet/Loreto
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Bound2005; You are dead right,I have been using one finger to type and a small brain cell to think.
I graduated from Fresno State College in 1958 with a B. S. in Criminology.
Worked as a Campus Policeman the fours years while going under the G.I. Bill getting $120 a Month.Was paid for Police work at $1.25 and Hour.
Had charge and developed the Traffic Pattern at the "New Campus" which was 7 miles north of the Old Campus-Traffic system-Its still a Mess!!
My Daugther TippytoesTish graduated from there with a Business/English Degree after the name was changed.
I went through the "Brown Berets", Chavez, era .
Was voted "Whos Who among Colleges and Universities in 1957".
As some on the board would say I am Educated, but let me suggest that all a college education gives you is the ability to seek further information
and where to find that information. It is the experiences of Life along with the knowledge that truly determines your Character
Thanks for putting up with me! Do not start to WTA&M until the Fall. Trying to get ready for something called the GRE Test.
Try to read all of Hansons books, it is worth the time and effort.
SkeetTexas
Skeet/Loreto
Anon The Preacher
Skeeter Peter
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