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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
Member Is Offline
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Watch out, it's true, people DO go there!
Along with my own accounts, it's true, people are exploring and finding those more "out-of-the-way" spots! Listen in and you will soon see the "the
secret(s)" are out. If you want the REAL Baja info just listen in. That is, listen in to the popular Baja internet forums. It's a veritable "newbie
heaven" in terms of discovery.
While not just a fun place to play and learn simultaneously, a "poster" can divulge instantaneously, important secrets not revealed anywhere else or
else not much publicised any where else. Such adventures and back-country discoveries, especially sensitive locales like archeological sites or
mineral and fossil sites can be gleened and accessed via these "in the know" real-time sources.
Never before has this been accomplished. Relative to the time a "secret" place can be divulged could make a place expect to receive more visits much
sooner than pre-blabla.
Convince me that publicising sensitive and/ or unique places by way of GPS coordinates via "real time" media is wise or prudent or is beneficial in
the preservation of same.
In this information based era and using this platform for entertainment and education we all contribute to each others appetite by contribution. In
this case Baja is the love we share. Some areas of this relatively undamaged place are jewels that would be best examined and exposed in the face of
close friends. Consider please , the scope of the contribution and the potential consequences,
.
Think about it....
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
Member Is Offline
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I agree with your coordinates.
Zac
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
Registered: 9-20-2004
Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
Member Is Offline
Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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here here
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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surfer jim
Super Nomad
Posts: 1891
Registered: 8-29-2003
Location: high desert
Member Is Offline
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Please list ALL "secret" surf spot locations so that I can review them....
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DanO
Super Nomad
Posts: 1923
Registered: 8-26-2003
Location: Not far from the Pacific
Member Is Offline
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David K must be out of town, or he'd be responding.
Personally, I am not now, nor have I have I ever been, a member of the GPS Party. It's not that I disapprove of the practice, it's just that I like
the mystery of puzzling over maps and wandering down roads for the first time. At the risk of sounding like a Luddite, which I'm not, the idea of
knowing precisely where I am on the planet at all times with mathematical precision just seems inconsistent with that approach. (Of course, the FBI,
DHS and God knows who else know exactly where my truck is 24/7, courtesy of that SENTRI transponder on the windshield.)
As for sharing that sort of data, what's the difference between telling someone about a really cool place you found that's at the end of a road that
leaves the highway x-miles after the y-kilometer marker south of __________, and giving them the GPS coordinates? People have been doing the former
for a lot longer than the internet and GPS have been around.
More people will come because, among other things, there are more people now. It's just a fact. It's also a fact that they will buy expensive toys
and will want to use them. It ain't the good old days anymore.
\"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.\" -- Frank Zappa
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bajaandy
Senior Nomad
Posts: 769
Registered: 2-7-2004
Location: North County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Adventurous
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| Quote: | Originally posted by surfer jim
Please list ALL "secret" surf spot locations so that I can review them.... |
Now Jim, you know that all surf spots must be approved by the Sacred Saints of the Secret Spots before anyone can actually get information on how to
get to them!
subvert the dominant paradigm
"If you travel with a man, you must either fall out with him or make him your good friend."
JBL Noel
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64489
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Here I am
Seriously, as DanO said the publishing of 'cool' Baja places is not new or limited to Baja Nomad.
My family began to 'explore' Baja with the help of Howard Gulick's fantastic 'Lower California Guidebook' published first in 1956 with new editions
right up to 1970.
Howard made the best maps and had the best detailed road logs that still have value today... 50 years ago. This enticed us to explore and see more of
the peninsula... because of what Howard wrote.
More recently, Walt Peterson wrote 'The Baja Adventure Book' with tons a cool or 'secret' places and details on how to get there, such as Las Pintas.
Published Baja guide books have already been posting GPS waypoints... also the two most recent mission books have waypoints...
Now that we are clear that given out details on how to find a Baja location is not limited to this web site, let's add that we on Nomad (unlike books
you need to buy) do it for free because we enjoy sharing and the overwhelming responce shows it is greatly appreciated.
To address some concerns:
1. Who reads Baja Nomad?
Is it Baja loving people who want to enrich their travel experiences, learn more, visit, and preserve the great places so others may enjoy them,
including our children?
Or are Baja Nomads theives or criminals armed with spray paint and picks just looking for new targets to drive for miles in 4WD to destroy?
2. Who uses GPS receivers or road logs?
Is it Baja loving people who want to see for themselves a beautiful or intersting location without getting lost or trailblazing?
Or is it gang members with spray paint looking for remote places to tag that nearly no one will see?
3. Does the historic information and photos posted here (or shown in books) actually cause the destruction of missions and historic sites?
Or, is the knowledge and appreciation of these sites cause more people to want to preserve it because they now have value both in education and as a
tourist draw to an area?
Afterall, when nobody knew a pile of rubble was once a mission site or that it would be something to attract tourists and their dollars, the sites
were deemed of no value and allowed to be artificially destroyed or bricks hauled off to build a corral or home.
Case in point: The onyx schoolhouse of El Marmol was being slowly torn down about to disappear forever. A couple of us on the Internet made quite a
stink about that... Now, a fence has been erected around it. While that alone won't stop anyone who wants to vandalize it, the fact that it was deemed
worthy of a fence shows others that once old building has value to preserve. There is plenty of onyx laying about and the schoolhouse is worth
keeping.
Once the locals see the tourists (because they were made aware of their existance) are interested in the melted mounds of adobe or piles of stone,
then they have a better reason to help preserve the sites.
Education (telling and showing people about Baja history) is not a bad thing and will do more to save a site than keeping it a 'secret' if that were
even possible.
There are no secret sites in Baja, somebody has seen it before or written about it somewhere. It is not our private playground for only us to enjoy,
it is a true wonderland that everone should be informed about to help keep it that way.
Only those who think it is a desert wasteland with ruined buildings will not appreciate it and will NOT have a reason to preserve it.
Baja Nomads love Baja and will do more to help keep the sites valuable and preserved. The more sites we share with each other, the BETTER those site
have a chance to be protected by the people of Baja who live near them. 
[Edited on 6-8-2006 by David K]
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DanO
David K must be out of town, or he'd be responding.
As for sharing that sort of data, what's the difference between telling someone about a really cool place you found that's at the end of a road that
leaves the highway x-miles after the y-kilometer marker south of __________, and giving them the GPS coordinates? People have been doing the former
for a lot longer than the internet and GPS have been around.
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Well, if you reread the thread you'll see I am not opposed to sharing info between friends. And specifically, I am referring to sensitive, fragile
sites. I know most folks who ply the board here and the backroads there are trustworthy considerate visitors. But some, even the BFG crew can be
destructive without that intent. Less exposure means less harm.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64489
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sharksbaja
| Quote: | Originally posted by DanO
David K must be out of town, or he'd be responding.
As for sharing that sort of data, what's the difference between telling someone about a really cool place you found that's at the end of a road that
leaves the highway x-miles after the y-kilometer marker south of __________, and giving them the GPS coordinates? People have been doing the former
for a lot longer than the internet and GPS have been around.
|
Well, if you reread the thread you'll see I am not opposed to sharing info between friends. And specifically, I am referring to sensitive, fragile
sites. I know most folks who ply the board here and the backroads there are trustworthy considerate visitors. But some, even the BFG crew can be
destructive without that intent. Less exposure means less harm. |
I consider you all my friends, by the way... 
Think about what I wrote Corky, knowledge beats ignorance... Baja Nomad readers love Baja, they wouldn't be here otherwise.
[Edited on 6-8-2006 by David K]
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
Registered: 9-20-2004
Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
Member Is Offline
Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Here I am
There are no secret sites in Baja, somebody has seen it before or written about it somewhere. It is not our private playground for only us to enjoy,
it is a true wonderland that everone should be informed about to help keep it that way.
:
[Edited on 6-8-2006 by David K] |
you made some excellent points David but the one above is not correct. oh maybe in Baja north but here in Baja south I know plenty of places that no
other non native person has been but me. I even think that I know a few where I have Ben the only one there for thousands of years. I share many sites
with others but there are some that I wont tell. as I think some of the authors of some of those books you mentioned have a few secret sits . ill bet
you may even have a spot or 2 that you don't advertise to much
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64489
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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As I said Bruce 'somebody' has seen it before... You or the locals are somebody, right?
I am a Californian, and Baja was California first... I think of the peninsula as my roots... it sure draws me back again and again!
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
Registered: 9-20-2004
Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
Member Is Offline
Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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David I think you need to get to B.C.S. more there is still a lot to be discovered here. but you cant drive to them in a 4X4.
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64489
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bruce R Leech
David I think you need to get to B.C.S. more there is still a lot to be discovered here. but you cant drive to them in a 4X4. |
How about 4 Hoof Drive Bruce?
Here I am on the Camino Real near Mision San Miguel de la Frontera!
I would love to spend more time in Baja California Sur! The problem I have is the distance! My time off rarely allows that far of a trip along with an
equal or greater number of days to enjoy myself. The last time I had 2 weeks off was in winter '01-'02 and made it to the tip... http://vivabaja.com/baja15 Capt. Mike took us flying over Mulege the second day of the trip!
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
Registered: 9-20-2004
Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
Member Is Offline
Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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next time you come you can stay here with us
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
Member Is Offline
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David
You can't be that naive. If you(or anyone else) tell people things in a public forum, thinking they are ALL respectable honourable people you are
addressing then naive may fit. I would love to have that much confidance in my fellow man, and I don't mean you. Think about this; a Nomad posts a
GPS # and claims that one can find gold nuggets there in quantity, ok rare cave artifacts, do you think ALL that read the invitation will react with
honourable intentions? The internet is a HUGE place and the info posted becomes globally accessable. What about the treasure seeker? You know the
type. Cmon, we all want to savor the "best" places and for sure most of the time we all adhere to our (hopefully)sensibilities. But David just
because you are a Nomad doesn't mean scores of others are not there who just look and lurk for other reasons(off-topic is a good example). How can
you say we are all firends anyway?
Also, I never said "secret" in a physical context. But that's a good point. There are many unpublished and untold sites like Bruce mentioned. Only
the outsiders popularize these places if they can. The locals have known about them for millenia.
[Edited on 6-8-2006 by Sharksbaja]
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64489
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Perhaps I took your posts too personally... as I have never published the GPS of a site someone shared with me and asked me not to. Also, if it is an
unknown 'lost mission' that could be vandalized by treasure hunters, than no, I would not share that.
I do have contacts in INAH, and my reports have been praised. Awareness of historic sites is a better way to preserve them.
All the mission sites I have GPSed and photographed are not unknown... All have been written about in books.
Petroglyphs are all over Baja and I was excited to find some that I never read about, but they are next to a formerly well used ranch road that was
used for the Baja 2000 and previous races. Hardly a 'secret' location...
Would it be somehow different if I wrote another Baja guidebook and put all the cool places in it, and sold that book?
I am sharing my trips with you Nomads, for free... as do others. That's what the Trip Reports Forum is for, afterall...
I sure don't think I am better than any other Nomad. I don't have the right to withhold my trip details, because I do think the rest of you are
worthy.
Because you have joined Doug's Baja 'club' and are here, you ARE worthy!
Down with elitism! Up with Baja loving people!
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Baja&Back
Senior Nomad
Posts: 549
Registered: 9-10-2004
Location: Vancouver, Canada / todo de Baja
Member Is Offline
Mood: Rarin' to go South!
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Wow. I gotta applaude David on this one. That was a well thought out & bang on post.
In the past, I've known of secret places vandalized by the few who knew of them, until many more came along and curbed that activity. All over the
USA. Bet you all know of places like that, too. The locals are tagging the Catavina boulders less, now that more tourists travel the road and shake
fingers at the vandals.
It's when a secret gets so popular as to attract millions, like Grand Canyon, that Shark's concerns become valid. Like Cabo in '75 & Cabo now.
But - t'll be a looooong time before the Montevideo pinturas get that popular.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64489
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Thanks... I really think Sharks and I want the same thing... I just trust the viewers of this site more and am relying on them (us) to improve the
historic sites.
I have seen the little known places (like San Fernando petros and Las Pintas for example) get tagged... Spanish names, by the way... That was BEFORE I
published photos of them on the Internet.
I do think a lot more 'good' people are going to these sites now and that deters the bad behavior.
Once we Baja Nomads (from all countries) start showing up to appreciate these places on a regular basis I hope that helps protect the sites.
If I see some evidence that people are using GPS and Nomad to destroy sites is greater than all the good people who can enjoy them receive, I will
consider changing my reports.
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Mexitron
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3397
Registered: 9-21-2003
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy!
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If you've ever had a surf break all to yourselves for a week or two in deep, dark Baja, you've got to curb your enthusiasm to tell everyone so that
others can have the wonder of finding it for themselves just like you had it. Otherwise, surf camps and organized expeditions start appearing. Its
inevitable, of course, but I'd just as soon not bring the future to an area faster.
That said, as DK pointed out, some places like historic or archeological sites can possibly benefit from the attention.
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
Member Is Offline
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Of course we want the same thing
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Thanks... I really think Sharks and I want the same thing... I just trust the viewers of this site more and am relying on them (us) to improve the
historic sites.
I have seen the little known places (like San Fernando petros and Las Pintas for example) get tagged... Spanish names, by the way... That was BEFORE I
published photos of them on the Internet.
I do think a lot more 'good' people are going to these sites now and that deters the bad behavior.
Once we Baja Nomads (from all countries) start showing up to appreciate these places on a regular basis I hope that helps protect the sites.
If I see some evidence that people are using GPS and Nomad to destroy sites is greater than all the good people who can enjoy them receive, I will
consider changing my reports. |
if you can guarantee that you can expect disclosures of such sensitive places to be respected. I use the term "secret" very loosely David . I am sure
some of us have been to sacred sites that were never and will never be divulged to the general public and should not be. I know you totally agree. I
worry you might tho inadvertantly because you are so willing to share your finds.
As far as damage and pilfering goes, you would be alarmed at who does what out there.
Now with that said, I still don't know how many respond to detailed directions to them. It is certainly a crowd I DO trust on this board those who
are actually an active part of it.
This post was NOT particularily intended at targeted them either. My fear and basic concern lies in the fact that these shared bits of info ends up
on some pendajos Google inquiry,courtesy of ????
One more note: As was mentioned before. Like a cheat book for a video game, somehow I feel that the disclosure kind of thing takes that "thrill of
discovery" out of the fun equation.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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