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Cincodemayo
Senior Nomad
Posts: 725
Registered: 3-7-2005
Location: Pacific NW
Member Is Offline
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You want trash? When I was in Bali there were plastic bags everywhere...rivers, streets,sidewalks,next to garbage cans...The main perpetrators were
the Balinese! Walked by a big tour bus on the way to a waterfall and the Balinese bus driver was sweeping all the garbage out of the bus into the
street and left it blowing in the wind! I was amazed at the gall in his own country....Doubt in all my travels to Mexico that I've ever seen a local
Mexican ever pick up any trash that has been on the ground unless it was an employee of a hotel or restaurant. Outside of their employment forget
it....it will blow into the wind. Pretty sad that they can't have any self worth to make things better for even their enjoyment and envoirnment.
Here in Washington State and I'm sure many other states, companies adopt stretches of freeway and highways, the employees get out on their own time
and clean all the trash off the landscape and the state comes to pick up all the piles of bags. That's the way it should be... respect the
envoirnment.
We use to hike into Tahquitz Falls in Palm Springs with beer and wine and always pack out the empties but would continually find empty crap all over
and pack it out too....they can carry it all in full but leave the trash for others. LOSERS!!!
Don\'t get mad...
Get EVEN.
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Al G
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2647
Registered: 12-19-2004
Location: Todos Santos/Full time for now...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Wondering what is next???
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
---------I do not feel in the least constricted here in the USA, and I have been around for a long time. Most of the new laws make sense to me, and I
am a flaming Conservative.
Yes, I originally went to Baja because it felt like my fantasy of the frontier west, and I miss that feeling, but the Baja of today is sorta out of
control, IMHO-----------and there are dozens of "theories" as to why that happens.
But the "theory" that boggles my mind the most is the excuses for littering---------there are no excuses for littering------------it is called
"soiling your own nest" and it is sub-human behavior, IMHO. |
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Right on Barry I lived through the US dirty period, and I will live through Baja's. I see the laws protecting all, as a much more
important freedom. Enough said!
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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bajaden
Nomad
Posts: 496
Registered: 4-7-2005
Location: Ensenada
Member Is Offline
Mood: vicarious
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As I said. Pick your poison. An inperfect world occupied by imperfect people. Current company excluded of course. Excuse me, gotta go put out the
trash.
At a feast of egos, everyone leave\'s hungry...
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DanO
Super Nomad
Posts: 1923
Registered: 8-26-2003
Location: Not far from the Pacific
Member Is Offline
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My dad loves to tell this story:
In the early 80s, he spent a couple of years sailing up and down the SOC, picking up tourists for a few bucks here and there. At the end of one trip,
he was registering with the Capitano del Puerto in La Paz. My dad took his carefully collected trash with him to meet the officer of the Capitano's
office, so he could dispose of it there. When my dad inquired about where to get rid of it, the officer told him he'd take care of it, picked it up,
walked out to the water and threw it in.
Anyway, I can't make blanket assertions. Over this past holiday weekend at La Bocana, we saw plenty of folks leaving trash and plenty of others
packing it out.
\"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.\" -- Frank Zappa
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
Posts: 2962
Registered: 8-31-2003
Location: Sunset Beach
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Mood: Just dancing through life
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Bajaden
We are still on the same page--I vote for an inperfect world with inperfect people.
I rather doubt that even those people who pass the laws know or understand what they mean and what they are intended to do--Example now the littering
laws in California carry a fine of $1,000.00. How many cops do you believe are CS enough to write a ticket for littering when they know that it will
cause someone to be subject to losing a thousand bucks from his two or three thousand monthly salary. Not many and that is why we are seeing a rise
in littering on our freeways in Southern California--its not plastic bags but sofas etc.
Oh! Yeah Take a look at the beaches in San Diego and points north after a holiday--I have seen nothing like that in Baja--ever! Sub human indeed!
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64486
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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I am wondering if the sofas, etc. are more an example of less and less dumps (landfills) that are within easy driving distance and/ or the price they
charge to dump at these 'public' landfills?
I think Mexico will soon catch up... as I remember the 60's enough to know we gringos used to throw trash out the car windows pretty heavily....
Then came "give a hoot, don't pollute" and the crying Indian...
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
Posts: 2962
Registered: 8-31-2003
Location: Sunset Beach
Member Is Offline
Mood: Just dancing through life
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David
You have a point about available dumps and the cost. But how many true dumps do you know of in Baja. I'm not talking about the "self serve" arroyos
that flush out to sea after each big rain. Real dumps with Cats to cover the stuff ect.
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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Bernie-----
Every cop that I worked with would have loved to catch a litterer, and cited him NOW----------they are extremely hard to catch--------we did try tho,
and occasionally we caught them. The fine should be $2000, and in some places it is. Nothing CS about it.
I can guarantee you that I would arrest anyone caught littering, if I had them dead to rights, and if I could articulate that I thought they would do
it again.
Barry
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64486
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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It is the cost of a cat Bernie... that seems to be what keeps most towns from operating a landfill.
Maybe the next Rosario festival could raise money for one for that otherwise beautiful place!
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Mango
Senior Nomad
Posts: 685
Registered: 4-11-2006
Location: Alta California &/or Mexicali
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bajatastic
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The first time I went to Mexico I took a bus from Mexicali to Mazatlan. I was amazed at the amount of plastic bags strewn throughout the northern
deserts.
Over my years of travels throughout Mexico I have often thought about the all the trash throughout the countryside, the reasons for it, and the
solutions.
On that first trip I took the train from Puebla to Oaxaca. During the 10 hour train trip I befriended a 21 year old university student on his way
home. After eating or drinking he would simply throw his trash out the window. I knew that was the "norm" but I refused to throw my trash out the
window and wedged it between my seat and the wall. He asked me why I did not throw it out. I said it was very pretty outside and I did not want to
litter. Towards the end of the trip my newfound friend finished a soda... and kept the empty bottle with him. I like to think he realized that I
cared about the earth, his country, and respected both enough not to litter. I also like to think that he "changed" a little for the better.
Plastic has been around for only 40 years or so. Mostly it has been the last 20 years that it has really taken hold there in the form of bottles and
bags. Historically, most refuse or trash that was produced in Mexican towns was organic in nature. (tortillas, paper, wood, fruit, etc.) In the
past the trash decomposed, today some of it waits 40,000 years.
There was and is no official trash service in most rural mexican towns and villages. Often people simply discard the trash, let the dogs scrounge on
it, and burn it when the pile gets high enough. In the past when trash was brought to the local dump or burned it simply went "away" This is how it
has been done in Mexico for centuries. A town will dump their trash in an arroyo and it "magically" dissapears during the next rainy season. Problem
solved, unless you live downstream.
These methods are tried and true methods of dealing with trash. Even today there is no better way in many areas. You can put your soda bottle in the
trash can in the plaza and it will wind up in the arroyo the next day. Do you want your trash here, or over there?
It is not that the society is inherently dirty or lazy. They just have no other alternitive in many cases. Most large Mexican cities are very clean
in the central areas. The streets are swept, the sidewalks are washed, and landscaping cared for. The poor areas on the outskirts of town are
usually a different story.
Today, the biggest problem with trash disposal in Mexico is the lack of official dumps, no offical trucks to take trash to the dumps, and the cost to
the average citizen. Why would someone who is very poor pay somebody to truck the trash away when they could just dump it at the edge of town/road
for free? The root of the problem is cultural and introduction of non-biodegradable trash... the current problem is economics and education.
Alas.. onto plastic bags. I think we see so many because they are light and blow around the countryside, fly into the air and stick into bushes and
trees(unlike bottles and cans), and are of a light color and highly noticeable.
I think plastic bags and bottles suck. I hate the smell of burning plastic like no other. If I were in charge everyone would be drinking out of
glass like the old days and you'd have to bring your own bag.. so you'd better not let it fly out of your truck on the highway.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64486
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Well stated Mango... Welcome to Nomad!
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Frank
Senior Nomad
Posts: 861
Registered: 6-5-2005
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Is it time to leave yet?
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Ahhh I think we have a winner, Mango.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
Member Is Offline
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Small pueblos face trash problems that are hard to see. We have a landfill, 2 big trucks, garbage crews who do an admirable job, are paid by the
village. The service is free. The reason the service is free is that there is no way to make a charge -- the village eats the expense because they
understand that complication. The homeowners have no incentive to pay anyone to haul off their garbage. If homeowners don't pay for services (water,
electric, taxes) they lose the service or face fines or both but with garbage it would just lay in the street until somebody took action. Here there
are no house numbers, no mail delivery, no mail pickup, no checks, no paypoint so, over time, they got the picture, worked it out --- free, fast,
courteous pickup. Some of us villagers drive the 6 miles to the dump at times to "lighten the load". Most gringos give nice propinas at Xmas to the
crews and I've made more than one trip to city hall to thank them for the service.
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Natalie Ann
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2819
Registered: 8-22-2003
Location: Berkeley
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Don Jorge
About the plastic "trash" bags. Everyone in Mexico knows those are really rainsuits.
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Some folks in US know that also:
Be yourself, everyone else is already taken.
.....Oscar Wilde
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
Posts: 2962
Registered: 8-31-2003
Location: Sunset Beach
Member Is Offline
Mood: Just dancing through life
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| Quote: | Originally
It is not that the society is inherently dirty or lazy. They just have no other alternitive in many cases. Most large Mexican cities are very clean
in the central areas. The streets are swept, the sidewalks are washed, and landscaping cared for. The poor areas on the outskirts of town are
usually a different story.
Today, the biggest problem with trash disposal in Mexico is the lack of official dumps, no offical trucks to take trash to the dumps, and the cost to
the average citizen. Why would someone who is very poor pay somebody to truck the trash away when they could just dump it at the edge of town/road
for free? The root of the problem is cultural and introduction of non-biodegradable trash... the current problem is economics and education.
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Mango,
Welcome, You said it very nicely! I also dislike the plastic stuff that society is drowning itself in. What to do? San Fransisco is talking about a
tax of 17cents on each market shopping bag (plastic). I don't know the answer--but--labeling the Mexicans as sub human just does not cut it with
me.
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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Natalie Ann
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2819
Registered: 8-22-2003
Location: Berkeley
Member Is Offline
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Charles Tucker's former housekeeper Isabel did not like litter. She had a special way with plastic bags.... folded them origami style into the
teensiest little box shapes, all tucked and neat at the corners. She then put those in a special drawer to save. Used to drive Charles nuts.
About once a month, Charles would clean out that drawer and send all the little plastic boxes to the dump. I suspect it takes those tightly folded
bags a longer time to decompose than it takes when they are full open to the elements.
Be yourself, everyone else is already taken.
.....Oscar Wilde
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jerry
Super Nomad
Posts: 1354
Registered: 10-10-2003
Location: loreto
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i think this is a culturl thing its been going on for a log time i dont think the mexicans are sub human i just think they need to be educatied as to
how litter effects them directly
i dont think they give littering a second thought .as time and education goes on the problem will take care of itself.
in the states not too many years ago before the deposit on can and bottles and before plastic bags we had the same problems
once it was brought to our attention the bottle bills were passed and now we have the water bottles to deal with and they will be delt with one way
or the other we will get educated by the allmighty $buck$
and in mexico i think it will happen the same way. its hard to believe that they just recently started making disposable beer bottles , no deposit no
return .a big step backwords. but perhaps it will make the problem wide spread and bad enoff that a over all action will be taken. either way it will
be money that will solve the problem and educate the people
have a good one
jerry and judi
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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Mexicans are NOT sub-human------
------and I never said they were. This statement above by Bernie is a mis-representation of what I DID say. I said, "people that litter are acting
sub-human" i.e. "soiling their own nest" (like an animal??). Many Mexicans that I know do not litter----many others apparently do, as is true with
all races and cultures.
I believe that Mango's ideas on littering are valid, and well thought out, but I still believe that litterers are ACTING in a sub-human way (animal
like), but I can partially except that some may have little choice, in the instances cited by Mango.
In the California town my son lives in, there is no formal trash collection--------everybody hauls their own trash to the dump, 3 miles away, and they
have to pay to dump tho it is not much. There is practically no litter in town, or around town in the surrounding desert. It can be done.
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
Registered: 9-20-2004
Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
Member Is Offline
Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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going to repost this here because it seems to apply
are they acting sub human or just out of the normal for society as you know it?
you know it is a funny thing about society and the way we live and the rules that we live under. a wise man once told me that nothing is wrong until
someone says it is wrong. how dose that apply here? well if you live in a society where every one thoughts there garbage down were ever they are and
you don't then you are the odd ball. until a few years ago most Bajaicans thought they were beatifying the desert when they painted the rocks along
the Highway
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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Bruce------------
---------are you implying (saying??) that it is "normal" for some humans to live in trash???? simply because they don't know that it is not "right"?
Then how can you explain the dozens of ranchos in the back country that are essentially litter-free, and have been that way since I first started
going down into Baja in the late 40's? Are these vaqueros "odd"? or are they at peace with there surroundings? I think they are at peace with their
surroundings, unlike the folks that litter.
I repeat------some things are OBVIOUS, and have nothing to do with laws, to most folks. Not littering is one of them.
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