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Oso
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A brief primer on Surnames and honorifics
Recently, some posters (all gringos), have referred to Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador as "Obrador". This is not a correct usage in Mexico or Latin
America. Obrador is the man's mother's maiden name.
It is common to refer to politicians by their paternal and maternal surnames. That's why you occasionally hear or see "Fox Quesada" in reference to
the current presidente. BTW, his first name is "Vicente", which is more or less the Spanish equivalent of the English "Vincent", but "Vincente" is
not in common usage in either language. (I know a name can be anything a person chooses or his/her parents condemned them to, and I'm not touching
the subject of African-American Professional Athlete's names with an eleven foot Slav)
Slightly less common, but increasingly seen in deference to English language media, is the use of just the paternal surname, i.e.; "Fox". So, by that
space-saving custom, AMLO would be referred to as "Lopez".
Then we come to the honorific "Don" which is commonly used beyond the confines of episodes of "The Sopranos". The female equivalent is "Do?a". These
are simple marks of respect, widely misunderstood throughout English literature..
In direct address, these are used with the person's first name. In the third person, they can be used with the person's first name or full name.
When introducing someone of respect, it should precede the full name or at least first name and paternal surname. In other countries and languages,
it may vary. But in Mexico, the honorific is NEVER used with only the surname.
Correct: Don Vicente, Don Andres.
Formal: Don Vicente Fox, Don Andres Manuel Lopez
More formal: Don Vicente Fox Quesada, Don Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador
OK: Fox, Lopez
Common Media: Fox Quesada, Lopez Obrador
Wrong: Don Fox, Don Quesada, Don Lopez, Don Obrador,
Familiar: Chente, El Botudo, AMLO, El Peje
Odd note; Although you are never wrong in addressing a relatively mature lady as "Se?ora" or a younger one as "Se?orita" and you may attempt flattery
with the latter within a certain imprecise zone, subject to correction, it is permissable to show respect by addressing a lady as simply "Do?a"
without attaching a name. However, I have never heard of addressing a man as simply "Don" without an attached name. (Unless, of course, his name is
Donald or Donaldo.)
Argument to the contrary and-or further enlightenment welcome.
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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oxxo
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Interesing! What can you tell me about the salutation "Maestro"? How is that used and when?
Thanks.
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woody with a view
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i've always enjoyed seeing the sparkle in someone's eye when i called them, "Don or Dona".
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Paula
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No argument from me on the above, it's all good clear information. My further question is about Latin names in general.
So Jose Sanchez Navarro marries Maria Valdez Llosa. Their son will be Carlos Sanchez Valdez? Their daughter could be Anna Sanchez Valdez? Anna
marries Pedro Gomez Alvarez, and gives birth to Clara Gomez Sanchez, who is the granddaughter of Jose and Maria. If Clara weds Juan Vargas Salas,
Their son could be Juan Jose Vargas Gomez?
Going back to Carlos, he might marry Lupe Murillo Alvarez, their son could be Jose Sanchez Murillo, and Jose's son could be Carlos Sanchez Fuerte?
And then Carlos' daughter may be Maria Sanchez Trujillo? And her son could conceivably be Juan Bautista Sanchez? Etc. Etc.?   
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Oso
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Yep
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Oso
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oxxo
Interesing! What can you tell me about the salutation "Maestro"? How is that used and when?
Thanks. |
Maestro- teacher or master. commonly used as an honorific for teachers and * skilled craftsman, i.e.; mechanic, plumber, carpenter.
* I have had skilled tradesmen tell me there is a difference, that I was a "maestro" because I taught esoteric crap like another language in a
classroom and that they were less and the pronunciation was different, i.e.; "maistro", but I don't buy it. I've always considered any person with
special knowledge of anything to be a "maestro". Addressing a mechanic by that term should get you a point or two. As far as politicos are
concerned, anyone with the equivalent of a BA is a "Licienciado", a BS gets you "Ingeniero" and a Master's gets you "Maestro" (Lopez Mateos was
addressed by that title). A PHD is, like in the US, worth being called "Doctor".
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Oso
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True. Although it would be correct enough, I haven't seen it in use either. It's always AMLO, Lopez Obrador, or El Peje. The same was true of Lopez
Mateos. Maybe just plain Lopez doesn't get enough respect. Too much like "Smith" or "Jones"? On the other hand, I've never heard either Card##as,
Lazaro or Cuahutemoc, referred to with both paternal and maternal surnames. I don't even know what the latter is in either case.
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Paula
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Fox did well to omit the Quesada from everyday use in his name, as the one syllable sound is catchy and memorable.For Lopez Obrador not to use both
names would have been politicaly foolish, especially as a PRD candidate.
Is obrador ever used as a noun form of obrar, like trabajador is to trabajar?
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Don Alley
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My middle name is William, so often in Mexico I am called Mr. William or Senor William by officials who have access to my full name on documents.
Recently I flew from Loreto to SD on Aero Mexico. The lady at the ticket counter got a little sloppy, and typed in my middle name and I ended up with
a ticket in the name of Debra Williams.
Well, I didn't want to fly as "Debra Williams" but an airline official said it's too late to change the ticket and don't worry about it. The same
official checked my ID before boarding, holding the ID and "Debra Williams" boarding pass together as if making sure the names matched.
When I arrived at customes at SD and handed her my passport, she types in her computer and says, "um, Mr. Alley, did you travel under a different
name?" 
Having the first name Don is interestiing too.
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Dave
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Good primer. But what interests me more is the origin of family names and their relationship to certain ethnic groups, specifically, crypto-Jews.
Latino custom of the inclusion of a mother's maiden name is a tradition born out of Sephardic Jewish practice.
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Cypress
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Thanks! My southern upbringing has taught me a thing or two about respect. Yes Mam, Sir, etc. It's only being polite! Will do my best to express the
same respect when down in Baja. Gotta learn the proper words in Spanish in order to be respectful.
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bajajudy
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I always blush when some one says, Si Senorita. I think that it is expected of me. I will sometimes add....a wink and gracias.
The wink is easy,
the blush is not
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zforbes
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Yes, ma'am
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
Thanks! My southern upbringing has taught me a thing or two about respect. Yes Mam, Sir, etc. It's only being polite! |
When I started getting "Yes, Ma'am" in English, I knew I was an "older" woman!
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Oso
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| Quote: | Originally posted by zforbes
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
Thanks! My southern upbringing has taught me a thing or two about respect. Yes Mam, Sir, etc. It's only being polite! |
When I started getting "Yes, Ma'am" in English, I knew I was an "older" woman! |
Ouch! That one brings painful memory of that "transitional" age when mistaking a
smile for an invitation, I would prepare to hit on a hotty only to be stopped dead in my tracks with a polite "Sir".
Pop!, Fweeeeeee... (The sound of a rapidly deflating ego).
These days if it WAS a flirtatious invitation, I probably wouldn't know what to do about it.
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Oso
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
| Quote: | Originally posted by Paula
Is obrador ever used as a noun form of obrar, like trabajador is to trabajar? |
Not sure where you're going with this, but the only time I've ever heard the verb "obrar" used was in a doctor's office, with the meaning... well,
uh... to defecate. 
--Larry |
There is a rather long column of meanings for obra in my unabridged LaRousse. I suspect that obrador was an archaic form of the more common modern
term obrero. Now, obrador as a noun means workshop (taller) and as an adjective means working (functioning). ...misnomer for a politico?...
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Oso
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Don Don?
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Oso
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BTW, I have heard that usage, even emphasis, of the maternal maiden name is sometimes a consequence of the prominence of that side of the family.
Makes sense. How many people have you heard referred to as a "Kennedy", who don't have that surname.
On the other hand, people sometimes change their names. How many Hitlers and Mussolinis do you see in the phone book?
Over a hundred years ago, my suegro's family name was "Sanchez De La Barca". a rather aristocratic handle, but around the time of "La Bola" (the 1910
revolution), aristocrats weren't too popular and they all quietly became Hernandez.
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Paula
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Zoe, I hear you about that ma'am thing! I jsut like to be called Paula. Hey you is my 2nd choice.
Oso, another interesting name is Hidalgo, an aristocratic name that is a contraction of hijo de algo, or son of somebody. It seems like there are
fewer surnames in Spanish than in English, especially here in the melting pot, and maybe using the mother's maiden name helps to determine who is who.
Lencho, That isn't where I was going with that. Just work/worker. I just think Obrador is a fortunate name for the candidate of the workingman's
party.
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AmoPescar
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OSO...
Thanks for helping us understand it! It's alway been a bit confusing to me.
Regarding the growing older postings...
I started feeling older when waitresses and counter help starting
giving me a SENIOR discount with out asking if I was old enough to
get it.
And...I'm still 10 years away from the age most give it.
But Hey...if they give it, I'm happy to take it.
Amo Pescar
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Baja Bernie
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Oso
And then their is our friend Don Jimmy Smith's wife---
Do?a Guadalupe del Socorra Romero Lopez de Smith--
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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