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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Cultural differances, ain't they fun!
I started this topic as a place to discuss cultural differences. I wonder if they can be discussed without rancor and just as differences.
I notice that when I ask directions in Mexico that the person I have asked will often give me directions, even when I sense that they really don't
know the direction. Are they just trying to please and give some hope that I will find something? Are they not wanting to displease by saying “I don’t
know”? Is it not ok to not have an answer? I am curious about this phenomenon.
I have experienced people in the height of good feelings and good will offer to meet me or do something or other and then not be there or do what they
say they will do. I wonder if this is the product of living “in the moment” so that the expression of positive social outcome, i.e. “I will meet you
for dinner tomorrow evening” means “I am enjoying your and our interaction” enough that I would even continue it at some time if that worked out”?
In the Book Men are From Venus and Women Mars, or something like that, or Tannen’s You Don’t Understand me, the author talked about the psychological
level transaction that underlies woman’s’ interactions, it goes some thing like this, “how are we doing?”, “are we ok with each other now?” Observing
men interacting with each other his/her, view was that they were interested in dominance and control, or social positioning. “Who is on top,” “Who is
the most expert, stronger, most knowledgeable”? Etc. If this paradigm holds true, I wonder if those Mexican people that I have mentioned above are
simply operating out of a more “feminine” mode of interaction where the focus on the relationship in the now is paramount?
Brain science has taught us that the left-brain is the rational, logical side, while the right-brain is the more intuitive, affectively focused lobe.
In this context men would tend more toward left dominance while women more the right. Again stereotypes but some general truth to this proposition I
think. Using this paradigm is the typical Mexican more likely to be right brained?
Notice I am not making a value judgment as to which side of the brain is superior, or which function is preferable, hopefully we would have
significant balance in our domain dominance.
We need both.
I know that there are native Mexicans on this list and I would be interested in hearing from them also what differences they notice. One that I have
heard is that the Norte Americano are always in a hurry, that they are rude because they do not take time to inquire about the family etc.
I think that this is a topic that often leads to misunderstanding between peoples because these differences often generate negative feelings based
upon misunderstandings of the other cultures ways of doing things. I noticed in a discussion on another topic that a couple of Nomads seemed to have
their feelings hurt when discussing this sort of cultural difference. That saddened me. I think it can be difficult to discuss these things without
one or the other feeling insulted. However if one can see these as only differences then greater understanding can occur. If I interpret my friends
not showing up for lunch as he said he would as a slight or insult to me, as I would if a Norte Americano did the same, then I might be missing a
deeper connection or cultural difference. I might miss entirely that he was saying how much he enjoyed me when he said he was going to meet me for
lunch.
Anyway, I hope others will share some of the differences that they have noticed. I think this could be a very interesting discussion. Just please
don’t start your sentances with Mexicans do…….or Norte Americano’s do……….. Not all Mexicans are the same nor are all Norte Americano’s. There are
regional differences in the US of A that one can notice as one travels. I have noticed this in Mexico also. What is your experience with this? I
wonder if our native Mexican Nomads have noticed these differences when traveling up north?
Iflyfish when not stirring up hornets nests
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bajabound2005
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2760
Registered: 10-15-2005
Location: Punta Banda, BCN
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Mood: words cannot describe...
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don't count on it
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Diver
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 11-15-2004
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I can't find it but someone has posted some wonderful stories as examples of mexican cultural differences. One I am thinking of is about the man who
asked his Mexican neighbor about the dog's leg and the Mexican named the dog for the gringo....... Can anyone remember this one or others ??
I'm thinking it was either Oso, Osprey or Hose A that made the posts ???
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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bajabound,
Are those marachas or boxing gloves?
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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I heard the one about the German couple taking their dog to the Korean restaurant................. you know the rest of the story.
Iflyfish when not cleaning my teeth
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bajabound2005
Ultra Nomad
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Location: Punta Banda, BCN
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no boxing gloves, mi amigo, just a warning where this could go; and from here on for this subject, I bid you buena suerte...not that it would not be
interesting, just have your shield poised! Oh, I think you mean "maracas" as opposed to "marachas". Definition of maracas: "A Latin-American
percussion instrument consisting of a hollow-gourd rattle containing pebbles or beans and often played in pairs." For "marachas": No results found
for marachas.
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villadelfin
Nomad
Posts: 273
Registered: 4-8-2006
Location: La Paz
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Mood: toasted and buttered
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| Quote: | bajabound,
Are those marachas or boxing gloves?
Iflyfish |
| Quote: | | Iflyfish when not stirring up hornets nests |
Doesn't that say it all?
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Indeed, I do mean maracas. Thanks for the solution to my terrible spelling of this particular Spanish word, there are many. I never learned to write
Spanish, only to speak it in the most rudimentary form. Beer, eggs over easy, toilet (which I only recently discovered was a shower) that I was asking
for.
We once had the experience of trying to find the Palenque, you know the place where the chickens duke it out. We ended up asking where we could find
the poyo olympiad. It worked. Thank goodness, for the patients of the Mexicans who I have met who have put up with this sort of thing? I wonder if
some of our native Mexican Nomads have heard us ask for funny things. Have you ever noticed Norte's who when trying to learn Spanish talk louder if
they are not understood?
I used to be offended when I was called wayo, or white guy, or gordo, fat guy till I found that it is typical in Mexico to refer to someone by their
most noticeable feature. Like bajabound, I'll bet they call you maracas down south. When I got a very bad sunburn I was called longusta for a very
long time.
I notice that most often Mexican children are very polite and don't whine like I so commonly see them do in the North. Are they more secure? Do the
children of the Nortes seem anxious to native Mexicans?
I had a friend Dewey in third grade in San Jose. His family had just moved from Mexico. I just moved from North Dakota. Dewey was my first Mexican
friend. Dewey insisted that he was Spanish. I insisted he was Mexican. I kept trying to convince him that since he immigrated from Mexico that he must
be Mexican. Nope, "Spanish" he would proclaim. That really confused me. I guess it would be like me insisting that I was Icelandic if pressed on my
country of origin. I guess the answer depends on how far you want to go back. Interesting. I guess that issue relates to who we identify with.
Iflyfish when not pondering what to do with too much time on my hands
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
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Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Diver, that was me with the cultural stuff. I'll dig out a couple of short tales that I hope won't offend anybody. For now: Flyguy has already
nailed a big part of it.
1. As travel in the Americas increased in the 1800s Mexicans had and earned the reputation of courtesy so much that it was used this way "He was as
courteous as a Mexican."
2. Because of our living by the clock culture, gringos don't pay enough attention to tribal customs, greetings, taking beverages, food, exchanging
chit chat in any countries they visit, not just Mexico.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
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Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Here's a little disclaimer before I post more little culture things -- my tombstone will read "Don't go by me". Nothing sinister intended -- just
some random thoughts from a harmless old man.
Inside
The cactus wren steps carefully, gingerly, between the thorns of the cholla to build its nest. She lines the nest with twigs, strips of palm, bits
of shredded bark until the nest is protecting the bird, later the tiny delicate eggs, and eventually chicks, from the tips of the deadly spikes.
Like the cholla, Mexico protects its way of life, continues its slow, steady breathing, preserving the core heat of the millions of people it holds,
nurtures, by producing spikes and thorns of another kind. They are just as sharp, waiting to prick and puncture invaders with thin skin or clumsy
movement.
The cactus stands motionless. Waiting. Mexico waits, admits the faceless pilgrims, the uninvited fat, pink immigrants. No need for a fence south
of the Rio Grande. No sudden skirmishes, no more guns and swords; the bloody collision of divergent cultures -- that was the age of Cortez. New
World cultures grind slowly, inexorably past those of Old Mexico. The grinding bruises everyone.
The pink ones suffer kindness unrequited, social slights. Unreturned visits, gifts, pleasantries can sting and bruise. Newcomers may perceive a
real or imagined meanness in the manner of those officials, public servants, who can smooth their path but often wear the thorns of duplicity. A
system biased and unjust can chaff and insult anyone not insulated by the accident of being born on Mexican soil.
The Americans. The Americans and the Canadians bruise, bleed more than most. They have been softened, weakened by decades of warm winds and full
bellies. Many run back bleeding, frightened, disappointed.
Those that stay have not changed, have not grown stronger -- like the wren, they have found the secret. They can only feel safe and warm after they
have experienced all the cuts, bruises on the thorny top layer of the place; after they have fought their way inside.
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Wiles
Nomad
Posts: 337
Registered: 10-1-2006
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Osprey...Your words should be posted on billboards at every border crossing. It should appear on every tourist permit with "I agree" signature
required as a disclaimer for validation of the permit and entry.
Well Done
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Bajalero
Nomad
Posts: 316
Registered: 11-24-2003
Location: todos santos/ rcho san diego
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Ifyfish
Your first mistake, and a common one as an outsider, is to question why Mexicans are as you describe.
You'll be miles ahead just to accept what you know and deal with it . You'll also get along better with them and garner more respect from them.
One place you don't want to spend a lot of time analyzing is Mexico . Just when you think you have it figured out it'll turn around and bite you in
the burro.
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longlegsinlapaz
Super Nomad
Posts: 1685
Registered: 11-18-2005
Location: La Paz
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I’m sorry, but I don’t understand the big taboo about respectfully discussing cultural differences. The definition of “different”
certainly doesn’t infer bad, odd, weird, inferior or any other negative connotation; it simply means not the same. IMHO, I think it’s better to be
aware that there ARE cultural differences & to be aware of what those differences may be. Too many people come to Mexico with their own cultural
expectations, which can lead to rudeness & disrespect for not having their expectations met. It can also lead to having their bubbles burst &
dissatisfaction over what reality is versus their expectations. Knowing in advance what some of the cultural differences are, removes the rose
colored glasses & I think that personal expectations can be set aside to allow for a smoother transition & acceptance of the differences.
I believe it’s a combination of the entire atmosphere that attracts us initially; the unique & awesome landscape, different climate, the warmth of
the people, cultural diversity…to name a few. We should know, respect & celebrate those differences! Whether we fully understand them or not, we
do need to respect them, for they are an inherent part of our host country. If we expect everything to be the same as wherever we come from, then
there wouldn’t be any desire or need to venture this far from our roots!
I have talked with my Mexican friends about our cultural differences, I tried to explain where I’m coming from & how most Norteamericanos think,
feel, & why, and they’ve attempted to get me to understand the same from their perspective. Some of these conversations were very enlightening,
some frustrating, but they were all amiable! We each came away with a better respect, if not understanding, of our cultural differences; and in some
instances, we have agreed to disagree! There are some things we will never see totally eye-to-eye on, but we each accept that!
Understanding that there are cultural differences is the first step, attempting to understand those differences is the second step, acceptance, or at
a minimum, tolerance of those differences is the ultimate step!
I will be the first to want this thread removed if it becomes a shooting gallery! It IS possible to have a respectful discussion without name-calling
or stereotypical mud-slinging posts.
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
Registered: 9-20-2004
Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
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Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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an experiment for you to do.....have a party and invite every mexicano you know they will all tell you they will be there Even if they know they are
not going to be able to make it. they will never say I cant make it because I will be out of town,
a must read book on this is.... Baja Ha Ha. if you haven't read it in the last couple years read it again.
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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Yes, I think understanding the differences is good---different is why we love to travel in all of Mexico. Just some of my observations and
thoughts---none are negative, just different.
Working south of the border--
In staff meetings, we want to get to the point quickly, but in the more polite society, personal interation is an important first step, and
often the point is traveled around in a circle.
When we paid rent, we really just wanted to pay it and move on, but if our landlord was home, it required a social occasion. We always seem to
be in too much of a hurry to really be social.
We had to learn not to just approach a co-worker with a question without the polite greetings and questions first.
Learned as a teacher south of the border and in Calexico with lots of students from Mexico.
Essay writing in Mexico is very different. Long sentences, long paragraphs, wandering off topic and often circles around the topic. In
preparing these students for taking the AP U.S. History Exam, I had to teach them the get to the point gringo style. As I told them, one style is not
better than the other, but they needed to write with the audience in mind.
One student with a Mexican mother and a German- American father used to tell me about family gatherings and how she was torn between the two
cultures. When she was with dad's family, the children all behaved quietly and proper, as did the adults---usually a rather quiet affair. Then with
her mother's family, it was louder, wild, and a lot more fun for children and adults, but for her, sometimes embarassing when her German-American side
kicked in.
There are a lot more things I have learned over the years. Different is just different, nothing more.
Diane
[Edited on 11-29-2006 by jdtrotter]
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Bajalero,
My mind operates in this way. I have a curious nature and still retain a sense of wonder. I like to understand differances. I think I will always
question.
For me there is much to be learned by studying differances. I enjoy learning. We may have stumbled on a cultural differance. To your mind it is a
mistake to question the why of things. To me these questions are part of how I form a "big picture" of things. You are advising me not to question,
these questions may be considered insulting or offensive just by the fact that I am asking.
I want you to know that I have had a wonderful time in Mexico and am well loved and enjoyed. I am missed when I am gone and welcomed back with open
arms. I get on very well with people. I enjoy people and appreciate differances. I know how to BE with people. The questions are those that go on in
my mind. My career was one of helping people deal with differances.
As to figuring it out, I used to love to play with mercury.
Thank you very much for your response. I appreciate your thoughts on this.
Iflyfish when not having my burro bit
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Osprey,
God I wish I could write like that!
I have to run, will read more later. I am so glad we are discussing this topic. Thanks to all.
Iflyfish when not reading with humility Osprey's post
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
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Location: on the bayou
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You might say Osprey has a way with words.
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fdt
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4059
Registered: 9-7-2003
Location: Tijuana, Baja California
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Mood: Yeah, what if it all goes right
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
I know that there are native Mexicans on this list and I would be interested in hearing from them also what differences they notice. One that I have
heard is that the Norte Americano are always in a hurry, that they are rude because they do not take time to inquire about the family etc.
I think that this is a topic that often leads to misunderstanding between peoples because these differences often generate negative feelings based
upon misunderstandings of the other cultures ways of doing things.
Not all Mexicans are the same nor are all Norte Americano’s. There are regional differences in the US of A that one can notice as one travels. I have
noticed this in Mexico also. What is your experience with this? I wonder if our native Mexican Nomads have noticed these differences when traveling up
north?
Iflyfish when not stirring up hornets nests |
Ok, this is way to tempting, you want the mexican point of view, well it all depends on the mexican. I've traveled the US also and have gotten
"sometimes" by "some" americans the worst directions, advice, information, promises, etc. as I have from "some" mexicans. I realy get upset at it.
I've worked in the states and in México for very good companies and yes, meetings don't start on time, schedules are not kept, instructions are wrong
in both countries.
I don't thin that mexicans say yes or promise something just because they like to give as DK said, I don't think all mexicans just tell you yes they
will go to your party like BL said and not all mexicans socialize with the landlord. I strongly believe it has to do with education, as I was asking
the kids, mexicans, this morning ie if you were asked for directions for a place that you didn't know, would you give directions anyway? The answer
was no, and when I asked why the answer was that it would get them lost. I went further and asked if just to be polite, giving, respectful or any
other good thing they would give directions, the answer was still no.
This all has convinced me of inviting my children to be guests tonight at the radio show and the topic will be that cultural fun stuff. They are dual
citizens, they have lived in both countries, have gone to school in both, have relatives in both, watch both language television shows and so on. So
tune in and find out how it turns out. Thank's Iflyfish for the idea.
A well informed Baja California traveler is a smart Baja California traveler!
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DanO
Super Nomad
Posts: 1923
Registered: 8-26-2003
Location: Not far from the Pacific
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SAT question and answer:
"Osprey is to concise and insightful social commentary as DanO is to hamfisted and self-absorbed anecdotes."
Wow. Nail, meet your hammer. His name is Osprey.
\"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.\" -- Frank Zappa
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