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Don Alley
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Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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Loreto water meeting
GEA and the local University hosted a meeting on Loreto water issues today, featuring a study on available options authored by Sherwood Design
Engineers of San Francisco, sponsored by the International Community Foundation.
Some interesting facts:
The original source of Loreto groundwater has been contaminated by saltwater intrusion and rendered unsuitable for a domestic water supply over 20
years ago.
Loreto now recieves its water from wells in the San Juan Londo aquifer north of town. Fonatur guaranteed water from this source to the Loreto Bay
Company and LB has contracts to that effect with Loreto, which now controls that water, so LB gets its water from the same source.
Loreto uses enough water for a city of 27,000, due to waste, leaks, etc.
Water use is expected to grow by 2 to 10 times in the next 20 years.
A recent study by the University of Arizona suggests that the San Juan aquifer will be contaminated with salt water by 2025, perhaps earlier, under
all growth scenarios. That study was rejected by local, state and federal governments, instead a new study by the Mexican Federal water agency was
promised. That study has been completed. The results have not been released.
Current monitoring of the San Juan aquifer suggests that salt water intrusion from the gulf may never occur; instead, intrusion from deep thermal
sources is a more likely threat as the water table diminishes. Such an intrusion will result in contamination with arsenic and heavy metals and result
in the shutting down of the pumps.
The report had much information on desalinization:
There currently are no regulations or standards on building or siting such plants.
While the marine park is cited as a factor affecting the siting of a plant, the marine park representative at the meeting seemed to say that another
agency in Mexico City would make any decisions.
Desal returns 50% usable water, and 50% brine (approx). The water is treated with chemicals before filtration; those chemicals are left in the brine.
That may be one reason the brine is not marketable for salt even if further evaporation reduces it to a solid.
The report recommends a centralized system, both in terms of physical plant and regulation, instead of individual plants operated by different
entities.
Direct release of brine into the SOC is a "last option;" better options would be to find closed aquifers for deep well injection of the brine.
Most of this information is or will be available on the web on GEA's site and/or the International Community Foundation's. I'll get a link later but
now it's dinnertime.
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Crusoe
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Don.....Thanks so much for such a honest and clear report. ++C++
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rogerj1
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Has anyone heard of a new technology that extracts water from the moisture in the air?
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jerry
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Desal returns 50% usable water, and 50% brine (approx). The water is treated with chemicals before filtration; those chemicals are left in the brine.
That may be one reason the brine is not marketable for salt even if further evaporation reduces it to a solid
first Don thanks for the report
it would be very interesting just what the chemicals are and what problems they pose?? everything in this world is made up of chemicals
the word (MAY) goes a long way in both directions
any idea when the mexican federal agency report will be coming out??
if the iffluent from the treatment plant is mixed with the brine it will delute it and or help with a lot of the problems
im not advocating anything just keeping it between the lines
jerry and judi
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jerry
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Current monitoring of the San Juan aquifer suggests that salt water intrusion from the gulf may never occur; instead, intrusion from deep thermal
sources is a more likely threat as the water table diminishes. Such an intrusion will result in contamination with arsenic and heavy metals and result
in the shutting down of the pumps.
who is doing the monitoring now??
jerry and judi
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Crusoe
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Oh Yeah........ It works good as long as you got a high enough relative to humidity equation........One very good way to sample this is to... the
next time you are stuck on a remote Baja beach in your kayack with no water and no food and your in a place that is 100 miles from life( or water) and
you will be able to and can find an old plastic bag then...... take a small drinking cup and dig a place in the sand for the cup... and place the
cup under that spot,and clear away all the scorpions and other debris. A place in direct sunlight is the best. Place the cup in the sand and by
digging a small hole wait to get a drink, buy putting the cup under the bag. Or.....just go resarch the all the ways to do this. Its amazing to me
just how much nature will provide. You may have to lay still and think about life and watch all that you came there for, and never took the time to
see.Never ever has liquid tasted so good. The nicest sky and clouds will appear. ONLY IN BAJA!!! ++C++
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tehag
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Water
Thanks for the post. No BS.
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Don Alley
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Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jerry
it would be very interesting just what the chemicals are and what problems they pose?? everything in this world is made up of chemicals
the word (MAY) goes a long way in both directions
any idea when the mexican federal agency report will be coming out??
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Chemicals: These desal plants are the products of private firms, and the chemicals (which are to protect the reverse osmosis membranes from scale and
biological fouling) are part of a propietary technology, so their exact composition is not available.
The federal agency report is finished. It has not been released because it is being suppressed. Politics was mentioned as a possible rreason.
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Don Alley
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Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jerry
Current monitoring of the San Juan aquifer suggests that salt water intrusion from the gulf may never occur; instead, intrusion from deep thermal
sources is a more likely threat as the water table diminishes. Such an intrusion will result in contamination with arsenic and heavy metals and result
in the shutting down of the pumps.
who is doing the monitoring now?? |
There are different kinds of tests. One is for salt content to monitor slatwater intrusion from the sea. The other, much more expensive test ($10 per
sample) tests for heavy metals that would indicate thermal intrusion.
I'm not exactly clear on what current or future monitoring schedules may be, but I got the impression that saltwater monitoring may continue but
further funding for metals testing is not currently available.
Most of the work reported this morning came from studies funded by non government organizations, who have not committed to long term monitoring, which
should at some point (imo) be a government responsibility. As I have stated, the government's contribution to the knowledge base on the aquifer has
yet to be released.
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jerry
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thanks again for the info Don
that heavy metal test must be at the tap for$10. bucks?? ill donate a fifty for the next 5 years who do i pay? i want to see the report first
i hope thiers more and more testing and all ends well
and i mean the wells well too
jerry and judi
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k1w1
Junior Nomad
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Registered: 8-28-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rogerj1
Has anyone heard of a new technology that extracts water from the moisture in the air? |
Water Windmills?
interesting ...
http://www.abc.net.au/canberra/stories/s1837203.htm?backyard
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wilderone
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I hope every new LB villager receives a plastic bag and a cup upon completing escrow with the following instructions: "dig a place in the sand for the
cup... and place the cup under that spot,and clear away all the scorpions and other debris. A place in direct sunlight is the best. Place the cup in
the sand and by digging a small hole wait to get a drink, buy putting the cup under the bag." Would equate to "sustainable"
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jimgrms
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Posts: 664
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Location: oceanside ca
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Mood: its always good
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I wonder if loretto has considered evaporaters to make fresh water, energy cost would be high unless solar cells are used, , proably cheaper than a
desalplant and nowhere near as many chemicles to dispose of
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Don Alley
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Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jimgrms
I wonder if loretto has considered evaporaters to make fresh water, energy cost would be high unless solar cells are used, , proably cheaper than a
desalplant and nowhere near as many chemicles to dispose of |
The report by Sherwood considered other options besides reverse osmosis. I believe high energy costs were a big drawback to evaporaters.
As for what Loreto, state and federal governments, and developers have considered:
This isn't like all those proposed Baja developments over the years where the "developers" had nothing but a big parcel of cheaply bought land. The
developers coming to Loreto now have experience, they have money, they have access to large sums of credit and they have paid millions for the land. I
find it hard to believe that they are not well beyond the stage of conjecturing how to acquire water. My guess-just a guess-is that decisions have
been made and these developers know just how they are going to get water. I further assume that means a proven technology, and I believe that means
reverse osmosis desalinization of seawater, or, more likely, brackish water from wells.
It seems there are two major problems with desal. One is economic. They produce expensive water. The worse option in that regard is for individual
developments to independently develop their own "sustainable" systems. That would leave the city, and its larely lower-income population, to pay the
entire costs of their own desal system without the costs being shared by the most affluent areas in the region.
The other potential problem with desal is environmental; the waste brine could be a disaster for marine life in the confined water of the Sea of
Cortez. And the Marine Park is cited as a concern. But when one considers that the government has never taken any serious steps to protect fisheries
that have been declining for decades, that they sell permits to gillnet spawning gamefish in the Marine Park...then a simple solution to any threats
from brine to the Marine Park would be to make brine disposal part of their "management plan." These young people running the marine park are no match
for the developers.
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Don Alley
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Posts: 1997
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Location: Loreto
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Link to Loreto water study
http://www.futurosalternativosloreto.org/desalination/index....
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wilderone
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Yes, they have "a business plan which analyzes the opportunities for an early stage desalinazation plant" from Econergy; they have a letter from
FONATUR they can wave to prospective buyers; they've got a lizard round-up, some plants in boxes - all the smoke and mirrors they need to SELL UNITS.
Below is what they told BajaLife last year. Note they stated the desal plant plan will take DECADES. That's plural - more than one - at least 20
years. And in the meantime? Sucking the aquifer. And what will happen within 20 years? Either the way of Cancun and Cabo; or the way of missions.
But first and foremost - the utmost priority - is SELLING UNITS. The rest is all talk.
From Bajalife article
"Aside from installing low water usage appliances in the homes, Loreto Bay has planned the construction of a desalination plant to ensure that The
Villages of Loreto Bay and everything affiliated with it will have sufficient water in a desert region where water is far from abundant. According to
David Veniot, the current plan is to build a desalination plant that is 48 feet by 56 feet adjacent to the golf maintenance building near the highway.
At first, energy consumption by the desalination plant is expected to be about 3 Megawatts, but could require as much as 6 to 9 Megawatts after the
plant is doubled in size as planned. Expected production of the desalination plant will be 1,232,000 m3/year (325 million gallons/year) which,
according to Loreto Bay, is more that adequate to meet the needs of the development. In fact, expansion by another fifty percent is possible and would
ensure that Loreto Bay would be the net producer of water in the entire Loreto region. Loreto Bay’s research has culminated at the decision to
implement the best reverse osmosis (RO) technology available. Loreto Bay’s model was adopted from the Puerto Peñasco plan, a project that is highly
regarded for its history of salinity and biological testing. This RO model will ensure that the discharged solution is not warmer than the ocean
itself, and solids, metals, and chemicals will be prefiltered before the solution is deposited back into the Sea of Cortés. In the long term, Loreto
Bay plans to increase groundwater levels in the El Zacatel and El Tular aquifers by placing borders and gabions (rainwater flowslowing dams and
diverters) in strategic tributary locations in the hills, selectively fencing areas to prevent overgrazing, and replanting the tributary with many
layers of indigenous plants and trees. This will result in the increased percolation of water through the soil which, over time, will enrich the soil
and facilitate re-vegetation, thereby increasing the aquifer’s ability to receive and percolate increasing amounts of water. This program is projected
to take decades to complete as groundwater levels are increased to a level that can supply a significant portion of Loreto Bay’s water demand.
Loreto Bay has received expert advice from the California Coastal Commission and the “Save Our Shores” organization in collaboration with the
Monterey Bay National Marine Sanctuary to find ways to reduce the negative impact of salt deposits on marine life. As recommended by the California
Coastal Commission, sparging tubes or deep injection wells can to be used to mix excess salt with sea water underground so that by the time the salt
reaches the open ocean it will be sufficiently diluted and therefore benign to marine life. Currently, it appears as though Loreto Bay is receiving
enough expert advice on the subject to warrant that they have good intentions.
Heidi Sanborn is very concerned about Loreto Bay’s plans to build dams that will artificially fill the existing aquifers. She comments that “any time
you dam a river or creek, especially in a desert, whatever is downstream dies and whatever is getting flooded will change plant life to a more water
loving plant. Trying to artificially fill an aquifer by over watering the surface will change the fauna. Without a full review by an independent
hydrologist and plant biologist, I would not be convinced that this is an appropriate way to obtain water.” As Vice President of the Board of
Directors for GEA, Linda Kinninger is concerned about Loreto Bay’s plans to fence areas to prevent overgrazing. GEA is committed to providing a
management and protection program for the big horn sheep that graze in the mountains, but Loreto Bay fencing may serve as an obstacle to that end if
it cuts the animals off from their water supply."
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Crusoe
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Thanks Don for a very well stated and honest post. You are "spot on" on all issues. I was not aware of........But have heard..... that Catalina Is,
(one of the Channel Is. off Los Angeles )is reported to have two desal plants operating there? If this is true.....One wonders where their brine waist
is ending up??? Anyone out there Know??? Thanks ++C++
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wilderone
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A lot of information here regarding desal plants in California. Keep in mind that most of these discharge into the Pacific Ocean - not a more or less
confined Gulf - nor a "protected" marine preserve. http://www.coastal.ca.gov/desalrpt/dchap3.html
The report on the one in Florida, which was not allowed to discharge into the ocean, reports that many marine species were wiped out.
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flyfishinPam
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HI there, here's where my chemical background may help. The engineer in the meeting mentioned that the chemicals are used to de-scale the system-
that means strong acids. To descale my cappuccino machine I use citric acid which is a mild acid because its coming in contact with the source where
I'll be drinking from (and my caffeine addicted clients too) . In an industiral system strong acids would be used and they would be damn near
impossible to remove. The other chemical that would need to be used would be an agent which would remove or prevent the growth of algae and mollusks
on the system. Those would contaminate any brine wastes. Also the 50% yield of useable product (pure drinkable water) is an estimate. The SOC is
much higher in salt content than say, the Pacific Ocean, so we must understand that the yield will be less than 50%.
Another issue was that water sources would become private once desal becomes the norm and that these private companies will be able to charge what
they want. Everyone in that room had the ability to pay these future water bills but my neighbors in Miramar wouldn't have the means, so how will the
common people be able to keep enough water around for their basic needs?
The woman from Niparaja who did the persentation about the geothermal incrusion (spelline, who cares?) was quite informative, especially when she said
the other study was probably not being released for "political reasons". I have been looking all over Niparaja's website for this information and
can't find it. I also can't find it on GEA's website. I would really, really love to find this study and read it for myself. Also I will see into
my contacts for the heavy metals analyses.
OH, and I forgot and so did Don, the woman from Niparaja says the geothermal waters displacement into the aquafer will take from 5 to 10 years with
the current use. Of course with mroe demand on the system it will happen even sooner. The heavy metals we're talking about ate Aresnic which is
already 2.5 times the World Health Organization's recommendation for drinking water, and Mercury which I can't remember the current level off the top
of my head. 
[Edited on 3-16-2007 by flyfishinPam]
[Edited on 3-16-2007 by flyfishinPam]
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jerry
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pam if its a acid there using then adding a base will nuturalize it i once saw a guy take a glass of acid he added lye to it and then drank it but
im not trying it
lye is a base
acid nutrlize bases
bases nutrlize acids
jerry and judi
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