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David K
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FINDING EL CAMINO REAL and maps added...
With a big thank you to Tim Walker http://timsbaja.com for his assistance, my 'Finding El Camino Real in Baja' series (originally posted here) has it's own web page.
But, what's new and cool is the addition of the 1954 hand drawn maps of the mission trail from Loreto to El Rosario drawn by Howard Gulick while
researching for the Lower California Guidebook. These maps and Howard's notes greatly assisted Harry Crosby in his research for writing the 'Kings
Highway in Baja California', 20 years later.
Now, 50 years after Howard Gulick drew them, we can still find value in his explorations and efforts. Howard's 1962 road maps from the guidebook are
featured on my web site home page. My article 'Finding El Camino Real' is linked just below the road map link.
The ECR maps are on the last page of the article, with a quick link button to them on the first page... http://davidksbaja.com/ECR
[Edited on 3-15-2004 by David K]
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David K
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Any suggestions for more history based articles?
BAJA MISSIONS 1600's- 1800's
http://davidksbaja.com/bajamissions
EL TRIUNFO and more 1800's+
http://community-2.webtv.net/drdrip/swords
EL CAMINO REAL 1699-1920's
http://davidksbaja.com/ECR
ERLE STANLEY GARDNER 1960's
http://choralpepper.com
[Edited on 3-15-2004 by David K]
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academicanarchist
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Idea
Why not post parts of what Choral Pepper wrote, nd perhaps some of what I wrote to accompany it.
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Speedy Gonzalez
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El Camino Real
Sorry, but it's wrong to use the expression "Camino Real" for the former jesuit trails in Baja California. They were never called like this.
The "Camino Reals" are found in mainland Mexico. They first connected the capital city of New Spain with the silver producing mines (Real de Minas)
like Zacatecas, Durango and others and eventually also became trading routes for merchants and caravans.
The most famous "Camino Real" was the "Camino Real de Tierra Adentro" that connected Mexico City and Santa Fe (nowadays New Mexico).
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cristobal
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EL CAMINO REAL ...
DAVID ...
I didn't realize that the ECR trail went right through RINCON and CANDELARIA until I looked more closely at your maps. Several years ago I visited
RINCON and met MIGUEL VILLAVICENCIO.... he remembered me from years earlier from my visits to BAHIA TORTUGAS.( I did not remember him .... apparently
people talk about the GRINGO on the fast QUAD .... which he remembered). I also stopped and spent the night at CANDELARIA before CHRISTMAS '02 with
BETO VILLAVICENCIO (cousins with miguel) and his family. I understand more now ...why his home was built with 30' ceilings. It was built as a stopping
point and not as a residence is built today. Between the two ranchos I saw no sign of the old trail. The new BULLDOZERS can tear up and cover up a
trail very quickly.
MANUAL VILLAVICENCIO of LAS HIGUERAS had a road cut from rancho SANTA ROSA (between CANDELARIA and RINCON)up to his rancho several years ago. The new
road saved him 20 minutes of road time each way to town. Since he drives a SUBURBAN .... that is real savings to him.
The TRAIL is out there ... you just have to look very close.
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Speedy Gonzalez
Sorry, but it's wrong to use the expression "Camino Real" for the former jesuit trails in Baja California. They were never called like this.
The "Camino Reals" are found in mainland Mexico. They first connected the capital city of New Spain with the silver producing mines (Real de Minas)
like Zacatecas, Durango and others and eventually also became trading routes for merchants and caravans.
The most famous "Camino Real" was the "Camino Real de Tierra Adentro" that connected Mexico City and Santa Fe (nowadays New Mexico).
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Hi Speedy,
It is my understanding that ALL main trails in New Spain used to expand civilization and transport revenues (taxes) back to the king were called
'Camino Real' (Royal Road/ King's Highway).
In California (Baja y Alta), the trail(s) connecting the missions are known as Camino Real. However, no evidence is known to exist that the Jesuits
ever used the full name, rather they simply called it 'The Road'.*
* Jesuits did call their trail El Camino Real per documents compiled my Miguel Venegas in 1739.
After the Jesuits were removed from New Spain (in 1768), the Franciscans and later the Dominicans did call the earlier built Jesuit roads, as well as
the roads built after 1768, 'El Camino Real'. Perhaps this was out of respect to the king and to not propagate any ideas that were applied to the
Jesuits which lead to their banishment.
I think I will dig into my copy of Antigua California and see if there was any Jesuit use of the term before the Franciscans... (post note: Harry
Crosby does refer to the Jesuit trails as Camino Real, in Antigua California)
Thanks for your input... and welcome to Baja Nomad!
[Edited on 5-20-2004 by David K]
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Speedy Gonzalez
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El Camino Real
Hello David K
Thanks for welcoming me to Baja Nomad and your comments regarding the use of the term "El Camino Real".
As you mention one of the purposes of a "Camino Real" was to transport revenues back to the king. But at the time of the missionaries there were no
real revenues to be brought back to the king or rather the vice king. (There were no kings in New Spain.)
There were no mines or any other sources of revenue in Baja California during the missionary period.
And transport to mainland New Spain from Baja California was done by ship (to Ahome and other ports) and not by land. Therefore the use of the term
"Camino Real" for trails in Baja California (especially in the southern part) doesn't make any sense to me.
Please let me know your historical sources if you can find the term "Camino Real" in the Jesuit, Franciscan or Dominic period of Baja California. It
would be interesting to find out when and why people started to call the trails "Camino Real".
Looking forward to your comments!
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David K
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Sure, the Jesuits may have only called their roads 'El Camino', but after 1768 all the connecting trails were called Camino Real (by the Franciscans
and Dominicans) pg. 15, The King's Highway in Baja California by Harry Crosby c1974. On page 4, Harry says: "Use of the term 'El Camino Real' is
consistant in the sense that it refers to a road which was built by mission labor and served to communicate each mission with its neighbors, uniting
the whole group into an unbroken chain."
There was active mining during the Jesuit period at Real de Santa Ana. Silver was discovered there in 1720. The mission that started as 'Ensenada de
las Palmas' (at Los Barriles) and ended at Santiago, was first moved to Santa Ana. The Jesuit road between Santa Ana and La Paz was called Camino Real
per Crosby.
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Speedy Gonzalez
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El Camino Real
Hi David
Thanks for your reply.
Maybe Harry Crosby used the term "Camino Real" for simple trails. But is there any historical evidence that this term was used by Franciscans and
Dominicans?
Also the title "The King's Highway in Baja California" seems very inapropriate to me. Even nowadays we do not have a real highway through the
peninsula... So why compare trails with highways.
On mainland New Spain there were indeed roads that deserved to be compared with highways. Those were the "Camino Real".
If you find any sources that dates back to the Franciscan or Dominican period refering to "El Camino Real", please let me know. Thanks and have a
sunny day!
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David K
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Glad you are interested in the history of (Baja) California! So many people just think of it as a place for recreation and game fishing, not so much
for education and the whole experience of the land (not just the sea shore).
I have cited when and why the Franciscans (and later the Dominicans) began using the full name 'El Camino Real' in my post, above. I agree with you
that the Jesuits (who had Baja pretty much to themselves) didn't credit the king with their road constrution. But, the Franciscans did... even to the
Jesuit built sections. So, the name remains. Here in San Diego county, the route of Junipero Serra is mostly a 4-6 lane paved street called El Camino
Real!
The English term 'highway' does not mean only a paved main road for automobiles... Harry used the term "King's Highway" to apply to the 'main route'
used by Junipero Serra in his journey from Loreto to Alta California over 230 years ago to expand the king's territory and head off the Russians and
English. It was never more than a foot and mule trail.
My son and I hiked some of it, near Gonzaga Bay last November and Don Jorge (with an earlier start) continued on to Mision Santa Maria, 2 weeks later:
http://vivabaja.com/1103/page2.html
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wilderone
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From "Journey of the Flame" - (not a historical publication, per se, but published in 1933, purportedly a true account):
"Now that I am old, they call 'road' that which is for wagons; but when I was a boy, 'El Camino del Rey' [fn.] was for a King where he should be - on
the back of a serviceable mule. While we had, of course, two-wheeled ox carts with solid wheels, to bring in our sugar cane, we respected mules too
much to use them in wagons ...." fn: "El Camino del Rey: the King's Highway, now changed in California to Camino Real, in deference to the Monroe
Doctrine."
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Speedy Gonzalez
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EL CAMINO REAL
Hola otra vez David K!
Sorry, I keep on insisting... 
We do agree that one of the main purposes of a CAMINO REAL was to transport revenues back to the viceroy. We also agree that the term CAMINO REAL was
not used by the Jesuits that remained on the peninsula until 1768.
However, by that time we already had various CAMINOS REALES on mainland M?xico that had existed for over 200 years. The term CAMINO REAL started to be
used between 1540 and 1550 after discovering silver in places like Zacatecas, Durango, Guanajuato etc. Those cities called REALES DE MINAS were
connected by CAMINOS REALES. Due to the "traffic" on those CAMINOS REALES they could well be compared somehow with the highways of nowadays.
From our (Mexican) point of view, the trails in Baja California at no time deserved to be called CAMINOS REALES. And it's quite unlikely that you will
find any mention of CAMINO REALES in Baja California in our history books.
But let's go back to the historical facts...: So we are in 1768 with the Jesuits. The term CAMINO REAL does not exist yet in Baja California. Well,
there are exactly 42 years left until the beginning of the independence movement and therefore also to the end of a term like CAMINO REAL in the real
sense of the word.
I doubt that there is any historical evidence of the term beeing used in that short period between 1768 and 1810. But even if we could find the term
CAMINO REAL in historical sources dating back to that time, it is still a exageration to speak about CAMINOS REALES in Baja California.
CAMINO REALES were important trading routes with regular traffic and a tradition that existed nearly during the whole colonial period. There were no
such roads in Baja California. The only road or trail on the peninsula that was maybe used for a short period like a real CAMINO REAL would be the one
between San Antonio and La Paz. But I doubt that you will find the use of the term CAMINO REAL in historical sources that date back to that time.
I know that there is a large street in San Diego county called EL CAMINO REAL. You find a lot of expressions like that in Northern Mexico and
especially in the former Spanish possessions in the USA that don't really match with the historical past. But it is a way of (tourism) marketing, a
way of "making history" and a way of giving a identity to the people.
And therefore with all my respect for Harry Crosby's work, but if he uses the term CAMINO REAL I think it is rather based on his personal
interpretation than on real historic facts.
[Edited on 5-11-2004 by Speedy Gonzalez]
[Edited on 5-11-2004 by Speedy Gonzalez]
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bajalera
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Somewhere or other, I once read that the original purpose of establishing a "royal road" was that it was open to all travelers--no one was allowed to
charge a toll for its use. Maybe this meant "no one except the king"?
David K, you certainly contribute a lot of interesting stuff to this board!
bajalera
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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David K
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Thank you Bajalera! I love the California peninsula and all of its history, too. Unkike here in Alta California, one can still see most of the
historical sites in Baja.
Speedy, it is important to you that the name El Camino Real only applies to tax revenue routes in mainland Mexico, I know. I am not sure why you don't
think any revenues came out of Baja California, but silver, gold and pearls was extracted during mission times...
None the less, the main connecting mission trails in Baja are now (if not before) known as routes of El Camino Real.
Perhaps if you could give some evidence of what the trail was called (if not 'Camino Real'), that would be enlightening. I did site documentation that
after 1768 all the main mission connecting trails were called El Camino Real. 99 years ago in 1905, Arthur North called the main Baja trail El Camino
Real, in his book 'Camp and Camino in Lower California'.
I think you will find it difficult to change the name of the old trail after so many years 100-230 of its use.
Please continue to inject and post Mexican and Baja Calif. history and discussions!!!
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academicanarchist
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Baja History
I agree with David that Baja history is fascinating. It has captivated me for more years than I would like to remember. The National Park Service has
designated a number of trails historic trails, including sections of what they call the El Camino Real, for example through Texas. That is quite
different from the El Camino Real bells along certain California hiways, such as 101. I personally have not given much attention to whether or not a
trail was called el camino real in historic times. What is more important is if a trail served for communications, the movement of goods, etc.
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Speedy Gonzalez
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El Camino Real
Hello again
Sorry for beeing that insisting... 
| Quote: |
Originally posted by David K
None the less, the main connecting mission trails in Baja are now (if not before) known as routes of El Camino Real.
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Maybe in the US but not in Mexico. We do not generally talk about a CAMINO REAL for any trail or camino rural. Otherwise there would have been
thousands of CAMINOS REALES in mainland Mexico during the colonial period.
When we refer to the trails in Baja California we would rather use a term like "Camino de los Misioneros".
| Quote: |
Originally posted by David K
Perhaps if you could give some evidence of what the trail was called (if not 'Camino Real'), that would be enlightening.
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I do not know about any names for those trails. I don't think that those simple trails had any name at all. They probably just called them "trail to
..." or "... trail" as you would name a small mountain trail somewhere in the US or as trails are still named in Mexico.
| Quote: |
Originally posted by David K
I did site documentation that after 1768 all the main mission connecting trails were called El Camino Real. 99 years ago in 1905, Arthur North called
the main Baja trail El Camino Real, in his book 'Camp and Camino in Lower California'.
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Writers like Arthur North and Harry Crosby have contributed a lot for the general interest of Baja California and therefore deserve my respect. I can
however not take them as a source for historic facts for the colonial period as long as they do not refer to an essay, letter or book from a person
that lived at that time.
I am aware that people in the US and maybe even in the border towns of Mexico (where there wasn't as much "real" Spanish colonial history as in the
center of the country) will go on using the name CAMINO REAL.
But fact is that with using the term CAMINO REAL you give it much more importance than it really had.
To name the connection trails between all the missions from Alta and Baja California CAMINO REAL is also misleading. It makes you believe that there
was a regular communication between those missions at all time. But the Franciscans and Dominicans for strategically reasons mainly worked in the
Northern part and didn't care much for the southern missions.
| Quote: |
Originally posted by academicanarchist
The National Park Service has designated a number of trails historic trails, including sections of what they call the El Camino Real, for example
through Texas.
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This is another story.... EL CAMINO REAL DE LOS TEJAS really existed as such as a main connection between the territories of Coahuila and Tejas
(Texas). This term was used at that period, therefore can really be considered a CAMINO REAL.
[Edited on 5-15-2004 by Speedy Gonzalez]
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David K
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There was regular communication between the missions on the Camino Real. Even when Junipero Serra was walking north to San Diego (from Loreto) he
recieved communications from other missions. In 'The Call to California' c1968, pg.39: At the abandoned mission site of Calamajue a mail courier going
from Santa Maria to San Borja passed a little after midday.
Another thought on why this really was a 'Royal Road' is the fact that a goal of Spain in establishing a chain of missions was to beat the Russians
and the English in establishing control over California. The missions were the first step in colonization as the lands were inhabited by 'savages' the
padres seeked to Christianize. So, in securing territory for the king, the missions and the road were for royal needs.
The evidence shows the mission trail from Loreto to Alta California was indeed a Camino Real as were likely other connecting trails between the
missions to the south.
I have to agree with Harry Crosby, Howard Gulick, Arthur North, and Fr. Junipero Serra who is quoted on pg.31 of 'The Call to California': "... and
also on our return journey along the King's highway back to Mexico..." This was written at Mision Santa Gertrudis, in what was then known as
California, offshore from Mexico.
Of interest, a mile or two west of Santa Gertrudis is a sign with 'El Camino Real' printed on it, pointing to the trail where it climbs a rocky hill,
heading for San Borja.
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Eli
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Sure have enjoyed reading everyone?s opinion in regard to this thread. As I am not a historian, (about now, I can visualize David K. nodding his head
in confirmation of this), jejeje, ay yes, to say the least, this forum is the last place I ever expected to find myself. Still, my average person
point of view, that the Camino Real existed in both Alta and Baja California is common thought, not just by gringos but locals also, and as such, had
to come from somewhere even if it is in error. So, in order to confirm that this was not just some gringo misconception, I took this discussion to a
civil engineer born and raised here in Buena Vista. I found his point of view on the subject interesting; His input being, his experience and
knowledge is only of the local area, i.e., La Paz and south. His memory spans over 40 years, so his opinion was formed before the time of the gringo
invasion, so it is not influenced by an outside perspective persay. Anyway, he gave several examples of roads and trails that he recalls all during
his lifetime as always being referred to as Camino Real. He also remembers from Old topographic maps, local properties being named as bordering on ?El
Camino Real? in their legal description. He is a busy man, so although he has promised to look for these maps, I am not going to pursue this with him
further. As certainly, once one?s mind is set, on either side of a debate, it is not likely going to get changed, no matter how many examples are
given.
Meanwhile, Speedy G, My friend, the engineer, did ask me to ask you if perhaps you might not be from Mexico City?
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academicanarchist
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El Camino Real
Having given some thought to this, I would have to say that during the Jesuit period it would not have been known as El Camino Real, since the Jesuits
colonized the Peninsula, with the King's approval of course. More importantly, the Jesuits controlled what passed as the government in the Peninsula.
Following the Jesuit expulsion, things changed. The Crown asserted its authority with no limitations. More importantly, and this is something that our
friend Speedy Gonzalez needs to keep in mind, Jose de Galvez spent time in the Peninsula reorganizing the missions and organizing the colonization of
Alta California. It is important to remember that Galvez was the King's man in Mexico, given extensive powers independent of the Viceroy to implement
reforms as he saw fit. In a sense he was the true alter ego of the King, and enjoyed the King's full confidence. The trail blazed to Alta California
and running through the Peninsula would have been the El Camino Real, since it was blazed under orders from Galvez.
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David K
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More...
Thanks Eli, very interesting!
I took the liberty to email Harry Crosby today and he confirms the term 'El Camino Real' was used on documents in Spain, New Spain (Mexico), and Baja
California as early as 1705!
I did learn that in the case of California, El Camino Real was not built for tax collection the way it was in mainland Mexico (nobody there yet to
collect taxes from). The purpose was to expand the King's territory and serve as a link for communication between the missions.
In the Winter 1977 Journal of San Diego History, Harry has an excellent article on the trail with detailed maps. Harry was going to fax me the pages
with the article, but I already have it (thanks to Neal Johns)!
The term 'Camino Real' had its origin in medieval Spain. Any main road built with Royal authority since then was called El Camino Real or "the King's
Highway". This was in Spain and in Spain's colonies.
The Jesuits were in power in California, but were there by permission of the king... the roads they built after establishing Loreto, were the king's
roads.
Thank you Speedy for inspiring the research so we could confirm this. Many Camino Reals were built in Mexico!
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