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M
Nomad
Posts: 392
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: Laguna Niguel, CA.
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Mood: looking for joy...
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I saw that PBS show also....
I agree, what a total load of crap! Old Huel is another Garrison Keillor wannabe. NOT!
JR, I was SO distressed to see your photos (excellent as usual) of those vandalised rock art. Such a shame that a peninsula full of wonderfull people
are so damn careless about their own historical culture and environmental care. Sigh... Before I get blasted for being a generalizing tree hugger, yes
not ALL Baja Mexicans are like that, my point is, those that are there doing the damage are too much. Thanks all for the interesting info. Hugs, M
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academicanarchist
Senior Nomad
Posts: 978
Registered: 9-7-2003
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Datura Cult
Datura cult was well established among the Chumash when the Spanish arrived after 1769. I would guess that somewhere around 1500-1760 as the age for
the Catavina site.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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"The word" from Dr. Eric Ritter
I just got off the phone with Dr. Ritter. He says that the whole subject of the age of pictographs in Baja CA has been turned topsy-turvy due to a new
technique that is able to age the pigments in the paint used to produce the pictoglyphs. The ages they are coming up with on the murals north of San
Ignacio, and west of Mulege, are considerably older than previously thought-----like in the neighborhood of 7000 years old. The Catavina pictographs
have not yet been dated using these new techniques. Traditionally, Eric has dated the Catavina sites at about 1000 years old, or slightly older, based
on artifact identification in the immediate area. He admits that this is very speculative, at best, and totally in error at worst. He has heard the
rumors of association with the Chumash culture to the north in Alta California, but he does not buy into this theory, at all. In fact he was rather
irritated at the idea. So, the answer to your original question is a big question mark. It is generally thought that Dr. Ritter is an authority on
Baja Archaeology, and he has worked there for 30 years plus. Barry
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bajalera
Super Nomad
Posts: 1875
Registered: 10-15-2003
Location: Santa Maria CA
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Way to go, Barry! You've provided us with dating info based on fact rather than fiction. But I'd revise that description of Dr. Ritter--he's generally
considered not just as "an" authority on Baja archaeology, but as THE authority. You're lucky to have him as a friend.
AA--I expect a historian to have better sense than to guess at dates that archaeologists aren't willing to take a stand on.
bajalera
[Edited on 5-18-2004 by bajalera]
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4863
Registered: 2-2-2003
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The dates
Some "professional" evaluation placed my collection between 4,000 and 10,000 years old depending on which pieces. They originated from three
different tribes including the Yaqui from the mainland.
The funny part is, none of those guys were tall enough to paint the ceilings of some of the caves I have seen.
Unless of course, there were those before them who were. This is common belief amongst the locals that actually live in these areas.
And since nobody actually knows their true origin or dates/time period, it is quite interesting to hear the locals beliefs and foreigners ideas on
when and who.
From what I have observed including reading some of the scientific studies, there is a lot more to these paintings than we yet know and they are
probably a lot older than we think.
And for M, those pictures aren't that good as that is not vandalism. In the area of those caves, there are a number of them with scratchings rather
than paintings. I posted some pictures in the historic section of Nomads of another cave with some similar markings. There are a lot of them as well
as caves with human bones, metates, peyote dolls, etc. although, they are not very easy to get to and are only known by the locals.
Trips to some of these caves can now be arranged if anyone is interested in seeing some non touristy history. Again, it is a lot of work and a long
way to get to them but prior to me, no white guys have visited them and they are now protected as the locals all have their credentials through
Profepa. Victory!
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
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Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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What about Harry Crosby?
Doc says that Harry is "the" authority, but I know what you mean, and yes, I treasure Eric's friendship-----I used to work with him in the southern
deserts, many years ago, and later in N. CA.. First met him in about l974, in El Centro, CA-----very interesting guy, and down to earth. He wants to
start Archy research in the Bahia San Luis Gonzaga area, next, in JULY!!!!! Mucho Caliente!!!! (-: Barry
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KurtG
Super Nomad
Posts: 1201
Registered: 1-27-2004
Location: California Central Coast
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Mood: Press On Regardless!!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajalera
KurtG - Okay, maybe I'm being too picky. But I just find it difficult to consider "5000-7500 years old" to be a precise date. And while I don't know
zip about the qualifications of the Australian researchers, I do know something about the National Geographic Society: this is not a scholarly journal
but a commercial magazine that's focused on acquiring a wide circulation, and it has published some pretty scuzzy material on Baja California in the
past.
bajalera [/quote
Since The Geographic Society is described as a "partial sponser' of this project I have trouble seeing a commercial interest on their part. As to the
5-7500 years, that was not a general estimate but the range of dating they found at least as I read the article. As was mentioned by another poster
the new methods of dating the pigments are said to be more accurate. I am not a scientist, just someone who has visited a number of painting sites
and thus has an ongoing interest. Also regarding the Geographic, remember that in the Dec 89 issue they published Crosby's article on the people of
the Sierra San Francisco which was outstanding. I haven't seen any of their "scuzzy" stuff on Baja, can you direct me to it? |
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bajalera
Super Nomad
Posts: 1875
Registered: 10-15-2003
Location: Santa Maria CA
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Barry - Harry isn't an archaeologist. I consider him to be THE authority on Baja history. He's as comfortable on horseback as he is in the archives,
and writes well too--a really unusual combination.
bajalera.
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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bajalera
Super Nomad
Posts: 1875
Registered: 10-15-2003
Location: Santa Maria CA
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Response to Kurt
For the record, you're the one who wondered what Australian and National Geographic researchers would have to say about my statement that "as yet
there really isn't a valid method of assigning dates to rock art" (which you cited only part of). I don't know what those people would say, but Eric
Ritter didn't disagree--eventually, a time-tested method of assessing pigments will be developed.
To me, National Geographic is an interesting magazine that has great pictures, but I don't view it as a reliable source of historical and
anthropological information. It published a notably scuzzy piece about travel on the old road while I was living in La Paz, which would have been some
time between 1963 and '68. (Or perhaps a bit earlier--I can't recall the exact date.) And that recent article on "Pericu" skulls struck me as being
pretty naive.
You say it has also run a story by Harry Crosby, which I assume would be very well done. So what's your point here?
The only point I can see is that Geographic has published articles on Baja that aren't worth reading, as well as others that are.
bajalera
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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academicanarchist
Senior Nomad
Posts: 978
Registered: 9-7-2003
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Questions for Dr. Ritter
If Barry can get Dr. Ritter on the phone again, there are several questions I would appreciate his clarifying:
1. If he believes that datura was involved in the creation of the geometric designs at Catavina? And if the Catavina site dates to similar periods as
sites in other parts of the larger Southwestern region?
2. If the shamanic figures north of San Ignacio date to about the same time as shamanic figures from other areas, such as the Big Bend Region of Texas
and Del Rio Texas?
3. Citations on recent journal articles on the age of sites such as Catavina or in surrounding regions such as California, Sonora, Texas, or New
Mexico?
Thanks.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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Questions from AA
AA----I would be happy to take these questions over to Dr. Ritter, but he is a working Archaeologist and I hesitate to impose on him by another phone
call. I would suggest that you two e-mail each other, if Dr. Ritter chooses to do that. Along those lines, I would need your e-mail address. I can be
e-mailed at: barrynmeredy@charter.net
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academicanarchist
Senior Nomad
Posts: 978
Registered: 9-7-2003
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OK
No problema. I have found that scholars often are happy to answer questions from the gentle public.
[Edited on 5-19-2004 by academicanarchist]
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KurtG
Super Nomad
Posts: 1201
Registered: 1-27-2004
Location: California Central Coast
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Mood: Press On Regardless!!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajalera
For the record, you're the one who wondered what Australian and National Geographic researchers would have to say about my statement that "as yet
there really isn't a valid method of assigning dates to rock art" (which you cited only part of). I don't know what those people would say, but Eric
Ritter didn't disagree--eventually, a time-tested method of assessing pigments will be developed.
To me, National Geographic is an interesting magazine that has great pictures, but I don't view it as a reliable source of historical and
anthropological information. It published a notably scuzzy piece about travel on the old road while I was living in La Paz, which would have been some
time between 1963 and '68. (Or perhaps a bit earlier--I can't recall the exact date.) And that recent article on "Pericu" skulls struck me as being
pretty naive.
You say it has also run a story by Harry Crosby, which I assume would be very well done. So what's your point here?
The only point I can see is that Geographic has published articles on Baja that aren't worth reading, as well as others that are.
bajalera |
I was really making two points, first in regard to your original post where you said there was no reliable way to date the paintings I simply posted a
link that pointed out that scientists from a reputable university felt they could date these things. I have no position on the dating since I don't
have the scientific background to do so. Secondly, you stated that Geographic had published some "scuzzy" things about Baja and I pointed out one
very good article and asked for directions to read the "scuzzy" ones. Again here you say they have published articles on Baja "not worth reading" and
I'm simply asking for issue dates so I can decide for myself. Don't read anything else into my words, I'm just looking for good info. What issue was
the "Pericu" skull article?
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
Posts: 2962
Registered: 8-31-2003
Location: Sunset Beach
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Mood: Just dancing through life
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JR
Damn! You keep this up with the pictures and exploring and building bamboo stuff and National Geographic will 'make' you GO TO WORK for them.
Enjoy your stuff and your heart more each time you post. Have you noticed that the further away from civilization you have gone the more calm and
introspective you have become?
Natalie Ann, I normally dislike it when someone attempts to push a post in a different direction BUT I gotta tell you you are the first person that
has quoted Rumi anywhere that I know of. Love the guy so please forgive me in this instance.
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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bajalera
Super Nomad
Posts: 1875
Registered: 10-15-2003
Location: Santa Maria CA
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It's certainly possible that what I viewed as "scuzzy" was enjoyed by some Geographic readers as a great adventure story. I read it soon after driving
a Power Wagon down the old carretera to La Paz on a trip that took two months because we tarried here and there. I no longer remember exactly what
irritated me, but think it was that ranches and geographic features were misnamed.
As nearly as I can recall, the Pericu piece ran in September or October of 2003. I found it by searching for Pericu (which also brought up--to my
surprise--the Deja Vu Pericu I wrote for the Nomad board). The Geographic article struck me as being another Baja-was-settled-by-Micronesians thing,
which stressed sensational aspects and ignored some important research that has been done on this subject.
bajalera
[Edited on 5-19-2004 by bajalera]
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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academicanarchist
Senior Nomad
Posts: 978
Registered: 9-7-2003
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Dr. Ritter's response to my questions
I will briefly and off the top of my head answer your inquiries: First,
there are pictographs at Catavina, not petroglyphs. At least one appears
to be vulva-like, perhaps fertility related. There is nothing to confirm
Datura use at this site---these could be entoptic images
(trans-state-shamanic) that could come from tobacco-induced altered states
just as easily as Datura, or from some other cause. These is no solid
dating of these pictographs or any other Northern Abstract pictographs.
Most have thought they date to the last 2000 years based on nearby
archaeology but this is highly hypothetical. The Great Mural art is being
dated as we correspond by Alan Watchmann and Luz Gutierrez---dates run from
7000 to last 500 years. Still very provisional. They have several
articles out in English and Spanish publications (Arqueologia; Nature?).
If these dates prove correct they are even earlier--in part--than the Pecos
art. Associated archaeology (cf. Hyland's thesis) in the Great Mural
region does not agree wholly with the dates obtained. Possible
contamination factors must be determined. Watchmann et al. have taken
samples from several Northern Abstract sites (Montevideo for
instance)--don't know the results but this site has a Great Mural
anthropomorph which may suggest correspondence of some of the art with the
dates from the Sierra de San Francisco/Sierra Guadalupe--very tenuous. I
see no direct connection between much of the central Baja California rock
art and elsewhere in the Southwest. These are some anomalies for
sure---scratched stuff all over the west; plumed serpent in one shelter
near Santa Marta; possible shamanic/trans-state traditions and so on. Much
to work out as yet.
At San Fernando Velicata we spent part of one day salvaging some of the
burials that were exposed by erosion and looters. These are as yet only
partially studied (Eldon Molto of Lakehead University). He did find a case
of bejel apparently. At one time I had a pollen sample run from one of the
adobe bricks---no invasive weeds found in the sample--not much pollen
preservation in any case.
Go the the American Rock Art Research Association web site and see if there
is more of interest---much on rock art dating in many journals plus other
items of note. Hope this helps some. What is the bulletin board address?
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bajalera
Super Nomad
Posts: 1875
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Location: Santa Maria CA
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Thanks, Robert, for making that informative response available to us.
bajalera
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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bajalera
Super Nomad
Posts: 1875
Registered: 10-15-2003
Location: Santa Maria CA
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And to you, too, Barry and Dr. R. (I would have added this thank-you to my previous post, but the EDIT feature has gone missing from it.)
Lera
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thebajarunner
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3687
Registered: 9-8-2003
Location: Arizona....."Free at last from crumbling Cali
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Mood: muy amable
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How many years??
Baja Vida and I are having lunch today at our monthly Salvation Army board meeting.
He leans over and whispers," Sure glad I asked the question about the cave painting, now we know, for sure, that they are somewhere between 100 years
old and 2 billion years old."
(I think he was commenting slightly tongue in cheek, but with B.V. you never know)
Baja Arriba!!
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bajalera
Super Nomad
Posts: 1875
Registered: 10-15-2003
Location: Santa Maria CA
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That's a good one, Runner!
bajalera
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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