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Author: Subject: Turtle bust
bajaguy
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[*] posted on 4-13-2009 at 12:46 PM


I smell a RAT



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tehag
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[*] posted on 4-13-2009 at 01:43 PM
Turtle bust


Asked at the CONAPESCA office this morning, and Playa Buenaventura is where the seizure took place. The woman owner and a cook are in federal custody in Nopoló. Her husband says the turtle wasn't for sale, but the feds believe otherwise. If there's more to the story, that doesn't seem to be influencing the case yet. Nothing on SudCal's website yet.
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[*] posted on 4-13-2009 at 03:50 PM


it doesn't matter if the turtle meat was for sale or not... busted!

playa buenaventura isn't that owned by that mano negro guy?




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Diver
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[*] posted on 4-13-2009 at 10:06 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Baja&Back
FYI: The guy posting at Bajaforums as "San Buenaventura" is Munoz himself, the person who is trying to steal miles of beachfront in Concepcion by invading and fencing it. He has had a running battle with Mark & Olivia for years. I wouldn't be surprised if he planted the turtle evidence on them, considering his black reputation.
He also sent emails out to baja caravan companies, including us, that we have to pay HIM next year to stay on Bahia Concepcion beaches! I will post his email on this forum when I have replied.
Look for this snake lawyer to show up on Nomads forum soon ...
:fire:


The same post was entered here by ramuma53.
Maybe the same guy ?
This is way too twisted for me to understand. :o
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Gadget
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[*] posted on 4-14-2009 at 02:54 PM


Myself and some of the Mocos crew have been invited for "Cahuama" ???sp twice, in '04 and '06 after the Baja Mil.( I won't say where).
The first time it was fantastic and I ate so much stew I thought I would burst. One of the most amazing flavors that any of us have ever had. Our hosts were so delighted to share the experience with us, it was just one of those magical nights in Baja you will never forget.:tumble::tumble::tumble:
When we were invited again, we could all hardly wait and we talked it all up to other friends and family.
It was horrible!!!!:barf::barf:
Don't know what happened, the associated ingredients were way different, there was too much of the meat in the stew and it tasted like it had been scooped out of the outhouse out back.
One of our family members nearly hurled after just one bite and was green for the rest of the evening.:?:
That was actually kinda funny.
Guess it's all in the prep and the cook.
I've checked it off my list of things to do for the future now.




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[*] posted on 4-14-2009 at 04:32 PM


shari...olivia and marcus have always been really nice to us when we visited...just too bad..the whole thing...now...i'm bringing down my buddies in late may/early june...would it be worth it to bring them your way for a few days for fishing?...anything going on then?...lemme know; we're ready!



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ramuma53
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[*] posted on 4-14-2009 at 04:34 PM


My friends, it is clear that Olivia and Mark were selling and cooking for sale Turtle, that at this time is a protected specie in extintion danger, the fact that it is good or bad to eat is not on debate or the fact, it also looks like the fact that they killed the turtles and cooked them is not argued by Mark, Olivia's husband; the fact is that at this time, it is a Federal ofense to do that and she was caught in the act, a fact that not even they denie; who blew the wistle is of no importance because if I knew I would have done it myself, but the same Conapesca authorities busted several places that day, looks like it was an area action, we know that they searched the Hotel Buenaventura too, but found nothing illegal, but in the Restaurant El Zargazo owned by Olivia and Mark, they found the big pot of stew cooking, full of people waiting for it and the heads of the poor turtles in the trash can; also she was trying to go out of it, by saying that she is a MAFIA member or a Mafia Member relative; are those people who some people argue are good guys, then my notion of a good guy is out of place; Is Mexico a lawfull place or not, are we going to protect the endangered species or not, are we against the Mafia or not.
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[*] posted on 4-14-2009 at 05:02 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
My friends, it is clear that Olivia and Mark were selling and cooking for sale Turtle, that at this time is a protected specie in extintion danger, the fact that it is good or bad to eat is not on debate or the fact, it also looks like the fact that they killed the turtles and cooked them is not argued by Mark, Olivia's husband; the fact is that at this time, it is a Federal ofense to do that and she was caught in the act, a fact that not even they denie; who blew the wistle is of no importance because if I knew I would have done it myself, but the same Conapesca authorities busted several places that day, looks like it was an area action, we know that they searched the Hotel Buenaventura too, but found nothing illegal, but in the Restaurant El Zargazo owned by Olivia and Mark, they found the big pot of stew cooking, full of people waiting for it and the heads of the poor turtles in the trash can; also she was trying to go out of it, by saying that she is a MAFIA member or a Mafia Member relative; are those people who some people argue are good guys, then my notion of a good guy is out of place; Is Mexico a lawfull place or not, are we going to protect the endangered species or not, are we against the Mafia or not.


I think it wouldn't be hard to find offenders for this in any town in Baja. It is part of their tradition, like Shari said, that won't be going away any time soon regardless of the laws against it.

Gringo's are put in an interesting culture clash on this issue in my opinion.

To those that think it doesn't taste good your wrong! I can still remember the turtle steak I ate in San Felipe in 1968, it was like a tender piece of veal. Only had once again, farmed raised in Grand Cayman, in a stew and it was also very good.

Ken
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ramuma53
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[*] posted on 4-14-2009 at 05:50 PM


As you said, it may have been a tradition, but only a culinary one; also the Aztecas had a tradition to kill people and that doesen't mean you can do it now; the real thing is that the turtles were put under protection for a reason, people were eating them to extintion and now it is a federal felony worst than killing a human, at least if you kill a human, you can argue that you were deffending yourself, but that is hard to argue against a Turtle; also I dare you to kill a Gray wale and then argue it is an Skimo Tradition, lets see if you manage to stay out of jail in any part of America.
On your line of tought, then why forbid cocaine consumption, that won't be going away soon either, or for that matter of fact any illegal drug consumption or even Discrimination against blacks or Mexicans, after all it was a Kukus Klan tradition or not.
The fact my friend, regardless of if it was a good food, it was a tradition or anything, is that it is Illegal all over the world now, for a very good reason, they are in extintion danger and as a consequence it is illegal to even look at them in a bad way; traditions change and have to be forgoten all the time and this is one we all should enforce, if we want our grandchildren to see a live turtle swiming in the sea, or are you palnning on telling yours that there are no more turtles because we were unable to change a culinary tradition.
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[*] posted on 4-14-2009 at 07:29 PM
I club Baby Seals when not in Baja


Ramumba,

Where in my post did you get that I support the killing of turtles? In fact I found your passion on the subject quite appropriate, until you made the leap that I support their killing along with the killing of whales.

Lets clarify what I did say. My point is that in Mexico a tradition exists, by the way one I don't condon, but is there just the same. A "culinary" tradition that is more widespread that you may want to believe. Awhile back there was a story here about a Governor partaking of Turtle in some celebration. Slowing I think the people of Baja are coming to grips with the reality of the health of the species. It is a complicated issue which isn't a simple Black and White one.

As a Gringo in their country I believe we have to waltz around some of these old traditions that we don't agree with, ie c-ck fights, bullfights, and dog fights. That is why I used the term Culture Clash. I'm sorry if you don't appreciate the nuiance of the situation.

As a matter of fact my friend a while back while motorcyle touring through the Mohave desert I passed a tortoise crossing the road, came to a stop, turned around and found him still on the pavement and carried him across the road.

Ken
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[*] posted on 4-14-2009 at 07:38 PM


Anyone have any actual facts or proof? I smell a rat too.
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[*] posted on 4-14-2009 at 07:41 PM
ramuma53


Can find profile ...can't find web site ????
http://www.hotelsanbuenaventura.com:?::?::?::?::?::?:




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[*] posted on 4-14-2009 at 07:52 PM


Wow ken, I club them too....

Thanks for dropping that tortoise off at our campsite across the road, you should have stayed for dinner, it tasted like chicken:lol:...

Me thinks that "ramu" is looking to ramu to Olivia and Marco....dt




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[*] posted on 4-14-2009 at 09:25 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by roundtuit
Can find profile ...can't find web site ????
http://www.hotelsanbuenaventura.com:?::?::?::?::?::?:


Try this:

http://www.munoz-industries.com/buenaventura.html


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Wait a sec, there is sumpin fishy goings on hear!:wow:




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[*] posted on 4-14-2009 at 09:52 PM


Woah.... wild allegations from Ramu...Mafia? Sounds insane.. I don't know the details..and I understand the cultural history issues are complicated. What is SIMPLE is the Real Estate war going on...that is the framing of the whole issue to paint one side badly. In this context I challenge Ramu to actually come up with a convincing set of proofs...rather than internet innuendo.

There may be no clear right/wrong...but I'll bet there is a clear balance of evidence in favor od one side or another..
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ramuma53
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[*] posted on 4-15-2009 at 12:50 AM


Well we are in Internet I think, a Real Estate war exist between people who actually buy land and hold it for proffit; here we have Olivia Higuera Aguilar claiming that Munoz papers are false and nobody bothered to ask her por proff; actually she made a formal complain to the Federal Police, who investigated the matter and who found out that the title was real and legal and that Olivia has no title or right or reason and the case was droped by the Federal authorities and anyone who want proff, there is no better place than the Public Registry with cadastral number 3-03-157 and Public regsitry number 340 book 178 in Santa Rosalia, you will find all the legal history incluiding the Federal investigation that finally recognized that the title was legal; even the Predial tax is paid on that property since 1971 to 2008 on Munoz name with no debt.
Now try to find anything there on Olivia's name, nothing, absolutely nothing, she only has a private contract with Ejido La Purisima afecting a piece of land on the Kilometer 94 to 95, but San Buenaventura is on Kilometer 93; she simply is on the wrong place and that is why the Ejido La Purisima droped the lawsuit against Munoz, they are no longer fighting him; now, do you want and American's independent opinion, just ask Mr. Thad Braxton who live in Buenaventura beach like me at thadbrax@yahoo.com , he is one of the people who Olivia claim Munoz took the house from him, but he is still there and not fighting Munoz at all but is being sued by Olivia who want to take his house from him through the Agrarian Tribunal at this very minute.
Here we have a person (Olivia) who acuse exactly of what she is doing, who don't have a single paper sustaining her property rights, acusing a person who have everything legal and who was catched in the act by federal police of selling as food a protected specie.
That is why I claim that there is no balance of eveidence between themat all, all the evidence is in Munoz favor and absolutely no evidence on Olivias favor and don't get me wrong, I will end up paying rent to one or the other, only I already saw all the legal evidence by myself and thorugh my attorney, simply Olivia has no legal case, only a newspaper case or an Internet case.
By the way, she is already out on Bail.
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ramuma53
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[*] posted on 4-15-2009 at 01:05 AM


And sorry about that tripledigitken I understand what you wanted to say and clearly know you will not buy illegal turtle now, but we are always claiming that there is no justice for Americans in Mexico but I think this show that there is justice in Mexico, not strong enought to hold her in jail for long, but I don't think she will have her restaurant for long after this.
Also if you want any proff, just ask Munoz at director@munoz-industries.com , he has always provided everything asked for, with no questions asked.
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[*] posted on 4-15-2009 at 05:43 AM


The hotel is/was totally seperate from the restaurant, in fact there was an ongoing legal feud between the hotel owners and the retaurant owners as to who owned what.
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[*] posted on 4-15-2009 at 06:23 AM


I am not that well versed on the subject of this feud and you (ramuna53) cite court cases supporting your position and land rights. I did a google search and found several articles in Spanish that seem to voice opinions to the contrary as far as the facts surrounding this feud/beach access, etc. That includes a recent interview with the Procuradora Federal de Protección al Ambiente, Maritza Muñoz Vargas.

My guess is there is more grey to this than black or white...



[Edited on 4-15-2009 by BajaGringo]




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[*] posted on 4-15-2009 at 09:29 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Regarding Mark and Olivia. Sometimes good people make bad decisions.


Yes, so true. Because it continues to happen, and was popular in the past, it is the law now and there are Mexican environmental organizations dedicated to protecting the turtle.

We met another gringo in Bahia Asuncion one day who was sharing some pictures with us---one being of the giant turtle out in San Pablo that they were going to be eating that night along with a local family. He did not know it was illegal, but once we explained it to him, he didn't care.

I hope word of the arrest of Olivia, whether right, wrong, set-up or whatever, will cause some to think twice about they are doing.

Diane




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