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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3783
Registered: 2-9-2004
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Yeah - I understand that the Vizcaino fee collection thing is evolving, and it appears they're spending some of the money on beach cleanups. But
don't they have a "big picture" plan? If they spend all the money they get on beach cleanups - village after village - how will they be able to save
enough for the real problem - trash collection and disposal, and maintaining a modern dump and recycle operation - maybe even charging every household
a monthly fee for trash collection and disposal (gee- what a concept); trash cans on the beach, brochures to every household and posters in the
schools about the effects of trash in the ocean and on the beach. In my own neighborhood, we have canyon cleanups every month - has been going on for
years.
The source of the problem is not addressed: the local citizens are the offenders; the tourist is the one who will slap a bandaid on it?
This just makes no sense.
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fishbuck
Banned
Posts: 5318
Registered: 8-31-2006
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Well, maybe after you all pay $5 to have the Biosphere cleaned up then it will be worth a visit.
So, how long is it going to take Jamie to clean up all the trash in the Biosphere? A week? A month? A year? Never?
And shouldn't the Mexican government being picking up trash and making dump sites etc...?
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13033
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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the biosphere reserve IS the mexican government.
Juan has a good suggestion that perhaps Jaime should join this board and explain about the new system and answer some of the legitimate questions
himself...juan said he will ask him if it is OK to post his email address too in case someone wants to ask him privately.
it would be helpful to send your comments and concerns directly to the Reserve office too. I understand as of today, they have a new director Biól.
Mario Alberto Rodríguez Rodríguez and the Reserve email is
vizcaino@conanp.gob.mx and mrrodrig@conanp.gob.mx
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fishbuck
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"the biosphere reserve IS the mexican government."
Shouldn't they be using their own money to clean up the Biophere?
But as I posted earlier a "Biosphere Reserve" is a designation granted to an area by Unesco (United Nation).
There are 533 "Biosphere Reserves" approved by the UN all over the world.
[Edited on 6-29-2009 by fishbuck]
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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fishbuck
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Posts: 5318
Registered: 8-31-2006
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A biosphere reserve is an international conservation designation given by UNESCO under its Programme on Man and the Biosphere (MAB). The World Network
of Biosphere Reserves is the collection of all 533 biosphere reserves in 107 countries (as of May, 2009).[1]
According to “The Statutory Framework of the World Network of Biosphere Reserves,” biosphere reserves are created “to promote and demonstrate a
balanced relationship between humans and the biosphere.” Under article 4, biosphere reserves must “encompass a mosaic of ecological systems,” and thus
consist of combinations of terrestrial, coastal, or marine ecosystems.
Through appropriate zoning and management, the conservation of these ecosystems and their biodiversity is sought to be maintained.
I didn't see anything about charging visitors for local social programs and paying locals to pick up their own trash.
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
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Hey Bucky-
It's not about what they do with the money or the money at all. I just want to know who needs to pay and for what activities? Seems like anyone
including those that live in the Biosphere should contribute. But my opinion really doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things. Ni modo.
It would be great if Jaime came aboard Baja Nomad. I think he would be a great asset myself and he could clarify things a bit.
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fishbuck
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Registered: 8-31-2006
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http://www.rmrs.nau.edu/USAMAB/MAB_web_documents/statframe.h...
This explains what a "Biosphere Reserve" is suppose to be.
I'm guessing that Mexico had to submit a management plan that was approved by the UN.
Also, the designation must be reviewed for renewal every ten years. And there is a possibility of "delisting".
So, if someone is really good at research they should be able to find Mexico's Unesco approved management plan for the Vizcaino Biosphere Reserve
somewhere. I'm sure it is a public document.
[Edited on 6-29-2009 by fishbuck]
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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fishbuck
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Posts: 5318
Registered: 8-31-2006
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UNESCO Office in Mexico
National Office to Mexico in the Central America Cluster.
Director: Mrs Katherine Grigsby
Administrative Officer a.i.: Mr Grégory Perotin
Documentation Centre: http://portal.unesco.org
http://www.unescomexico.org/
E-mail address: mexico@unesco.org
Work Phone: (00) (52) (55) 36011650
Fax: (00) (52) (55) 52806214
Address
Pte Masaryk n.° 526, 3er piso, Colonia Polanco Mexico City
Mexico
[Edited on 6-30-2009 by fishbuck]
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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dtbushpilot
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3288
Registered: 1-11-2007
Location: Buena Vista BCS
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Mood: Tranquilo
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I think it would be a great idea on the surface for Jaime to answer questions directly on the board but a real bad idea in reality. How long would it
take for the "bloodletting" to begin. Jaime probably doesn't have the same command of the English language that those who would criticize him and all
that he works for and he may not understand why he would be insulted for the work he is trying to do. He probably doesn't understand that in our
culture it's OK to be rude and offensive to those who are just trying to do their job to the best of their abilities.
Shari, I think it would be in every one's best interest to bring Jaime up to speed about what to expect from some of our Nomad brethren before he
makes himself available to be the object of ridicule in a public forum.
It really sucks for all of us that a few bad apples spoil things for the rest of us.....dt
"Life is tough".....It's even tougher if you're stupid.....
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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while I understand the frustration of some of these posts regarding the fees, from where I personally stand I must comply or they shut me down.
Howrver I do see these things as an opportunity to make some much needed changes and that is what I intend to do. It will take time and I am thinking
along the lines of the century bike tours I used to make way back when. In the beginning of the ride I had to take it easy and get my mind into a
trance of some sort to keep me going for the 100 miles, during the middle of the tour the riders along with me, we'd would encourage each other to
continue and it sure helped, then at the end we all seemed to get back into the trance and use only the amount of energy necessary to complete the
tour. No weaving unnecessarily from the track no more pedaling more than will get me over that line, its a long haul. That's the same kind of thing
that I have to prepare myself for and at the same time offer serious morale and encouragement. I'll do my damndest. most here are familiar with
Mexico's hurdles or at least in part so bear with us because we need to get past these to make these changes it is a lot of work.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64525
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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It is not the paying of a permit that is the problem... It is a problem if the money is for the pockets of bureaucrats... or whoever is collecting the
fee.
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fishbuck
Banned
Posts: 5318
Registered: 8-31-2006
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I think we all understand that the different vendors must comply or be shut down.
And that this thread was really sort of a celebration announcement that Jaun and Shari have all the required permits etc. to run their business.
Obviously that is a good thing.
But if you can't see the injustice of charging visitors to a United Nations designated "Biosphere Reserve" to pick up trash then you are really
missing something.
As I was saying earlier. When I fish in B.A. it costs me about $500-$1000. And I believe I pay about 10% tax on everything. So that's $$50-100 tax
money already. And now you want another $5 for your phony Biosphere to pick up trash?
To support Shari and and maybe Pam''s business's I will be happy to pay the $5.
But this Biosphere is totally fake and just an excuse to charge visitors another $5. You get exactly zero for your $5.
That's what all the fuss is about.
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 17386
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
It is not the paying of a permit that is the problem... It is a problem if the money is for the pockets of bureaucrats... or whoever is collecting the
fee. |
i think the problem is that most gringos expect everything in mexico to be free or pennies on the dollar relative to US prices. they want their
vacation or retirement financed by low wages, low standard of living and low/no government fees.
quit bellyaching about how other country chooses to spend its collected fees and get out there and enjoy the designated protected areas. if you don't
like the daily fee, then buy a passport. i think places like SI lagoon, Viscaino and SPM are great, and i don't mind spending approx $26/year for a
passport. i think it's a bargain.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Thought it would be a very long time before I would agree with the goat on anything much but he's right and Joe Buck is just a cheap suit in the guise
of a newly informed Cabo Wabo Ron. Fish, keep telling us how much you pay and how wrong it is and how willing you are to do it anyway and then send us
some international bable. Fish, stay high above it all. Real high. You don't belong down here.
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fishbuck
Banned
Posts: 5318
Registered: 8-31-2006
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Sure birdbrain whatever you say.
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3783
Registered: 2-9-2004
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Send your questions and concerns directly to:
E-mail address: mexico@unesco.org
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Natalie Ann
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2819
Registered: 8-22-2003
Location: Berkeley
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I, too, find myself agreeing with the Goat. $26 per year admittance to all Mexican biosphere regions. I pay way more than that each year in US
National and State Park fees, as well as use fees for private areas. Never once have I put up a fuss about how those fees are used. Yep, I'm sure
it's all accounted for.... and likely it includes payments for services I might disagree with.
Far as trash pick-up.... our park fees include trash pick up no matter if it's local or tourist trash. Trash seems to be a part of the human
condition. Some litter, some pick up. I always carry a bag and collect trash as I walk natural areas.
nena
Be yourself, everyone else is already taken.
.....Oscar Wilde
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ElFaro
Nomad
Posts: 231
Registered: 9-16-2007
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Hey I don't agree at all with mtn goat or anyone else on this thread who compares fees charged by US Nat'l Parks and State Parks with this UN
Biosphere Reserve Fee. Firstly, towns and villages don't exist in US Nat'l Parks and State Parks do they? I haven't seen any lately. And please don't
compare the village in Yosemite...those are mostly park employees. Secondly, the UN should be abolished and kicked out of the US...alot of us don't
recognize them as representing anything of value. Thirdly, anytime a govt. entity starts charging a fee they always start nominal and then
eventually increase that fee. It may be $5 now but what will it be in 5 yrs? $10, $20 ? And these type of fees have a ratcheting effect... they only
go in one direction...up and never down. This puts added pressure on local businesses who have to control costs in order to earn a profit. OK so a
year pass is $26 to all Biosphere Reserves? It only pays if you are in the BRs more than 5 days per year. If I go to Ascension for a week...$20 for
visa for 6 mo., $40 for fishing lic., $250/yr veh. ins., $10-25/day camping fee, $12/yr passport fee, $25 toll fees, now add $26 for BRs pass. I know
I'm forgetting some fees in here. Now who gets burned in this fee scheme? the small business owner in Ascension who is at the end of the line. You
see...all you retired school teachers and active school teachers on this board who don't understand how the private sector works seem to miss this
whole point. These gov't fees screw the small business owner!
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Natalie Ann
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2819
Registered: 8-22-2003
Location: Berkeley
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Natalie Ann
I, too, find myself agreeing with the Goat. $26 per year admittance to all Mexican biosphere regions. I pay way more than that each year in US
National and State Park fees, as well as use fees for private areas. Never once have I put up a fuss about how those fees are used. Yep, I'm sure
it's all accounted for.... and likely it includes payments for services I might disagree with.
Far as trash pick-up.... our park fees include trash pick up no matter if it's local or tourist trash. Trash seems to be a part of the human
condition. Some litter, some pick up. I always carry a bag and collect trash as I walk natural areas.
nena |
Since writing this I have reread the thread, talked about it with friends, and after some thought I have to say I was wrong. The situation is not
comparable to our parks or land use fees. Perhaps if everyone - locals and visitors - had to pay the fee...
As I read the posts, it seems that the fee has been in place for whale watch trips and paid trips in the Loreto Marine Sanctuary. That doesn't seem
the same as what's being suggested for Asuncion.... trash pick up and some yet-to-be-defined activities helpful to the land. The program does of
course aspire to more... but as many have asked, what's the plan for working that out.
I'd like to have more specific information and look forward to learning more about this project. But right now I'm inclined to agree with those who
feel this is or may be an unjustified tax on the tourist. The fact that it's "only" $26 per year should not make any difference.
My humble apologies to all those offended by my prior stance.
Oh yeah.... for sure kudos to shari and Juan for gathering the needed paperwork to be taking Nomads fishing once again.
nena
Be yourself, everyone else is already taken.
.....Oscar Wilde
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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I have stayed away from this thread because I really just cannot believe the attitudes of so many. Just a few final comments, and then I will leave
this thread.
It really grew into a Mexican and Mexico bashing thread.
1. Just because it is a part of a Biosphere, the Reserve has the right to charge fees just as they do in Biospheres in the US, and in Central America.
2. It is the call of the Mexicans and THEIR government, not a bunch of tourists or alien residents.
3. Mexicans who live on the Reserve can create projects and request funding by submitting plans to the Reserve.
4. What all those projects are, is NOT our business, it is theirs. Try working with them, not against them. Places like the LA Zoo are working with
the Reserve on the Pronghorn reserve.
5. Not charging locals, or charging locals a WAY lower fee is common in other parts of Mexico and in Central America---have been in Biosphere Parks
in Costa Rica---locals pay a tiny fraction of the fee---same at places like Copan in Honduras.
6. Have been in states in the US where the locals are charged far less for the use of the state parks than are the tourists.
7. Yes, it is not clear when and who else will be charged in the future--- but it is up to them, the Mexican Government and the Reserve to figure
that out.
8. While I am really happy Shari and Juan have all their required permits before the start of the best fishing season, and I know jumping all the
hoops for all the permits, not just the Preserve permits, is expensive, time consuming, and difficult to pin down, the other fishing/tour guides in
town have also needed to jump through the same hoops. It is a part of the changing Baja. And as both Shari and I wrote, the ones more apt to be
hurt are the ones for have for years casually taken out people to fish---no licenses, no permits of ANY kind. That was a part of old Baja many loved.
It may sound like I am totally defending the Reserve and all of its policies, and that is not the point. It would be easier in my mind if everything
was set in stone, but how often in Mexico are rules, regs, and sometimes laws set in stone? I could think a lots of ways I would like to see done
differently. But.......
This thread is the PERFECT example and represents EXTREMELY well the attitude that somehow Baja is and should remain the big play ground for gringos
to use as they see fit with no interference. If something is not defined in gringo terms, and does not suit what they think is proper, then it is
wrong.
Bottom line, is it is Mexican and Mexico bashing---plain and simple. We can all lament the passing of the Old Baja, but then it becomes a
choice---visit and play by their changes and rules, or stay north of the border.
Diane
BTW---I don't like a lot of the changes either.
[Edited on 7-2-2009 by jdtrotter]
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