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oxxo
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by arrowheadOn the other hand, if a person honestly states his personal convictions -whether liberal or conservative, or
even maniacal for some of the posters here -- that is not trolling. Many people here are just using the word "troll" to label anyone they do not agree
with. That is disingenuous. |
Really? I was just using the definition I am most familar with from Wikipedia:
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an
online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal
on-topic discussion.
So I guess it depends on your definition as to who is being disingenuous.
[Edited on 7-9-2009 by oxxo]
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DanO
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As Oxxo notes, according to the almost unassailable source Wikipedia, a troll is defined as follows:
"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an
online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal
on-topic discussion."
Here's more from that entry, for some context:
"The contemporary use of the term is alleged to have first appeared on the internet in the late 1980s, but the earliest known example is from 1991.
It is thought to be a truncation of the phrase trolling for suckers, itself derived from the fishing technique of slowly dragging a bait through
water, known as trolling. The word also evokes the trolls portrayed in Scandinavian folklore and children's tales as they are often obnoxious
creatures bent on mischief and wickedness. The verb "troll" originates from Old French "troller", a hunting term. The noun "troll", however, is an
unrelated Old Norse word for a giant or demon.
The most likely derivation of the word troll can be found in the phrase "trolling for newbies," popularized in the early 1990s in the Usenet group,
alt.folklore.urban (AFU). Commonly, what is meant is a relatively gentle inside joke by veteran users, presenting questions or topics that had been
so overdone that only a new user would respond to them earnestly. For example, a veteran of the group might make a post on the common misconception
that glass flows over time. Long-time readers would both recognize the poster's name and know that the topic had been done to death already, but new
subscribers to the group would not realise, and would thus respond. These types of trolls served as a Shibboleth to identify group insiders. This
definition of trolling, considerably narrower than the modern understanding of the term, was considered a positive contribution. One of the most
notorious AFU trollers, Snopes, went on to create his eponymous urban folklore website.
By the late 1990s, alt.folklore.urban had such heavy traffic and participation that trolling of this sort was frowned upon. Others expanded the term
to include the practice of playing a seriously misinformed or deluded user, even in newsgroups where one was not a regular; these were often attempts
at humor rather than provocation. In such contexts, the noun troll usually referred to an act of trolling, rather than to the author."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We all know what "controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic" means. The more difficult element of the troll to nail down is whether it is
posted "with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion." That sort of
intent is hard to gauge with a new (or faux-new) user, based on just a handful of posts. But when someone who has made many "controversial,
inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic" comments here and has been repeatedly been asked to cool it keeps doing it, one can reasonably infer several
things:
1. Their primary intent is to provoke other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion;
2. They are completely self-absorbed and despite paying lip service to having a "dialogue" don't really give a s**t what anyone else thinks;
3. They are narcissists who long to be the center of attention, whether it's positive or negative, and have found the perfect vehicle to get them
there; or
4. All of the above.
Hey, it's not like that shoe would fit anyone around here.
[Edited on 7-9-2009 by DanO]
\"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.\" -- Frank Zappa
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Skipjack Joe
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"controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic"
There are a number of nomads who think the board is boring and not worth visiting without "controversial and inflammatory" posts. And to some degree I
see their point.
It's like those after school fights we had in junior high. They were great entertainment. In fact, the crowds got so big that sometimes you couldn't
even see what was going on. Me, I was a big chicken. I was afraid they'd turn around and come after me instead.
So that's the fun of it, I guess: a rumble.
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Curt63
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Mood: Fish tacos and Tecate
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Skipjack, you nailed it ..... Junior High entertainment.
No worries
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toneart
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Intent, tone and style
usually determines whether the other person will accept the interchange as a welcome debate.
In an online forum most of us use an avatar. Many of us will reveal our names and where we live.
There are a very few who hide behind their avatars as cowards and flame away with insults. Their agenda is to "troll" until they get an adverse
response. Their bait is ugly and it is offensive to most people. It is difficult to ignore them. I have taken the bait on occasion. My attitude is "I
can't let them get away with that". It usually contains inflammatory statements that are generally regarded as anti-social. They are Sociopaths and
they delight in upsetting people. When someone takes the bait, then they become the target of personal insults. These few violate the rules of the
forum administrators and eventually get banned. They they reappear under the guise of a newby with a completely different avatar.
This forum is an enterprise that is set up by an individual (Doug). He has the right to set the rules. To administrate the rules is a difficult job.
It involves striking a balance between tolerance and outright rejection of a violator. I hate censorship! I wouldn't like to have to determine what
should be censored. Those who eventually get banned establish a pattern of abuse. Often their writing styles are recognizable. They have been here
before.
Hot buttons in discussions: politics and religion. Attitudes about politics and religion are formed from early childhood and get validated, tolerated
or rejected by life's experience. Proponents of one attitude or another range from people who try to avoid conflict, to moderates to fanatical
ideologues.
As citizens of The United States, we are protected by the First Amendment when it comes to "Free Speech". That Right does carry responsibilities; you
can't yell fire in a theater as a joke. You can't use hate to inflame other like-minded people to commit crimes. And
it doesn't apply to a forum where the owner gets to make the rules.
People like David K. or Dennis are not Trolls in my opinion. They may be driven by their own demons, but I would draw your attention to my
first sentence; " Intent, tone and style usually determines whether the other person will accept the interchange as a welcome debate." I believe that,
to some, their tone and or style can be abrasive, but I don't think their intent is malicious.
I don't want to single them out exclusively. I am just using them because they have been discussed in the context of Trolls. They have a lot to
offer in this forum and I enjoy their posts, for the most part. Criticism probably won't work. I and others have tried (with David K). I have given up
trying to get him to understand why and how his political interjections are unnecessary and unwanted. Now I just ignore those comments and take from
him what information I can use. Dennis...he still be cool in my opinion.
In conclusion, we Nomads have a lot of similarities; mostly our affinity for Baja. We are all unique individuals and have different levels of
tolerance, education and manner. Most of us belong here in spite of our wide levels of differences.
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oldlady
Banned
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Well done, oh musical one!
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Osprey
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I don't think so. Tony, you are beginning to sound like the "little professor", Gnukiddy, who is intent on summerizing and recapping to us little
people, who need that, to understand the language, the matrix of the forum. We get it. We really do. You do not have to give us the history of how
this forum works or explain how you see its intricacies. Do you really think that after the gazillion opinions expressed and ill-expressed across the
spectrum of this almost unlimited gabfest, we need to know about how you feel we should feel about intent, tone, style or presentation? You might by
our GNUOLDKID.
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Skipjack Joe
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We're gonna have a rumble, tonight ...
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
I don't believe in what you say, but I will defend your RIGHT to speak it... THAT SIR, is the American way!
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Yes, Yes, David!! More, more.
You're feeling it now.
Tell them about Rush Limbaugh. I love that part. I always look forward to it.
Can't you just feel the electricity?!
It's gonna be goood.
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k-rico
Super Nomad
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Location: Playas de Tijuana
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
The missing fact is: my 'political comments' are ALWAYS in response to somebody who posted some socialist/ leftist/ liberal or anti American
propaganda... I offered ANOTHER point of view, that's all.
Keep the leftist politics off Nomad, and those of us who value freedom will have no reason to post our views, for balance. You don't like
conservative, traditional American values? Then don't post your big government/ less freedom stuff. Otherwise, don't get cranky over some equal time
from us.
Why are the lefties so fearful of other opinions, so people can make an intelligent decision??? The 'fairness doctrain' is just an example of how they
want to shut down the conservative talk radio programs... that are already in balance to all the pro-Obama media (ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, PBS, New
York Times, etc. etc.)... They want it all and the ending of free speech is what they seek.
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Wow!! David K at his best. Amazing.
[Edited on 7-10-2009 by k-rico]
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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The entertainment factor sure hasn't changed.
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Hook
Elite Nomad
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Location: Sonora
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It would make things much easier if we could get past the definitions of trolls and just have Doug identify who the offending parties are. Hey, maybe
I am one. I honestly dont know.
I mean, the thread on not feeding the trolls is digressing into something that looks a lot like the usual Nomad thread of late.
Reminds me of the California Legislature. Lots of verbage but no action.
How bout a poll?????????????
[Edited on 7-10-2009 by Hook]
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Timo1
Senior Nomad
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After reading all this crap and trying to figure it all out...
I think I'm guilty
Hi....my name is Timo and I think I might be a troll
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 17294
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Art, sorry but you missed one bit of fact with this little remark about how you and others have tried to 're-educate' me:
"I and others have tried (with David K). I have given up trying to get him to understand why and how his political interjections are unnecessary and
unwanted."
The missing fact is: my 'political comments' are ALWAYS in response to somebody who posted some socialist/ leftist/ liberal or anti American
propaganda... I offered ANOTHER point of view, that's all.
Keep the leftist politics off Nomad, and those of us who value freedom will have no reason to post our views, for balance. You don't like
conservative, traditional American values? Then don't post your big government/ less freedom stuff. Otherwise, don't get cranky over some equal time
from us.
Why are the lefties so fearful of other opinions, so people can make an intelligent decision??? The 'fairness doctrain' is just an example of how they
want to shut down the conservative talk radio programs... that are already in balance to all the pro-Obama media (ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, PBS, New
York Times, etc. etc.)... They want it all and the ending of free speech is what they seek.
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You go, girl!! 
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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Mood: Skeptical
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
I don't think so. Tony, you are beginning to sound like the "little professor", Gnukiddy, who is intent on summerizing and recapping to us little
people, who need that, to understand the language, the matrix of the forum. We get it. We really do. You do not have to give us the history of how
this forum works or explain how you see its intricacies. Do you really think that after the gazillion opinions expressed and ill-expressed across the
spectrum of this almost unlimited gabfest, we need to know about how you feel we should feel about intent, tone, style or presentation? You might by
our GNUOLDKID. |
That's fine, Osprey. My perspective is what I have to offer. You don't have to agree. It is not my intention to speak down to you. If you think you
speak for everyone on the forum go ahead and tell us how your opinion is superior, which is what I think you just did.
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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i want mommy
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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Harry Truman said it best. "If you can't handel the heat, jump into a box of cold Pacifico."
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ELINVESTIG8R
Select Nomad
Posts: 15882
Registered: 11-20-2007
Location: Southern California
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Did someone call for a Troll?
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DanO
Super Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Hook
Reminds me of the California Legislature. Lots of verbage but no action. |
Well put.
\"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.\" -- Frank Zappa
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DanO
Super Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
The missing fact is: my 'political comments' are ALWAYS in response to somebody who posted some socialist/ leftist/ liberal or anti American
propaganda... I offered ANOTHER point of view, that's all.
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David, I like to tell my wife when she accuses me of ALWAYS doing one thing or NEVER doing another, that she should avoid the use of such
superlatives. I am simply not that consistent or perfect. Neither are you. In this very thread, in the 21st post, you posted a political point of
view (our enemies are in Washington). There isn't a single bit of "socialist/ leftist/ liberal or anti American propaganda" in any of the 20 posts
above it. (Apparently, your inner 9-year old got all cranky when Wiley said he doesn't like you -- waaahh!!) Go read it, and then do us all a favor
and cut the "I'm only playing defense" act. This is by far not the only example -- your posts speak for themselves. If you're going to talk the
political talk, quit being a wimp about it and take your lumps instead of pretending you're just a simple gatekeeper defending the fortress of the
board from the advancing yellow hordes. Noboby's buying it.
\"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.\" -- Frank Zappa
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