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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64547
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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I guess it is more expensive for things to be done in the U.S., than in Mexico? 
Does Mexico need a entire government force (like the Border Patrol) to make sure Americans are not sneeking into Mexico or are there illegally, and
draining funds intended for Mexican citizens?
Americans go to Mexico to spend money... The illegal northbound crossers come across to get money!
Someday the tables may turn... until then, that is just reality.
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bajagrouper
Senior Nomad
Posts: 964
Registered: 8-28-2003
Location: Rincon de Guayabitos, Nayarit, Mexico
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Mood: happy and retired
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First the new FMM is not a multiple entry form, the multiple is for the multiple permits you can get using this form, like tourist card,FM2 & FM3
etc.
second nowhere is it written on any Mexican Gov. website that you can not leave the country for a day or less and return and get another 180 day
tourist card or FMM...
Last Nov. I was able to leave Mexico with a auto permit linked to my FMM and re-enter Mexico without problems or questions from imagration...
and David K, the mexican Gov. does not require a person to have a FM3 or FM2 to be property owners.to track home owners...
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I agree with DK. Everything published pointed to the idea that the new forms were designed to allow multiple entries that totaled 180 days per year.
Logic dictated that they were, in part, cracking down on full time residents that just used the tourist visa. But since there was no announcement as
to how one might conveniently trigger a stop to the running time....
Always thought they should have kiosks between the lanes at the border.
Then, there is the question of how reliable and detailed their data base is. Not all that long ago, the agents at SY didn't even have computers.
Recently, I;ve actually had my passort swiped there, similar to what is currently being done at airports in Mexico. My most recent entry, no swipe.
Who knows?? |
I hear the whales song
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64547
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajagrouper
First the new FMM is not a multiple entry form, the multiple is for the multiple permits you can get using this form, like tourist card,FM2 & FM3
etc.
second nowhere is it written on any Mexican Gov. website that you can not leave the country for a day or less and return and get another 180 day
tourist card or FMM...
Last Nov. I was able to leave Mexico with a auto permit linked to my FMM and re-enter Mexico without problems or questions from imagration...
and David K, the mexican Gov. does not require a person to have a FM3 or FM2 to be property owners.to track home owners...
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I agree with DK. Everything published pointed to the idea that the new forms were designed to allow multiple entries that totaled 180 days per year.
Logic dictated that they were, in part, cracking down on full time residents that just used the tourist visa. But since there was no announcement as
to how one might conveniently trigger a stop to the running time....
Always thought they should have kiosks between the lanes at the border.
Then, there is the question of how reliable and detailed their data base is. Not all that long ago, the agents at SY didn't even have computers.
Recently, I;ve actually had my passort swiped there, similar to what is currently being done at airports in Mexico. My most recent entry, no swipe.
Who knows?? |
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Go for it... let us know what happens when someone sets up camp on your front porch and says this is their grandfather's ranch land.
Sure, nobody that sells you a house in Baja needs to see your FM-3... but if you want legal protection, you have no rights to property you claim as
yours as long as you are not in possesion of the correct visa for your activity in Mexico.
I am not wanting to argue, I just don't want you to lose your investment by not being legal... I wish you well!
If you have a home on land you lease and you go to it over and over, you are not a 'Tourist', you are a part time resident.
Tourists are people on a vacation and travel in Mexico to one or more places for a limited time, and when their vacation is over, they leave nothing
of theirs behind... FMM (formerly FM-T) Tourist Card Holders.
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bajagrouper
Senior Nomad
Posts: 964
Registered: 8-28-2003
Location: Rincon de Guayabitos, Nayarit, Mexico
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Mood: happy and retired
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Having an FMM gives you all the rights as someone with an FM3 or FM2 for owning property in Mexico, when buying by first piece of property( with an
FMT) in the coastal restricted zone I had to apply with the Dept. of Foreign Affairs for permission and received it...I just bought a 12 acre ranch
outside the restricted zone on an FMM and again was granted permission....DavidK, Where in Mexico do you own land and what was your experence?
I hear the whales song
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64547
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajagrouper
Having an FMM gives you all the rights as someone with an FM3 or FM2 for owning property in Mexico, when buying by first piece of property( with an
FMT) in the coastal restricted zone I had to apply with the Dept. of Foreign Affairs for permission and received it...I just bought a 12 acre ranch
outside the restricted zone on an FMM and again was granted permission....DavidK, Where in Mexico do you own land and what was your experence?
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I don't, as a 'tourist' I wouldn't be legal. Please allow the many Nomads who have gone to the effort to have legal status for their activity answer
you.
I don't doubt for a minute you own property in Mexico... I do doubt that you have as much security with keeping it as someone who has obtained an
FM-3, 2 or is working towards Mexican citizenship.
Again, I wish no ill towards you... I would be very sad if Migra found you and removed you from your home, and then someone born in Mexico decided
they like your home and moved in.
Think about it... research it... If you are correct and the FM-3 is not needed... there are a lot of Nomads who have paid a lot of money and time to
obtain them for doing what you are.
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bajagrouper
Senior Nomad
Posts: 964
Registered: 8-28-2003
Location: Rincon de Guayabitos, Nayarit, Mexico
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Mood: happy and retired
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David, I know you know quite a bit about Baja, I have only been visiting Baja since 1948...But this is one subject( owning property in Mexico) you
know nothing about!!
I hear the whales song
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
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Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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Would be nice to see the "official' version of the regulations, but this is Mexico.
My common sense understanding is that the FMM/FMT is for "tourist/vacation" purposes, the FM2/3 are for more "permanent or semi-permant"
residents...........
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bajagrouper
Senior Nomad
Posts: 964
Registered: 8-28-2003
Location: Rincon de Guayabitos, Nayarit, Mexico
Member Is Offline
Mood: happy and retired
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Besides a passport, and money all you need to buy a house,condo or timeshare in Mexico is to be in the country legally and an FMM serves that
purpose...
| Quote: | Originally posted by morgaine7
There are official laws and regulations, but they're buried in long documents of Spanish legalese like the Ley General de Población, etc. My
understanding:
FMM only: Short-term visits, less than 180 days, for various purposes (business, study, tourism, and more)
FM3: Long-term visits, more than 180 days, for various purposes
FM2: Residence
Inmigrado: Permanent residence
Like Bajagrouper, I bought my property while here on an FMT, which was accepted by the SRE and the notario. The FMT number is even entered in my
fideicomiso, I believe to show that I was legally in the country when I signed the contract. Before moving here, I got an FM3 and now have an
FM2. I do strongly agree with DK that if you're living here even part time, it's best to have an FM3/FM2. You normally need it to open a bank account,
get a driver's license, and do other residence-type transactions. And now that it's a card, it's a very handy wallet-sized photo ID in Spanish that
anyone can read.
Kate
PS - The FM2 card says (in Spanish and English) "The owner of this document is a resident in Mexico". As I recall, the FM3 card says "...
temporary resident ..." or something to that effect.
[Edited on 1-9-2011 by morgaine7] |
I hear the whales song
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64547
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajagrouper
Besides a passport, and money all you need to buy a house,condo or timeshare in Mexico is to be in the country legally and an FMM serves that
purpose...
| Quote: | Originally posted by morgaine7
There are official laws and regulations, but they're buried in long documents of Spanish legalese like the Ley General de Población, etc. My
understanding:
FMM only: Short-term visits, less than 180 days, for various purposes (business, study, tourism, and more)
FM3: Long-term visits, more than 180 days, for various purposes
FM2: Residence
Inmigrado: Permanent residence
Like Bajagrouper, I bought my property while here on an FMT, which was accepted by the SRE and the notario. The FMT number is even entered in my
fideicomiso, I believe to show that I was legally in the country when I signed the contract. Before moving here, I got an FM3 and now have an
FM2. I do strongly agree with DK that if you're living here even part time, it's best to have an FM3/FM2. You normally need it to open a bank account,
get a driver's license, and do other residence-type transactions. And now that it's a card, it's a very handy wallet-sized photo ID in Spanish that
anyone can read.
Kate
PS - The FM2 card says (in Spanish and English) "The owner of this document is a resident in Mexico". As I recall, the FM3 card says "...
temporary resident ..." or something to that effect.
[Edited on 1-9-2011 by morgaine7] |
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Yes, I agree that you are in the country legally (for up to 180 days out of the year).
I don't think you have a legal case for maintaining personal or real property in Mexico as a tourist, however. I am not an expert in this, you are
correct... but I have been reading Baja Nomad for 8 years and Amigos de Baja before that... so I am just sharing what I have read and what my friends
in Baja with property also have said.
If an FM-3 or 2 isn't needed... why do so many go through that process???
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BajaRob
Senior Nomad
Posts: 722
Registered: 9-15-2003
Location: Bahia Santa Maria y Newport Or
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Mood: Life is good
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Geeze Grouper
Rincon de Guayabitos is one of my favorite places here but mis-information sucks. We now have Immigrado status and are well aware that FM-2 or FM-3
documents are required to lease/own property here. If you don't get it, don't post it.
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longlegsinlapaz
Super Nomad
Posts: 1685
Registered: 11-18-2005
Location: La Paz
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by bajagrouper
Having an FMM gives you all the rights as someone with an FM3 or FM2 for owning property in Mexico, when buying by first piece of property( with an
FMT) in the coastal restricted zone I had to apply with the Dept. of Foreign Affairs for permission and received it...I just bought a 12 acre ranch
outside the restricted zone on an FMM and again was granted permission....DavidK, Where in Mexico do you own land and what was your experence?
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| Quote: | | I don't, as a 'tourist' I wouldn't be legal. |
Please cite specific Mexican laws/regulations where you
obtained this information. | Quote: | | Please allow the many Nomads who have gone to the effort to have legal status for their activity answer you. |
EXCELLENT ADVICE!!!
| Quote: | I don't doubt for a minute you own property in Mexico... I do doubt that you have as much security with keeping it as someone who has obtained an
FM-3, 2 or is working towards Mexican citizenship.
Again, I wish no ill towards you... I would be very sad if Migra found you and removed you from your home, and then someone born in Mexico decided
they like your home and moved in. |
Migra doesn't have to "find" him, he presents himself at their office each & every time he gets an FMM, He also presents himself at the bank every
year when he pays his annual fideicomiso fees. Ditto for paying his annual property taxes. If this were illegal as you have clearly stated you
believe it to be, don't you think that at least one of the agencies involved in his property ownership would have thrown out a red flag?
I agree with Morgaine7 that if a true legal dispute were to arise, that anyone would be in a more secure legal position with resident status rather
than tourist status....but that's governed by different laws than land acquisition laws.
| Quote: | | Think about it... research it... If you are correct and the FM-3 is not needed... there are a lot of Nomads who have paid a lot of money and time to
obtain them for doing what you are. |
If you honestly believe that property ownership is the only reason to
get an FM3 or FM2, then it's you who needs to do some research rather than pontificating on the legalities of something you have absolutely no
personal experience with. Those who have completed the process have already done the research & I'd place my money on personal experience over
rumor & unfounded speculation every time!
By the way, for one who appears to want to act responsibly & abide by the laws as a guest in this country, you have done the research about the
legalities of things like driving on the beach & taking clams....haven't you? Oh, that's right! You promote highly selective adherence to the
laws of this country! |
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Brian L
Nomad
Posts: 250
Registered: 6-21-2010
Location: Alpine, CA
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Whether David is right or wrong, and he admits he isn't sure, his main point is that owning land and possibly not being there legally should be
something to worry about. That is his main point. It doesn't sound like he is trying to judge, rather express concern about losing property.
Brian
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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Thanks longlegs for bringing common sense to this post,
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64547
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Where did I say property ownership was the only reason???
In the name of friendship between Nomads... I wouldn't want someone to lose their property because they didn't obtain the proper visa.
This is a discussion of tourist cards and bajagrouper's telling us one isn't needed to own in Mexico... I agree that one isn't needed to BUY in
Mexico... and every Mexican agency you want to hand money to, will take it... It is a matter of keeping the property after you buy it.
Since 'tourists' are people who return home with all of their property at the end of their vacation... I am questioning bajagrouper as to using
'tourist cards' to live part-time in Mexico providing him with any security, should there be legal challanges.
Waiting to also hear why did everyone who has FM-3s who got them ONLY for buying and keeping property feels about their waste of time... (per
bajagrouper).
This is earth-shattering stuff when you consider FM-3s are one of the top subjects here.
Again, for maintaing property in Mexico.
[Edited on 1-9-2011 by David K]
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bajagrouper
Senior Nomad
Posts: 964
Registered: 8-28-2003
Location: Rincon de Guayabitos, Nayarit, Mexico
Member Is Offline
Mood: happy and retired
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DavidK you ask "If an FM-3 or 2 isn't needed... why do so many go through that process???"
There are many reasons folks get FM3s, it may be to:
leave an auto in Mexico
possible tax advantage when selling Real Estate
part of becoming a citizen
or maybe they were told by a Real Estate salesman they need one to increase their profit, remember anyone can sell Real Estate in Mexico...
I hear the whales song
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64547
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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I added clarification above... for holding onto property in Mexico with full protection of the migra law. (period)
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64547
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaRob
Rincon de Guayabitos is one of my favorite places here but mis-information sucks. We now have Immigrado status and are well aware that FM-2 or FM-3
documents are required to lease/own property here. If you don't get it, don't post it. |
This is from someone who knows the law. (period)
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longlegsinlapaz
Super Nomad
Posts: 1685
Registered: 11-18-2005
Location: La Paz
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| Quote: | | Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Where did I say property ownership was the only reason??? |
IMO, you strongly implied it here....if I mis-read
your words, please clarify what you meant to say:
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K posted on 1-8-2011 at 07:46 PM
.......Think about it... research it... If you are correct and the FM-3 is not needed... there are a lot of Nomads who have paid a lot of
money and time to obtain them for doing what you are. |
In the name of friendship between Nomads... I wouldn't want someone to lose their property because they didn't obtain the proper visa.
This is a discussion of tourist cards and bajagrouper's telling us one isn't needed to own in Mexico... I agree that one isn't needed to BUY in
Mexico... and every Mexican agency you want to hand money to, will take it... It is a matter of keeping the property after you buy it.
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How do you BUY property without OWNing it....or OWN property without BUYing it?? As a long time permanent resident, I find your statement "and every
Mexican agency you want to hand money to, will take it" to be extremely offensive, possibly slanderous & unequivocally untruthful. It's
irresponsible statements like yours that cause Norte Americanos to be viewed negatively.
Please post bajagrouper's actual words using the quote box function showing where he said this because nowhere in this thread can I find where
bajagrouper said "tourist cards"...."isn't needed to own in Mexico". I believe he's said the exact opposite of what you are crediting him with
saying....that he has bought property with a tourist card (FMM, formerly FMT).
| Quote: | Since 'tourists' are people who return home with all of their property at the end of their vacation... I am questioning bajagrouper as to using
'tourist cards' to live part-time in Mexico providing him with any security, should there be legal challanges.
Waiting to also hear why did everyone who has FM-3s who got them ONLY for buying and keeping property feels about their waste of time... (per
bajagrouper). |
Again, please post bajagrouper's actual words using the quote box function showing where he said "everyone who has FM-3s who got them ONLY for buying
and keeping property feels about their waste of time..." because this is yet another quote you credit to Bajagrouper that I can't find in his posts.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David KThis is earth-shattering stuff when you consider FM-3s are one of the top subjects here.
Again, for maintaing property in Mexico.
[Edited on 1-9-2011 by David K] |
On edit: I'm not sure what happened to a portion of my original post....I
must have gotten overzealous in my cleaning up of my post prior to hitting the post button & accidentally deleted a large portion of my own
response. For that I apologize. What I'd written previously that evidently fell
on the cutting room floor....
Like Morgaine7, I bought my first property in La Paz in 1998 while here on vacation on an FMT & prior to the time I made my permanent move here in
1999, I’d obtained my FM3. Many of my acquaintances here also bought initially while in the country on an FMT. I can’t quote laws/statutes....I’m
speaking from my own personal experience & that of many, many friends, neighbors & acquaintances in the La Paz & other parts of BCS who
did indeed buy property (both improved & unimproved) while holding an FMT/FMM. All those purchases were considered legal transactions which
withstood scrutiny of the multitude of federal & local agencies involved, as well as the fideicomiso acquisition, Notario & bank processes.
If there was anything illegal about buying with an FMT, all of these deals would never have closed. They wouldn’t have all passed the scrutiny of
that many different governmental agencies & companies involved in the process.
In over 11 years here, I have never heard of a purchase not closing because the buyer was in the country on an FMT/FMM visa.
In my case, I sold that first property after 5 years & my subsequent sales transaction closed 6.5 years ago with nary a glitch or a raised
eyebrow....to a person who was here on an FMT.
I’m one of the straightest, by-the-book people I know, & I'd never knowingly violate the laws of my adopted country....I consider myself a guest
here, even after the length of time I've been here....I have way too much to lose. Everything I own, my entire net worth is here. I’d never knowing
do anything to possibly jeopardize either my assets or my legal status to remain here for the rest of my days.
[Edited on 1-10-2011 by longlegsinlapaz]
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Bajahowodd
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Posts: 9274
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Location: Disneyland Adjacent and anywhere in Baja
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I know this may seem like a narrow issue, but as I wandered through the posts here, a question arose in my mind. A bank will grant and issue a
fideicomiso on a tourist visa, but won't let you open an account???
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longlegsinlapaz
Super Nomad
Posts: 1685
Registered: 11-18-2005
Location: La Paz
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaRob
Rincon de Guayabitos is one of my favorite places here but mis-information sucks. We now have Immigrado status and are well aware that FM-2 or FM-3
documents are required to lease/own property here. If you don't get it, don't post it. |
This is from someone who knows the law. (period) |
Please note, that this discussion has involved property purchases both in mainland Mexico & Baja. I have no personal experience or knowledge of
how things happen in mainland Mexico, but would assume that because Federal agencies & laws are involved that the same legalities would be
governing transactions in both areas....but that's just an assumption on my part.
No disrespect whatsoever to Bajarob....I don't know him, have no idea what personal experiences or laws he's basing his statement on....but my
personal experience & the personal experiences of many, many acquaintances in this area is that we did indeed buy property (both improved &
unimproved) holding an FMT/FMM & those were legal transactions which withstood scrutiny of all federal & local agencies involved, as well as
Notario & bank. In my case, I sold that first property after 5 years & that transaction closed 6.5 years ago with nary a raised eyebrow.
If someone can actually find & post the federal laws or statutes which say that land purchase by non-Mexican require an FM3 or FM2, then I'll do
my best to figure out the proper authorities to turn myself into....but I can tell you right off, it wouldn't be migra/INM, since their only concern
is that I'm in the country legally.
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