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dtbushpilot
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Islandbuilder, X2.....dt
Why is it that we find the need to blame someone or some organization (religous, political, ethnic, whatever) for our shortcomings? The world is a
tough place to live, always has been, always will be....as long as people are here....
[Edited on 3-15-2012 by dtbushpilot]
"Life is tough".....It's even tougher if you're stupid.....
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David K
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Islandbuilder... wow, very well said!
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vgabndo
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Islandbuilder
If you don't think some people with very specific beliefs don't think they are better than their neighbors, just come out as an atheist.
Are some people better than others? I submit that 150 years after Darwin and Wallace proposed a new theory for the origin of species, contrary to the
Christian Bible, that man is in a much better position to judge the relative merits of the two theories.
I could go into a lot of detail, but I think these facts are significant. The National Academy of Sciences is composed of one of the most astounding
collections of human minds ever assembled. They are relentlessly competitive in challenging the findings of their peers, and digging deeper every day
for the truth.
Between 85% and 95% of the members of the NAS do not believe in any god or life after death. There are 600 Nobel laureates among the membership. With
most every new remarkable scientific discovery, comes more proof that Darwin got it right. I would describe these as good people with good motives,
and the common decency to publish their proofs.
On the other hand, I am first expected to believe that everything that exists was created in a week 5700 years ago. I don't really need to go any
farther. That foolishness has been as roundly disproved as the claim that the Sun orbits the Earth, yet millions of my neighbors continue to
dutifully, unquestioningly worship the myth.
Here's where it gets pernicious.
The Bible tells Christians that they should hold dominion over the world. People who disagree will learn the the lamb of God wields a mighty bloody
sword.
I take particular offense to the Christian conservatives today who, as part of Dominionism, are doing all they can to meddle in the private
reproductive decisions OWNED by every woman. Not a zygote is to be lost! Yet, the moment that innocent perfect being is born it is infected by its
Christian parents with a belief that nothing it can humanly do in its life can ever save it from eternal torment, because it was born with Satan's own
original sin because someone disobeyed a talking snake. They will then go about preparing to be "raptured" into the sky at any moment because they
are special.
I submit that this attitude is likely to result in a citizen with less interest in planning for the future. This is a citizen with no need or desire
to compromise with those whom they disagree. They have a history of believing what they're told without question, and their leaders put one church
above country. When they got the government to do that, they got a problem with me.
This is the twenty-first century, the chosen people have had the same 150 years to come up with a talking snake. Even with the finest level of divine
guidance there is no proof of any of the extraordinary claims.
I feel I have an enlightened self interest to live in a culture where people are first responsible, and if not, accountable. That they be truthful,
direct, concise, and clear in their communication. That they be committed to not harming others. These are my values, and I am proud to contrast them
with the Christian system which can be faulted for even mentioning the "moral" values of scapegoating. The devil made me do it. (sure) and Jesus died
for my sins. If there is anything else to pay, it will be collected after I'm dead.
CIVIL justice has more people locked up in one nation under God, than any other civilized nation. Seven times more than China. Think about it.
My conclusion is that some people are "better" than others....sorry.
(Doug, isn't there some "highjack" corner we could go when we're having fun?)
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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dtbushpilot
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Ok, so between 85 and 95% of the members of the NAS (let's just call it 90%) don't believe in God or life after death....there are 600 Nobel laureates
in this group (a group comprised of folks such as Barak Obama who won the Nobel Peace Prize for no apparent reason). That leaves 10% of those bright
folks as well as the vast majority of the human race that believes in some form of God and life after death....
I guess that proves it, we're on our own....let's all quit clinging to our "guns and religion" and get behind the "new political order" that awaits
us......
Sorry for the hijack of the hijack, just sayin.....dt
vgabndo, I'm amused by your "tag lines" on your post, my tag line sums up my feelings of your observations.....
[Edited on 3-16-2012 by dtbushpilot]
"Life is tough".....It's even tougher if you're stupid.....
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vgabndo
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DT, I think you miss the international significance of Obama being given the Peace Prize. That was the world saying to America: "Congratulations and
thank you for throwing out George Bush and his people, that was a hugely peaceful move."
The fact that so many people believe in an imaginary friend in the sky has been thoroughly investigated by science. I don't know of any organic or
physical science explanation, but obviously psychology defines the thinking of people who deny all credible evidence to hold a secure belief in, for
instance: 80 million years of dinosaurs lived at most a day or two, and big flood was sent by God, and all the animals on the planet that wouldn't fit
on a wooden boat drown and their bones turned into stone in 5700 years.
Maybe if one is lucky enough to get through their first few irreversibly formative years without being made to go to Sunday School for indoctrination,
as was my good fortune, it is a little easier to see the foolishness of magical thinking.
I am frequently amazed that otherwise competent people will suddenly shamelessly admit to me that they believe in talking snakes! I have been trying
not to judge them, but with schools everywhere standing ready to help them understand what we've learned about the earth, they refuse to take the
offer. So I judge.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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Barry A.
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Therein lies the problem, Vag---------"you judge"--------just like the Christian (etc) zealots you condemn, "you judge"..
As an Agnostic, I try only to "judge" the zealots on both sides, and wonder why they are what they are, and why they feel a need to bash others that
don't agee with them, or worse legislate against their interests.
I think we can travel a higher road than that of "judging" others "beliefs", or at least stay out of legislating against them.
But of course that is just my opinion and conclusion.
Barry
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Islandbuilder
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Well, I think it's important to make a passing acknowledgment of the unintended but blatant hijack of what was in it's own right, an interesting
thread!
Vagabundo, about all I can say is that I read in your posts a noteworthy quantity of faith, no one has produced, as you said, a talking snake. But
it's also true that no one has produced an amino acid (let alone a Bach or DaVinci) out of sea water, hydrogen and lightning. None of us are basing
our beliefs completely on scientific facts, faith plays a part.
You have crafted some pretty traditional Christian strawman arguments, and knocked them down just like rationalists have done for centuries. None of
the beliefs you assign to Christians are mine, but I understand your points, and see no need to argue them.
My main point in getting involved in a discussion that has nothing to do with why I frequent this fine site, is that some comments made regarding the
lethal consequences of religious belief were simply not true. Human conflicts have claimed millions of lives over the millennia, and some of those
have most certainly been triggered by religious differences, but the far greater body count is fairly blamed on wars brought on by political
differences.
My concern with the idea that some people feel either intellectually, morally or ethnically superior to others (a condition that can probably be
blamed for ALL human conflicts) is that whenever one group has decided it is morally acceptable to malign another group based on superficial criteria,
that maligned group usually ends up lined up at the edge of a ditch that they just dug, waiting for the "superior beings" to put them into the ditch
with a bullet.
Interesting that someone would find an objection to the idea that our communities would work far better if we approached one another with respect
(without mocking their beliefs, for example) and in an attitude of humility (because it is obviously true that none of us know everything, and we all
mess up sometimes even when we're trying to do good).
I am willing to make this my last post on this hijack, so I will give others the last word. This has been a great conversation, thank you all!
[Edited on 3-17-2012 by Islandbuilder]
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vgabndo
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Barry, I might agree except that at least from the stand point of legislation it HAS been done and I and 30 million others are NOT represented by the
National Motto or the Pledge to the flag.
These people have imposed their god on me all my life.
If it is real, a god should be able to let us know somehow; like simultaneous e-mails to everyone on earth in their own language.
Certainly SOMEONE has prayed for proof to throw at us!
You got real heavy on the JUDGE. I use that word very advisedly and in this case to judge that in general terms (rational vs god driven) some people
ARE "better" than others.
This is just common discrimination in my mind. If you need cancer surgery do you call a urologist or someone who claims they can heal you by touching
you while talking to their imaginary friend in the sky.  Thanks for the
conversation.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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David K
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I am enjoying your thoughts on this, Islandbuilder! In reality, that is very much what I believe... I just don't have the patience to post and debate
with those here I know would love to challange me... I find slinging some mud much easier (but in a friendly way, naturally)!
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David K
Honored Nomad
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Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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| Quote: | Originally posted by vgabndo
Barry, I might agree except that at least from the stand point of legislation it HAS been done and I and 30 million others are NOT represented by the
National Motto or the Pledge to the flag.
These people have imposed their god on me all my life.
If it is real, a god should be able to let us know somehow; like simultaneous e-mails to everyone on earth in their own language.
Certainly SOMEONE has prayed for proof to throw at us!
You got real heavy on the JUDGE. I use that word very advisedly and in this case to judge that in general terms (rational vs god driven) some people
ARE "better" than others.
This is just common discrimination in my mind. If you need cancer surgery do you call a urologist or someone who claims they can heal you by touching
you while talking to their imaginary friend in the sky. Thanks for the
conversation. |
Perry, isn't a 'thing' like this enough proof?:
(Photo taken by Russ, posted on Baja Nomad Dec. 20, 2011)
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